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On October 04 2011 07:05 iamke55 wrote:
Hasn't he been banned since release? I feel like this is the 5th time I read "Metaknight is now banned from tournaments!" I remember their reasoning was always something like that he doesn't have a single matchup worse than 50-50 in balance.
He hasn't ever really been banned, no. There have been tournaments that have banned them on their own, but this is for a ruleset that many tournaments are trying to adopt. There has been previous discussion on banning metaknight and it's boiled down to mostly these options
Ban
Don't Ban
Trial period where metaknight is banned for a short amount of time to let other metagames develop.
Instead of the third option, the 2nd option was opted for and as the metagame developed, close matchups like diddy and falco for metaknight actually became worse, and it's become to the point where meta has won most of the tourneys.
![[image loading]](http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5167/unledjpf.png)
This is an example to show how much more metaknight wins in comparison to other characters. He's just too good for the competition and it's gotten to the point where it's better off to just take all his future winnings and split it through the rest of the high tier.
For anyone who wants to read much more on some of the reasonings for/against banning MK, look at this. (It's old, but most of the arguments are still valid.)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242903
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Meta Knight was my favorite character in Brawl next to Marth and Falco, and he was undoubtably the most OP character in the entire game. How can you compete with something that has better mobility, better damage, and has the ability to interrupt any attack and spam damage with the A button? This was a long time in coming, and should really have been put into place a really long time ago.
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Baa?21243 Posts
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On October 04 2011 06:25 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Sakurai was very successful in making brawl an noncompetitive game, haha
I quit brawl because my marth was so terrible vs metaknight, I would lose in round one of tournaments to no name metaknights and I could almost go head to head with other decent people.
I think he should have been banned forever ago, although im glad they gave him a good chance. The fact that they need a ledge grab rule for him is absurd, and people tried to counter him with falco and icys, but it wasnt nearly enough since its so easy to space with MK.
I was playing melee when they decided it and everyone in the video game room freaked out it was intense. I think many of the brawl players saw it coming though, but im not sure, I just recently got back into the melee scene and I haven't been in the brawl scene for a few years now
Kind of interesting to see how Sakurai will take this with Super Smash 4 on Wii U (I'm sure he'll hear news of this maybe >.>.)
Sakurai Interview about Melee and Brawl -
Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."
One of the reasons Sakurai made Brawl the way it was because of accessibility but I (and several others) disagree:
1. Ike, Marth, and Snake [for examples] are imbalanced in FFA 4 player (Yeah I know who cares about FFA 4 player? But point is it wasn't balance there either.) Low levels all you do is spam smash and get kills. Higher levels (who plays high level FFA 4 player >.>) you can have people team up on Ike but with Marth you could get kills easily.
2. Metaknight imbalanced all levels of play 1v1.
So overall we have the game wasn't balanced at all despite what Sakurai tried to do.
Now I know he tried to make the game easier to learn by removing advanced techniques or combos but having depth != less accessible game.
I mean a game can have more depth and be accessible. While a game with less depth may be arguably more accessible, that's not something I think they should be aimed for.
What he tried with Brawl didn't work, there are still people who are no match against higher level players. In all super smash games, the controls were easy to learn (using special abilities for examples, etc.) Super Smash (even Melee) is arguably one of the easiest fighting games to learn but it still had a lot of depth. Unlike Tekken or Street Fighter where you have to memorize or do these button presses, Melee you just had to press A/B + Direction or w/e and you could live with that. Even all the advanced techniques weren't too difficult to do but yet they were hard to master.
Overall the game had a good learning curve IMO. It was easy to learn but yet still had a lot of depth and was competitive.
Finally balance is also important for accessibility (he did try to balance the game because he nerfed Marth, Fox, and Peach [for examples] from Melee) because in a game like Super Smash where it's a crossover fighting game, players are likely to pick characters they like rather than the best ones (unless they're playing competitively.)
We'll have to see what happens with Super Smash Bros 4 on the Wii U.
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"competitive" brawl is a joke, the developers never gave a shit about balance or competitive play, which basically killed their own game, it's like they hate money or something
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Brawl was never supposed to be taken seriously. It was purposely made to be stupid at a high level, with and without metaknight. Banning him further proves the scrubbiness of the brawl community.
On October 04 2011 07:44 poor newb wrote:
"competitive" brawl is a joke, the developers never gave a shit about balance or competitive play, which basically killed their own game, it's like they hate money or something
*rolls eyes*
Yeah, and the millions of sales totally shows that they killed their own game. They weren't catering to 0.00001% of the fans.
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On October 04 2011 07:28 Torte de Lini wrote:
Who is Z-Sheik?
In brawl tier lists you there are 3 closesly knit chars. Zelda, Sheik and Zelda + Shiek (you use the one best for the MU and some times switch mid game).
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LOL finally.
But this is a really bad choice. Why? Brawl has already been out for years. It is completely unfair to just ban a character like that.
Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Also, this is a horrible choice because there are still other characters that are really, really good. Diddy Kong, Snake. Why not just ban them too? Hell, why didn't they just make MK start with 10% handicap? That would make it more balanced.
SBR, you suck. XD
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On October 04 2011 07:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
LOL finally.
But this is a really bad choice. Why? Brawl has already been out for years. It is completely unfair to just ban a character like that.
Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Also, this is a horrible choice because there are still other characters that are really, really good. Diddy Kong, Snake. Why not just ban them too? Hell, why didn't they just make MK start with 10% handicap? That would make it more balanced.
SBR, you suck. XD
^^^This 100 times.
Hit the nail right on it's head.
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On October 04 2011 07:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Not that I can force respect on someone, but you sound really bitter and I just have to disagree. It's exclusive yes, but is that really a reason to hate it? I think the SBR has done an amazing job unifying rules and managing tournaments for a community that is, as you say, incredibly immature. I've always seen most(not all) SBR posters as almost a bastion of sanity on SWF and I totally understand why they would want to talk about things behind closed doors. You can't blame the quality posters from not always wanting a forum to freely share ideas when 90% of the posters are incapable of contributing anything meaningful.
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hopefully this forces more people to play melee
i didn't really care about competitive brawl anyways.
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On October 04 2011 06:42 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 06:35 Torte de Lini wrote:
Metaknight was broken as shit, his normal A moves was like a shield. Jesus and all his moves had like 1st priority. I thought meta knight was pretty hard to play. I would always press B and then just fall off the map and die. It was really frustrating.
very hard. I've been top 3 in SSBB in Finland for 2 years without practicing the game at all, just playing metaknight and spamming down smash and spacing with aerials.
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all I have to say to this is that it's about damn time.
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Out of curiosity is captain falcon just a bad character to play? He was always my favorite to play yet from what I can see he's considered bad?
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On October 04 2011 09:10 blade55555 wrote:
Out of curiosity is captain falcon just a bad character to play? He was always my favorite to play yet from what I can see he's considered bad?
He's at the bottom of the tier list D:
But on the fun tier list-He's at the top 
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Brawl is garbage anyway. I agree with the OP. Melee for life!
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On October 04 2011 08:28 Azuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 07:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Then again, I don't give a fuck about the Smash Back Room. I used to put time into SSB like I do now for TL/SC2 (the latter is way better, mature, intelligent, etc.) but wow it was a bad bad community. Powers that be? I guess that's a good way to put it, the SBR is nothing to respect. Are there respectable players in the SBR? Yes. But the sole existence and purpose of the SBR is 100% counter intuitive to the whole concept of a community and a forum where you freely share ideas. It's like those big bullies in elementary school that say "No sorry, we're better than you, you can't come play with us. But we'll tell you later if we did anything fun."
Not that I can force respect on someone, but you sound really bitter and I just have to disagree. It's exclusive yes, but is that really a reason to hate it? I think the SBR has done an amazing job unifying rules and managing tournaments for a community that is, as you say, incredibly immature. I've always seen most(not all) SBR posters as almost a bastion of sanity on SWF and I totally understand why they would want to talk about things behind closed doors. You can't blame the quality posters from not always wanting a forum to freely share ideas when 90% of the posters are incapable of contributing anything meaningful.
Well that's the kind of attitude I find immature, weak. There are a lot of bronzies or people who may post bad, inaccurate, inefficient, advise in the strategy forums here, right? But does that stop the good players (and even TL staff or pros) from posting, let alone make an exclusive "TL Back Room" for the "intelligent posters"? If you are right, or are intelligent, or whatnot, then you post something, and if you're right or intelligent, you should be able to make it show it. You shouldn't need people with fancy titles in their names (Smash Lab, Smash Back Room, Brawl Back Room, Committee of Rule Unity, Smash Researcher) I mean really? They're making exclusive groups for pretty much every aspect of the community. What's left then, is just a bunch of bad posters in the forums. Or so the concept goes. Hell they even make "Back Rooms" for each character. What, then, are you supposed to expect to get out of from posting on the forums besides bad responses until some people decide to invite you to the SBR?
And yes I am bitter about it, I've had many bad experiences. So many people I encountered in chat rooms, forums, clans, etc., are all there just to make a name for themselves and get power. It was so frustrating that so many people I encountered couldn't just relax and discuss things on equal terms; they'd always have flame wars with you, or treat you like trash. This is relative to TL, anyway. I'm not saying most people are like that, but enough to annoy me. Also, there are a lot of bad posters that are in the SBR, whose posts have been leaked. Such posts have been extremely offensive to the community...
In the end many of the SBR and other such powers are just people who have pride issues. I know that's a really negative way of saying it but it's true. Why can't they all just post in the normal forums, and just have red names or something to indicate they are good posters just like we do on TL? Instead they have to shut up their good posts because for some reason they believe they are superior than others. I understand the concept that it is inefficient for, in an extreme situation, smart people to discuss things with dumb people, such as how people don't want you to vote unless you're educated in real life, but this is the internet and whether or not you're a good poster is subjective. They're making decisions, ignoring what other people think. It's not democratic, it's like totalitarianism or communism. Elitists. Etc. There's no community participation involved regarding whether or not someone should join the SBR or such groups, either. It's just elitists inviting elitists. Friends inviting friends. Corruption. Stuff like that.
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Didn't a lot tricks/techniques that made melee competitive start out as unintended bugs/exploits of the game engine that were eventually incorporated into the general skillset of players?I could be wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
Also as to the metaknight ban it makes sense that he got banned and that there was some delay, but I'm surprised it took this long.
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EPT
