After years of debate and tournament result analysis, the powers that be finally have decided to ban Meta Knight from competitive play.
OP opinion: This is quite a decision the committee has come to. Its been a topic of debate since the game came out (whether Meta Knight was too good) and it seems he finally is. I haven't followed Brawl too closely (Melee for life!) but I guess the time for the ban had come. Its a little sad, but he was really really dominant in the game so its probably for the best.
What's everyone's thoughts on it? Browsing through the thread on smashboards it seems most people are pretty happy about it and are looking forward to a more diverse tournament scene.
I'm incerdibly impressed by the way they handled this matter. Like you said, this has been a subject for a looooong time. But damn did they not hesitate or rush to throw Metaknight out.
I haven't followed melee since I found that Nevake had more then BTT videos on his youtube. Big up to the smash community!
It's quite a big deal, having pretty much absolutely 0 bad matchups on the majority of the common stage list combined with tourney results that don't show that the other characters have that much of a chance in much cases means that it's fairly well deserved.
Street Fighter has characters that have fairly bad matchups, but nothing like the 95-5 of Ganondorf vs Falco or 100-0 Ganon IC that brawl has.
Sakurai was very successful in making brawl an noncompetitive game, haha
I quit brawl because my marth was so terrible vs metaknight, I would lose in round one of tournaments to no name metaknights and I could almost go head to head with other decent people.
I think he should have been banned forever ago, although im glad they gave him a good chance. The fact that they need a ledge grab rule for him is absurd, and people tried to counter him with falco and icys, but it wasnt nearly enough since its so easy to space with MK.
I was playing melee when they decided it and everyone in the video game room freaked out it was intense. I think many of the brawl players saw it coming though, but im not sure, I just recently got back into the melee scene and I haven't been in the brawl scene for a few years now
I'm happy they did it, though I lost interest in the competitive scene years ago and banning metaknight earlier may have been the only thing to keep me around (I was a ROB player, not a great character but super hard countered by metaknight, at least the rest of the matchups were winnable).
IMO metaknight really hurt the community in the long run. He's right on cusp of being so blatantly OP that it would be easy to ban, and on the other hand, being a "best character" that could still be beaten with higher skill and the correct characters.
Fortunately for me I never picked up Meta, he didn't fit my style and I'm generally not the type to pick the strongest character or race at the start of a competitive game (why I started playing Zerg in the beta, too :p ).
Brawl just isn't a very balanced game, and it feels that way when you play it. Taking out some of the skill techniques further dampened the number of ways good players could distinguish themselves, and is why I like Melee a lot more.
Back on topic, the committee handled it extremely well, I agree. They made no rash decisions and gave the metagame (see what I did there?) time to see if they could adjust to Meta Knight. The answers weren't there and so they took the best course of action for the game. I'll be curious to see how tournaments change with Meta Knight gone.
On October 04 2011 06:35 Torte de Lini wrote: Metaknight was broken as shit, his normal A moves was like a shield. Jesus and all his moves had like 1st priority.
I thought meta knight was pretty hard to play. I would always press B and then just fall off the map and die. It was really frustrating.
On October 04 2011 06:35 Torte de Lini wrote: Metaknight was broken as shit, his normal A moves was like a shield. Jesus and all his moves had like 1st priority.
I thought meta knight was pretty hard to play. I would always press B and then just fall off the map and die. It was really frustrating.
LOL WAT
He was the spammiest shit in the world. You'd spam A up or A a million times and essentially do excessive damage. B-Side is first priority, no?
Just a random video, nothing too special here, but you can find basically infinite of them if you search "m2k metaknight" (m2k being the best metaknight).
What? Everyone knew metaknight was the best in the game by far. People had already been banning metaknights from tourneys. People had determined rankings with metaknight out of the metagame.
What's really terrible is that he was broken all levels of play. As a newbie you could just spam the tornado and no newbie would every be able to attack you (seriously metaknight completely ruins casual play). At amateur levels of play metaknight is crazy fast with the best and most varied recovery. And of course at pro levels he has the most favored matchups with and no real "hard counter."
I've seen Ally in real life. He was in a tournament I played in years ago. Was some pronounced online Brawl king and nobody took him seriously (this was his first live tournament).
On October 04 2011 06:57 Torte de Lini wrote: I've seen Ally in real life. He was in a tournament I played in years ago. Was some pronounced online Brawl king and nobody took him seriously (this was his first live tournament).
Wrecked everyone.
IIRC he was the All Is Brawl online ladder #1 and then just started wrecking people irl too.
To be fair though, snake is one of the better characters when it comes to playing online, he doesn't require frame perfect actions to do important things (Ice climbers, for example) and the things that do require timing from snake have a large enough window to be done in lag online. (Like his snakedash)
Also when speaking of metaknights moves, nearly every single one of them has transcendent priority, or in other words he has no hurtbox associated with the hitboxes on his attacks so that means you can't trade with him unless you use a move that outranges his by such a large margin that you hit him and he doesn't even touch you. Another example of this priority in brawl is Falco's lasers, if you want to easily understand how much priority his moves get, you aren't trading with those.
The only thing I really disliked about meta is he has incinvibility on his shoryuken and if he whiffs you can't punish him all the time. >_>
Wish this game never came out. It made "competitive smash" synonymous with "joke game", which is a shame, since melee was an incredibly deep, technical, and fast-paced game.
On October 04 2011 06:57 Torte de Lini wrote: I've seen Ally in real life. He was in a tournament I played in years ago. Was some pronounced online Brawl king and nobody took him seriously (this was his first live tournament).
Wrecked everyone.
Ally $1 MM everyone in my hotel at genesis (the first one) to help pay for his flight, haha. His brother was the best north american ROB at the time, so I was happy to take a stock and a half both matches.
My first ever tournament I lost my first round. My next opponent was a little kid with a wiimote + nunchuck that had also lost his first round. I was so happy, I was going to at least win 1 round! Only later did I come to find out it was ultimate razor...
Hasn't he been banned since release? I feel like this is the 5th time I read "Metaknight is now banned from tournaments!" I remember their reasoning was always something like that he doesn't have a single matchup worse than 50-50 in balance.
On October 04 2011 07:05 iamke55 wrote: Hasn't he been banned since release? I feel like this is the 5th time I read "Metaknight is now banned from tournaments!" I remember their reasoning was always something like that he doesn't have a single matchup worse than 50-50 in balance.
He hasn't ever really been banned, no. There have been tournaments that have banned them on their own, but this is for a ruleset that many tournaments are trying to adopt. There has been previous discussion on banning metaknight and it's boiled down to mostly these options
Ban
Don't Ban
Trial period where metaknight is banned for a short amount of time to let other metagames develop.
Instead of the third option, the 2nd option was opted for and as the metagame developed, close matchups like diddy and falco for metaknight actually became worse, and it's become to the point where meta has won most of the tourneys.
This is an example to show how much more metaknight wins in comparison to other characters. He's just too good for the competition and it's gotten to the point where it's better off to just take all his future winnings and split it through the rest of the high tier.
For anyone who wants to read much more on some of the reasonings for/against banning MK, look at this. (It's old, but most of the arguments are still valid.)
Meta Knight was my favorite character in Brawl next to Marth and Falco, and he was undoubtably the most OP character in the entire game. How can you compete with something that has better mobility, better damage, and has the ability to interrupt any attack and spam damage with the A button? This was a long time in coming, and should really have been put into place a really long time ago.
On October 04 2011 06:25 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: Sakurai was very successful in making brawl an noncompetitive game, haha
I quit brawl because my marth was so terrible vs metaknight, I would lose in round one of tournaments to no name metaknights and I could almost go head to head with other decent people.
I think he should have been banned forever ago, although im glad they gave him a good chance. The fact that they need a ledge grab rule for him is absurd, and people tried to counter him with falco and icys, but it wasnt nearly enough since its so easy to space with MK.
I was playing melee when they decided it and everyone in the video game room freaked out it was intense. I think many of the brawl players saw it coming though, but im not sure, I just recently got back into the melee scene and I haven't been in the brawl scene for a few years now
Kind of interesting to see how Sakurai will take this with Super Smash 4 on Wii U (I'm sure he'll hear news of this maybe >.>.)
Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."
One of the reasons Sakurai made Brawl the way it was because of accessibility but I (and several others) disagree:
1. Ike, Marth, and Snake [for examples] are imbalanced in FFA 4 player (Yeah I know who cares about FFA 4 player? But point is it wasn't balance there either.) Low levels all you do is spam smash and get kills. Higher levels (who plays high level FFA 4 player >.>) you can have people team up on Ike but with Marth you could get kills easily.
2. Metaknight imbalanced all levels of play 1v1.
So overall we have the game wasn't balanced at all despite what Sakurai tried to do.
Now I know he tried to make the game easier to learn by removing advanced techniques or combos but having depth != less accessible game.
I mean a game can have more depth and be accessible. While a game with less depth may be arguably more accessible, that's not something I think they should be aimed for.
What he tried with Brawl didn't work, there are still people who are no match against higher level players. In all super smash games, the controls were easy to learn (using special abilities for examples, etc.) Super Smash (even Melee) is arguably one of the easiest fighting games to learn but it still had a lot of depth. Unlike Tekken or Street Fighter where you have to memorize or do these button presses, Melee you just had to press A/B + Direction or w/e and you could live with that. Even all the advanced techniques weren't too difficult to do but yet they were hard to master.
Overall the game had a good learning curve IMO. It was easy to learn but yet still had a lot of depth and was competitive.
Finally balance is also important for accessibility (he did try to balance the game because he nerfed Marth, Fox, and Peach [for examples] from Melee) because in a game like Super Smash where it's a crossover fighting game, players are likely to pick characters they like rather than the best ones (unless they're playing competitively.)
We'll have to see what happens with Super Smash Bros 4 on the Wii U.
"competitive" brawl is a joke, the developers never gave a shit about balance or competitive play, which basically killed their own game, it's like they hate money or something
Brawl was never supposed to be taken seriously. It was purposely made to be stupid at a high level, with and without metaknight. Banning him further proves the scrubbiness of the brawl community.
On October 04 2011 07:44 poor newb wrote: "competitive" brawl is a joke, the developers never gave a shit about balance or competitive play, which basically killed their own game, it's like they hate money or something
*rolls eyes* Yeah, and the millions of sales totally shows that they killed their own game. They weren't catering to 0.00001% of the fans.
On October 04 2011 07:28 Torte de Lini wrote: Who is Z-Sheik?
In brawl tier lists you there are 3 closesly knit chars. Zelda, Sheik and Zelda + Shiek (you use the one best for the MU and some times switch mid game).
But this is a really bad choice. Why? Brawl has already been out for years. It is completely unfair to just ban a character like that.
Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Also, this is a horrible choice because there are still other characters that are really, really good. Diddy Kong, Snake. Why not just ban them too? Hell, why didn't they just make MK start with 10% handicap? That would make it more balanced.
On October 04 2011 07:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: LOL finally.
But this is a really bad choice. Why? Brawl has already been out for years. It is completely unfair to just ban a character like that.
Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Also, this is a horrible choice because there are still other characters that are really, really good. Diddy Kong, Snake. Why not just ban them too? Hell, why didn't they just make MK start with 10% handicap? That would make it more balanced.
SBR, you suck. XD
^^^This 100 times. Hit the nail right on it's head.
On October 04 2011 07:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Not that I can force respect on someone, but you sound really bitter and I just have to disagree. It's exclusive yes, but is that really a reason to hate it? I think the SBR has done an amazing job unifying rules and managing tournaments for a community that is, as you say, incredibly immature. I've always seen most(not all) SBR posters as almost a bastion of sanity on SWF and I totally understand why they would want to talk about things behind closed doors. You can't blame the quality posters from not always wanting a forum to freely share ideas when 90% of the posters are incapable of contributing anything meaningful.
On October 04 2011 06:35 Torte de Lini wrote: Metaknight was broken as shit, his normal A moves was like a shield. Jesus and all his moves had like 1st priority.
I thought meta knight was pretty hard to play. I would always press B and then just fall off the map and die. It was really frustrating.
very hard. I've been top 3 in SSBB in Finland for 2 years without practicing the game at all, just playing metaknight and spamming down smash and spacing with aerials.
On October 04 2011 09:10 blade55555 wrote: Out of curiosity is captain falcon just a bad character to play? He was always my favorite to play yet from what I can see he's considered bad?
On October 04 2011 07:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Not that I can force respect on someone, but you sound really bitter and I just have to disagree. It's exclusive yes, but is that really a reason to hate it? I think the SBR has done an amazing job unifying rules and managing tournaments for a community that is, as you say, incredibly immature. I've always seen most(not all) SBR posters as almost a bastion of sanity on SWF and I totally understand why they would want to talk about things behind closed doors. You can't blame the quality posters from not always wanting a forum to freely share ideas when 90% of the posters are incapable of contributing anything meaningful.
Well that's the kind of attitude I find immature, weak. There are a lot of bronzies or people who may post bad, inaccurate, inefficient, advise in the strategy forums here, right? But does that stop the good players (and even TL staff or pros) from posting, let alone make an exclusive "TL Back Room" for the "intelligent posters"? If you are right, or are intelligent, or whatnot, then you post something, and if you're right or intelligent, you should be able to make it show it. You shouldn't need people with fancy titles in their names (Smash Lab, Smash Back Room, Brawl Back Room, Committee of Rule Unity, Smash Researcher) I mean really? They're making exclusive groups for pretty much every aspect of the community. What's left then, is just a bunch of bad posters in the forums. Or so the concept goes. Hell they even make "Back Rooms" for each character. What, then, are you supposed to expect to get out of from posting on the forums besides bad responses until some people decide to invite you to the SBR?
And yes I am bitter about it, I've had many bad experiences. So many people I encountered in chat rooms, forums, clans, etc., are all there just to make a name for themselves and get power. It was so frustrating that so many people I encountered couldn't just relax and discuss things on equal terms; they'd always have flame wars with you, or treat you like trash. This is relative to TL, anyway. I'm not saying most people are like that, but enough to annoy me. Also, there are a lot of bad posters that are in the SBR, whose posts have been leaked. Such posts have been extremely offensive to the community...
In the end many of the SBR and other such powers are just people who have pride issues. I know that's a really negative way of saying it but it's true. Why can't they all just post in the normal forums, and just have red names or something to indicate they are good posters just like we do on TL? Instead they have to shut up their good posts because for some reason they believe they are superior than others. I understand the concept that it is inefficient for, in an extreme situation, smart people to discuss things with dumb people, such as how people don't want you to vote unless you're educated in real life, but this is the internet and whether or not you're a good poster is subjective. They're making decisions, ignoring what other people think. It's not democratic, it's like totalitarianism or communism. Elitists. Etc. There's no community participation involved regarding whether or not someone should join the SBR or such groups, either. It's just elitists inviting elitists. Friends inviting friends. Corruption. Stuff like that.
Didn't a lot tricks/techniques that made melee competitive start out as unintended bugs/exploits of the game engine that were eventually incorporated into the general skillset of players?I could be wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
Also as to the metaknight ban it makes sense that he got banned and that there was some delay, but I'm surprised it took this long.
about melee backroom I was #1 SSBM player in finland from 2003 to 2007 and didn't get into melee backroom, when some ppl who only theorycraft get in, super legit(its totally useless yep and 95% of the people there have no clue).
God lol. Not trying to hate but those brawl videos posted in this thread were really boring -.-.
When I watch brawl matches, all I can see is that metaknight can't be punished often while other characters who even try to approach can be punished easily. Everything but metaknight is too slow in brawl :p.
Disclaimer: I played melee for like 6 years, then switched to brawl for a week when it came out, then promptly quit both games.
On October 04 2011 09:37 rwrzr wrote: Didn't a lot tricks/techniques that made melee competitive start out as unintended bugs/exploits of the game engine that were eventually incorporated into the general skillset of players?I could be wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
Also as to the metaknight ban it makes sense that he got banned and that there was some delay, but I'm surprised it took this long.
Not all of them. Wave dashing for example is intended to work that way (all it is directional air dashing to the ground, you slide once you hit a floor) but generally abused/used often (kind of like snaking in Mario Kart.)
See this interview - Sakurai did intend for a lot of the things in Melee but toned them down purposely for Brawl.
As for the backroom and this change? I read the thread only a bit but it seems like someone else rather than the backroom?
A quote from the topic on smash boards on first page
I'm really proud of the URC for going through with this, doing what the BBR never could.
Great job, guys!!
Of course I don't know if BBR stands for Brawl Back Room or something else or if URC = back roomers.
On October 04 2011 09:37 rwrzr wrote: Didn't a lot tricks/techniques that made melee competitive start out as unintended bugs/exploits of the game engine that were eventually incorporated into the general skillset of players?I could be wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
Also as to the metaknight ban it makes sense that he got banned and that there was some delay, but I'm surprised it took this long.
Yep. They had these in SSB too. These were considered skillful things to do :D
Brawl isn't supposed to be balanced or competitive, it's supposed to be fun. You're supposed to get all your best buddies together, play characters you like, and beat the crap out of eachother with home run bats, beam swords, and various bombs.
If you have bad luck with items or w/e, it's part of the game, have fun with it
The best times I've ever had have been on custom maps like Frame (an enclosed square with 2 1 block wide holes) with full bombs on or something. So much fun.
On October 04 2011 09:54 deth2munkies wrote: Brawl isn't supposed to be balanced or competitive, it's supposed to be fun. You're supposed to get all your best buddies together, play characters you like, and beat the crap out of eachother with home run bats, beam swords, and various bombs.
If you have bad luck with items or w/e, it's part of the game, have fun with it
The best times I've ever had have been on custom maps like Frame (an enclosed square with 2 1 block wide holes) with full bombs on or something. So much fun.
That's a bit of a silly approach; I can re-write that to be about broodwar. A balanced and competitive game is a fun game; they're definitely not exclusive, and I'm not sure why you separated them as such. In fact the most fun games are those where you can't mash one button or build one unit and win =P
On October 04 2011 07:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Not that I can force respect on someone, but you sound really bitter and I just have to disagree. It's exclusive yes, but is that really a reason to hate it? I think the SBR has done an amazing job unifying rules and managing tournaments for a community that is, as you say, incredibly immature. I've always seen most(not all) SBR posters as almost a bastion of sanity on SWF and I totally understand why they would want to talk about things behind closed doors. You can't blame the quality posters from not always wanting a forum to freely share ideas when 90% of the posters are incapable of contributing anything meaningful.
Well that's the kind of attitude I find immature, weak. There are a lot of bronzies or people who may post bad, inaccurate, inefficient, advise in the strategy forums here, right? But does that stop the good players (and even TL staff or pros) from posting, let alone make an exclusive "TL Back Room" for the "intelligent posters"? If you are right, or are intelligent, or whatnot, then you post something, and if you're right or intelligent, you should be able to make it show it. You shouldn't need people with fancy titles in their names (Smash Lab, Smash Back Room, Brawl Back Room, Committee of Rule Unity, Smash Researcher) I mean really? They're making exclusive groups for pretty much every aspect of the community. What's left then, is just a bunch of bad posters in the forums. Or so the concept goes. Hell they even make "Back Rooms" for each character. What, then, are you supposed to expect to get out of from posting on the forums besides bad responses until some people decide to invite you to the SBR?
I thought it was common knowledge that TL has a bunch of exclusive forums? Surely that's a biased view to take, when in that respect, TL and smashboards are identical.
On October 04 2011 07:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: LOL finally.
But this is a really bad choice. Why? Brawl has already been out for years. It is completely unfair to just ban a character like that.
Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Also, this is a horrible choice because there are still other characters that are really, really good. Diddy Kong, Snake. Why not just ban them too? Hell, why didn't they just make MK start with 10% handicap? That would make it more balanced.
SBR, you suck. XD
The Metagame for SSBB is literally Metaknight and Anti-Metaknight. The only reason Diddy and Snake don't have more competition is that no other characters can step to metaknight. That is what a broken metagame looks like.
Like Magic the Gathering had a period of time that had become Affinity vs Anti-Affinity decks, and they fixed the metagame by banning several cards that Affinity needed to make work.
On October 04 2011 09:54 deth2munkies wrote: Brawl isn't supposed to be balanced or competitive, it's supposed to be fun. You're supposed to get all your best buddies together, play characters you like, and beat the crap out of eachother with home run bats, beam swords, and various bombs.
If you have bad luck with items or w/e, it's part of the game, have fun with it
The best times I've ever had have been on custom maps like Frame (an enclosed square with 2 1 block wide holes) with full bombs on or something. So much fun.
That's a bit of a silly approach; I can re-write that to be about broodwar. A balanced and competitive game is a fun game; they're definitely not exclusive, and I'm not sure why you separated them as such. In fact the most fun games are those where you can't mash one button or build one unit and win =P
Well yeah but it doesn't have to be one way or the other- there can be games like BW which are balanced/competitive and fun, and there are games like Brawl which are just fun, and there's nothing wrong with either of those.
I wonder If they considered just nerfing, because completely excluding a character of game sounds too harsh for me I wonder if Nintendo would listen the feedback though...
I think some of the complaining about Brawl is exaggerated. Unless you're really, really good at Smash, there's still a lot of depth to be found in the game at lower competitive levels. I mean yeah, if you're like top 100 players in the world it's probably not nearly as good a game as SSF2 Turbo or whatever, but that didn't stop people from picking up SC2 over BW. I mean, yeah, it's slow and focused almost entirely on punishing dodges, but I kind of like that. Obviously I'd never play it professionally or anything, but I enjoy learning the game. The only really frustrating thing is random tripping; other than that, I couldn't give less of a fuck about what Sakurai did or didn't want.
On October 04 2011 10:40 Hinanawi wrote: Never did follow competitive Smash, but these things always interest me. Anyone have a link to the most recent tier lists for Melee and Brawl?
On October 04 2011 10:48 Redmark wrote: I think some of the complaining about Brawl is exaggerated. Unless you're really, really good at Smash, there's still a lot of depth to be found in the game at lower competitive levels. I mean yeah, if you're like top 100 players in the world it's probably not nearly as good a game as SSF2 Turbo or whatever, but that didn't stop people from picking up SC2 over BW. I mean, yeah, it's slow and focused almost entirely on punishing dodges, but I kind of like that. Obviously I'd never play it professionally or anything, but I enjoy learning the game. The only really frustrating thing is random tripping; other than that, I couldn't give less of a fuck about what Sakurai did or didn't want.
No. You don't have to be anywhere near the top of smash to notice the difference in depth between the games. The amount of tech skill in brawl is insanely limited even for someone mediocre like me.
On October 04 2011 06:35 Torte de Lini wrote: Metaknight was broken as shit, his normal A moves was like a shield. Jesus and all his moves had like 1st priority.
I thought meta knight was pretty hard to play. I would always press B and then just fall off the map and die. It was really frustrating.
On October 04 2011 06:35 Torte de Lini wrote: Metaknight was broken as shit, his normal A moves was like a shield. Jesus and all his moves had like 1st priority.
I thought meta knight was pretty hard to play. I would always press B and then just fall off the map and die. It was really frustrating.
You must just be retarded.
It's relatively balanced among very casual players, Metaknight is more ridiculous at the top tier.
i play diddy kong against my imbaknight friend and i lose all the time.
too bad i can't have a committee to ban that! ;;
Diddy is super good vs Metaknight, this one guy who lives nearby is almost untouchable. It's possible your friend just is better, though meta has a much lower skillcurve. MU's around 50-50.
On October 04 2011 06:35 Torte de Lini wrote: Metaknight was broken as shit, his normal A moves was like a shield. Jesus and all his moves had like 1st priority.
I thought meta knight was pretty hard to play. I would always press B and then just fall off the map and die. It was really frustrating.
You must just be retarded.
It's relatively balanced among very casual players, Metaknight is more ridiculous at the top tier.
Wtf you just spam down smash and grab if you're a casual and beat anything, meta is even more OP with casuals.
On October 04 2011 09:37 rwrzr wrote: Didn't a lot tricks/techniques that made melee competitive start out as unintended bugs/exploits of the game engine that were eventually incorporated into the general skillset of players?I could be wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
Also as to the metaknight ban it makes sense that he got banned and that there was some delay, but I'm surprised it took this long.
Yep. They had these in SSB too. These were considered skillful things to do :D
This is wrong. L-cancel was intentional, which was in SSB64. Wavedashing/wavelanding was unintentional but the developers knew about it (wavedashing is in melee but not 64 or brawl).
Then there's over 20 (yes, over 20) other advanced techniques that I won't even bother mentioning..
Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
On October 04 2011 07:04 FawkingGoomba wrote: Wish this game never came out. It made "competitive smash" synonymous with "joke game", which is a shame, since melee was an incredibly deep, technical, and fast-paced game.
100% fine with it, especially in teams, double meta was ridiculous. This should make tier lists a lot more varied for the next 2-3 years, hopefully some people come back to melee.
Oh, one more thing, this really really sucks. I never played Brawl seriously, but I've been playing melee for years and there is a shit load to learn with every character, so I feel really bad for the MK mains who only have ~3 months to pick up someone else, they really should've delayed it more.
Aww too bad, I played MK since day 1, just because I thought he fit my playstyle the best. I think by day 2, we figured out he was the best character, and I had to stop using him around my friends.
I won't say the ban was a bad decision, but it would really be nice if Nintendo didn't have this anti-competitive gaming stance, so that they could release patches for their games and balance them instead of putting it entirely in the community's hands.
On October 04 2011 09:37 rwrzr wrote: Didn't a lot tricks/techniques that made melee competitive start out as unintended bugs/exploits of the game engine that were eventually incorporated into the general skillset of players?I could be wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
Also as to the metaknight ban it makes sense that he got banned and that there was some delay, but I'm surprised it took this long.
Yep. They had these in SSB too. These were considered skillful things to do :D
This is wrong. L-cancel was intentional, which was in SSB64. Wavedashing/wavelanding was unintentional but the developers knew about it (wavedashing is in melee but not 64 or brawl).
Then there's over 20 (yes, over 20) other advanced techniques that I won't even bother mentioning..
Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
On October 04 2011 07:04 FawkingGoomba wrote: Wish this game never came out. It made "competitive smash" synonymous with "joke game", which is a shame, since melee was an incredibly deep, technical, and fast-paced game.
This
What about GuiltyGear? That shit gets pretty damned complex, though BlazBlue kinda killed it when they decided that damn near every move in the game would leave you at frame advantage :/
But yeah, brawl makes me sad. I never got into heavily competitive melee, but I knew it was out there, and I was certainly better than most of my friends. I realized that melee had the potential to be extremely competitive, but the moment I played brawl my initial response was "What the fuck is this?"
I'm not a competitive fighting game player at all. I'm downright terrible at most of the, but even as a casual fan I preferred melee to brawl. I've had a lot of fun playing some of the community hacks they've come out with for brawl though. More fun than the original by quite a large margin.
On October 04 2011 09:37 rwrzr wrote: Didn't a lot tricks/techniques that made melee competitive start out as unintended bugs/exploits of the game engine that were eventually incorporated into the general skillset of players?I could be wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
Also as to the metaknight ban it makes sense that he got banned and that there was some delay, but I'm surprised it took this long.
Yep. They had these in SSB too. These were considered skillful things to do :D
This is wrong. L-cancel was intentional, which was in SSB64. Wavedashing/wavelanding was unintentional but the developers knew about it (wavedashing is in melee but not 64 or brawl).
Then there's over 20 (yes, over 20) other advanced techniques that I won't even bother mentioning..
Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
On October 04 2011 07:04 FawkingGoomba wrote: Wish this game never came out. It made "competitive smash" synonymous with "joke game", which is a shame, since melee was an incredibly deep, technical, and fast-paced game.
This
What about GuiltyGear? That shit gets pretty damned complex, though BlazBlue kinda killed it when they decided that damn near every move in the game would leave you at frame advantage :/
But yeah, brawl makes me sad. I never got into heavily competitive melee, but I knew it was out there, and I was certainly better than most of my friends. I realized that melee had the potential to be extremely competitive, but the moment I played brawl my initial response was "What the fuck is this?"
I'm not a competitive fighting game player at all. I'm downright terrible at most of the, but even as a casual fan I preferred melee to brawl. I've had a lot of fun playing some of the community hacks they've come out with for brawl though. More fun than the original by quite a large margin.
Calling it the "Most advanced fighting game" is a bit of a stretch. From what I hear guilty gear and a few other less known games have insane execution requirements. I love the shit out of melee though, and that Dark combo video is fucking amazing every time I see it.
On October 04 2011 09:37 rwrzr wrote: Didn't a lot tricks/techniques that made melee competitive start out as unintended bugs/exploits of the game engine that were eventually incorporated into the general skillset of players?I could be wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
Also as to the metaknight ban it makes sense that he got banned and that there was some delay, but I'm surprised it took this long.
Yep. They had these in SSB too. These were considered skillful things to do :D
This is wrong. L-cancel was intentional, which was in SSB64. Wavedashing/wavelanding was unintentional but the developers knew about it (wavedashing is in melee but not 64 or brawl).
Then there's over 20 (yes, over 20) other advanced techniques that I won't even bother mentioning..
Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
On October 04 2011 07:04 FawkingGoomba wrote: Wish this game never came out. It made "competitive smash" synonymous with "joke game", which is a shame, since melee was an incredibly deep, technical, and fast-paced game.
This
What about GuiltyGear? That shit gets pretty damned complex, though BlazBlue kinda killed it when they decided that damn near every move in the game would leave you at frame advantage :/
But yeah, brawl makes me sad. I never got into heavily competitive melee, but I knew it was out there, and I was certainly better than most of my friends. I realized that melee had the potential to be extremely competitive, but the moment I played brawl my initial response was "What the fuck is this?"
I'm not a competitive fighting game player at all. I'm downright terrible at most of the, but even as a casual fan I preferred melee to brawl. I've had a lot of fun playing some of the community hacks they've come out with for brawl though. More fun than the original by quite a large margin.
Calling it the "Most advanced fighting game" is a bit of a stretch. From what I hear guilty gear and a few other less known games have insane execution requirements. I love the shit out of melee though, and that Dark combo video is fucking amazing every time I see it.
Most top tier fighting games like ssbm, ssfiv, guilty gear all require insane execution. Calling SSBM the most advanced is a huge stretch because my experience with all three of the games I mentioned tell me all are very demanding at the high levels of play.
Don't think of it as priority in moves, he just has good hitboxes and all active frames so nothing really does worse than a trade.
Nintendo doesn't know how to make a fighting game, they just make it look fucking pretty and throw in fancy shit, this isn't a game designed for balance, which is also why it shouldn't be considered a competitive game, its a joke.
On October 04 2011 13:17 Zlasher wrote: Don't think of it as priority in moves, he just has good hitboxes and all active frames so nothing really does worse than a trade.
Nintendo doesn't know how to make a fighting game, they just make it look fucking pretty and throw in fancy shit, this isn't a game designed for balance, which is also why it shouldn't be considered a competitive game, its a joke.
Nintendo definitely has a unique approach, but I think they can make a good fighting game if they set out to make one. Melee was designed superbly well for example, wheras Brawl was made to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and so was destined to fail (from a competitive standpoint) from the start.
I seriously hope that they go back to the melee game design for the next smash game. I have faith that Nintendo can bring back everything that made melee fucking awesome if they look past the big $$ that a shit game like Brawl brings and actually try to design a deep game.
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone!
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone!
Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept.
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone!
Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept.
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone!
Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept.
I would assume that a game with high mechanical requirements involves a lot more strategy than you might think, look at brood war. Someone without high level mechanics thinks it's a purely mechanics-based game but really strategy is absolutely vital in all aspects of high level play. High mechanical skill generally increases the strategic depth of games when top players are equally matched.
Again, I'm not saying that other fighting games don't have deep strategical elements, whether or not they have equal or lesser mechanical requirements, I'm just saying that berating SSBM's strategical depth based on it's mechanical requirements is unfair.
this is so stupid lol. he was clearly and blatantly OP. it only took months of tournament validation to put a stamp on it but since most people played metaknight there were prolly butthurt people that didn't want to admit. it's too late for me though, i quit a long ass time ago because metaknight is fucking bullshit and ruins the game
also, just ignore the guy who whines about melee. he is obviously not good at melee at all or brawl to even be able to evaluate it, and neither were the SRK people who tried to pick it up and add retarded stuff like items into the game. the glitches created a mass amount of depth that was not there, and removing them removes that depth that brawl is now lacking in the eyes of someone who's played melee for a while and actually got to that level with the game.
there is only a miniscule amount of depth that brawl has that melee didn't have, and it has everything to do with the characters being more unique. despite that, the overall depth of brawl is extremely shallow compared to melee simply because the game is so much slower that you have less options positionally and you can overcome disadvantages between characters with less proficiency. i'm not going to really get into an argument with someone about it, because the only people who seem to argue it also seem to coincidentally have no decent amount of melee experience, but the edit is mainly for people with no experience to either who might be persuaded by an otherwise extremely unpopular opinion in the smash community.
On October 04 2011 09:37 rwrzr wrote: Didn't a lot tricks/techniques that made melee competitive start out as unintended bugs/exploits of the game engine that were eventually incorporated into the general skillset of players?I could be wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
Also as to the metaknight ban it makes sense that he got banned and that there was some delay, but I'm surprised it took this long.
Yep. They had these in SSB too. These were considered skillful things to do :D
This is wrong. L-cancel was intentional, which was in SSB64. Wavedashing/wavelanding was unintentional but the developers knew about it (wavedashing is in melee but not 64 or brawl).
Then there's over 20 (yes, over 20) other advanced techniques that I won't even bother mentioning..
Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
On October 04 2011 07:04 FawkingGoomba wrote: Wish this game never came out. It made "competitive smash" synonymous with "joke game", which is a shame, since melee was an incredibly deep, technical, and fast-paced game.
This
What about GuiltyGear? That shit gets pretty damned complex, though BlazBlue kinda killed it when they decided that damn near every move in the game would leave you at frame advantage :/
But yeah, brawl makes me sad. I never got into heavily competitive melee, but I knew it was out there, and I was certainly better than most of my friends. I realized that melee had the potential to be extremely competitive, but the moment I played brawl my initial response was "What the fuck is this?"
I'm not a competitive fighting game player at all. I'm downright terrible at most of the, but even as a casual fan I preferred melee to brawl. I've had a lot of fun playing some of the community hacks they've come out with for brawl though. More fun than the original by quite a large margin.
Calling it the "Most advanced fighting game" is a bit of a stretch. From what I hear guilty gear and a few other less known games have insane execution requirements. I love the shit out of melee though, and that Dark combo video is fucking amazing every time I see it.
Guilty Gear was not balanced very well since it had god tier characters like Johnny and Slayer that had to be banned from many tournaments and useless characters like Venom.
Blazblue however is a modern approach and is very balanced. For the most part anyway, people will always complain right?
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone!
Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept.
This sounds oddly familiar....
Haha, I was about to say the same thing, I won't give any more details though or this thread will devolve really really fast
In response to a post earlier about nerfing, there have been attempts to balance the game using hacks and even attempts to give it Melee mechanics and inclusion of the advanced techniques from Melee such as wave dashing and L-canceling. The most common one was Brawl+ but I don't think it ever caught on much.
I like the Magic the Gathering reference earlier, as its a fairly good comparison. A more recent example is the Cawblade deck from Standard and the eventual banning of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic. Jace would be in at least 7 of the top 8 decks of EVERY pro event. Stoneforge would be in at least 5, normally 6 or 7. Occasionally a Vampire deck or Boros would sneak into the top 8 somewhere, but it was a metagame of mostly Cawblade and sometimes RUG or UB. It got to the point where Cawblade pilots were pre-sideboarded for mirror matches, and if they hit something that wasn't Cawblade it didn't even matter because they'd just win anyway. Standard events became about who could break the Cawblade mirror and more and more outlandish tech would show up in decklists just trying to bust it open. This dominance actually led to a large drop-off in attendance from events like Friday Night Magic and smaller tournaments as well, and were forced to just completely gut the deck out of the Standard format. I knew something had to be done with a lot of the same cards were showing up in the top 8 of Legacy tournaments too (aka the Jace + Stoneforge + Swords). To bring it back to Brawl, that kind of metagame just isn't fun for anyone whether you're a pro or not.
As for the Smash Bros vs various other fighters discussion, I can't add much, I really only played Soul Calibur 2 at a decent level and never cared much for other fighters. I was always a Smash guy, and got into BW a few years ago, and Magic just a year ago. Lots of good times with these games though :D
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone!
Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept.
This sounds oddly familiar....
I think this is partially because platform it was released on and the way it is perceived by the general population. High execution combined with very game specific execution tends to be a turn off.
KoF,MvC2, Tekken, and SF (not the earliest versions) were all Competitive Arcade Multiplayer based with console ports. (Button layouts and motions all originally engineered for arcade stick layouts)
Skill requires execution, but execution doesn't require skill (just practice).
On October 04 2011 07:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: LOL finally.
But this is a really bad choice. Why? Brawl has already been out for years. It is completely unfair to just ban a character like that.
Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Also, this is a horrible choice because there are still other characters that are really, really good. Diddy Kong, Snake. Why not just ban them too? Hell, why didn't they just make MK start with 10% handicap? That would make it more balanced.
SBR, you suck. XD
The Metagame for SSBB is literally Metaknight and Anti-Metaknight. The only reason Diddy and Snake don't have more competition is that no other characters can step to metaknight. That is what a broken metagame looks like.
Like Magic the Gathering had a period of time that had become Affinity vs Anti-Affinity decks, and they fixed the metagame by banning several cards that Affinity needed to make work.
By "don't have more competition" do you mean have less reason to be banned? Sorry it sounds a little unclear to me what you meant but i think i get the idea. But even so, diddy/snake do well in almost all matchups, and it's not like starcraft but you can only main 1 character, so even if someone mains a character that does well against diddy/snake, diddy/snakes would still do really well. I guess I was trying to express my frustration at how imbalanced the game is and how it negatively affected the SSB community.
On October 04 2011 09:54 deth2munkies wrote: Brawl isn't supposed to be balanced or competitive, it's supposed to be fun. You're supposed to get all your best buddies together, play characters you like, and beat the crap out of eachother with home run bats, beam swords, and various bombs.
If you have bad luck with items or w/e, it's part of the game, have fun with it
The best times I've ever had have been on custom maps like Frame (an enclosed square with 2 1 block wide holes) with full bombs on or something. So much fun.
That's a bit of a silly approach; I can re-write that to be about broodwar. A balanced and competitive game is a fun game; they're definitely not exclusive, and I'm not sure why you separated them as such. In fact the most fun games are those where you can't mash one button or build one unit and win =P
On October 04 2011 07:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Not that I can force respect on someone, but you sound really bitter and I just have to disagree. It's exclusive yes, but is that really a reason to hate it? I think the SBR has done an amazing job unifying rules and managing tournaments for a community that is, as you say, incredibly immature. I've always seen most(not all) SBR posters as almost a bastion of sanity on SWF and I totally understand why they would want to talk about things behind closed doors. You can't blame the quality posters from not always wanting a forum to freely share ideas when 90% of the posters are incapable of contributing anything meaningful.
Well that's the kind of attitude I find immature, weak. There are a lot of bronzies or people who may post bad, inaccurate, inefficient, advise in the strategy forums here, right? But does that stop the good players (and even TL staff or pros) from posting, let alone make an exclusive "TL Back Room" for the "intelligent posters"? If you are right, or are intelligent, or whatnot, then you post something, and if you're right or intelligent, you should be able to make it show it. You shouldn't need people with fancy titles in their names (Smash Lab, Smash Back Room, Brawl Back Room, Committee of Rule Unity, Smash Researcher) I mean really? They're making exclusive groups for pretty much every aspect of the community. What's left then, is just a bunch of bad posters in the forums. Or so the concept goes. Hell they even make "Back Rooms" for each character. What, then, are you supposed to expect to get out of from posting on the forums besides bad responses until some people decide to invite you to the SBR?
I thought it was common knowledge that TL has a bunch of exclusive forums? Surely that's a biased view to take, when in that respect, TL and smashboards are identical.
I sort of forgot about that, but there are still some differences. Of course we know that TL is quite a mature intelligent community, so i'll list some others...
Sure at the exclusive thing, but they don't go around trying to make rulesets and force them onto all tournament organizers do they? Many people in the SBR surely want things their way so that they can enjoy the game (and their competitive career) to the fullest. And yes of course, in order to discuss things and find out the best thing to do, you need to argue for your own wants and opinions, but my point is that the SBR is sort of like a union between the pros and their friends, along with the many good posters in there.
It's like all the GSL players making a group and saying "we want these balance changes, and these maps, and these rules." It could be interesting but I would not trust anyone but Blizzard with balancing (unless they don't listen to any pro feedback). But this is the way it is for SSB community. And I guess the example doesn't quite work since Sakurai isn't going to balance the game, but since it is a fighting game, there will always be imbalances. The tournament organizers should just come together (not the pros...) and agree on some handicaps for certain characters. If they're worried about lowering the average lifetime of a stock due to handicap, they can lower the damage ratio to make up (make the weaker characters heavier basically, make the stronger characters lighter). But there could be arguments for both sides whether it should be the pros or TOs since there is no official body like Blizzard, I guess.
Anyways I'm tired, can't think this through as well as I would like to atm ;_;
Also, unless I'm mistaken, the exclusive forums on TL are more so for the staff right? Just wondering cus i don't know too much about them aside from the hidden mafia forum and such.
On October 04 2011 09:37 rwrzr wrote: Didn't a lot tricks/techniques that made melee competitive start out as unintended bugs/exploits of the game engine that were eventually incorporated into the general skillset of players?I could be wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
Also as to the metaknight ban it makes sense that he got banned and that there was some delay, but I'm surprised it took this long.
Yep. They had these in SSB too. These were considered skillful things to do :D
This is wrong. L-cancel was intentional, which was in SSB64. Wavedashing/wavelanding was unintentional but the developers knew about it (wavedashing is in melee but not 64 or brawl).
Then there's over 20 (yes, over 20) other advanced techniques that I won't even bother mentioning..
Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
On October 04 2011 07:04 FawkingGoomba wrote: Wish this game never came out. It made "competitive smash" synonymous with "joke game", which is a shame, since melee was an incredibly deep, technical, and fast-paced game.
This
He said a "lot", not all tricks/techniques. I know L-cancel was intentional. Or are you saying L-cancel was the only AT in SSB? in which case nevermind.
And I would like to add that, are those 20 ATs simply general ones that apply to all or most characters? And do you mean melee or brawl xD Because I would like to say, to anyone who reads this, that in Brawl, there are probably a hundred unique ATs (based on a specific bug/exploit, so excluding various uses for the same expoit, as in a wavedash into forward smash or a wavedash into a down smash is still 1 AT) or even more since the 2 years I've been gone. There is a huge list of ATs in Smashboards.com xD .
He said a "lot", not all tricks/techniques. I know L-cancel was intentional. Or are you saying L-cancel was the only AT in SSB? in which case nevermind.
And I would like to add that, are those 20 ATs simply general ones that apply to all or most characters? And do you mean melee or brawl xD Because I would like to say, to anyone who reads this, that in Brawl, there are probably a hundred unique ATs (based on a specific bug/exploit, so excluding various uses for the same expoit, as in a wavedash into forward smash or a wavedash into a down smash is still 1 AT) or even more since the 2 years I've been gone. There is a huge list of ATs in Smashboards.com xD .
Brawl may have a ton of AT's due to the retardedly long cast of characters, but the majority of them are tons easier to pull off than the most basic AT's in Melee
arguing that Brawl is a more competitive game than Melee is an insult to the smash genre. Why do you think the melee scene is still as popular and hyped as ever?
SSB was a great entry level competitive fighting game and Melee took it to the next level Brawl took steps back and is a beautified, watered down version of Melee.
Thats how game companies make money these days, they cater to the casual player. Love it or hate it but thats the truth.
Just wanted to say that just about the best Marth main in the country, and a MK user on the side posted his opinion on it. He has been power ranked in SoCal (honestly one of the most competitive regions, and at times the best region off and on) since the power rank for SoCal has been around to my memory. Here is MikeHaze's add to this fiasco.
On October 04 2011 06:18 Finality wrote: It's quite a big deal, having pretty much absolutely 0 bad matchups on the majority of the common stage list combined with tourney results that don't show that the other characters have that much of a chance in much cases means that it's fairly well deserved.
Street Fighter has characters that have fairly bad matchups, but nothing like the 95-5 of Ganondorf vs Falco or 100-0 Ganon IC that brawl has.
Brawl is more counterpick dependent. And there were characters that were as "imbalanced" as metaknight and were never banned, plenty of times, in other fighting games. Smash wasn't about balancing the characters, it was always the counterpick play, and learning to play better, and have your own style. As much as people said Metaknight was the most overpowered ever, the best Metaknight in the country by far had been recently losing in a lot of tournaments (Mew2King), and not placing well at all. People looked as if they had finally figured him out. The bottom line with brawl though is, not that many, even at the top, practice it to the degree that other games are practiced, the tournament scene is full of half-assers, sad to say. The truth is, you can't really say anyone is overpowered when no one is playing any character to a max potential whatsoever.
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone!
Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept.
This sounds oddly familiar....
No it doesn't.
His statement hinges on the fact that the other fighting games require significantly less execution skill than melee does. Since this isn't even the case the whole statement doesn't hold true. Yes melee execution is huge....so are the frame perfect links of blazblue and ssfiv. Is execution everything? No. Does high execution requirements tend to lend itself to deeper gameplay? Yup.
On October 04 2011 06:35 Torte de Lini wrote: Metaknight was broken as shit, his normal A moves was like a shield. Jesus and all his moves had like 1st priority.
I thought meta knight was pretty hard to play. I would always press B and then just fall off the map and die. It was really frustrating.
very hard. I've been top 3 in SSBB in Finland for 2 years without practicing the game at all, just playing metaknight and spamming down smash and spacing with aerials.
IN FINLAND
Need you to all read this since finland's brawl community is not a great example of how to show how amazing metaknight is or anything. Metaknight doesn't dominate matchups the way certain characters do. Without metaknight, Snake Falco Diddy and Marth will do much better in tournaments yes, but just those 4, the rest of the cast will on average do much much worse. Yes those 4 can be counterpicked, but that's beside the point, they have many matchups that completely eliminate some characters. Metaknight had a bunch of close matchups, and very few that were one sided at all, if not really any. The 4 I mentioned have quite a few 80-20's and 90-10's or worse. Ice Climbers as well. Without metaknight how does a falco main beat IC on a counterpick stage?
I do not know of Supersmash bros So first thought, are they actually banning a player because he is that good? then I realized it was an in game character... silly me
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone!
Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept.
Common misconception. Melee has a very high technical requirement, but at the highest level almost everyone has close to perfect execution (they're all at least very skilled), and then what does make one player better than another? Thinking.
You can not beat a good Melee player with pure techskill. There is a lot of thinking involved in Melee, at the very least as much as any other revered classic fighter.
The reason the execution is used as an argument as much as it is, is because the thinking are around the same level as other fighters and the execution is what makes just a tiny bit more "advanced".
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone!
Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept.
Common misconception. Melee has a very high technical requirement, but at the highest level almost everyone has close to perfect execution (they're all at least very skilled), and then what does make one player better than another? Thinking.
You can not beat a good Melee player with pure techskill. There is a lot of thinking involved in Melee, at the very least as much as any other revered classic fighter.
The reason the execution is used as an argument as much as it is, is because the thinking are around the same level as other fighters and the execution is what makes just a tiny bit more "advanced".
I agree that Melee has a high execution requirement for fox and falco, but it isn't anywhere near the highest. In terms of intelligence and strategy, melee is pretty high but not as high as the classics. It's ok to be passionate about your game, but you need to accept the reality that melee isn't as perfect as you believe it is. On the side note, when did the brawltards decide that brawl took more mindgames than melee? The game practically degenerates into a stiff pokefest, because pressure is incredibly weak unless you play metaknight.
On October 04 2011 10:07 DoubleReed wrote: The Metagame for SSBB is literally Metaknight and Anti-Metaknight. The only reason Diddy and Snake don't have more competition is that no other characters can step to metaknight. That is what a broken metagame looks like.
Like Magic the Gathering had a period of time that had become Affinity vs Anti-Affinity decks, and they fixed the metagame by banning several cards that Affinity needed to make work.
Metaknight is not an unbeatable god and therefore is still not good enough to be banned. Metaknight does not have 10-0 vs the entire cast. Nakoruru in CvS1 and 4 gods in MvC2 practically DESTROYED (9-1 or 10-0) at least 50% of the cast and they were still not banned. By the way, that 50% is being extremely generous.
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close.
LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously.
I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone!
Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept.
Common misconception. Melee has a very high technical requirement, but at the highest level almost everyone has close to perfect execution (they're all at least very skilled), and then what does make one player better than another? Thinking.
You can not beat a good Melee player with pure techskill. There is a lot of thinking involved in Melee, at the very least as much as any other revered classic fighter.
The reason the execution is used as an argument as much as it is, is because the thinking are around the same level as other fighters and the execution is what makes just a tiny bit more "advanced".
I agree that Melee has a high execution requirement for fox and falco, but it isn't anywhere near the highest. In terms of intelligence and strategy, melee is pretty high but not as high as the classics. It's ok to be passionate about your game, but you need to accept the reality that melee isn't as perfect as you believe it is. On the side note, when did the brawltards decide that brawl took more mindgames than melee? The game practically degenerates into a stiff pokefest, because pressure is incredibly weak unless you play metaknight.
On October 04 2011 10:07 DoubleReed wrote: The Metagame for SSBB is literally Metaknight and Anti-Metaknight. The only reason Diddy and Snake don't have more competition is that no other characters can step to metaknight. That is what a broken metagame looks like.
Like Magic the Gathering had a period of time that had become Affinity vs Anti-Affinity decks, and they fixed the metagame by banning several cards that Affinity needed to make work.
Metaknight is not an unbeatable god and therefore is still not good enough to be banned. Metaknight does not have 10-0 vs the entire cast. Nakoruru in CvS1 and 4 gods in MvC2 practically DESTROYED (9-1 or 10-0) at least 50% of the cast and they were still not banned. By the way, that 50% is being extremely generous.
I never said Melee was perfect, it has a lot of flaws, but so does all games.
I agree with the MVC example, the MK ban is stupid...
Melee is an analogue game which differentiates it from all other classic fighters by a mile
Having said that, from my personal experience i DO believe that melee is probably the most technically demanding at the high level
However to get into melee at an amateur level doesn't require much techskill at all depending on your character. I remember plenty of NON technical space animals that did very well - however their execution in what they DID do was extremely consistent and clean enough. Having a wider techskill simply opened up more options.
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On brawl well, lets just say it was a disappointment. I played like, 2 weeks of brawl and then the whole london community was back to melee straight after.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5167/unledjpf.png)
