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RuiBarbO
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States1340 Posts
September 22 2014 01:46 GMT
#12161
On September 21 2014 07:04 NihiLStarcraft wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Re: the whole interpolation, server tick rate and how good everything 'feels' debate:

I study CS and am working on multiplayer games myself so I kinda can't tell anymore what's common knowledge for people and what isn't. If what I say here is something everybody knows already then please excuse me for the repetition, I don't want to come across as a smartass. :p

So getting a fast action-based multiplayer game to work across the internet is always super mega tricky for the simple fact that the internet is, in reality, too slow for what human reflexes can do. Say you have a ping of 70 (which is a good average, I personally have a good connection here in Germany which means I generally get ~20 ping but there's also people from other countries further away from the Valve servers with much higher ping). That means it takes data 70ms to travel from your game (client) to the server. If you see someone else on your screen, let's assume they also have a 70 ping, it takes 70ms for their input to reach the server and then the server forwards their movement and actions to you which is another 70ms. That's 140ms. Of course, all clients (you and your opponent) as well as the server, are just computers and they aren't infinitely fast either. A server running at 64 tick 'updates' the game 64 times a second. This creates a 'window', jitter in other words. Say you hit the fire button to shoot at someone, your PC probably doesn't take very long to send out that info to the server, so let's ignore possible lag there, but it will take 70ms to reach the server. But it will only affect the state of the game whenever that server reaches its nearest tick. It's (pseudo-)random. Sometimes your info will hit right before the server 'ticks' and it'll be great, sometimes it's the worst case where your data hits the server just as it updated and now it's in a queue waiting to be applied to the actual game. For a 64 tick server, the worst case is another ~16ms if you're unlucky. If we switch perspective to the opponent that you were shooting at, he can only see the shot when the data arrives at his computer. So that's the total of 86 plus the 70 ping of the opponent, since it still takes a bit of time for your PC to handle the new data and render a new frame to the screen we can safely assume 160ms of delay there.

160ms is not responsive whatsoever in a game that's as fast as CSGO. As you can probably assume, 120 ticks doesn't change the situation that much for people with average-bad ping. The better the ping, the more higher server tick rate helps. But the point is, raw data transfer over the internet like that is just way slow and not suitable for fast gameplay. So 90% of the work that the programmers for these games do in the multiplayer department is to implement hacks that make the game feel better than what it really is, this is where client-side interpolation and prediction comes in, which are more complicated ways of faking less latency than there really is. So with interp, if you want to move forward by hitting W it's unacceptable to have there always be a delay of up to one tenth of a second or more before your player actually starts moving, that feels absolutely horrible, so the client will just move itself directly rightaway. If the server then later says that you couldn't have gone there because something else happened that you as a client didn't know about at the time (or because you're hacking lol), then it'll overwrite the local client position with whatever the server sent you (in fact it will blend over from your current position into the actual one). This is what creates rubber-banding and warping when there are connection problems.

Aaaanyways, not quite sure why I decided to write that up, and again I hope that I didn't make myself look stupid because it's the most obvious thing ever. If so, please ignore. Maybe there are people out there, however, who don't know what ping is or how a client-server game roughly works. Also note that there's no way to confirm the specifics of how it all actually works, this is mostly my general knowledge of netcoding in combination with what I can safely assume to be the case with CSGO.

But latency isn't the only issue with CSGO's gunplay. It's a complicated topic with a lot of contributing areas where there could be improvements. That was just the basics of latency under the assumption that everything else works. But servers can hiccup (even 128 tick) and there's more issues, such as paket loss. Or take hitboxes for example. They are obviously misplaced in certain animation clips, everybody knows/sees it when Ts plant the bomb/CTs defuse. The visual model does not line up with the actual hitbox so hitting these semi-crouching players can be tricky. Jumping hitboxes also seem glitchy. Since I practice and warm-up against knive-only bots that rush you on aim_map, I even noticed a big hitbox issue when I look down on them from one of the balconies (and they are rushing up at me on the ramp). I will miss hits that are on their visual model heads and then get headshots that are completely offset. Maybe I should capture these on video because, contrary to the latency issues which are simply a limitation of technology, these hitbox misalignments are not. This is on a local vs bots 128 tick game with 300-400 fps and <0.6ms var so there shouldn't be any instability from lag. They're just lazy and badly tested as far as I can tell and, in extreme cases, gamebreaking.


That actually makes a lot of sense. I myself have been having a hard time finding consistency in this game, which I always attributed to my just not getting something fundamental about how to aim. Probably still part of the issue, but it's good to know that some of those crazy didn't-even-see-that-bullet or how-did-that-(not)-hit moments aren't just my imagination.
Can someone please explain/how water falls with no rain?
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
September 22 2014 10:09 GMT
#12162
On September 22 2014 10:04 Sableyeah wrote:
^you got baited so hard :p

Off topic from the serious hitboxes discussion but Pasha best streamer :D I watched his games with n0thing, apeX, summit and olof live but I decided to watch it again today because it was so funny.

Before his stream I was betting, gooood stuff hehe. With todays added up, - 11 bets, 1 loss, 1 closed. Too bad my bet on NiP-Myxmg was too low, 3.50... xD Didnt get anything. So silly that Im actually risking for nothing.



That one with the hackers on Cache?
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-22 12:27:37
September 22 2014 12:23 GMT
#12163
On September 22 2014 09:08 Psychonian wrote:
So I just played a match on castle for a mission, win 16 rounds on castle. It's 14-5 and it's 4v1. A guy on my team starts saying "GUYS I THINK HES DISGUISED AS ONE OF US" and then TK's me, one shot with an auto.

So I call him an asshole, to which he says "You know i've always been called that, always loved that name."

Fast forward to next round start. Match point. He starts shooting me with his glock so i turn around and headshot him with my AK.

"You have been kicked and banned for killing teammates at round start."

GG valve, GG

For some unknown reason it used to be that a headshot within the first 5 seconds of a round is an auto kick. Don't know if they changed it now though. I think it used to be 500 hp total for autokick, but it seems a ot lower now. I remember being autokicked recently for throwing a bad HE that bounced back at A short and hit everybody and an accidental TK later and I got autokicked for it.
Nimix
Profile Joined October 2011
France1809 Posts
September 22 2014 12:49 GMT
#12164
I remember playing a game where CTs rushed banana on inferno, we killed one that had a nade in hand + threw a nade just before, so his nade did a double kill and he got kicked. Leaving friendly fire in MM causes way more problems than it has advantages; it basically only forces people to be careful with their nades and sometimes placement, while it allows dicks to be annoying all game long and leads to people getting kicked from games without doing anything wrong..
Sableyeah
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands2119 Posts
September 22 2014 13:07 GMT
#12165
On September 22 2014 19:09 ahswtini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2014 10:04 Sableyeah wrote:
^you got baited so hard :p

Off topic from the serious hitboxes discussion but Pasha best streamer :D I watched his games with n0thing, apeX, summit and olof live but I decided to watch it again today because it was so funny.

Before his stream I was betting, gooood stuff hehe. With todays added up, - 11 bets, 1 loss, 1 closed. Too bad my bet on NiP-Myxmg was too low, 3.50... xD Didnt get anything. So silly that Im actually risking for nothing.



That one with the hackers on Cache?


Yeah that game with onlineJ faker and aNDRE the cheaters :p NO FEAR MY FRIEND!
BoA | Sunny | HyunA | ChoA | Hyemi // Preoccupied with a single leaf, you won't see the tree. Preoccupied with a single tree and you will miss the entire f0rest - Takuan Soho
Capped
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom7236 Posts
September 22 2014 13:24 GMT
#12166
On September 22 2014 21:49 Nimix wrote:
I remember playing a game where CTs rushed banana on inferno, we killed one that had a nade in hand + threw a nade just before, so his nade did a double kill and he got kicked. Leaving friendly fire in MM causes way more problems than it has advantages; it basically only forces people to be careful with their nades and sometimes placement, while it allows dicks to be annoying all game long and leads to people getting kicked from games without doing anything wrong..


I would never touch MM again if they removed friendly fire. I play CS for its competitive aspect and i want it to be the same ruleset as tournaments.

The round/bomb timer is bad enough.
Useless wet fish.
Nimix
Profile Joined October 2011
France1809 Posts
September 22 2014 13:32 GMT
#12167
ESEA pugs don't have friendly fire (probably to avoid griefing) and to be honest it pretty much never comes into play. The bomb timer is a way bigger issue in my opinion, I'd prefer them to swap that around. As I said, I think the downsides of having friendly fire on outweigh the interesting aspects of it. I've been team damaged or team killed way too many time by annoying guys that are just mad for whatever reason and decide to be dicks (and of course know how to be annoying without getting kicked, and try and bait you into responding and getting the kick).
Dantak
Profile Joined January 2006
Czech Republic648 Posts
September 22 2014 14:19 GMT
#12168
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 21 2014 07:04 NihiLStarcraft wrote:
Re: the whole interpolation, server tick rate and how good everything 'feels' debate:

I study CS and am working on multiplayer games myself so I kinda can't tell anymore what's common knowledge for people and what isn't. If what I say here is something everybody knows already then please excuse me for the repetition, I don't want to come across as a smartass. :p

So getting a fast action-based multiplayer game to work across the internet is always super mega tricky for the simple fact that the internet is, in reality, too slow for what human reflexes can do. Say you have a ping of 70 (which is a good average, I personally have a good connection here in Germany which means I generally get ~20 ping but there's also people from other countries further away from the Valve servers with much higher ping). That means it takes data 70ms to travel from your game (client) to the server. If you see someone else on your screen, let's assume they also have a 70 ping, it takes 70ms for their input to reach the server and then the server forwards their movement and actions to you which is another 70ms. That's 140ms. Of course, all clients (you and your opponent) as well as the server, are just computers and they aren't infinitely fast either. A server running at 64 tick 'updates' the game 64 times a second. This creates a 'window', jitter in other words. Say you hit the fire button to shoot at someone, your PC probably doesn't take very long to send out that info to the server, so let's ignore possible lag there, but it will take 70ms to reach the server. But it will only affect the state of the game whenever that server reaches its nearest tick. It's (pseudo-)random. Sometimes your info will hit right before the server 'ticks' and it'll be great, sometimes it's the worst case where your data hits the server just as it updated and now it's in a queue waiting to be applied to the actual game. For a 64 tick server, the worst case is another ~16ms if you're unlucky. If we switch perspective to the opponent that you were shooting at, he can only see the shot when the data arrives at his computer. So that's the total of 86 plus the 70 ping of the opponent, since it still takes a bit of time for your PC to handle the new data and render a new frame to the screen we can safely assume 160ms of delay there.

160ms is not responsive whatsoever in a game that's as fast as CSGO. As you can probably assume, 120 ticks doesn't change the situation that much for people with average-bad ping. The better the ping, the more higher server tick rate helps. But the point is, raw data transfer over the internet like that is just way slow and not suitable for fast gameplay. So 90% of the work that the programmers for these games do in the multiplayer department is to implement hacks that make the game feel better than what it really is, this is where client-side interpolation and prediction comes in, which are more complicated ways of faking less latency than there really is. So with interp, if you want to move forward by hitting W it's unacceptable to have there always be a delay of up to one tenth of a second or more before your player actually starts moving, that feels absolutely horrible, so the client will just move itself directly rightaway. If the server then later says that you couldn't have gone there because something else happened that you as a client didn't know about at the time (or because you're hacking lol), then it'll overwrite the local client position with whatever the server sent you (in fact it will blend over from your current position into the actual one). This is what creates rubber-banding and warping when there are connection problems.

Aaaanyways, not quite sure why I decided to write that up, and again I hope that I didn't make myself look stupid because it's the most obvious thing ever. If so, please ignore. Maybe there are people out there, however, who don't know what ping is or how a client-server game roughly works. Also note that there's no way to confirm the specifics of how it all actually works, this is mostly my general knowledge of netcoding in combination with what I can safely assume to be the case with CSGO.

But latency isn't the only issue with CSGO's gunplay. It's a complicated topic with a lot of contributing areas where there could be improvements. That was just the basics of latency under the assumption that everything else works. But servers can hiccup (even 128 tick) and there's more issues, such as paket loss. Or take hitboxes for example. They are obviously misplaced in certain animation clips, everybody knows/sees it when Ts plant the bomb/CTs defuse. The visual model does not line up with the actual hitbox so hitting these semi-crouching players can be tricky. Jumping hitboxes also seem glitchy. Since I practice and warm-up against knive-only bots that rush you on aim_map, I even noticed a big hitbox issue when I look down on them from one of the balconies (and they are rushing up at me on the ramp). I will miss hits that are on their visual model heads and then get headshots that are completely offset. Maybe I should capture these on video because, contrary to the latency issues which are simply a limitation of technology, these hitbox misalignments are not. This is on a local vs bots 128 tick game with 300-400 fps and <0.6ms var so there shouldn't be any instability from lag. They're just lazy and badly tested as far as I can tell and, in extreme cases, gamebreaking.


Awesome, thanks a lot!

Also one bit offtopic: how do you set this up?
Since I practice and warm-up against knive-only bots that rush you on aim_map

"Life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery." - f33red k0r34n z3rg
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7596 Posts
September 22 2014 14:25 GMT
#12169
I'm still waiting for the rounds on Competitive to correlate with the Pro matches & ESEA. Honestly....shorter the games the better.
scudst0rm
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada1149 Posts
September 22 2014 15:50 GMT
#12170
On September 22 2014 21:23 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2014 09:08 Psychonian wrote:
So I just played a match on castle for a mission, win 16 rounds on castle. It's 14-5 and it's 4v1. A guy on my team starts saying "GUYS I THINK HES DISGUISED AS ONE OF US" and then TK's me, one shot with an auto.

So I call him an asshole, to which he says "You know i've always been called that, always loved that name."

Fast forward to next round start. Match point. He starts shooting me with his glock so i turn around and headshot him with my AK.

"You have been kicked and banned for killing teammates at round start."

GG valve, GG

For some unknown reason it used to be that a headshot within the first 5 seconds of a round is an auto kick. Don't know if they changed it now though. I think it used to be 500 hp total for autokick, but it seems a ot lower now. I remember being autokicked recently for throwing a bad HE that bounced back at A short and hit everybody and an accidental TK later and I got autokicked for it.


Because team damage in the first 5 seconds is never an accident.
You're like a one ranger army comin' at me...
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
September 22 2014 15:52 GMT
#12171
Thats not really true

If I'm tabbed out during buy time and use my mouse to "tab" back in (with 2 screens using borderless windowed) I have to click to give focus to the window (which is read as a "shoot" command of course). I've shot teammates like that before unintentionally since ur so clumped up in spawn.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
September 22 2014 16:39 GMT
#12172
Accidental knife-to-the-back while running out of spawn isn't all that uncommon - happens even in pro games.
Writer
SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
September 22 2014 17:45 GMT
#12173
On September 23 2014 01:39 Souma wrote:
Accidental knife-to-the-back while running out of spawn isn't all that uncommon - happens even in pro games.


You are asking for it then, You don't have to attack with knife it doesn't grant a speed advantage it's probably just habit/boredom
I am Godzilla You are Japan
Nimix
Profile Joined October 2011
France1809 Posts
September 22 2014 17:47 GMT
#12174
On September 23 2014 01:39 Souma wrote:
Accidental knife-to-the-back while running out of spawn isn't all that uncommon - happens even in pro games.

Happens to me so often in MM, because even if you have nothing in your field of view sometimes the attack hits someone in your back... Of course it's totally useless to spam the knife attack, but it's this kind of compulsive thing you do and it's so hard to not do it..
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
September 22 2014 17:56 GMT
#12175
Dust 2 T side awper shooting down double doors.
Sableyeah
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands2119 Posts
September 22 2014 17:56 GMT
#12176
Bad habit alway comes out on top ^^ Took me a few games to get it of it, or atleast actively stop myself during early game. I usually knife corners and objects instead of looking for BLOOD of my teammates :D

TK must stay in competitive for many many reasons, would be boring if it were to be removed.
It adds a sense of teamwork or realism. A real Counterterrorist wouldnt shoot his mate in the back... Terrorist might tho! Lets make this game more CT sided.

It adds alot of dynamic decision making aswell, to throw that nade or not. Or make that Awp kill when you see a teammate very near. Surely these are only the tip of the iceberg as to why TK should stay.

#NOFEARMYFRIEND
BoA | Sunny | HyunA | ChoA | Hyemi // Preoccupied with a single leaf, you won't see the tree. Preoccupied with a single tree and you will miss the entire f0rest - Takuan Soho
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-22 20:33:36
September 22 2014 20:32 GMT
#12177
If there was no ff in mm my reaction time would halve. I'm brutally slow and it's partly because of how careful I am.
Nimix
Profile Joined October 2011
France1809 Posts
September 22 2014 21:21 GMT
#12178
Hm, I tried the CEVO pugs with a few friends that don't want to pay for ESEA. The servers are meh, it's 128 tick but everybody was getting crazy var spikes. There doesn't seem to be a third party anti cheat, though everybody seemed legit (one guy was really good, and one other was getting pretty crazy prefires but nothing too fishy). We got matched with a dick that played like shit but spent his game criticizing my buddies.
All in all better than MM I'd say, people that don't have ESEA should try it out!
Varanice
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States1517 Posts
September 22 2014 21:41 GMT
#12179
To set up a game so that bots only use knives you open the console and type bot_knives_only you might have to put sv_cheats 1 on too, not sure.
www.twitch.tv/varanice
NihiLStarcraft
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark1413 Posts
September 22 2014 22:03 GMT
#12180
Yeah essentially. I made a video on how to set that practice/warmup environment up with a convenient script.
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