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Do not turn this into a (insert game here) vs. LoL argument. It's about LoL and Riot's success, which is great for ESPORTS. - Jibba |
On July 28 2011 11:24 locodoco wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Locodoco (11:19): yo
callmevigoss (11:19): sup
Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol?
callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder
Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why?
callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork
hon can 1 v 3
if ur fed
lol
lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff
so u acnt really 1 v 3
Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit
lane phase is more "focused"
callmevigoss (11:21): lol
its like last hitting
thats it
Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways?
i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon
callmevigoss (11:22): nah
lol tournament is like
5-10 times more #$
lol
Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz
callmevigoss (11:22): lol callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~
Locodoco telling us wat's up!
It makes sense though. In DotA and HoN, levels and farm continue to scale for a lot longer, while in LoL the maximum level and farm are approached much quicker. This way, the focus for LoL is much different than in DotA/HoN
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On July 28 2011 13:16 Thereisnosaurus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sum IP of all current heroes: 284,700
Average IP per game: 100
284,700/100 = 2847 games
Each game is around about 30 minutes long not including queue times.
2847 x 30
=
85410 minutes
1423.5 hours
59.3125 days
In order to unlock just the champions I need to play almost 60 days not including queue times which of course are very short. If you're going about systematically acquiring all heroes, you can divide this in two because all heroes rotate through a 50% off sale period. Further, if you're realistically going to play the game you don't want/need all heroes because going in virginal in a decent level game will lose you that game. You need to play a hero at least 4-5 times before you're vaguely competent, and it will usually take you a few games to re-acclimatize to a char until you have 30-50+ games with that char. So lets say you go for a more manageable upper end of 20 heroes, still ridiculous, I've never seen a pro use more than a roster of 10, even when they're using tourney accounts with all champs unlocked. but let's be generous to your argument. 20 champs, 50% 6300, 50% 3150, none of the cheap ones. 94,500 IP (/2 for sales) = 47, 250 IP so about 10 days played to get yourself a full roster of champs, not much more than leveling a WoW char to be ready to attempt top tier PVP or raiding, not much more than it takes to hit plat or so for a SC2 rookie. Though, honestly, the real cost of having such a deep roster is getting a full set of runes for every scenario. There's a lot of overlap, but most champions have a particular set that they need to be optimised that most others don't share and with a roster as deep as 20 you're going to need most. Still, it's fairly clear you don't know what you're talking about. Even if you do go about the ludicrous task of unlocking every champ through IP alone, it'll only take half as long as you suggest.
Champs don't go on IP sales, only RP sales. So no, the time will not be "halved".
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On July 28 2011 13:16 Thereisnosaurus wrote:Show nested quote +Sum IP of all current heroes: 284,700
Average IP per game: 100
284,700/100 = 2847 games
Each game is around about 30 minutes long not including queue times.
2847 x 30
=
85410 minutes
1423.5 hours
59.3125 days
In order to unlock just the champions I need to play almost 60 days not including queue times which of course are very short. If you're going about systematically acquiring all heroes, you can divide this in two because all heroes rotate through a 50% off sale period. Further, if you're realistically going to play the game you don't want/need all heroes because going in virginal in a decent level game will lose you that game. You need to play a hero at least 4-5 times before you're vaguely competent, and it will usually take you a few games to re-acclimatize to a char until you have 30-50+ games with that char. So lets say you go for a more manageable upper end of 20 heroes, still ridiculous, I've never seen a pro use more than a roster of 10, even when they're using tourney accounts with all champs unlocked. but let's be generous to your argument. 20 champs, 50% 6300, 50% 3150, none of the cheap ones. 94,500 IP (/2 for sales) = 47, 250 IP so about 10 days played to get yourself a full roster of champs, not much more than leveling a WoW char to be ready to attempt top tier PVP or raiding, not much more than it takes to hit plat or so for a SC2 rookie. Though, honestly, the real cost of having such a deep roster is getting a full set of runes for every scenario. There's a lot of overlap, but most champions have a particular set that they need to be optimised that most others don't share and with a roster as deep as 20 you're going to need most. Still, it's fairly clear you don't know what you're talking about. Even if you do go about the ludicrous task of unlocking every champ through IP alone, it'll only take half as long as you suggest.
You're confused I think, you divided the IP values by 2 but that makes no sense because sales to don't apply to IP, only RP. So unless they've changed something recently, it's more apt to say you're the one who "doesn't know what they're talking about".
His actual reasoning was pretty decent, sure you don't need every champion but as far as fun goes, I'd like most of them because I like variety, as far as competitive play goes, I'm not sure if this is even a real issue. Over a thousand games played, spent 35 dollars on the game and still found myself regularly saving up to get champions and being unable to keep up with the releases I wanted. The model just doesn't suit me I guess, I'd much prefer a standard unlock price.
But yeah, your reasoning is dead wrong.
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huh? I swear I got a champ for half off IP at some point. they use RP to announce the sale, but if you buy it with IP it costs half as much as well, though I admit I can't be certain.
edit: so yeah, redface time. Still, it doesn't take a ridiculous time to unlock a decent roster, and I guess the sales are still kinda handy if you're willing to fork out the cash. Runes are still the bitch, and you can still play decently without them. It's the one part of the system I dislike, runes cost far too much IP for it to be viable to get a decent set for a good roster without spending quite a lot of money.
Honestly, there's like 60 champs, I get plenty of fun learning 10 with 60-70+ lane matchups and then just playing the others during free week to get a feel for them. The system is great for me, I don't know why people want to have all the champs, it seems like a waste of effort and/or money. No way you'd use them all.
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On July 28 2011 13:33 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
huh? I swear I got a champ for half off IP at some point. they use RP to announce the sale, but if you buy it with IP it costs half as much as well, though I admit I can't be certain.
No, you're mistaken. Unless you got by on a glitch somehow, I'm pretty certain you just messed up the math somehow. You were quite aggressive with your, "You don't know what you're talking about" but yeah... IP costs don't get reduced by sales.
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HoN and DotA emphasize mechanics and quick, on-your-feet-thinking more while LoL emphasizes strategy and decision making. Beginners find LoL easier because mechanics and such can be easily identified.
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On July 28 2011 13:38 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
HoN and DotA emphasize mechanics and quick, on-your-feet-thinking more while LoL emphasizes strategy and decision making. Beginners find LoL easier because mechanics and such can be easily identified.
See, I disagree there... I don't see how strategy and decision making is really more emphasized in LoL, it sort of seems that way because the other aspects have slightly less depth.
On a fundamental level, ignoring the nature of physical sports and it's near unlimited competitive skill-cap, let's say you had regular basketball and just a game of penalty shots, you could say that aim is emphasized more in the latter but that's only because of the absence of anything else. I'm not trying to say that there's nothing else to LoL, but I don't think any of these elements are "Deeper" in LoL, they're merely more emphasized because the other elements are shallower.
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On July 28 2011 13:38 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
HoN and DotA emphasize mechanics and quick, on-your-feet-thinking more while LoL emphasizes strategy and decision making. Beginners find LoL easier because mechanics and such can be easily identified.
Bad generalization. There is as much strategy and decision making in HoN and DotA as in LoL, but the approach to thinking is different because of the difference in gameplay for all 3 games.
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On July 28 2011 13:21 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 11:24 locodoco wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Locodoco (11:19): yo
callmevigoss (11:19): sup
Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol?
callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder
Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why?
callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork
hon can 1 v 3
if ur fed
lol
lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff
so u acnt really 1 v 3
Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit
lane phase is more "focused"
callmevigoss (11:21): lol
its like last hitting
thats it
Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways?
i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon
callmevigoss (11:22): nah
lol tournament is like
5-10 times more #$
lol
Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz
callmevigoss (11:22): lol callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~ Locodoco telling us wat's up! It makes sense though. In DotA and HoN, levels and farm continue to scale for a lot longer, while in LoL the maximum level and farm are approached much quicker. This way, the focus for LoL is much different than in DotA/HoN
More people need to recognize this. A pro DotA/HoN player calling LoL more difficult. One person's opinion isn't proof, but a pro saying this compared to a bunch of people who didn't hit level 5 calling LoL shit and HoN/DotA the best puts things in perspective.
Anyone who's bashing LoL in this thread should read what Loco brought up and consider it.
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LoL is a good casual game but I don't think it has the same skill level that sc does.
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On July 28 2011 11:24 locodoco wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Locodoco (11:19): yo
callmevigoss (11:19): sup
Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol?
callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder
Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why?
callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork
hon can 1 v 3
if ur fed
lol
lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff
so u acnt really 1 v 3
Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit
lane phase is more "focused"
callmevigoss (11:21): lol
its like last hitting
thats it
Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways?
i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon
callmevigoss (11:22): nah
lol tournament is like
5-10 times more #$
lol
Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz
callmevigoss (11:22): lol callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~
Use of the acronym Laugh Out Loud should be banned in all conversations related to League of Legends. Perhaps (as a certain Mr. Martin has suggested) it would be best to use LQTM - Laughing Quietly to Myself; no confusion, and more honest.
I played a ton of DOTA way back in the day, though no experience with HoN, and it confused me to see debates on comparative game difficulty, as they felt pretty damn similar to me. Good to get a pro player's opinion on it.
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On July 28 2011 13:51 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 13:21 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 28 2011 11:24 locodoco wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Locodoco (11:19): yo
callmevigoss (11:19): sup
Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol?
callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder
Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why?
callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork
hon can 1 v 3
if ur fed
lol
lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff
so u acnt really 1 v 3
Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit
lane phase is more "focused"
callmevigoss (11:21): lol
its like last hitting
thats it
Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways?
i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon
callmevigoss (11:22): nah
lol tournament is like
5-10 times more #$
lol
Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz
callmevigoss (11:22): lol callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~ Locodoco telling us wat's up! It makes sense though. In DotA and HoN, levels and farm continue to scale for a lot longer, while in LoL the maximum level and farm are approached much quicker. This way, the focus for LoL is much different than in DotA/HoN More people need to recognize this. A pro DotA/HoN player calling LoL more difficult. One person's opinion isn't proof, but a pro saying this compared to a bunch of people who didn't hit level 5 calling LoL shit and HoN/DotA the best puts things in perspective. Anyone who's bashing LoL in this thread should read what Loco brought up and consider it.
There isn't much point to it. Pros of various skill levels (not all pros in are equal skill level and most cannot be considered top players) have both called LoL a good game, a fun game but bad for competitive play, and a bad game. I think it's just better to give it a rest, judge for yourself, and see in the long run how LoL develops.
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A little logic experiment for anyone who STILL doesnt get the whole decision making is more important in lol than in hon or dota (from this point on to be generalized as hon) argument:
Fact 1: There are pros in both lol and hon. For the purposes of this discussion, this means people who will win the majority of their games, and generally crush lesser players.
Fact 2: Lol is less mechanically demanding than hon
Corollary to 2: This means that pros in lol have 1 less advantage when compared to pros in hon: Hon pros can rely on mechanics and hard carries to win, lol pros must ONLY rely on their game knowledge and decision making.
Corollary to 1&2: If pros in lol and hon both win similar percentages of games, but lol players can only rely on game knowledge instead of mechanics, then decision making is more important to success in lol than in hon.
Conclusion: Hon players can rely on 2 things to carry them to victory, superior mechanics and decision making. LoL players just have decision making. This means that decision making is more important to lol than it is in hon.
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On July 28 2011 14:48 Two_DoWn wrote:
A little logic experiment for anyone who STILL doesnt get the whole decision making is more important in lol than in hon or dota (from this point on to be generalized as hon) argument:
Fact 1: There are pros in both lol and hon. For the purposes of this discussion, this means people who will win the majority of their games, and generally crush lesser players.
Fact 2: Lol is less mechanically demanding than hon
Corollary to 2: This means that pros in lol have 1 less advantage when compared to pros in hon: Hon pros can rely on mechanics and hard carries to win, lol pros must ONLY rely on their game knowledge and decision making.
Corollary to 1&2: If pros in lol and hon both win similar percentages of games, but lol players can only rely on game knowledge instead of mechanics, then decision making is more important to success in lol than in hon.
Conclusion: Hon players can rely on 2 things to carry them to victory, superior mechanics and decision making. LoL players just have decision making. This means that decision making is more important to lol than it is in hon.
that is true
but the argument is whether it takes MORE decision making to win in LoL than HoN/DotA, which is a fuzzy question and imo, as unanswerable and pointless as the argument about whether or not SC2 requires a more strategic mind than BW does
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On July 28 2011 14:48 Two_DoWn wrote:
A little logic experiment for anyone who STILL doesnt get the whole decision making is more important in lol than in hon or dota (from this point on to be generalized as hon) argument:
Fact 1: There are pros in both lol and hon. For the purposes of this discussion, this means people who will win the majority of their games, and generally crush lesser players.
Fact 2: Lol is less mechanically demanding than hon
Corollary to 2: This means that pros in lol have 1 less advantage when compared to pros in hon: Hon pros can rely on mechanics and hard carries to win, lol pros must ONLY rely on their game knowledge and decision making.
Corollary to 1&2: If pros in lol and hon both win similar percentages of games, but lol players can only rely on game knowledge instead of mechanics, then decision making is more important to success in lol than in hon.
Conclusion: Hon players can rely on 2 things to carry them to victory, superior mechanics and decision making. LoL players just have decision making. This means that decision making is more important to lol than it is in hon.
See, I addressed that earlier though, that's not particularly a positive for LoL. Let's use that same example the fundamentals of basketball vs a game based around shooting hoops. In the latter, aim is more important than in the former because you can't rely on movement, dribbling, dunks and things like that, but that doesn't mean the latter is ahead in terms of the depth of aim, it's just behind in the other elements.
So yeah, sure you can say LoL places more importance on decision making, but that isn't a positive or a neutral statement really, what you highlighted genuinely means a lower skill ceiling since in one department the players have two things they have to be good at to be competitive in and in the other, they have one thing. The mechanical elements aren't the only thing in regards to DotA/HoN and LoL either, things such as denying aren't exactly mechanical, but add a lot more focus and activity to the laning phase.
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On July 28 2011 13:51 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 13:21 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 28 2011 11:24 locodoco wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Locodoco (11:19): yo
callmevigoss (11:19): sup
Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol?
callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder
Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why?
callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork
hon can 1 v 3
if ur fed
lol
lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff
so u acnt really 1 v 3
Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit
lane phase is more "focused"
callmevigoss (11:21): lol
its like last hitting
thats it
Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways?
i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon
callmevigoss (11:22): nah
lol tournament is like
5-10 times more #$
lol
Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz
callmevigoss (11:22): lol callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~ Locodoco telling us wat's up! It makes sense though. In DotA and HoN, levels and farm continue to scale for a lot longer, while in LoL the maximum level and farm are approached much quicker. This way, the focus for LoL is much different than in DotA/HoN More people need to recognize this. A pro DotA/HoN player calling LoL more difficult. One person's opinion isn't proof, but a pro saying this compared to a bunch of people who didn't hit level 5 calling LoL shit and HoN/DotA the best puts things in perspective. Anyone who's bashing LoL in this thread should read what Loco brought up and consider it.
eddie says lol is more difficult, chu (who was also a member of pandemic and one of hon's top players) has said that he thinks hon is the better game. you're ignoring the other side here... i don't really see the strength in this argument.
lol is quite a fun game tho, but i would never play it competitively (mostly because i don't have time anymore, but once dota 2 comes out i'm sure i'll make time). i find lol to be a lot more fun than hon if i'm just looking to play a quick casual game (whereas i can't do that with hon -- i have to win). one of my friends is a caster for the smaller NASL tourneys, so often i'll just jump on with his group vs a bunch of lvl 30's even though i'm only at 13 right now. sucks balls when you lane against a lvl 30 with a couple of pages of runes (destroying the skill difference, or widening it if they're better players than i am), but it is quite satisfying when i manage to win.
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On July 28 2011 14:53 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 14:48 Two_DoWn wrote:
A little logic experiment for anyone who STILL doesnt get the whole decision making is more important in lol than in hon or dota (from this point on to be generalized as hon) argument:
Fact 1: There are pros in both lol and hon. For the purposes of this discussion, this means people who will win the majority of their games, and generally crush lesser players.
Fact 2: Lol is less mechanically demanding than hon
Corollary to 2: This means that pros in lol have 1 less advantage when compared to pros in hon: Hon pros can rely on mechanics and hard carries to win, lol pros must ONLY rely on their game knowledge and decision making.
Corollary to 1&2: If pros in lol and hon both win similar percentages of games, but lol players can only rely on game knowledge instead of mechanics, then decision making is more important to success in lol than in hon.
Conclusion: Hon players can rely on 2 things to carry them to victory, superior mechanics and decision making. LoL players just have decision making. This means that decision making is more important to lol than it is in hon. See, I addressed that earlier though, that's not particularly a positive for LoL. Let's use that same example the fundamentals of basketball vs a game based around shooting hoops. In the latter, aim is more important than in the former because you can't rely on movement, dribbling, dunks and things like that, but that doesn't mean the latter is ahead in terms of the depth of aim, it's just behind in the other elements. So yeah, sure you can say LoL places more importance on decision making, but that isn't a positive or a neutral statement really, what you highlighted genuinely means a lower skill ceiling since in one department the players have two things they have to be good at to be competitive in and in the other, they have one thing. The mechanical elements aren't the only thing in regards to DotA/HoN and LoL either, things such as denying aren't exactly mechanical, but add a lot more focus and activity to the laning phase.
Equally though, your fallacy here is assuming that doing more = better. What if you had to juggle with your other hand, while skipping in order to move in "basketball+"? That doesn't make the sport any better.
Removing aspects of a game don't necessarily make it a "lesser game" and adding more to it isn't always for the best.
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Whoever did the IP calculating to get all heroes: Are you not going to buy runes? I wouldn't wanna play with you.
:3
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On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote:
DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA.
Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
I am a DOTA fan but i don't deny how large LoL is. Doesn't change the fact its a extremely casual friendly game with no where near the depth of DOTA. Its a fun game and i enjoy playing it but if i look from a competitive viewpoint it really is a joke of a game.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Most people who claim LoL is n00b-friendly and doesn't work competitively are just whining about minor stuff, such as creep denying not being possible. While creep deny is a skill-based aspect, it doesn't make a game a "joke", and won't be a big impact in a pro match.
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EPT
