EPTMeta Knight banned from Smash Bros Brawl - Page 5
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10302 Posts
On October 04 2011 10:02 JeeJee wrote: That's a bit of a silly approach; I can re-write that to be about broodwar. A balanced and competitive game is a fun game; they're definitely not exclusive, and I'm not sure why you separated them as such. In fact the most fun games are those where you can't mash one button or build one unit and win =P e: I thought it was common knowledge that TL has a bunch of exclusive forums? Surely that's a biased view to take, when in that respect, TL and smashboards are identical. I sort of forgot about that, but there are still some differences. Of course we know that TL is quite a mature intelligent community, so i'll list some others... Sure at the exclusive thing, but they don't go around trying to make rulesets and force them onto all tournament organizers do they? Many people in the SBR surely want things their way so that they can enjoy the game (and their competitive career) to the fullest. And yes of course, in order to discuss things and find out the best thing to do, you need to argue for your own wants and opinions, but my point is that the SBR is sort of like a union between the pros and their friends, along with the many good posters in there. It's like all the GSL players making a group and saying "we want these balance changes, and these maps, and these rules." It could be interesting but I would not trust anyone but Blizzard with balancing (unless they don't listen to any pro feedback). But this is the way it is for SSB community. And I guess the example doesn't quite work since Sakurai isn't going to balance the game, but since it is a fighting game, there will always be imbalances. The tournament organizers should just come together (not the pros...) and agree on some handicaps for certain characters. If they're worried about lowering the average lifetime of a stock due to handicap, they can lower the damage ratio to make up (make the weaker characters heavier basically, make the stronger characters lighter). But there could be arguments for both sides whether it should be the pros or TOs since there is no official body like Blizzard, I guess. Anyways I'm tired, can't think this through as well as I would like to atm ;_; Also, unless I'm mistaken, the exclusive forums on TL are more so for the staff right? Just wondering cus i don't know too much about them aside from the hidden mafia forum and such. On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: This is wrong. L-cancel was intentional, which was in SSB64. Wavedashing/wavelanding was unintentional but the developers knew about it (wavedashing is in melee but not 64 or brawl). Then there's over 20 (yes, over 20) other advanced techniques that I won't even bother mentioning.. Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close. This He said a "lot", not all tricks/techniques. I know L-cancel was intentional. Or are you saying L-cancel was the only AT in SSB? in which case nevermind. And I would like to add that, are those 20 ATs simply general ones that apply to all or most characters? And do you mean melee or brawl xD Because I would like to say, to anyone who reads this, that in Brawl, there are probably a hundred unique ATs (based on a specific bug/exploit, so excluding various uses for the same expoit, as in a wavedash into forward smash or a wavedash into a down smash is still 1 AT) or even more since the 2 years I've been gone. There is a huge list of ATs in Smashboards.com xD . | ||
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shinjin
United States398 Posts
He said a "lot", not all tricks/techniques. I know L-cancel was intentional. Or are you saying L-cancel was the only AT in SSB? in which case nevermind. And I would like to add that, are those 20 ATs simply general ones that apply to all or most characters? And do you mean melee or brawl xD Because I would like to say, to anyone who reads this, that in Brawl, there are probably a hundred unique ATs (based on a specific bug/exploit, so excluding various uses for the same expoit, as in a wavedash into forward smash or a wavedash into a down smash is still 1 AT) or even more since the 2 years I've been gone. There is a huge list of ATs in Smashboards.com xD . Brawl may have a ton of AT's due to the retardedly long cast of characters, but the majority of them are tons easier to pull off than the most basic AT's in Melee arguing that Brawl is a more competitive game than Melee is an insult to the smash genre. Why do you think the melee scene is still as popular and hyped as ever? SSB was a great entry level competitive fighting game and Melee took it to the next level Brawl took steps back and is a beautified, watered down version of Melee. Thats how game companies make money these days, they cater to the casual player. Love it or hate it but thats the truth. | ||
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
On October 04 2011 06:18 Finality wrote: It's quite a big deal, having pretty much absolutely 0 bad matchups on the majority of the common stage list combined with tourney results that don't show that the other characters have that much of a chance in much cases means that it's fairly well deserved. Street Fighter has characters that have fairly bad matchups, but nothing like the 95-5 of Ganondorf vs Falco or 100-0 Ganon IC that brawl has. Brawl is more counterpick dependent. And there were characters that were as "imbalanced" as metaknight and were never banned, plenty of times, in other fighting games. Smash wasn't about balancing the characters, it was always the counterpick play, and learning to play better, and have your own style. As much as people said Metaknight was the most overpowered ever, the best Metaknight in the country by far had been recently losing in a lot of tournaments (Mew2King), and not placing well at all. People looked as if they had finally figured him out. The bottom line with brawl though is, not that many, even at the top, practice it to the degree that other games are practiced, the tournament scene is full of half-assers, sad to say. The truth is, you can't really say anyone is overpowered when no one is playing any character to a max potential whatsoever. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
No it doesn't. His statement hinges on the fact that the other fighting games require significantly less execution skill than melee does. Since this isn't even the case the whole statement doesn't hold true. Yes melee execution is huge....so are the frame perfect links of blazblue and ssfiv. Is execution everything? No. Does high execution requirements tend to lend itself to deeper gameplay? Yup. What youre alluding to does not have that. | ||
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
On October 04 2011 08:56 Shikyo wrote: very hard. I've been top 3 in SSBB in Finland for 2 years without practicing the game at all, just playing metaknight and spamming down smash and spacing with aerials. IN FINLAND Need you to all read this since finland's brawl community is not a great example of how to show how amazing metaknight is or anything. Metaknight doesn't dominate matchups the way certain characters do. Without metaknight, Snake Falco Diddy and Marth will do much better in tournaments yes, but just those 4, the rest of the cast will on average do much much worse. Yes those 4 can be counterpicked, but that's beside the point, they have many matchups that completely eliminate some characters. Metaknight had a bunch of close matchups, and very few that were one sided at all, if not really any. The 4 I mentioned have quite a few 80-20's and 90-10's or worse. Ice Climbers as well. Without metaknight how does a falco main beat IC on a counterpick stage? | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
Competitive brawl, who knew. | ||
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dapierow
Serbia1316 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On October 04 2011 13:48 hotbreakfest wrote: Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept. Common misconception. Melee has a very high technical requirement, but at the highest level almost everyone has close to perfect execution (they're all at least very skilled), and then what does make one player better than another? Thinking. You can not beat a good Melee player with pure techskill. There is a lot of thinking involved in Melee, at the very least as much as any other revered classic fighter. The reason the execution is used as an argument as much as it is, is because the thinking are around the same level as other fighters and the execution is what makes just a tiny bit more "advanced". | ||
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hotbreakfest
United States145 Posts
On October 04 2011 23:06 Zoler wrote: Common misconception. Melee has a very high technical requirement, but at the highest level almost everyone has close to perfect execution (they're all at least very skilled), and then what does make one player better than another? Thinking. You can not beat a good Melee player with pure techskill. There is a lot of thinking involved in Melee, at the very least as much as any other revered classic fighter. The reason the execution is used as an argument as much as it is, is because the thinking are around the same level as other fighters and the execution is what makes just a tiny bit more "advanced". I agree that Melee has a high execution requirement for fox and falco, but it isn't anywhere near the highest. In terms of intelligence and strategy, melee is pretty high but not as high as the classics. It's ok to be passionate about your game, but you need to accept the reality that melee isn't as perfect as you believe it is. On the side note, when did the brawltards decide that brawl took more mindgames than melee? The game practically degenerates into a stiff pokefest, because pressure is incredibly weak unless you play metaknight. On October 04 2011 10:07 DoubleReed wrote: The Metagame for SSBB is literally Metaknight and Anti-Metaknight. The only reason Diddy and Snake don't have more competition is that no other characters can step to metaknight. That is what a broken metagame looks like. Like Magic the Gathering had a period of time that had become Affinity vs Anti-Affinity decks, and they fixed the metagame by banning several cards that Affinity needed to make work. Metaknight is not an unbeatable god and therefore is still not good enough to be banned. Metaknight does not have 10-0 vs the entire cast. Nakoruru in CvS1 and 4 gods in MvC2 practically DESTROYED (9-1 or 10-0) at least 50% of the cast and they were still not banned. By the way, that 50% is being extremely generous. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On October 05 2011 11:49 hotbreakfest wrote: I agree that Melee has a high execution requirement for fox and falco, but it isn't anywhere near the highest. In terms of intelligence and strategy, melee is pretty high but not as high as the classics. It's ok to be passionate about your game, but you need to accept the reality that melee isn't as perfect as you believe it is. On the side note, when did the brawltards decide that brawl took more mindgames than melee? The game practically degenerates into a stiff pokefest, because pressure is incredibly weak unless you play metaknight. Metaknight is not an unbeatable god and therefore is still not good enough to be banned. Metaknight does not have 10-0 vs the entire cast. Nakoruru in CvS1 and 4 gods in MvC2 practically DESTROYED (9-1 or 10-0) at least 50% of the cast and they were still not banned. By the way, that 50% is being extremely generous. I never said Melee was perfect, it has a lot of flaws, but so does all games. I agree with the MVC example, the MK ban is stupid... | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
Having said that, from my personal experience i DO believe that melee is probably the most technically demanding at the high level However to get into melee at an amateur level doesn't require much techskill at all depending on your character. I remember plenty of NON technical space animals that did very well - however their execution in what they DID do was extremely consistent and clean enough. Having a wider techskill simply opened up more options. ---- On brawl well, lets just say it was a disappointment. I played like, 2 weeks of brawl and then the whole london community was back to melee straight after. | ||
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