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On July 28 2017 02:14 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 01:34 HolydaKing wrote:
Until now EE wasn't good with Wild Strike, dunno if that changes with 3.0. Assuming you don't run sources of flat elemental damage (which is probably a mistake but for the sake of argument), EE sounds quite fine on wildstrike. 2/3 of the time enemies have -50% res, and 1/3 of the time enemies have +25% res for an average of -25% res I believe. Now, you can't run heralds, ele auras or flat on any jewellery in that situation because those would ruin the EE math, but it's at least an interesting thought. Not worth though.
you are correct it's an average of -25% but it will only be -25% on the 2nd or later hit, which is another downside
assuming his build does follow what he set out and he is able to get jewelry thats similar to what he sets out to get (a pretty lofty goal...), I think it looks pretty nice for a wildstrike build
but it looks more like an "end of league" build to me
to me, with what we know right now, it looks like the strongest builds coming in for HC will be ED, sunder, RF, EK nova
with some possible mine/trap shenanigans as outliers
I will be playing a ST build anyways, just because
though honestly from my beta experience I am pretty worried about just getting through the normal content...
getting to maps seems about a thousand times harder than in 2.6 if you aren't playing the left side of the tree
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oh i always entirely disregard archangel builds he plays pob not poe but I was talking about the viability of that particular interaction
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Hmm, I wonder how bad elemental reflect is if you go Slayer and do mostly elemental damage through phys to lightning conversion and stuff like hatred/HoA. It seems dumb since Slayer solves phys reflect problems but scaling ele dmg seems so much easier. Still Slayer seems cool for the Onslaught, the AoE and especially the leech and culling. Probably gonna die ele reflect rares pretty often though.
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On July 28 2017 02:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
oh i always entirely disregard archangel builds he plays pob not poe but I was talking about the viability of that particular interaction
Wtf. I try to find builds I can play. I put them together in PoB first so I don't waste time leveling characters for 30h before I figure out they suck.
I do play builds that look good and you guys don't destroy them here (which sometimes changes them and sometimes buries them)
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Mhm, the Turmoil HC could still get a bit awkward. I chilled for almost a week when #1 was out of reach and now the standing looks like this. Could become a sweet three-way race during the weekend, luckily the guy behind me plays ED though.
On July 28 2017 03:57 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 02:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
oh i always entirely disregard archangel builds he plays pob not poe but I was talking about the viability of that particular interaction Wtf. I try to find builds I can play. I put them together in PoB first so I don't waste time leveling characters for 30h before I figure out they suck. I do play builds that look good and you guys don't destroy them here (which sometimes changes them and sometimes buries them)
To be frank it's pretty hard to make builds that genuinely suck nowadays. Think about it, most of what you're looking at excludes shield charge setups and relies on running fast with a quicksilver. At that point there are a *lot* of competitive builds and the details start to matter less.
You could most likely pick any non-shit-tier skill, make a reasonable build around it and do fine at that pace. Suddenly main questions are things like affordability in general, pacing (how strong your build is at which point in time with how much currency input) or even just playstyle - this stuff means a lot more than +/-20% PoB dps.
The biggest critique from that angle would be to slow down a bit in this regard, you can't exactly call someones build 'unrealistic' because he uses three offensive flasks and then link your Doryani's Skin of the Loyal with all rares having T1 life/str right after while the generic topic is "first builds for a fresh league".
Pick a skill that you think looks enjoyable, make a sensible tree around it and then PoB the gems to make sure you didn't fuck up or pick something terrible. Imo PoB is a great tool to minmax or refine one specific build but it can sometimes be a bit awkward when comparing different builds, especially once people start going deeper into seeing only DPS.
If you do care about making genuinely strong/op builds most of the time you need *just enough* DPS to obliterate content and then you start scaling attackspeed/movespeed to get from pack to pack faster. The major alternative to that are usually builds that don't do this but go all in for DPS with Vaal Pact or safety (ED) instead to become extremely strong both killers.
The vast majority of builds are somewhere in between but at least I usually judge builds by that metric. So if you'd be like "I want to do Guardians and Shaper next league" then the tooltip warrioring would suddenly be a lot more acceptable, for a 'generic mapping build' you tend to make sacrifices that I'd argue cost more than they bring to the table.
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On July 28 2017 01:34 HolydaKing wrote:
Archangel your build uses basically BIS rings/amulet and dual curses make your dps seem much higher than it often is (curse mod maps, bosses). Also 7% Life jewels with those stats gonna be hard to get. Not picking Quick Recovery seems weird too.
Until now EE wasn't good with Wild Strike, dunno if that changes with 3.0.
Ok I overdid rings and amulet a bit. Even if I remove some of the mods it can do well. I need defense more than offense with this build as max damage is so good.
As for dual curse, well I need assassin mark for PC generation. The other curse will probably end us as enfeeble anyways unless I run maps where they get bonus resistances.
7 or 6% life will do and you can usually get at least one other good stat. Since I pick up and sell lots or rare items I can usually alt my own jewels with 2 good stats.
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@travis I think just overleveling content more than usual and good ol decoy totem will handle everything. decoy breaks a lot of the fights
@holy With pantheon power, 10% reduced ele reflect taken from Primeval Force, and balanced resist wise oak I think you'll be fine. having some evasion or dodge helps with reflect too
I like seeing arch builds just to see wider variety of things, despite their jank. mjolner shocknova?? :p
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To me personally Decoy totem existing is by far the strongest argument to not play Totem builds. I'm really a bit stuck right now in terms of 3.0, so many amazing day 1 builds but not that many cool second builds that come to mind.
Also have to keep in mind both the boss HP increase and GGG claiming they'll shake up the Atlas. I'm really not sure if there even are similarly strong all-rounders for the first day like SRS, Sunder or Totem builds.
inb4 Sunder MoM Slayer.
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On July 28 2017 04:52 r.Evo wrote:Mhm, the Turmoil HC could still get a bit awkward. I chilled for almost a week when #1 was out of reach and now the standing looks like this. Could become a sweet three-way race during the weekend, luckily the guy behind me plays ED though. Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 03:57 -Archangel- wrote:On July 28 2017 02:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
oh i always entirely disregard archangel builds he plays pob not poe but I was talking about the viability of that particular interaction Wtf. I try to find builds I can play. I put them together in PoB first so I don't waste time leveling characters for 30h before I figure out they suck. I do play builds that look good and you guys don't destroy them here (which sometimes changes them and sometimes buries them) To be frank it's pretty hard to make builds that genuinely suck nowadays. Think about it, most of what you're looking at excludes shield charge setups and relies on running fast with a quicksilver. At that point there are a *lot* of competitive builds and the details start to matter less. You could most likely pick any non-shit-tier skill, make a reasonable build around it and do fine at that pace. Suddenly main questions are things like affordability in general, pacing (how strong your build is at which point in time with how much currency input) or even just playstyle - this stuff means a lot more than +/-20% PoB dps. The biggest critique from that angle would be to slow down a bit in this regard, you can't exactly call someones build 'unrealistic' because he uses three offensive flasks and then link your Doryani's Skin of the Loyal with all rares having T1 life/str right after while the generic topic is "first builds for a fresh league". Pick a skill that you think looks enjoyable, make a sensible tree around it and then PoB the gems to make sure you didn't fuck up or pick something terrible. Imo PoB is a great tool to minmax or refine one specific build but it can sometimes be a bit awkward when comparing different builds, especially once people start going deeper into seeing only DPS. If you do care about making genuinely strong/op builds most of the time you need *just enough* DPS to obliterate content and then you start scaling attackspeed/movespeed to get from pack to pack faster. The major alternative to that are usually builds that don't do this but go all in for DPS with Vaal Pact or safety (ED) instead to become extremely strong both killers. The vast majority of builds are somewhere in between but at least I usually judge builds by that metric. So if you'd be like "I want to do Guardians and Shaper next league" then the tooltip warrioring would suddenly be a lot more acceptable, for a 'generic mapping build' you tend to make sacrifices that I'd argue cost more than they bring to the table.
Depends on what you consider suck. For me that would be a build that makes me die too often in high yellow maps or low red maps (those I mostly run when collecting loot for chaos recipe or just useful stuff). Or a build that is way too slow and struggles even before high maps (like my CA build did during 1 week Legacy race whenever Beyond monsters would spawn).
Now I look at builds that let me do multiple 100k dps with top gear. Then I know that when downscaled I will still do 50k or 100k. CA build did like 30k at best and that just didn't work.
Yes when I post PoB links they usually have top tier mods, because when I put them together I need to know what it looks like if I wanted to take the build to end end game and finish all content. It is easier then to cut down all offense by 25% and say that is OK or not OK. Also most of my builds are very experimental because I like to find new stuff and try new stuff.
I really don't post the DPS numbers to brag, you all might have misunderstood me. I post them so you people with more experience in endgame can tell me what this build sucks at so I can try to fix it or find another one.
And I am a bit enthusiastic when I find something cool, melee Necro that also does good damage and has high life. I didn't ever expect to be able to get these numbers with this combination.
When I said build does 760 000 single target DPS I don't really know if that lets me kill tough enemies fast enough, especially when I take off 25% from it or even 50% due to less than perfect gear.
As for me commenting other's builds, well I think it is always more useful to find something wrong with it, even if it is minor then just say all is OK. Yea having 3 offense potions might be OK some of the time, maybe even most of the time if the build is especially safe but it is still less standard and makes character more vulnerable so yea it is this one minor thing that can be mentioned.
Anyways I appreciate any tips and comments any of your always give about my builds. More brains are always better than one and this topic is more active than PoE topics in other places including poe reddit.
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Does Bloodrage actually drain mana in 3.0 if you pick MoM like PoB says? It makes sense I guess. Would make it kinda hard to get positive mana regen with a melee char that goes MoM though if you run Blood Rage like I always do (unless Raider).
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On July 28 2017 06:17 HolydaKing wrote:
Does Bloodrage actually drain mana in 3.0 if you pick MoM like PoB says? It makes sense I guess. Would make it kinda hard to get positive mana regen with a melee char that goes MoM though if you run Blood Rage like I always do (unless Raider).
I makes sense that it would drain it. Getting that pantheon ability where dots do less damage to you might help. Or just get more mana regen.
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On July 28 2017 06:20 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 06:17 HolydaKing wrote:
Does Bloodrage actually drain mana in 3.0 if you pick MoM like PoB says? It makes sense I guess. Would make it kinda hard to get positive mana regen with a melee char that goes MoM though if you run Blood Rage like I always do (unless Raider). I makes sense that it would drain it. Getting that pantheon ability where dots do less damage to you might help. Or just get more mana regen.
I mean you would sustain mana by leeching, but having negative regen could be quite the killer. :D Huge smash, out of mana.... woops, cant use skills.
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On July 28 2017 02:24 travis wrote:
to me, with what we know right now, it looks like the strongest builds coming in for HC will be ED, sunder, RF, EK nova
with some possible mine/trap shenanigans as outliers
srs tho
Caustic arrow should also be good, but I think killing map bosses would require expensive gear.
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On July 28 2017 06:23 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 06:20 -Archangel- wrote:On July 28 2017 06:17 HolydaKing wrote:
Does Bloodrage actually drain mana in 3.0 if you pick MoM like PoB says? It makes sense I guess. Would make it kinda hard to get positive mana regen with a melee char that goes MoM though if you run Blood Rage like I always do (unless Raider). I makes sense that it would drain it. Getting that pantheon ability where dots do less damage to you might help. Or just get more mana regen. I mean you would sustain mana by leeching, but having negative regen could be quite the killer. :D Huge smash, out of mana.... woops, cant use skills.
Yea something like that. But going MoM without having good mana regen is a big NoNo.
Also going MoM without your available mana pool being 40% or more of your max life. You never want to get hit by big attacks that leave you at 0 mana. PoE wiki says when using basic MoM you need 40% to never lose all mana from big hits. If at that point you also lose all mana you just got one hit and it does not matter anymore :D
This is also a reason why the Scourge Necro I linked is not MoM in the end. I could not get the mana pool big enough to avoid being at 0 mana too often.
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On July 28 2017 06:17 HolydaKing wrote:
Does Bloodrage actually drain mana in 3.0 if you pick MoM like PoB says? It makes sense I guess. Would make it kinda hard to get positive mana regen with a melee char that goes MoM though if you run Blood Rage like I always do (unless Raider).
seems it does. tested it on my inquisitor which has MoM. can't say how bad it is, have like 40 mana regen and it flickers between full and losing one mana. If you're at MoM you probably get Quick recovery as well so I think you're fine
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You could deal with the blood rage with chaos resist but yeah that would kill a lot of the regen.
it's going to be like ~50-100 of your regen, typically
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On July 28 2017 06:03 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 04:52 r.Evo wrote:Mhm, the Turmoil HC could still get a bit awkward. I chilled for almost a week when #1 was out of reach and now the standing looks like this. Could become a sweet three-way race during the weekend, luckily the guy behind me plays ED though. On July 28 2017 03:57 -Archangel- wrote:On July 28 2017 02:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
oh i always entirely disregard archangel builds he plays pob not poe but I was talking about the viability of that particular interaction Wtf. I try to find builds I can play. I put them together in PoB first so I don't waste time leveling characters for 30h before I figure out they suck. I do play builds that look good and you guys don't destroy them here (which sometimes changes them and sometimes buries them) To be frank it's pretty hard to make builds that genuinely suck nowadays. Think about it, most of what you're looking at excludes shield charge setups and relies on running fast with a quicksilver. At that point there are a *lot* of competitive builds and the details start to matter less. You could most likely pick any non-shit-tier skill, make a reasonable build around it and do fine at that pace. Suddenly main questions are things like affordability in general, pacing (how strong your build is at which point in time with how much currency input) or even just playstyle - this stuff means a lot more than +/-20% PoB dps. The biggest critique from that angle would be to slow down a bit in this regard, you can't exactly call someones build 'unrealistic' because he uses three offensive flasks and then link your Doryani's Skin of the Loyal with all rares having T1 life/str right after while the generic topic is "first builds for a fresh league". Pick a skill that you think looks enjoyable, make a sensible tree around it and then PoB the gems to make sure you didn't fuck up or pick something terrible. Imo PoB is a great tool to minmax or refine one specific build but it can sometimes be a bit awkward when comparing different builds, especially once people start going deeper into seeing only DPS. If you do care about making genuinely strong/op builds most of the time you need *just enough* DPS to obliterate content and then you start scaling attackspeed/movespeed to get from pack to pack faster. The major alternative to that are usually builds that don't do this but go all in for DPS with Vaal Pact or safety (ED) instead to become extremely strong both killers. The vast majority of builds are somewhere in between but at least I usually judge builds by that metric. So if you'd be like "I want to do Guardians and Shaper next league" then the tooltip warrioring would suddenly be a lot more acceptable, for a 'generic mapping build' you tend to make sacrifices that I'd argue cost more than they bring to the table. Depends on what you consider suck. For me that would be a build that makes me die too often in high yellow maps or low red maps (those I mostly run when collecting loot for chaos recipe or just useful stuff). Or a build that is way too slow and struggles even before high maps (like my CA build did during 1 week Legacy race whenever Beyond monsters would spawn). Now I look at builds that let me do multiple 100k dps with top gear. Then I know that when downscaled I will still do 50k or 100k. CA build did like 30k at best and that just didn't work.
Yeah, those are all fair enough points, I'll cut quotes down a bit for readability.
What you need to keep in mind is that there is a massive difference between Phys, Ele and Chaos DPS in practice. I'm also not sure if I'm alone here but for me PoB numbers are unreliable in the sense that they rarely tell the full story. Let's take CA for example. A few leagues back I played a CA Occultist (PoB link here) and was absolutely satisfied with it for high yellows/low reds/Uberlab specifically. I ended up making minor changes to spec it into ED which pushed damage up by like 25-30% maybe but in practice made it worse for Uberlabs (weaker AoE clear) and stopped playing the char.
DPS? 22k with ED and 20k with Decay.
That's why my first thought when I read "My CA build had 30k DPS and sucked" is that the person just didn't build it well. Maybe Witchfire wasn't around, maybe tree wasn't optimal, maybe Wither Totem wasn't used for singletarget, maybe Frenzy wasn't used (in the case of CA, not ED obviously) - maybe the person chose to pick a +2 bow over a Decay one.
The build linked above was perfectly fine towards 90s, an extremely reliable Uberlab farmer albeit a bit slow (~8 min runs, wtb leapslam) and would have worked in Legacy just the same.
CA is definitely in the tier of "non-shit skills" that I referred to, if you build around it smartly it can push into red maps just fine.
Yes when I post PoB links they usually have top tier mods, because when I put them together I need to know what it looks like if I wanted to take the build to end end game and finish all content. It is easier then to cut down all offense by 25% and say that is OK or not OK. Also most of my builds are very experimental because I like to find new stuff and try new stuff.
Builds need to work in overall reasonable smooth curves so using top tier mods can quickly give a wrong impression. If a build with 1-2 exalt investment can perform well as a leaguestarter then it becoming way stronger with 10 exalt investment is true for the vast majority of cases. In practice those are just two different directions to work towards the same result but I'd argue assuming high-end gear screws you over more often than assuming low-end budget options.
Unless you are trying to make something that you understand to be expensive, then go nuts by all means.
I really don't post the DPS numbers to brag, you all might have misunderstood me. I post them so you people with more experience in endgame can tell me what this build sucks at so I can try to fix it or find another one.
And I am a bit enthusiastic when I find something cool, melee Necro that also does good damage and has high life. I didn't ever expect to be able to get these numbers with this combination.
When I said build does 760 000 single target DPS I don't really know if that lets me kill tough enemies fast enough, especially when I take off 25% from it or even 50% due to less than perfect gear.
For reference, something along the lines of 80k-140k per totem for example in a totem build is totally fine, that's around what I'm planning for 3.0 - another reference point could be my current Turmoil EK Nova char (PoB link here). 120k DPS, abso-fucking-lutely fine to spam Shaped Strands or Shores quickly. Worst case if I'm against Enfeeble+Mob life swapping in a Poison Gem over Faster Proj does the trick.
See where I'm coming from? When I read "multiple 100k dps" and then see concessions made in terms of clearspeed (e.g. Shield Charge not being around) I'm already highly skeptical unless the build is designed to kill bosses and push for Shaper.
To me a strong league starter needs to:
- a) Not fight for costly uniques or work well without them.
- b) Progress smoothly (SRS is the perfect example of a skill with a crazy smooth and cheap curve from 3L to 4L to 5L and even 6L+Baron).
- c) Clear Atlas reasonably easy, this means being able to deal with some awkward layouts, potentially bullshit bosses and similar things. Also included here is handling GGG curveballs in general. If 3.0 comes out and they gate maps behind A10 or plant bullshit bosses in early maps the build has to be strong enough at what amounts to shit levels of gear to handle that.
- d) Turn into something useful endgame, whether that is farming maps fast up to Shaped T13/15, Uber Lab, bossing, anything like that.
A strong build that's not specifically a leaguestarter basically starts at d) and/or how fun it looks to play. And no, hundreds of thousands of dps are usually not needed in that category. At least not until we're talking Guardians and Shaper specifically.
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On July 28 2017 07:10 travis wrote:
You could deal with the blood rage with chaos resist but yeah that would kill a lot of the regen.
it's going to be like ~50-100 of your regen, typically
Blood Rage is phys degen as of 2.0. Endurance Charges e.g. help. Armour doesn't though since that only mitigates hits.
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EPT
