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I hate the loot system as well. When a unique drops for me, I always think it's a rare for someone else if it's in the middle of a fight (colorblind, etc.). Thankfully, I don't play with assholes and I get my items, but the whole system is terrible for public play. Then there's also the hunt for items with chromatic fodder and Superior items... good luck getting any of those if a melee class pays attention.
I really hope we get a good group of players from TL for open beta. The game is a blast when you share loot between classes and don't have to worry about ninjas.On December 10 2012 08:48 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 08:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 07:41 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 07:28 Isualin wrote:
i hate the FFA loot system too. it is too unconvenient after 200 hours of diablo 3. if i had never played d3, it would be totally acceptable though. ffa loot makes me want to play alone instead of joining parties. That's not the only problem. 1. Balance. Melee, tanky characters can easily get loots because they are closer to the monsters when they die and they can ignore monsters to pick up loots; you can't dive into a whole bunch of monsters to get loots as a ranged, squishy character. 2. Anti-cooperative play. The party is fighting monsters in a difficult area, all of a sudden a good loot dropped.... and everyone stopped fighting to go after the loot. 3. Distraction. Instead of playing the game and slaying monsters, everyone's staring at the screen without blinking just in case something valuable dropped. 4. Hacking. We all know this from D2/WoW. My understanding is that PoE is supposed to be this super hardcore ARPG that separates itself from the baby level ones (e.g. Torchlight, D3). It has a very complicated skill system, a very complicated economy, and cut-throat FFA loots. I feel that it's just way too complicated for an ARPG game, which frankly should be about mindless fun. I don't think the developers set out to make the most complicated economy or skill system. They merely appear that way when you compare them to Torchlight or D3. It's not? Then what is the purpose of designing so many different currency items except making the game arbitrarily deeper? IIRC, a lot of currency items were originally introduced to make it so leveling a new character isn't a waste of time, as you still get a good rate of currency/hour even at low levels.
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On December 10 2012 08:53 Pwere wrote:I hate the loot system as well. When a unique drops for me, I always think it's a rare for someone else if it's in the middle of a fight (colorblind, etc.). Thankfully, I don't play with assholes and I get my items, but the whole system is terrible for public play. Then there's also the hunt for items with chromatic fodder and Superior items... good luck getting any of those if a melee class pays attention. I really hope we get a good group of players from TL for open beta. The game is a blast when you share loot between classes and don't have to worry about ninjas. Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 08:48 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 07:41 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 07:28 Isualin wrote:
i hate the FFA loot system too. it is too unconvenient after 200 hours of diablo 3. if i had never played d3, it would be totally acceptable though. ffa loot makes me want to play alone instead of joining parties. That's not the only problem. 1. Balance. Melee, tanky characters can easily get loots because they are closer to the monsters when they die and they can ignore monsters to pick up loots; you can't dive into a whole bunch of monsters to get loots as a ranged, squishy character. 2. Anti-cooperative play. The party is fighting monsters in a difficult area, all of a sudden a good loot dropped.... and everyone stopped fighting to go after the loot. 3. Distraction. Instead of playing the game and slaying monsters, everyone's staring at the screen without blinking just in case something valuable dropped. 4. Hacking. We all know this from D2/WoW. My understanding is that PoE is supposed to be this super hardcore ARPG that separates itself from the baby level ones (e.g. Torchlight, D3). It has a very complicated skill system, a very complicated economy, and cut-throat FFA loots. I feel that it's just way too complicated for an ARPG game, which frankly should be about mindless fun. I don't think the developers set out to make the most complicated economy or skill system. They merely appear that way when you compare them to Torchlight or D3. It's not? Then what is the purpose of designing so many different currency items except making the game arbitrarily deeper? IIRC, a lot of currency items were originally introduced to make it so leveling a new character isn't a waste of time, as you still get a good rate of currency/hour even at low levels.
You can also do this with a gold-based system. I don't see how a gold-based system will not allow you to get gold while you level up a new character, unless there is some sort of resource-sink while leveling up which I am not aware of.
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On December 10 2012 09:00 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 08:53 Pwere wrote:I hate the loot system as well. When a unique drops for me, I always think it's a rare for someone else if it's in the middle of a fight (colorblind, etc.). Thankfully, I don't play with assholes and I get my items, but the whole system is terrible for public play. Then there's also the hunt for items with chromatic fodder and Superior items... good luck getting any of those if a melee class pays attention. I really hope we get a good group of players from TL for open beta. The game is a blast when you share loot between classes and don't have to worry about ninjas. On December 10 2012 08:48 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 07:41 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 07:28 Isualin wrote:
i hate the FFA loot system too. it is too unconvenient after 200 hours of diablo 3. if i had never played d3, it would be totally acceptable though. ffa loot makes me want to play alone instead of joining parties. That's not the only problem. 1. Balance. Melee, tanky characters can easily get loots because they are closer to the monsters when they die and they can ignore monsters to pick up loots; you can't dive into a whole bunch of monsters to get loots as a ranged, squishy character. 2. Anti-cooperative play. The party is fighting monsters in a difficult area, all of a sudden a good loot dropped.... and everyone stopped fighting to go after the loot. 3. Distraction. Instead of playing the game and slaying monsters, everyone's staring at the screen without blinking just in case something valuable dropped. 4. Hacking. We all know this from D2/WoW. My understanding is that PoE is supposed to be this super hardcore ARPG that separates itself from the baby level ones (e.g. Torchlight, D3). It has a very complicated skill system, a very complicated economy, and cut-throat FFA loots. I feel that it's just way too complicated for an ARPG game, which frankly should be about mindless fun. I don't think the developers set out to make the most complicated economy or skill system. They merely appear that way when you compare them to Torchlight or D3. It's not? Then what is the purpose of designing so many different currency items except making the game arbitrarily deeper? IIRC, a lot of currency items were originally introduced to make it so leveling a new character isn't a waste of time, as you still get a good rate of currency/hour even at low levels. You can also do this with a gold-based system. I don't see how a gold-based system will not allow you to get gold while you level up a new character, unless there is some sort of resource-sink while leveling up which I am not aware of.
Because you get pathetic amount of gold at lower levels which is useless to your high level character. But currency items don't follow monster levels for its chance to drop, they got same chance to drop at lvl 1 as at lvl 70
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On December 10 2012 09:13 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 09:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:53 Pwere wrote:I hate the loot system as well. When a unique drops for me, I always think it's a rare for someone else if it's in the middle of a fight (colorblind, etc.). Thankfully, I don't play with assholes and I get my items, but the whole system is terrible for public play. Then there's also the hunt for items with chromatic fodder and Superior items... good luck getting any of those if a melee class pays attention. I really hope we get a good group of players from TL for open beta. The game is a blast when you share loot between classes and don't have to worry about ninjas. On December 10 2012 08:48 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 07:41 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 07:28 Isualin wrote:
i hate the FFA loot system too. it is too unconvenient after 200 hours of diablo 3. if i had never played d3, it would be totally acceptable though. ffa loot makes me want to play alone instead of joining parties. That's not the only problem. 1. Balance. Melee, tanky characters can easily get loots because they are closer to the monsters when they die and they can ignore monsters to pick up loots; you can't dive into a whole bunch of monsters to get loots as a ranged, squishy character. 2. Anti-cooperative play. The party is fighting monsters in a difficult area, all of a sudden a good loot dropped.... and everyone stopped fighting to go after the loot. 3. Distraction. Instead of playing the game and slaying monsters, everyone's staring at the screen without blinking just in case something valuable dropped. 4. Hacking. We all know this from D2/WoW. My understanding is that PoE is supposed to be this super hardcore ARPG that separates itself from the baby level ones (e.g. Torchlight, D3). It has a very complicated skill system, a very complicated economy, and cut-throat FFA loots. I feel that it's just way too complicated for an ARPG game, which frankly should be about mindless fun. I don't think the developers set out to make the most complicated economy or skill system. They merely appear that way when you compare them to Torchlight or D3. It's not? Then what is the purpose of designing so many different currency items except making the game arbitrarily deeper? IIRC, a lot of currency items were originally introduced to make it so leveling a new character isn't a waste of time, as you still get a good rate of currency/hour even at low levels. You can also do this with a gold-based system. I don't see how a gold-based system will not allow you to get gold while you level up a new character, unless there is some sort of resource-sink while leveling up which I am not aware of. Because you get pathetic amount of gold at lower levels which is useless to your high level character. But currency items don't follow monster levels for its chance to drop, they got same chance to drop at lvl 1 as at lvl 70
If it is possible to drop rare, high level currency item at level 1, it's actually no different from being able to get a LOT of gold at level 1.
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Finally back on a map-capable character. It's an elemental bow templar with ranged attack totems. If you wanna party up with me (because I wanna party up with you  ) please do not hesitate to send a tell to BreakingConventions or a PM here on TL and I'll friend you.
Also to add to the discussion, seeing as it's possible to get an obscene amount of increased item quantity on a high-level character clearing maps, there's no way leveling characters isn't a "waste of time" from a wealth gaining perspective. Sure a low level might get lucky and find a GCP or two on his way up, but a high level character finds tons more items so he has a much greater chance of finding rare orbs.
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I think the system became the way it is now because the designers were aware that people bring their assumptions about what gold means with them when they play a new game. People expect the gold drops to increase as they level up, so just changing that would cause players unexpected cognitive dissonance. With an entirely different system, the player expects to have to learn how it works and won't be surprised when it works differently than gold does in e.g. Diablo.
Once they had decided that they would use something other than gold, they realized they had the opportunity to use several different kinds of currency, and that each of those could be made more special and interesting by giving them a use outside of just buying stuff. And ultimately I think that's the interesting thing about PoE's currency system.
Of course I could just be way off here. Just guessing.
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On December 10 2012 09:18 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 09:13 -Archangel- wrote:On December 10 2012 09:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:53 Pwere wrote:I hate the loot system as well. When a unique drops for me, I always think it's a rare for someone else if it's in the middle of a fight (colorblind, etc.). Thankfully, I don't play with assholes and I get my items, but the whole system is terrible for public play. Then there's also the hunt for items with chromatic fodder and Superior items... good luck getting any of those if a melee class pays attention. I really hope we get a good group of players from TL for open beta. The game is a blast when you share loot between classes and don't have to worry about ninjas. On December 10 2012 08:48 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 07:41 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 07:28 Isualin wrote:
i hate the FFA loot system too. it is too unconvenient after 200 hours of diablo 3. if i had never played d3, it would be totally acceptable though. ffa loot makes me want to play alone instead of joining parties. That's not the only problem. 1. Balance. Melee, tanky characters can easily get loots because they are closer to the monsters when they die and they can ignore monsters to pick up loots; you can't dive into a whole bunch of monsters to get loots as a ranged, squishy character. 2. Anti-cooperative play. The party is fighting monsters in a difficult area, all of a sudden a good loot dropped.... and everyone stopped fighting to go after the loot. 3. Distraction. Instead of playing the game and slaying monsters, everyone's staring at the screen without blinking just in case something valuable dropped. 4. Hacking. We all know this from D2/WoW. My understanding is that PoE is supposed to be this super hardcore ARPG that separates itself from the baby level ones (e.g. Torchlight, D3). It has a very complicated skill system, a very complicated economy, and cut-throat FFA loots. I feel that it's just way too complicated for an ARPG game, which frankly should be about mindless fun. I don't think the developers set out to make the most complicated economy or skill system. They merely appear that way when you compare them to Torchlight or D3. It's not? Then what is the purpose of designing so many different currency items except making the game arbitrarily deeper? IIRC, a lot of currency items were originally introduced to make it so leveling a new character isn't a waste of time, as you still get a good rate of currency/hour even at low levels. You can also do this with a gold-based system. I don't see how a gold-based system will not allow you to get gold while you level up a new character, unless there is some sort of resource-sink while leveling up which I am not aware of. Because you get pathetic amount of gold at lower levels which is useless to your high level character. But currency items don't follow monster levels for its chance to drop, they got same chance to drop at lvl 1 as at lvl 70 If it is possible to drop rare, high level currency item at level 1, it's actually no different from being able to get a LOT of gold at level 1.
You seem to have a false belief that gold economy > item economy. That isn't to say the reverse is true either, but both have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I prefer the item economy that we saw in D2, and am glad to see PoE utilizing one.
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I'm rolling a Witch atm and doesn't seem like any of my friends want in, so I'm gonna be going solo until perhaps the open beta. Is soloing viable or enjoyable?
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On December 10 2012 09:55 Nos- wrote:
Is soloing viable or enjoyable?
If you enjoyed D2 solo, you'll enjoy Path of Exile solo as well. One thing that PoE has that D2 didn't is the fact you can join public groups at any point, IF you end up being bored of solo play.
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On December 10 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 09:18 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 09:13 -Archangel- wrote:On December 10 2012 09:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:53 Pwere wrote:I hate the loot system as well. When a unique drops for me, I always think it's a rare for someone else if it's in the middle of a fight (colorblind, etc.). Thankfully, I don't play with assholes and I get my items, but the whole system is terrible for public play. Then there's also the hunt for items with chromatic fodder and Superior items... good luck getting any of those if a melee class pays attention. I really hope we get a good group of players from TL for open beta. The game is a blast when you share loot between classes and don't have to worry about ninjas. On December 10 2012 08:48 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 07:41 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 07:28 Isualin wrote:
i hate the FFA loot system too. it is too unconvenient after 200 hours of diablo 3. if i had never played d3, it would be totally acceptable though. ffa loot makes me want to play alone instead of joining parties. That's not the only problem. 1. Balance. Melee, tanky characters can easily get loots because they are closer to the monsters when they die and they can ignore monsters to pick up loots; you can't dive into a whole bunch of monsters to get loots as a ranged, squishy character. 2. Anti-cooperative play. The party is fighting monsters in a difficult area, all of a sudden a good loot dropped.... and everyone stopped fighting to go after the loot. 3. Distraction. Instead of playing the game and slaying monsters, everyone's staring at the screen without blinking just in case something valuable dropped. 4. Hacking. We all know this from D2/WoW. My understanding is that PoE is supposed to be this super hardcore ARPG that separates itself from the baby level ones (e.g. Torchlight, D3). It has a very complicated skill system, a very complicated economy, and cut-throat FFA loots. I feel that it's just way too complicated for an ARPG game, which frankly should be about mindless fun. I don't think the developers set out to make the most complicated economy or skill system. They merely appear that way when you compare them to Torchlight or D3. It's not? Then what is the purpose of designing so many different currency items except making the game arbitrarily deeper? IIRC, a lot of currency items were originally introduced to make it so leveling a new character isn't a waste of time, as you still get a good rate of currency/hour even at low levels. You can also do this with a gold-based system. I don't see how a gold-based system will not allow you to get gold while you level up a new character, unless there is some sort of resource-sink while leveling up which I am not aware of. Because you get pathetic amount of gold at lower levels which is useless to your high level character. But currency items don't follow monster levels for its chance to drop, they got same chance to drop at lvl 1 as at lvl 70 If it is possible to drop rare, high level currency item at level 1, it's actually no different from being able to get a LOT of gold at level 1. You seem to have a false belief that gold economy > item economy. That isn't to say the reverse is true either, but both have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I prefer the item economy that we saw in D2, and am glad to see PoE utilizing one.
The problem is that even though the item economy system worked in D2, that was 10+ years ago. Item-based economy are far more complicated because a player needs to be aware of the exchange rates of many different currency items. In a gold-based economy a player only needs to be able to compare the rarity of items against a single, numerical currency. It's also much easier to make gold-sinks than currency item sinks.
SCBW has single building selection and still became one of the most popular games at its time. But again, that was a long time ago. Back then there weren't a lot of games and players were able to put up with a lot of the anti-fun elements those older games packed. If you make a new RTS game now with something like single building selection I guarantee that very few players will enjoy it.
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I don't think you understand dude. In D3 gold is only a currency. It is in itself useless, but it is wanted by all players because if nothing else it is convertible to real money in the auction house. If it wasn't, gold would quickly become useless and we'd have a D2 situation where gold was useful only for repairs and gambling but not for batering.
PoE has a different system entirely from both D2 and D3. By having currency orbs that have a use within the game - modifying items in various ways - our currency has a use other than being a currency. That means that the player must decide to use his orbs on his own items, or attempt to trade them for other items. Take the orb of chaos. It rerolls any rare item. In practice an orb of chaos is worth a rare drop on a basetype of your choice.
Now what happens is, that new players with few orbs have very small chance of getting what they want if they attempt to roll rares, so they will buy them off older more established players who have stocks of good items they don't use. The older players will in turn use the orbs to fabricate even better items for themselves. Eventually.
This system, IMHO, kicks the living shit out of anything else on the market. Currency is useful and valuable without it being backed by a real money auction hourse.
Also RMAH is cancer, but that is a different discussion entirely.
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On December 10 2012 10:04 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 09:18 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 09:13 -Archangel- wrote:On December 10 2012 09:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:53 Pwere wrote:I hate the loot system as well. When a unique drops for me, I always think it's a rare for someone else if it's in the middle of a fight (colorblind, etc.). Thankfully, I don't play with assholes and I get my items, but the whole system is terrible for public play. Then there's also the hunt for items with chromatic fodder and Superior items... good luck getting any of those if a melee class pays attention. I really hope we get a good group of players from TL for open beta. The game is a blast when you share loot between classes and don't have to worry about ninjas. On December 10 2012 08:48 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 07:41 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 07:28 Isualin wrote:
i hate the FFA loot system too. it is too unconvenient after 200 hours of diablo 3. if i had never played d3, it would be totally acceptable though. ffa loot makes me want to play alone instead of joining parties. That's not the only problem. 1. Balance. Melee, tanky characters can easily get loots because they are closer to the monsters when they die and they can ignore monsters to pick up loots; you can't dive into a whole bunch of monsters to get loots as a ranged, squishy character. 2. Anti-cooperative play. The party is fighting monsters in a difficult area, all of a sudden a good loot dropped.... and everyone stopped fighting to go after the loot. 3. Distraction. Instead of playing the game and slaying monsters, everyone's staring at the screen without blinking just in case something valuable dropped. 4. Hacking. We all know this from D2/WoW. My understanding is that PoE is supposed to be this super hardcore ARPG that separates itself from the baby level ones (e.g. Torchlight, D3). It has a very complicated skill system, a very complicated economy, and cut-throat FFA loots. I feel that it's just way too complicated for an ARPG game, which frankly should be about mindless fun. I don't think the developers set out to make the most complicated economy or skill system. They merely appear that way when you compare them to Torchlight or D3. It's not? Then what is the purpose of designing so many different currency items except making the game arbitrarily deeper? IIRC, a lot of currency items were originally introduced to make it so leveling a new character isn't a waste of time, as you still get a good rate of currency/hour even at low levels. You can also do this with a gold-based system. I don't see how a gold-based system will not allow you to get gold while you level up a new character, unless there is some sort of resource-sink while leveling up which I am not aware of. Because you get pathetic amount of gold at lower levels which is useless to your high level character. But currency items don't follow monster levels for its chance to drop, they got same chance to drop at lvl 1 as at lvl 70 If it is possible to drop rare, high level currency item at level 1, it's actually no different from being able to get a LOT of gold at level 1. You seem to have a false belief that gold economy > item economy. That isn't to say the reverse is true either, but both have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I prefer the item economy that we saw in D2, and am glad to see PoE utilizing one. The problem is that even though the item economy system worked in D2, that was 10+ years ago. Item-based economy are far more complicated because a player needs to be aware of the exchange rates of many different currency items. In a gold-based economy a player only needs to be able to compare the rarity of items against a single, numerical currency. It's also much easier to make gold-sinks than currency item sinks. SCBW has single building selection and still became one of the most popular games at its time. But again, that was a long time ago. Back then there weren't a lot of games and players were able to put up with a lot of the anti-fun elements those older games packed. If you make a new RTS game now with something like single building selection I guarantee that very few players will enjoy it.
I disagree with that assessment, but I'm not going to convince you otherwise. Comparing game controls to a player interaction system is a bit of a stretch, although I see your general purpose. There is no practical reason to have single building selection besides making the game more mechanically demanding. Diablo 3 gets bashed more for the auction house, but I doubt I'm the only person who likes item over gold based economies. It may take a bit more effort on your part to understand, but it feels more rewarding when you trade with items. There is a marketable audience who prefers the item based system.
The item based economy isn't as complicated as you make it out to be though with orbs being the main unit of currency just as high runes were in D2. There is still one practically universal currency item that is used.
E: Read above. Beef much better at explaining things.
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It's very easy to make gold just as useful as anything else in game, and it's even easier to make gold sinks.
Consider the following system. There is gold, and there is a merchant at town which:
1. Rerolls your rare for X gold
2. Rerolls numerical values of your items for Y gold
3. Enchant a normal item into a magical item for Z gold
4. Identifies an item for W gold
etc. Obviously X and Y are much higher amount then Z and W.
This essentially mimicks the current PoE system, except simpler. Gold is useful and numerical, but you can't get items directly from gold unless you trade from another player. Now gold has value and it is universally useful.
You can criticize this system for being way too simple, but I argue that the current currency system in PoE is way too complicated - it was intentionally made complicated to cater a certain niche class of players. When a game is designed such that "fun" comes from arbitrarily increased burden of knowledge it's not a good design.
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The currency system is a good system, and whether or not you could make a better system based on gold is irrelevant. Some people are gonna scam others no matter what system you have in place, and some people are gonna waste resources in any system. It doesn't matter.
I also really don't see how the system is "intentionally complicated". You can simply use your currencies to craft your own items and progress faster, which makes sense for your first character, since you do gather items faster at higher levels, but not by a factor of 100x or more, as is the case in most gold-based systems.
You can also get a feel for how much something is worth by its apparent rarity and its effect. There's also the hidden value of white items with good sockets, as the 2nd material required to craft good items.
I guess it is a bit complex, but I also don't see how simpler you could make it without making a completely different system.
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On December 10 2012 11:54 Sufficiency wrote:
It's very easy to make gold just as useful as anything else in game, and it's even easier to make gold sinks.
Consider the following system. There is gold, and there is a merchant at town which:
1. Rerolls your rare for X gold
2. Rerolls numerical values of your items for Y gold
3. Enchant a normal item into a magical item for Z gold
4. Identifies an item for W gold
etc. Obviously X and Y are much higher amount then Z and W.
This essentially mimicks the current PoE system, except simpler. Gold is useful and numerical, but you can't get items directly from gold unless you trade from another player. Now gold has value and it is universally useful.
You can criticize this system for being way too simple, but I argue that the current currency system in PoE is way too complicated - it was intentionally made complicated to cater a certain niche class of players. When a game is designed such that "fun" comes from arbitrarily increased burden of knowledge it's not a good design.
The difference is that those gold values must be set to something unless you develop some sort of dynamic gold valuing system (which I'd argue is a waste of effort when you can just use orbs). A currency based system allows for easier fluctuations based on player input. I still standby the fact that the orb system isn't nearly as complicated as you make it out to be though, and that the developers didn't design it to be complicated. It was definitely designed this way to cater to certain players, but I wouldn't call that intentionally making it complicated.
You'd also be trashing a lot of the recipe system by exchanging the currency items for gold, but you probably think that is just another burden that isn't worth keeping around. There is a fine line between making games more enjoyable and making them so easy that they become generic garbage. You have to have some effects to differentiate your game from the others.
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On December 10 2012 09:18 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 09:13 -Archangel- wrote:On December 10 2012 09:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:53 Pwere wrote:I hate the loot system as well. When a unique drops for me, I always think it's a rare for someone else if it's in the middle of a fight (colorblind, etc.). Thankfully, I don't play with assholes and I get my items, but the whole system is terrible for public play. Then there's also the hunt for items with chromatic fodder and Superior items... good luck getting any of those if a melee class pays attention. I really hope we get a good group of players from TL for open beta. The game is a blast when you share loot between classes and don't have to worry about ninjas. On December 10 2012 08:48 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 07:41 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 07:28 Isualin wrote:
i hate the FFA loot system too. it is too unconvenient after 200 hours of diablo 3. if i had never played d3, it would be totally acceptable though. ffa loot makes me want to play alone instead of joining parties. That's not the only problem. 1. Balance. Melee, tanky characters can easily get loots because they are closer to the monsters when they die and they can ignore monsters to pick up loots; you can't dive into a whole bunch of monsters to get loots as a ranged, squishy character. 2. Anti-cooperative play. The party is fighting monsters in a difficult area, all of a sudden a good loot dropped.... and everyone stopped fighting to go after the loot. 3. Distraction. Instead of playing the game and slaying monsters, everyone's staring at the screen without blinking just in case something valuable dropped. 4. Hacking. We all know this from D2/WoW. My understanding is that PoE is supposed to be this super hardcore ARPG that separates itself from the baby level ones (e.g. Torchlight, D3). It has a very complicated skill system, a very complicated economy, and cut-throat FFA loots. I feel that it's just way too complicated for an ARPG game, which frankly should be about mindless fun. I don't think the developers set out to make the most complicated economy or skill system. They merely appear that way when you compare them to Torchlight or D3. It's not? Then what is the purpose of designing so many different currency items except making the game arbitrarily deeper? IIRC, a lot of currency items were originally introduced to make it so leveling a new character isn't a waste of time, as you still get a good rate of currency/hour even at low levels. You can also do this with a gold-based system. I don't see how a gold-based system will not allow you to get gold while you level up a new character, unless there is some sort of resource-sink while leveling up which I am not aware of. Because you get pathetic amount of gold at lower levels which is useless to your high level character. But currency items don't follow monster levels for its chance to drop, they got same chance to drop at lvl 1 as at lvl 70 If it is possible to drop rare, high level currency item at level 1, it's actually no different from being able to get a LOT of gold at level 1.
It is very different. If you would get a lot of gold at level 1 that would unbalance economy with your 1st character as well.
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The chances of getting an exalted orb drop at low level is very very rare. It happens, but you do not kills that many monsters at low level. I would guess that >99% of all the monsters I have killed has been at high level, once I get efficient AoE. And I have had maybe 4 or 5 exalted drops in the least year. One person might get lucky at low level, but it is extremely rare.
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On December 10 2012 10:04 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 09:18 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 09:13 -Archangel- wrote:On December 10 2012 09:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:53 Pwere wrote:I hate the loot system as well. When a unique drops for me, I always think it's a rare for someone else if it's in the middle of a fight (colorblind, etc.). Thankfully, I don't play with assholes and I get my items, but the whole system is terrible for public play. Then there's also the hunt for items with chromatic fodder and Superior items... good luck getting any of those if a melee class pays attention. I really hope we get a good group of players from TL for open beta. The game is a blast when you share loot between classes and don't have to worry about ninjas. On December 10 2012 08:48 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 08:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 10 2012 07:41 Sufficiency wrote:On December 10 2012 07:28 Isualin wrote:
i hate the FFA loot system too. it is too unconvenient after 200 hours of diablo 3. if i had never played d3, it would be totally acceptable though. ffa loot makes me want to play alone instead of joining parties. That's not the only problem. 1. Balance. Melee, tanky characters can easily get loots because they are closer to the monsters when they die and they can ignore monsters to pick up loots; you can't dive into a whole bunch of monsters to get loots as a ranged, squishy character. 2. Anti-cooperative play. The party is fighting monsters in a difficult area, all of a sudden a good loot dropped.... and everyone stopped fighting to go after the loot. 3. Distraction. Instead of playing the game and slaying monsters, everyone's staring at the screen without blinking just in case something valuable dropped. 4. Hacking. We all know this from D2/WoW. My understanding is that PoE is supposed to be this super hardcore ARPG that separates itself from the baby level ones (e.g. Torchlight, D3). It has a very complicated skill system, a very complicated economy, and cut-throat FFA loots. I feel that it's just way too complicated for an ARPG game, which frankly should be about mindless fun. I don't think the developers set out to make the most complicated economy or skill system. They merely appear that way when you compare them to Torchlight or D3. It's not? Then what is the purpose of designing so many different currency items except making the game arbitrarily deeper? IIRC, a lot of currency items were originally introduced to make it so leveling a new character isn't a waste of time, as you still get a good rate of currency/hour even at low levels. You can also do this with a gold-based system. I don't see how a gold-based system will not allow you to get gold while you level up a new character, unless there is some sort of resource-sink while leveling up which I am not aware of. Because you get pathetic amount of gold at lower levels which is useless to your high level character. But currency items don't follow monster levels for its chance to drop, they got same chance to drop at lvl 1 as at lvl 70 If it is possible to drop rare, high level currency item at level 1, it's actually no different from being able to get a LOT of gold at level 1. You seem to have a false belief that gold economy > item economy. That isn't to say the reverse is true either, but both have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I prefer the item economy that we saw in D2, and am glad to see PoE utilizing one. The problem is that even though the item economy system worked in D2, that was 10+ years ago. Item-based economy are far more complicated because a player needs to be aware of the exchange rates of many different currency items. In a gold-based economy a player only needs to be able to compare the rarity of items against a single, numerical currency. It's also much easier to make gold-sinks than currency item sinks. SCBW has single building selection and still became one of the most popular games at its time. But again, that was a long time ago. Back then there weren't a lot of games and players were able to put up with a lot of the anti-fun elements those older games packed. If you make a new RTS game now with something like single building selection I guarantee that very few players will enjoy it.
I disagree with one thing, this was not anti-fun element. At general people are quick to say trading in D2 and or lack of multiple building selections in BW were anti-fun mechanics/gameplay.
I don't recall such feeling 10 years ago. It is only and only an artificially created arbitrary statement that these mechanics are anti-fun/outdated just because they are not used nowadays it does not mean they are obsolete. The idea of intended restrictions is a core idea of any game, it is just need to be done cleverly to attract masses, PoE is doing fine with it.
Just to note, im not saying everyone loved it, but i'm saying many people loved it and many people hated it, similarly to how everyone is split when it comes to AH/MBS (D3/SC2), which are new systems that "should" be theoretically far better "without a question".
And also back then there were MORE valuable games with bigger variety of genres, and generally they were more innovative aswell as you didnt have to make it a console port and botch half of the game by doing so.
When was the last time you saw AAA simulator for example(popular genre in 90s)? Games like Black&White, Max Payne, Homeworld or even Dungeon Siege (which was a mediocre game) pushed their respective genres to new directions i can give you at least dozen things that these games brought to the gaming. And im not touching even the core of 90s as the whole idea of gaming nowadays would crumble in its boredom. So far what i've seen in last couple of years the advacement in technology put more restrictions on gameplay while giving more leeway on UI/social mechanics(forget about bnet 2.0 lol), but because of broken gameplay the UI is also faltering.
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On December 10 2012 10:39 beef42 wrote:
I don't think you understand dude. In D3 gold is only a currency. It is in itself useless, but it is wanted by all players because if nothing else it is convertible to real money in the auction house. If it wasn't, gold would quickly become useless and we'd have a D2 situation where gold was useful only for repairs and gambling but not for batering.
PoE has a different system entirely from both D2 and D3. By having currency orbs that have a use within the game - modifying items in various ways - our currency has a use other than being a currency. That means that the player must decide to use his orbs on his own items, or attempt to trade them for other items. Take the orb of chaos. It rerolls any rare item. In practice an orb of chaos is worth a rare drop on a basetype of your choice.
Now what happens is, that new players with few orbs have very small chance of getting what they want if they attempt to roll rares, so they will buy them off older more established players who have stocks of good items they don't use. The older players will in turn use the orbs to fabricate even better items for themselves. Eventually.
This system, IMHO, kicks the living shit out of anything else on the market. Currency is useful and valuable without it being backed by a real money auction hourse.
Also RMAH is cancer, but that is a different discussion entirely.
This, this and this x 100.
I also think PoE is heavily favoured towards solo play. Nobody's gonna play in a party with the horror FFA loot and such.
We should also try to party together(TL group or something) when OB comes out, to help each other out.
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On December 10 2012 12:45 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 11:54 Sufficiency wrote:
It's very easy to make gold just as useful as anything else in game, and it's even easier to make gold sinks.
Consider the following system. There is gold, and there is a merchant at town which:
1. Rerolls your rare for X gold
2. Rerolls numerical values of your items for Y gold
3. Enchant a normal item into a magical item for Z gold
4. Identifies an item for W gold
etc. Obviously X and Y are much higher amount then Z and W.
This essentially mimicks the current PoE system, except simpler. Gold is useful and numerical, but you can't get items directly from gold unless you trade from another player. Now gold has value and it is universally useful.
You can criticize this system for being way too simple, but I argue that the current currency system in PoE is way too complicated - it was intentionally made complicated to cater a certain niche class of players. When a game is designed such that "fun" comes from arbitrarily increased burden of knowledge it's not a good design. The difference is that those gold values must be set to something unless you develop some sort of dynamic gold valuing system (which I'd argue is a waste of effort when you can just use orbs). A currency based system allows for easier fluctuations based on player input. I still standby the fact that the orb system isn't nearly as complicated as you make it out to be though, and that the developers didn't design it to be complicated. It was definitely designed this way to cater to certain players, but I wouldn't call that intentionally making it complicated. You'd also be trashing a lot of the recipe system by exchanging the currency items for gold, but you probably think that is just another burden that isn't worth keeping around. There is a fine line between making games more enjoyable and making them so easy that they become generic garbage. You have to have some effects to differentiate your game from the others.
Sure, if you think dynamic fluctuation is important and healthy for the game, make it that the currency items exist, but can be traded with gold. It's still simple enough to be grasped by all players and will allow dynamic price fluctuation.
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EPT
