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Count9
China10928 Posts
Oh, one more thing, this really really sucks. I never played Brawl seriously, but I've been playing melee for years and there is a shit load to learn with every character, so I feel really bad for the MK mains who only have ~3 months to pick up someone else, they really should've delayed it more. And hopefully black marth comes back. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
I won't say the ban was a bad decision, but it would really be nice if Nintendo didn't have this anti-competitive gaming stance, so that they could release patches for their games and balance them instead of putting it entirely in the community's hands. | ||
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Bobbias
Canada1373 Posts
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: This is wrong. L-cancel was intentional, which was in SSB64. Wavedashing/wavelanding was unintentional but the developers knew about it (wavedashing is in melee but not 64 or brawl). Then there's over 20 (yes, over 20) other advanced techniques that I won't even bother mentioning.. Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close. This What about GuiltyGear? That shit gets pretty damned complex, though BlazBlue kinda killed it when they decided that damn near every move in the game would leave you at frame advantage :/ But yeah, brawl makes me sad. I never got into heavily competitive melee, but I knew it was out there, and I was certainly better than most of my friends. I realized that melee had the potential to be extremely competitive, but the moment I played brawl my initial response was "What the fuck is this?" I'm not a competitive fighting game player at all. I'm downright terrible at most of the, but even as a casual fan I preferred melee to brawl. I've had a lot of fun playing some of the community hacks they've come out with for brawl though. More fun than the original by quite a large margin. | ||
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DotADeMoN
United States517 Posts
On October 04 2011 11:31 Bobbias wrote: What about GuiltyGear? That shit gets pretty damned complex, though BlazBlue kinda killed it when they decided that damn near every move in the game would leave you at frame advantage :/ But yeah, brawl makes me sad. I never got into heavily competitive melee, but I knew it was out there, and I was certainly better than most of my friends. I realized that melee had the potential to be extremely competitive, but the moment I played brawl my initial response was "What the fuck is this?" I'm not a competitive fighting game player at all. I'm downright terrible at most of the, but even as a casual fan I preferred melee to brawl. I've had a lot of fun playing some of the community hacks they've come out with for brawl though. More fun than the original by quite a large margin. Calling it the "Most advanced fighting game" is a bit of a stretch. From what I hear guilty gear and a few other less known games have insane execution requirements. I love the shit out of melee though, and that Dark combo video is fucking amazing every time I see it. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On October 04 2011 11:48 FawkingGoomba wrote: Calling it the "Most advanced fighting game" is a bit of a stretch. From what I hear guilty gear and a few other less known games have insane execution requirements. I love the shit out of melee though, and that Dark combo video is fucking amazing every time I see it. Most top tier fighting games like ssbm, ssfiv, guilty gear all require insane execution. Calling SSBM the most advanced is a huge stretch because my experience with all three of the games I mentioned tell me all are very demanding at the high levels of play. | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
Nintendo doesn't know how to make a fighting game, they just make it look fucking pretty and throw in fancy shit, this isn't a game designed for balance, which is also why it shouldn't be considered a competitive game, its a joke. | ||
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DotADeMoN
United States517 Posts
On October 04 2011 13:17 Zlasher wrote: Don't think of it as priority in moves, he just has good hitboxes and all active frames so nothing really does worse than a trade. Nintendo doesn't know how to make a fighting game, they just make it look fucking pretty and throw in fancy shit, this isn't a game designed for balance, which is also why it shouldn't be considered a competitive game, its a joke. Nintendo definitely has a unique approach, but I think they can make a good fighting game if they set out to make one. Melee was designed superbly well for example, wheras Brawl was made to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and so was destined to fail (from a competitive standpoint) from the start. I seriously hope that they go back to the melee game design for the next smash game. I have faith that Nintendo can bring back everything that made melee fucking awesome if they look past the big $$ that a shit game like Brawl brings and actually try to design a deep game. | ||
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hotbreakfest
United States145 Posts
On October 04 2011 11:17 Zoler wrote: Melee is the most advanced fighting game there is, I've played SF2, SF4, tekken, Soul Calibur, MVC etc. all at an at least basic to medium understanding of the games. No other fighting game comes close. LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously. | ||
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
On October 04 2011 13:29 hotbreakfest wrote: LMAO... And then you don't understand why the fighting game community doesn't take you seriously. I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone! | ||
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hotbreakfest
United States145 Posts
On October 04 2011 13:35 Meta wrote: I don't know much about other fighters but I think SSBM is incomparable to most of them in a lot of ways, that said I doubt it's the "most advanced" ever made. But it's certainly up there, certain characters (fox, in particular) have unattainably high skill ceilings in terms of mechanics alone! Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept. | ||
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.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
On October 04 2011 13:48 hotbreakfest wrote: Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept. This sounds oddly familiar....  | ||
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
On October 04 2011 13:48 hotbreakfest wrote: Competitive Melee shares some things in common with traditional fighters. The problem is that many fellow melee junkies only regard execution as skill. It's nothing more than muscle memory, and there is usually very little thinking involved. So when their game gets shit on, they go back to the "high execution" argument and end up looking stupid. The competitive fighting game community understands that a game can be deep without high execution requirement, but much of the smash community doesn't seem to grasp this concept. I would assume that a game with high mechanical requirements involves a lot more strategy than you might think, look at brood war. Someone without high level mechanics thinks it's a purely mechanics-based game but really strategy is absolutely vital in all aspects of high level play. High mechanical skill generally increases the strategic depth of games when top players are equally matched. Again, I'm not saying that other fighting games don't have deep strategical elements, whether or not they have equal or lesser mechanical requirements, I'm just saying that berating SSBM's strategical depth based on it's mechanical requirements is unfair. | ||
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
also, just ignore the guy who whines about melee. he is obviously not good at melee at all or brawl to even be able to evaluate it, and neither were the SRK people who tried to pick it up and add retarded stuff like items into the game. the glitches created a mass amount of depth that was not there, and removing them removes that depth that brawl is now lacking in the eyes of someone who's played melee for a while and actually got to that level with the game. there is only a miniscule amount of depth that brawl has that melee didn't have, and it has everything to do with the characters being more unique. despite that, the overall depth of brawl is extremely shallow compared to melee simply because the game is so much slower that you have less options positionally and you can overcome disadvantages between characters with less proficiency. i'm not going to really get into an argument with someone about it, because the only people who seem to argue it also seem to coincidentally have no decent amount of melee experience, but the edit is mainly for people with no experience to either who might be persuaded by an otherwise extremely unpopular opinion in the smash community. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On October 04 2011 11:48 FawkingGoomba wrote: Calling it the "Most advanced fighting game" is a bit of a stretch. From what I hear guilty gear and a few other less known games have insane execution requirements. I love the shit out of melee though, and that Dark combo video is fucking amazing every time I see it. Guilty Gear was not balanced very well since it had god tier characters like Johnny and Slayer that had to be banned from many tournaments and useless characters like Venom. Blazblue however is a modern approach and is very balanced. For the most part anyway, people will always complain right? | ||
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DrBoo
Canada1177 Posts
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RajaF
Canada530 Posts
Haha, I was about to say the same thing, I won't give any more details though or this thread will devolve really really fast | ||
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HyruleanTubist
United States189 Posts
I like the Magic the Gathering reference earlier, as its a fairly good comparison. A more recent example is the Cawblade deck from Standard and the eventual banning of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic. Jace would be in at least 7 of the top 8 decks of EVERY pro event. Stoneforge would be in at least 5, normally 6 or 7. Occasionally a Vampire deck or Boros would sneak into the top 8 somewhere, but it was a metagame of mostly Cawblade and sometimes RUG or UB. It got to the point where Cawblade pilots were pre-sideboarded for mirror matches, and if they hit something that wasn't Cawblade it didn't even matter because they'd just win anyway. Standard events became about who could break the Cawblade mirror and more and more outlandish tech would show up in decklists just trying to bust it open. This dominance actually led to a large drop-off in attendance from events like Friday Night Magic and smaller tournaments as well, and were forced to just completely gut the deck out of the Standard format. I knew something had to be done with a lot of the same cards were showing up in the top 8 of Legacy tournaments too (aka the Jace + Stoneforge + Swords). To bring it back to Brawl, that kind of metagame just isn't fun for anyone whether you're a pro or not. As for the Smash Bros vs various other fighters discussion, I can't add much, I really only played Soul Calibur 2 at a decent level and never cared much for other fighters. I was always a Smash guy, and got into BW a few years ago, and Magic just a year ago. Lots of good times with these games though :D | ||
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rwrzr
United States1980 Posts
I think this is partially because platform it was released on and the way it is perceived by the general population. High execution combined with very game specific execution tends to be a turn off. KoF,MvC2, Tekken, and SF (not the earliest versions) were all Competitive Arcade Multiplayer based with console ports. (Button layouts and motions all originally engineered for arcade stick layouts) Skill requires execution, but execution doesn't require skill (just practice). | ||
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ETisME
12631 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On October 04 2011 10:07 DoubleReed wrote: The Metagame for SSBB is literally Metaknight and Anti-Metaknight. The only reason Diddy and Snake don't have more competition is that no other characters can step to metaknight. That is what a broken metagame looks like. Like Magic the Gathering had a period of time that had become Affinity vs Anti-Affinity decks, and they fixed the metagame by banning several cards that Affinity needed to make work. By "don't have more competition" do you mean have less reason to be banned? Sorry it sounds a little unclear to me what you meant but i think i get the idea. But even so, diddy/snake do well in almost all matchups, and it's not like starcraft but you can only main 1 character, so even if someone mains a character that does well against diddy/snake, diddy/snakes would still do really well. I guess I was trying to express my frustration at how imbalanced the game is and how it negatively affected the SSB community. | ||
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