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On August 30 2011 03:59 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sacrificing a pawn does not mean having a disadvantage, when your position can allow for you to pin pieces to the king. I didn't say that it carries a net disadvantage, and I did say that moves of this sort are worth considering. All I'm saying is that it's an issue to consider: if you've considered it and made your decision about it, great.
Also, I'd phrase it a bit differently from you: rather than saying that "+ Show Spoiler + does not mean having a disadvantage," I prefer to say that it means having a disadvantage in one aspect of the game, although there may be compensatory advantages in other aspects.
Also, could you clarify what you meant by + Show Spoiler +"pinning pieces to the King"? 6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O Supposing then 7...dxc3: what then? Here's the position: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wd0eI.png) I don't see the opportunity to pin any pieces to the King.
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On August 30 2011 04:07 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 03:59 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sacrificing a pawn does not mean having a disadvantage, when your position can allow for you to pin pieces to the king. I didn't say that it carries a net disadvantage, and I did say that moves of this sort are worth considering. All I'm saying is that it's an issue to consider: if you've considered it and made your decision about it, great. Also, I'd phrase it a bit differently from you: rather than saying that " + Show Spoiler + does not mean having a disadvantage," I prefer to say that it means having a disadvantage in one aspect of the game, although there may be compensatory advantages in other aspects. Also, could you clarify what you meant by + Show Spoiler +"pinning pieces to the King"? The line I was thinking about in particular was the following, 7th in jdseemoreglass's post at the top of page 38: + Show Spoiler +6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O Supposing then 7...dxc3: what then? Here's the position: I don't see the opportunity to pin any pieces to the King.
+ Show Spoiler +
.I have also look at this variation and this line is good for white because of 8. Qd5! and black is worsed. The best case for black is after 8... Bxf2 9.Rxf2 Nxf2 10. Kxf2 and black is so far behind in development he is at best much worse if not losing. And this is just the simple line, its possible that white could have something better than 9. Rxf2 and might even just win a piece ( havent look at those lines in detail yet so i am not sure).
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On August 30 2011 04:38 Raysalis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 04:07 qrs wrote:On August 30 2011 03:59 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sacrificing a pawn does not mean having a disadvantage, when your position can allow for you to pin pieces to the king. I didn't say that it carries a net disadvantage, and I did say that moves of this sort are worth considering. All I'm saying is that it's an issue to consider: if you've considered it and made your decision about it, great. Also, I'd phrase it a bit differently from you: rather than saying that " + Show Spoiler + does not mean having a disadvantage," I prefer to say that it means having a disadvantage in one aspect of the game, although there may be compensatory advantages in other aspects. Also, could you clarify what you meant by + Show Spoiler +"pinning pieces to the King"? The line I was thinking about in particular was the following, 7th in jdseemoreglass's post at the top of page 38: + Show Spoiler +6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O Supposing then 7...dxc3: what then? Here's the position: I don't see the opportunity to pin any pieces to the King. + Show Spoiler +
.I have also look at this variation and this line is good for white because of 8. Qd5! and black is worsed. The best case for black is after 8... Bxf2 9.Rxf2 Nxf2 10. Kxf2 and black is so far behind in development he is at best much worse if not losing. And this is just the simple line, its possible that white could have something better than 9. Rxf2 and might even just win a piece ( havent look at those lines in detail yet so i am not sure).
Interesting point: I hadn't considered that 8th move for white. I took a look at what you call the "best case" for Black, and I think that Black is very much losing there: after + Show Spoiler +9. Kh1 instead of 9. Rxf2
However, in my opinion, Black's best move is not the one you give but + Show Spoiler +8...Nd2, counter-attacking the rook
I'd like to mention, by the way, that I haven't analyzed every line in detail, and it's quite possible that you can demonstrate that some of the issues I raised in my large post on the last page are nothing to worry about. All I was saying was that they are things that should be considered. Analysis like Raysalis just gave is exactly the sort of consideration I was talking about.
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On August 30 2011 05:21 qrs wrote:However, in my opinion, Black's best move is not the one you give but + Show Spoiler +8...Nd2, counter-attacking the rook which I believe preserves Black's material advantage in this line.
+ Show Spoiler +Honest question here, but I don't quite understand how that preserves black's material advantage after 9. Nbxd2
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On August 30 2011 05:21 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 04:38 Raysalis wrote:On August 30 2011 04:07 qrs wrote:On August 30 2011 03:59 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sacrificing a pawn does not mean having a disadvantage, when your position can allow for you to pin pieces to the king. I didn't say that it carries a net disadvantage, and I did say that moves of this sort are worth considering. All I'm saying is that it's an issue to consider: if you've considered it and made your decision about it, great. Also, I'd phrase it a bit differently from you: rather than saying that " + Show Spoiler + does not mean having a disadvantage," I prefer to say that it means having a disadvantage in one aspect of the game, although there may be compensatory advantages in other aspects. Also, could you clarify what you meant by + Show Spoiler +"pinning pieces to the King"? The line I was thinking about in particular was the following, 7th in jdseemoreglass's post at the top of page 38: + Show Spoiler +6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O Supposing then 7...dxc3: what then? Here's the position: I don't see the opportunity to pin any pieces to the King. + Show Spoiler +
.I have also look at this variation and this line is good for white because of 8. Qd5! and black is worsed. The best case for black is after 8... Bxf2 9.Rxf2 Nxf2 10. Kxf2 and black is so far behind in development he is at best much worse if not losing. And this is just the simple line, its possible that white could have something better than 9. Rxf2 and might even just win a piece ( havent look at those lines in detail yet so i am not sure).
Interesting point: I hadn't considered that 8th move for white. I took a look at what you call the "best case" for Black, and I think that Black is very much losing there: after + Show Spoiler +9. Kh1 instead of 9. Rxf2 I can't see how Black avoids losing a piece. However, in my opinion, Black's best move is not the one you give but + Show Spoiler +8...Nd2, counter-attacking the rook which I believe preserves Black's material advantage in this line. It's true, as you say that White will have a lead in development to compensate, but I'm not sure that I agree that this makes Black "much worse if not losing". At the least, I think you need to demonstrate that a little further than you have. I'd like to mention, by the way, that I haven't analyzed every line in detail, and it's quite possible that you can demonstrate that some of the issues I raised in my large post on the last page are nothing to worry about. All I was saying was that they are things that should be considered. Analysis like Raysalis just gave is exactly the sort of consideration I was talking about.
+ Show Spoiler [an alternative] +I actually prefer the line 6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O dxc3 8. Qc2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EnNvv.png) Here black is clearly in a real bind. His knight is under attack with nowhere to retreat to, and defending with a pawn will lead to en passant. His c-pawn is also pinned to his bishop, revealing a discovered fork if his captures again. I think black's best option here is the line: 8. ... Nxf2 9. Rxf2 Bxf2+ 10. Qxf2 cxd2 11. Bxd2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JXuLD.png) Now we see the real danger black is in. A likely continuation would be: 11. ... O-O 12. Nc3 d6 13. exd6 cxd6 14. Ne5![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/H2A18.png) Of course Ng5 would (probably  )avoid these types of lines. I don't think there are any other lines where white is down a pawn... In several of the lines I offered, black actually offers a pawn in exchange for counter-play.
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On August 30 2011 05:30 enigmaticcam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 05:21 qrs wrote:However, in my opinion, Black's best move is not the one you give but + Show Spoiler +8...Nd2, counter-attacking the rook which I believe preserves Black's material advantage in this line. + Show Spoiler +Honest question here, but I don't quite understand how that preserves black's material advantage after 9. Nbxd2 Quite simply: + Show Spoiler +Black retakes with his pawn on d2, and now he's threatening White's Bishop. Either 10. BxP Black moves his Bishop out of danger or 10. QxP PxB=Q 11. RxQ or QxQ. In either case, Black gets to keep his pawn.
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On August 30 2011 05:30 enigmaticcam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 05:21 qrs wrote:However, in my opinion, Black's best move is not the one you give but + Show Spoiler +8...Nd2, counter-attacking the rook which I believe preserves Black's material advantage in this line. + Show Spoiler +Honest question here, but I don't quite understand how that preserves black's material advantage after 9. Nbxd2
+ Show Spoiler +If 9. Nbxd2 Black is much better in that line because after 9... cxd2 white bishop on c1 is under attack so it needs to take 10.Bxd2 and this gives black the time to escape with his bishop such as 10... Bb6 and i dont think white can prevent black from castling/consolidating and just win with his extra pawns I think 9. Qxc5 and white is probably still much better since after 9. .... Nxf1 10. Kxf1 white still have the lead in development and black still has trouble castling. In the simplest case, White can just take back on c3 and black won't even be up material while still behind in development. Based on all this, i think 7... dxc3 is a mistake for black and thats why 7. O-O is a strong move since black will probably have to castle and white can regain a good centre after 8. cxd4 (looking at the simple case  )
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On August 30 2011 05:43 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 05:21 qrs wrote:On August 30 2011 04:38 Raysalis wrote:On August 30 2011 04:07 qrs wrote:On August 30 2011 03:59 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sacrificing a pawn does not mean having a disadvantage, when your position can allow for you to pin pieces to the king. I didn't say that it carries a net disadvantage, and I did say that moves of this sort are worth considering. All I'm saying is that it's an issue to consider: if you've considered it and made your decision about it, great. Also, I'd phrase it a bit differently from you: rather than saying that " + Show Spoiler + does not mean having a disadvantage," I prefer to say that it means having a disadvantage in one aspect of the game, although there may be compensatory advantages in other aspects. Also, could you clarify what you meant by + Show Spoiler +"pinning pieces to the King"? The line I was thinking about in particular was the following, 7th in jdseemoreglass's post at the top of page 38: + Show Spoiler +6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O Supposing then 7...dxc3: what then? Here's the position: I don't see the opportunity to pin any pieces to the King. + Show Spoiler +
.I have also look at this variation and this line is good for white because of 8. Qd5! and black is worsed. The best case for black is after 8... Bxf2 9.Rxf2 Nxf2 10. Kxf2 and black is so far behind in development he is at best much worse if not losing. And this is just the simple line, its possible that white could have something better than 9. Rxf2 and might even just win a piece ( havent look at those lines in detail yet so i am not sure).
Interesting point: I hadn't considered that 8th move for white. I took a look at what you call the "best case" for Black, and I think that Black is very much losing there: after + Show Spoiler +9. Kh1 instead of 9. Rxf2 I can't see how Black avoids losing a piece. However, in my opinion, Black's best move is not the one you give but + Show Spoiler +8...Nd2, counter-attacking the rook which I believe preserves Black's material advantage in this line. It's true, as you say that White will have a lead in development to compensate, but I'm not sure that I agree that this makes Black "much worse if not losing". At the least, I think you need to demonstrate that a little further than you have. I'd like to mention, by the way, that I haven't analyzed every line in detail, and it's quite possible that you can demonstrate that some of the issues I raised in my large post on the last page are nothing to worry about. All I was saying was that they are things that should be considered. Analysis like Raysalis just gave is exactly the sort of consideration I was talking about. + Show Spoiler [an alternative] +I actually prefer the line 6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O dcx3 8. Qc2Here black is clearly in a real bind. His knight is under attack with no where to retreat to, and defending with a pawn will lead to en passant. His c-pawn is also pinned to his bishop, revealing a discovered fork if his captures again. I think black's only real option here is the line: 8. ... Nxf2 9. Rxf2 Bxf2+ 10. Qxf2 cxd2 11. Bxd2Now we see the real danger black is in. A likely continuation would be: 11. ... O-O 12. Nc3 d6 13. exd6 cxd6 14. Ne5Of course Ng5 would avoid these types of lines. I don't think there are any other lines where white is down a pawn... In several of the lines I offered, black actually offers a pawn in exchange for counter-play. Re your alternative line, yes White has a substantial development advantage; on the other hand, Black's material advantage has widened to + Show Spoiler +A rook and three pawns for a Knight and Bishop--two pawns, under the traditional system.
Re your point that there are no other lines where + Show Spoiler +you're right, I spoke too quickly there. At first I was counting all the lines where you had White + Show Spoiler +castle before taking back the pawn Nd5, where he can't immediately play dxc because his pawn is pinned to his Knight, as I believe you pointed out in one of your earlier posts.
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On August 30 2011 05:56 Raysalis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 05:30 enigmaticcam wrote:On August 30 2011 05:21 qrs wrote:However, in my opinion, Black's best move is not the one you give but + Show Spoiler +8...Nd2, counter-attacking the rook which I believe preserves Black's material advantage in this line. + Show Spoiler +Honest question here, but I don't quite understand how that preserves black's material advantage after 9. Nbxd2 + Show Spoiler +If 9. Nbxd2 Black is much better in that line because after 9... cxd2 white bishop on c1 is under attack so it needs to take 10.Bxd2 and this gives black the time to escape with his bishop such as 10... Bb6 and i dont think white can prevent black from castling/consolidating and just win with his extra pawns I think 9. Qxc5 and white is probably still much better since after 9. .... Nxf1 10. Kxf1 white still have the lead in development and black still has trouble castling. In the simplest case, White can just take back on c3 and black won't even be up material while still behind in development. Based on all this, i think 7... dxc3 is a mistake for black and thats why 7. O-O is a strong move since black will probably have to castle and white can regain a good centre after 8. cxd4 (looking at the simple case ) First of all, your "simplest case" is wrong--or at least needs to be explained further. After your + Show Spoiler [continued] + 9. Qxc5 Nxf1 10. Kxf1, Black can continue with 10... PxP 11. BxP and keep his one-pawn lead.
Secondly, while it may be true that "Black still has trouble + Show Spoiler [continued] +castling", it seems to me that if Black plays ...Qd7, then either he can castle with no trouble, or White has to exchange Queens to prevent him from doing so. If we exchange Queens, Black's deficit in development becomes less problematic.
Based on this, I disagree that the 7th move in question is clearly a mistake for Black. IMO, it's a legitimate possibility.
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6. e5
+ Show Spoiler +All the analysis have been posted on this move already, and I'm comfortable going down these lines.
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On August 30 2011 06:35 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 05:56 Raysalis wrote:On August 30 2011 05:30 enigmaticcam wrote:On August 30 2011 05:21 qrs wrote:However, in my opinion, Black's best move is not the one you give but + Show Spoiler +8...Nd2, counter-attacking the rook which I believe preserves Black's material advantage in this line. + Show Spoiler +Honest question here, but I don't quite understand how that preserves black's material advantage after 9. Nbxd2 + Show Spoiler +If 9. Nbxd2 Black is much better in that line because after 9... cxd2 white bishop on c1 is under attack so it needs to take 10.Bxd2 and this gives black the time to escape with his bishop such as 10... Bb6 and i dont think white can prevent black from castling/consolidating and just win with his extra pawns I think 9. Qxc5 and white is probably still much better since after 9. .... Nxf1 10. Kxf1 white still have the lead in development and black still has trouble castling. In the simplest case, White can just take back on c3 and black won't even be up material while still behind in development. Based on all this, i think 7... dxc3 is a mistake for black and thats why 7. O-O is a strong move since black will probably have to castle and white can regain a good centre after 8. cxd4 (looking at the simple case ) First of all, your "simplest case" is wrong--or at least needs to be explained further. After your + Show Spoiler [continued] + 9. Qxc5 Nxf1 10. Kxf1, Black can continue with 10... PxP 11. BxP and keep his one-pawn lead. Secondly, while it may be true that "Black still has trouble + Show Spoiler [continued] +castling", it seems to me that if Black plays ...Qd2, then either he can castle with no trouble, or White has to exchange Queens to prevent him from doing so. If we exchange Queens, Black's deficit in development becomes less problematic. Based on this, I disagree that the 7th move in question is clearly a mistake for Black. IMO, it's a legitimate possibility.
+ Show Spoiler +
My gut feeling still tell me that white is better even if black keeps a pawn advantage although i agree its not easy to find a good plan for white.
I found a better move for white though instead of 10. Kxf1, 10.Nxc3 is stronger since after 10. ...Nxh2 11. Kxh2 white knight is now developed on c3 too compare to the other line. I am quite sure that this line is good for white since moves like Nd5/Bg5/Ng5 are very threatening.
Basically i dont believe that black can survive this position with Rook on a8, rook on h8 and bishop on c8 still block in by his own pawns! It just fell like this + white lead in development should easily compensate for a pawn.
The line shown by jdmoreglass also looks quite interesting although white is down even more material in that line! (rook+3 pawns for knight+bishop+pawn) . I am actually not sure whether the position is good for black or white. I will definitely choose white there too since he has all the fun!
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On August 30 2011 08:15 Raysalis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
My gut feeling still tell me that white is better even if black keeps a pawn advantage although i agree its not easy to find a good plan for white.
I found a better move for white though instead of 10. Kxf1, 10.Nxc3 is stronger since after 10. ...Nxh2 11. Kxh2 white knight is now developed on c3 too compare to the other line. I am quite sure that this line is good for white since moves like Nd5/Bg5/Ng5 are very threatening.
Basically i dont believe that black can survive this position with Rook on a8, rook on h8 and bishop on c8 still block in by his own pawns! It just fell like this + white lead in development should easily compensate for a pawn.
The line shown by jdmoreglass also looks quite interesting although white is down even more material in that line! (rook+3 pawns for knight+bishop+pawn) . I am actually not sure whether the position is good for black or white. I will definitely choose white there too since he has all the fun!
Your most recent line is one I had considered too. I'm not sure that I agree that it's a better one for White. As you say, White's + Show Spoiler [piece] +is developed at the end of this line, unlike in the previous one; on the other hand, his + Show Spoiler [piece] + is developed at the end of the previous one, unlike in this one. Furthermore, in this line, White's King is more exposed.
In any case, you point to a bunch of moves which look vaguely "threatening", which is all well and good, but the end of the day, can we back these threats up or are they toothless? In a position where we're down material, I'm not comfortable just gesturing to some scary-looking moves, and pointing out that if we got to play them all at once, Black would be in big trouble. Black gets to move too, after all, and all he has to do is parry our threats: the burden is on us to make something happen.
Furthermore, in any situation like this, where one side is up material and the other has a threatening attack, there's a "defender's advantage" in that the defender is happy to exchange pieces, whereas the attacker generally wants to keep them on the board. That means that if Black, say, offers a Queen exchange, we have a choice between trading down or spending a move to run away. Either option helps out Black.
Getting down to specifics, here's the position at the end of your last line, with Black to play: + Show Spoiler [position] + Looks scary for Black at a glance, yes, but what's your plan if Black plays + Show Spoiler [this?] +...Qd7? If Black plays ...b6? If Black plays both?
As it appears to me, the combination of these moves drives off our Queen (or drives us to exchange it off), and gives Black the space he needs to castle and consolidate his position. Do you see a way to keep the pressure on? Our Queen's advanced position, while threatening, ends up becoming a liability, since Black can gain invaluable time by threatening the Queen.
For people who don't have the time to wade through the whole conversation, the lines we're discussing are critical lines if we play 6. e5. If Black responds with + Show Spoiler [move] + the burden is on us to be sure we are ready to face that. Three moves have been suggested: + Show Spoiler [moves] +The first one leads to what seems to be a favorable-to-Black version of a line that we've been discussing since 5. d4 was first broached. The second is the line that Raysalis, jdseemoreglass and I have been discussing. No consensus has been reached, but IMO there's a good chance that Black has the advantage here, despite certain aspects of the position that are in our favour. The third move has not seen much discussion yet...
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Black doesn't have to play 6. ... Ne4, and we don't have to respond with 7. O-O. Even if those two moves are both played, black doesn't have to play 7. ... dxc3, and even if he does, we don't have to play 8. Qe5.
We are putting a lot of our focus on a line that's only a remote possibility, and honestly I think both sides have better moves along the way. I say we cross that bridge when we get to it. 3 days is certainly enough time to look at any move black can throw at us.
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On August 30 2011 09:25 jdseemoreglass wrote:Black doesn't have to play + Show Spoiler +6. ... Ne4, and we don't have to respond with 7. O-O. Even if those two moves are both played, black doesn't have to play 7. ... dxc3, and even if he does, we don't have to play 8. Qe5. We are putting a lot of our focus on a line that's only a remote possibility, and honestly I think both sides have better moves along the way. I say we cross that bridge when we get to it. 3 days is certainly enough time to look at any move black can throw at us. Half-agreed. We should be looking for our best line, if Black plays the best moves we can find for him, so it doesn't help to say "Black doesn't have to play X or Y"--the question is if Black plays these moves, do we have a good answer? I think the more relevant part of your post is "we don't have to respond with ___", which is true, but in that case, someone should take a look at our other options. Sure, 3 days gives us enough time to look at any move Black can throw at us--so long as there's a good move out there for us to find.
I think that dialectic is a pretty good method of analysis. If you want to steer the discussion to what you think is a more worthwhile line to look at, all you have to do is point to the move that improves on the line at hand and the discussion will move that way.
edit: I think I see where you were coming from now. The part I didn't make clear is that I'm not convinced that we should play 6. e5, unless the third option after + Show Spoiler +is more promising than the first two.
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On August 30 2011 09:42 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 09:25 jdseemoreglass wrote:Black doesn't have to play + Show Spoiler +6. ... Ne4, and we don't have to respond with 7. O-O. Even if those two moves are both played, black doesn't have to play 7. ... dxc3, and even if he does, we don't have to play 8. Qe5. We are putting a lot of our focus on a line that's only a remote possibility, and honestly I think both sides have better moves along the way. I say we cross that bridge when we get to it. 3 days is certainly enough time to look at any move black can throw at us. Half-agreed. We should be looking for our best line, if Black plays the best moves we can find for him, so it doesn't help to say "Black doesn't have to play X or Y"--the question is if Black plays these moves, do we have a good answer? I think the more relevant part of your post is "we don't have to respond with ___", which is true, but in that case, someone should take a look at our other options. Sure, 3 days gives us enough time to look at any move Black can throw at us--so long as there's a good move out there for us to find. I think that dialectic is a pretty good method of analysis. If you want to steer the discussion to what you think is a more worthwhile line to look at, all you have to do is point to the move that improves on the line at hand and the discussion will move that way. edit: I think I see where you were coming from now. The part I didn't make clear is that I'm not convinced that we should play 6. e5, unless the third option after + Show Spoiler +is more promising than the first two.
+ Show Spoiler +Well, if black did play 6. ... Ne4, I would argue in favor of 7. cxd4 as our best move, followed by 7. ... Bc4+ 8. Nbd2.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JzPoo.png) With an example of a solid continuation being: 8. ... O-O 9. O-O a6 10. Ba4 d5 11. a3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F1R01.png)
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On August 30 2011 10:09 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 09:42 qrs wrote:On August 30 2011 09:25 jdseemoreglass wrote:Black doesn't have to play + Show Spoiler +6. ... Ne4, and we don't have to respond with 7. O-O. Even if those two moves are both played, black doesn't have to play 7. ... dxc3, and even if he does, we don't have to play 8. Qe5. We are putting a lot of our focus on a line that's only a remote possibility, and honestly I think both sides have better moves along the way. I say we cross that bridge when we get to it. 3 days is certainly enough time to look at any move black can throw at us. Half-agreed. We should be looking for our best line, if Black plays the best moves we can find for him, so it doesn't help to say "Black doesn't have to play X or Y"--the question is if Black plays these moves, do we have a good answer? I think the more relevant part of your post is "we don't have to respond with ___", which is true, but in that case, someone should take a look at our other options. Sure, 3 days gives us enough time to look at any move Black can throw at us--so long as there's a good move out there for us to find. I think that dialectic is a pretty good method of analysis. If you want to steer the discussion to what you think is a more worthwhile line to look at, all you have to do is point to the move that improves on the line at hand and the discussion will move that way. edit: I think I see where you were coming from now. The part I didn't make clear is that I'm not convinced that we should play 6. e5, unless the third option after + Show Spoiler +is more promising than the first two. + Show Spoiler +Well, if black did play 6. ... Ne4, I would argue in favor of 7. cxd4 as our best move, followed by 7. ... Bc4+ 8. Nbd2.With an example of a solid continuation being: 8. ... O-O 9. O-O a6 10. Ba4 d5 11. a3 OK, this is interesting. I didn't give it much attention at first, because we're letting Black put a lot of pressure on us in the short term, but maybe you're right and that pressure just evaporates in a couple of moves. I looked at your line, and I have two comments.
On the one hand, unless I'm missing something, the example of a solid continuation that you offer seems to actually drop a pawn for Black. + Show Spoiler +After 6. e5 Ne4 7. cxd4 Bb4+ 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. O-O, I don't think Black has the time to play 9...a6. If he does, 10. BxN NxN 11. Bxb7 wins us a pawn, if I'm not mistaken.
If anything, that makes the line look better for us, of course, but I'm concerned about a different Black move: + Show Spoiler [8...] +Our opponent's namesake: Ng5! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zjRAX.png) It looks odd for Black to be spending yet another move on his Knight, when he's still behind in development, but there's a method to the madness: he's trying to press the advantage of White's temporary immobility, with the Nd2 pinned and blocking the Bishop and Queen. The threat here is to the momentarily vulnerable d-pawn that's holding down the center for us. Our Nf3 is its only defender right now, and Ng5 takes aim at that.
Black is threatening to win material here. How do you proceed for White?
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On August 30 2011 10:49 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 10:09 jdseemoreglass wrote:On August 30 2011 09:42 qrs wrote:On August 30 2011 09:25 jdseemoreglass wrote:Black doesn't have to play + Show Spoiler +6. ... Ne4, and we don't have to respond with 7. O-O. Even if those two moves are both played, black doesn't have to play 7. ... dxc3, and even if he does, we don't have to play 8. Qe5. We are putting a lot of our focus on a line that's only a remote possibility, and honestly I think both sides have better moves along the way. I say we cross that bridge when we get to it. 3 days is certainly enough time to look at any move black can throw at us. Half-agreed. We should be looking for our best line, if Black plays the best moves we can find for him, so it doesn't help to say "Black doesn't have to play X or Y"--the question is if Black plays these moves, do we have a good answer? I think the more relevant part of your post is "we don't have to respond with ___", which is true, but in that case, someone should take a look at our other options. Sure, 3 days gives us enough time to look at any move Black can throw at us--so long as there's a good move out there for us to find. I think that dialectic is a pretty good method of analysis. If you want to steer the discussion to what you think is a more worthwhile line to look at, all you have to do is point to the move that improves on the line at hand and the discussion will move that way. edit: I think I see where you were coming from now. The part I didn't make clear is that I'm not convinced that we should play 6. e5, unless the third option after + Show Spoiler +is more promising than the first two. + Show Spoiler +Well, if black did play 6. ... Ne4, I would argue in favor of 7. cxd4 as our best move, followed by 7. ... Bc4+ 8. Nbd2.With an example of a solid continuation being: 8. ... O-O 9. O-O a6 10. Ba4 d5 11. a3 OK, this is interesting. I didn't give it much attention at first, because we're letting Black put a lot of pressure on us in the short term, but maybe you're right and that pressure just evaporates in a couple of moves. I looked at your line, and I have two comments. On the one hand, unless I'm missing something, the example of a solid continuation that you offer seems to actually drop a pawn for Black. + Show Spoiler +After 6. e5 Ne4 7. cxd4 Bb4+ 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. O-O, I don't think Black has the time to play 9...a6. If he does, 10. BxN NxN 11. Bxb7 wins us a pawn, if I'm not mistaken. If anything, that makes the line look better for us, of course, but I'm concerned about a different Black move: + Show Spoiler [8...] +Our opponent's namesake: Ng5! It looks odd for Black to be spending yet another move on his Knight, when he's still behind in development, but there's a method to the madness: he's trying to press the advantage of White's temporary immobility, with the Nd2 pinned and blocking the Bishop and Queen. The threat here is to the momentarily vulnerable d-pawn that's holding down the center for us. Our Nf3 is its only defender right now, and Ng5 takes aim at that. Black is threatening to win material here. How do you proceed for White?
+ Show Spoiler +In the position you cited, we simply have to castle. 8. Nbd2 Ng5 9. O-O![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bcWzP.png) No matter how black follows up now, we end up with a solid lead in development and space. For example: If 9. ... Nxf3, we simply recapture with out knight, 10. Nxf3.If 9. ... Bxd2, we play 10. Bxd2 Nxf3+ 11. Qxe3.Here, if black tries grabbing the pawn, 11. ... Nxd4, we have the very strong move 12. Qg3!![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9fcPd.png) If 12. ... Nxb5?, we play 13. Qxg7 Rf8 14. Bg5, winning the queen, or mating. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CxMLy.png) If 12. ... O-O, then 13. Bg5 Qe8 14. Bd3 opens up too many threats ( Qh4, Bxh7, Bf6, etc.) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cbame.png) If 12. ... Ne6, then 13. f4, and we are already storming toward the king-side. If 12. ... Nf5, we play 13. Qg4. The knight can't be defended by the bishop because of the pinned pawn, and 13. ... d6 loses the queen to 14. Bg5. Black's best move here, I think is 12. Kf8, which concedes too much in exchange for the pawn.
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On August 30 2011 11:32 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 10:49 qrs wrote:On August 30 2011 10:09 jdseemoreglass wrote:On August 30 2011 09:42 qrs wrote:On August 30 2011 09:25 jdseemoreglass wrote:Black doesn't have to play + Show Spoiler +6. ... Ne4, and we don't have to respond with 7. O-O. Even if those two moves are both played, black doesn't have to play 7. ... dxc3, and even if he does, we don't have to play 8. Qe5. We are putting a lot of our focus on a line that's only a remote possibility, and honestly I think both sides have better moves along the way. I say we cross that bridge when we get to it. 3 days is certainly enough time to look at any move black can throw at us. Half-agreed. We should be looking for our best line, if Black plays the best moves we can find for him, so it doesn't help to say "Black doesn't have to play X or Y"--the question is if Black plays these moves, do we have a good answer? I think the more relevant part of your post is "we don't have to respond with ___", which is true, but in that case, someone should take a look at our other options. Sure, 3 days gives us enough time to look at any move Black can throw at us--so long as there's a good move out there for us to find. I think that dialectic is a pretty good method of analysis. If you want to steer the discussion to what you think is a more worthwhile line to look at, all you have to do is point to the move that improves on the line at hand and the discussion will move that way. edit: I think I see where you were coming from now. The part I didn't make clear is that I'm not convinced that we should play 6. e5, unless the third option after + Show Spoiler +is more promising than the first two. + Show Spoiler +Well, if black did play 6. ... Ne4, I would argue in favor of 7. cxd4 as our best move, followed by 7. ... Bc4+ 8. Nbd2.With an example of a solid continuation being: 8. ... O-O 9. O-O a6 10. Ba4 d5 11. a3 OK, this is interesting. I didn't give it much attention at first, because we're letting Black put a lot of pressure on us in the short term, but maybe you're right and that pressure just evaporates in a couple of moves. I looked at your line, and I have two comments. On the one hand, unless I'm missing something, the example of a solid continuation that you offer seems to actually drop a pawn for Black. + Show Spoiler +After 6. e5 Ne4 7. cxd4 Bb4+ 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. O-O, I don't think Black has the time to play 9...a6. If he does, 10. BxN NxN 11. Bxb7 wins us a pawn, if I'm not mistaken. If anything, that makes the line look better for us, of course, but I'm concerned about a different Black move: + Show Spoiler [8...] +Our opponent's namesake: Ng5! It looks odd for Black to be spending yet another move on his Knight, when he's still behind in development, but there's a method to the madness: he's trying to press the advantage of White's temporary immobility, with the Nd2 pinned and blocking the Bishop and Queen. The threat here is to the momentarily vulnerable d-pawn that's holding down the center for us. Our Nf3 is its only defender right now, and Ng5 takes aim at that. Black is threatening to win material here. How do you proceed for White? + Show Spoiler +In the position you cited, we simply have to castle. 8. Nbd2 Ng5 9. O-ONo matter how black follows up now, we end up with a solid lead in development and space. For example: If 9. ... Nxf3, we simply recapture with out knight, 10. Nxf3.If 9. ... Bxd2, we play 10. Bxd2 Nxf3+ 11. Qxe3.Here, if black tries grabbing the pawn, 11. ... Nxd4, we have the very strong move 12. Qg3!If 12. ... Nxb5?, we play 13. Qxg7 Rf8 14. Bg5, winning the queen, or mating. If 12. ... O-O, then 13. Bg5 Qe8 14. Bd3 opens up too many threats ( Qh4, Bxh7, Bf6, etc.) If 12. ... Ne6, then 13. f4, and we are already storming toward the king-side. If 12. ... Nf5, we play 13. Qg4. The knight can't be defended by the bishop because of the pinned pawn, and 13. ... d6 loses the queen to 14. Bg5. Black's best move here, I think is 12. Kf8, which concedes too much in exchange for the pawn. Wow, thanks for such a thorough analysis!
You give several interesting lines to look through, and it will take me a bit of time, but just a small point to clear out of the way: in your last spoiler: + Show Spoiler +If 12. ... Nf5, we play 13. Qg4. The knight can't be defended by the bishop because of the pinned pawn, and 13. ... d6 loses the queen to 14. Bg5. I assume you meant 13...g6, correct? Also, it doesn't technically lose the Queen, since Black can block with Ne7. It's still an absolutely hideous situation for Black, of course.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wITQM.png)
