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On November 07 2011 21:03 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 18:23 popzags wrote:Tough call... + Show Spoiler [Analysis] +20. Nf3 immediately yields more central control, protecting both d4 and e1, not exposing to possible capture by Ba6 and finally, isn't it a perfect position for a Knight in front of his castled King?
On the other hand, the plan Nf1-g3-f5 provides us a permanent Knight on agressive square... Connecting it with moves like Bf4 and Rac1, pressuring weak pawn, it might realistically be better. OK, I vote for 20. Nf1. Let me just point out that our Knight can reach the same square in the same number of moves after Nf3, + Show Spoiler +so that doesn't seem like an argument to play Nf1 over Nf3. Anyway, what's your opinion of the position given in my previous post?
Oh, that Knight tour observation is neat, I didn't realize that.
In your given evaluation line after 20. Nf1, I think 24. g4 had to be considered. Then maybe Kf1, Ke2 and we chase away that fearsome Rook with Rd3. If he goes ...Rd2+ Bb2 and our Bishop is one step closer to freedom. Furthermore, 21. g4 opens the possibility of Nxd5, which, I admit, horribly exposes our King to attack, but might be worth further examiniation.
I also had funny idea of going Bb2, Rc1, Bc3 and Bb4, to break away from the cage our Bishop was in, but those are just loose plans, nothing concrete. (Meh, forget about it, now I see that it basically drops a3 pawn).
I can't afford time for closer analysis now, but LaXer's line looks appetizing.
BTW, I totally agree with mastergriggy's signature.
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On November 07 2011 21:28 popzags wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 21:03 qrs wrote:On November 07 2011 18:23 popzags wrote:Tough call... + Show Spoiler [Analysis] +20. Nf3 immediately yields more central control, protecting both d4 and e1, not exposing to possible capture by Ba6 and finally, isn't it a perfect position for a Knight in front of his castled King?
On the other hand, the plan Nf1-g3-f5 provides us a permanent Knight on agressive square... Connecting it with moves like Bf4 and Rac1, pressuring weak pawn, it might realistically be better. OK, I vote for 20. Nf1. Let me just point out that our Knight can reach the same square in the same number of moves after Nf3, + Show Spoiler +so that doesn't seem like an argument to play Nf1 over Nf3. Anyway, what's your opinion of the position given in my previous post? Oh, that Knight tour observation is neat, I didn't realize that. In your given evaluation line after 20. Nf1, I think 24. g4 had to be considered. Then maybe Kf1, Ke2 and we chase away that fearsome Rook with Rd3. If he goes ...Rd2+ Bb2 and our Bishop is one step closer to freedom. Furthermore, 21. g4 opens the possibility of Nxd5, which, I admit, horribly exposes our King to attack, but might be worth further examiniation. I also had funny idea of going Bb2, Rc1, Bc3 and Bb4, to break away from the cage our Bishop was in, but those are just loose plans, nothing concrete. (Meh, forget about it, now I see that it basically drops a3 pawn). I can't afford time for closer analysis now, but LaXer's line looks appetizing. BTW, I totally agree with mastergriggy's signature. Thanks for responding so quickly! I hadn't entirely overlooked your move, although I forgot to mention it in the suggested continuations on that page (fixed now). My basic plan had been + Show Spoiler +24. g4 Bg6, and my thinking was that all we've really accomplished is to chase the Bishop to a square it likes better: from g6, it controls d3, c2, and b1, all of them important squares for us.
24...Bg6 basically heads off the plans that you mention: for example, 25. Nxd5 loses the Knight to 25...Re1+ 26. Kg2 Be4+, and Rd3 is not possible with the Bishop on g6.
However, 24. g4 has another point to it that I hadn't considered: + Show Spoiler +One of the plans that I thought seemed pretty good for us in this position was simply to charge with the a-pawn: 24. a6, etc. planning to follow up with a7 and Rb2, where Black has a bit of trouble dealing with our threats in time.
The response that I eventually came up with for Black was 24...f5, leading to a fairly wild position where I wasn't sure who had the lead. However, your 24. g4 prevents ...f5, so maybe 24. g4 Bg6 25. a6 is a pretty good plan for us here.
BTW, I totally agree with mastergriggy's signature. mastergriggy's signature is obviously ridiculous and over the top, but I still appreciate the compliment. 
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Re 24. g4, on second thought, I think it fails to + Show Spoiler +24...Bxg4 25. Nxg4 (25. Nxd5? Re1+ 26. Kg2 Bf3+ 27. Kg3/Kh3 Bxd5+ wins the Knight) 25...Re8 pinning the Knight and preparing to capture it26. f3 temporarily defending the Knight and clearing the way to relieve the pin with Rg226...f5 attacking the pinned Knight with a pawn and opening an avenue for Black's BishopFrom here, we have the option of Rg2, as well as the threat of pushing the a-pawn, but Black has the key move ...Bf6 which ends up carrying the day (if I'm not mistaken), as we can't defend our d-pawn in time. The most straightforward continuation might run: 27. Rg2 defending the Knight and relieving the pin 27...fxg4 with the pin gone, Black must capture the Knight immediately28. Rxg4 capturing with Rook rather than pawn to exchange our defensive Rook for Black's offensive Rook, which also removes the defender from h828...Rxg4 29. fxg4 simplest29...Bf6 scooping up the d4 pawn. The well-placed Rb3 guards both locations that our Bishop could have gone to to defend the pawn.30. Kg2 Bxd4, bringing us to this position. Black has evened up the material (we have no hope of defending the a-pawn), and his connected passed pawns give him the endgame advantage. There are variations, involving various combinations of the threat to Queen the a-pawn, for us, and the pin of our Knight and the threat of ...Bf6, ...Bxd4+, for Black. However, in every variation that I've looked at, the bottom line is that Black wins his pawn back/connected passed pawns, at the least.
edit: I've now added this branch to the tree, here.
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On November 08 2011 05:57 hype[NZ] wrote:
20.Nf3 Wow, if the best advocate of Nf1 has now switched his vote to Nf3, we must be onto something. Anyway, it's probably a good place for a tally:
Move 20 votes
+ Show Spoiler [votes] +20. Nf1: 11 (jdseemoreglass, keyStorm, wizard944, EnderSword, Malli, sGs.Kal_rA, Bill Murray, Ikari, hype[NZ], shackes, Maixori, LaXerCannon, popzags)
20. Rb1: 1 (hp.Shell)
20. Nf3: 9 (Raysalis, mastergriggy, qrs, SheaR619, EvilNalu, chesshaha, Maixori, dtvu, jdseemoreglass, GenesisX, )
20. g3: 0 (qrs)
Meanwhile, after earlier spending most of my time on 20. Nf1, I did a bunch of analysis on 20. Nf3 today, focusing on the response that LaXercannon suggested for Black and on one other possible Black response that's been pretty thematic since we played b4. I posted it all on the tree; it starts here.
For people who want to know what the line/position is that we've been having trouble with after 20. Nf1, it can be found here.
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We're almost at the deadline (less than 2 hours left, if Ng5 closes the vote 4 hours early, as he's said he plans to), and 20. Nf1 is in the lead by two votes. Yet almost all of the analysts (i.e. people who have posted analysis on this game) have voted for 20. Nf3. Also, in all the analysis that's been posted for this move (and there's been a fair bit), 20. Nf3 has looked solidly good for us, whereas 20. Nf1 has looked much more questionable.
Here's the most recent position in the critical 20. Nf1 line that LaXercannon and I have been debating over on the tree (LaXercannon's most recent post is here). Once again, I think that Black has quite a strong position here, and that we're far from assured of a win, or even necessarily a draw.
20. Nf1 doesn't necessarily sink us. But it's a very sharp line, and we don't have all the answers yet--or know whether they exist. We're ahead in material: we don't need to gamble on sharp lines. 20. Nf3 is the safe choice. If you voted for 20. Nf1, please reconsider your vote.
This will be my only appeal. Thanks for listening.
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On November 07 2011 21:28 popzags wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 21:03 qrs wrote:On November 07 2011 18:23 popzags wrote:Tough call... + Show Spoiler [Analysis] +20. Nf3 immediately yields more central control, protecting both d4 and e1, not exposing to possible capture by Ba6 and finally, isn't it a perfect position for a Knight in front of his castled King?
On the other hand, the plan Nf1-g3-f5 provides us a permanent Knight on agressive square... Connecting it with moves like Bf4 and Rac1, pressuring weak pawn, it might realistically be better. OK, I vote for 20. Nf1. Let me just point out that our Knight can reach the same square in the same number of moves after Nf3, + Show Spoiler +so that doesn't seem like an argument to play Nf1 over Nf3. Anyway, what's your opinion of the position given in my previous post? Oh, that Knight tour observation is neat, I didn't realize that. In your given evaluation line after 20. Nf1, I think 24. g4 had to be considered. Then maybe Kf1, Ke2 and we chase away that fearsome Rook with Rd3. If he goes ...Rd2+ Bb2 and our Bishop is one step closer to freedom. Furthermore, 21. g4 opens the possibility of Nxd5, which, I admit, horribly exposes our King to attack, but might be worth further examiniation. I also had funny idea of going Bb2, Rc1, Bc3 and Bb4, to break away from the cage our Bishop was in, but those are just loose plans, nothing concrete. (Meh, forget about it, now I see that it basically drops a3 pawn). I can't afford time for closer analysis now, but LaXer's line looks appetizing. BTW, I totally agree with mastergriggy's signature.
Lol, it was pretty funny how that ended up being my signature too. I kept trying to make an illegal move and I was like "prove me wrong!"
Anyhow, I still believe 20.Nf3 is the correct move. + Show Spoiler +Most of the arguments for Nf1 have been deflected, and I don't see why it's necessary to take giant risks when there are other moves that are strong for us. I like the plan that Nf3 has, and also how it tends to discourage c5
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You guys can have the extra day.
Sorry for not replying earlier, but I've been a sick puppy. Sick and not healthy, not as in some pervert.
On the other hand... I befriended someone like House. Does that necessarily make me Wilson?
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On November 08 2011 18:04 Ng5 wrote:
You guys can have the extra day.
Sorry for not replying earlier, but I've been a sick puppy. Sick and not healthy, not as in some pervert.
On the other hand... I befriended someone like House. Does that necessarily make me Wilson? Thanks for the day. Feel better!
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Read the analysis, going with.
20. Nf3
qrs <3
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There's our majority.
Now maybe I should change my vote again just to be an asshole. 
lol jk, I also <3 qrs
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Changing vote to Nf3 because I support it over Nf1.
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On November 08 2011 18:50 Chezus wrote:
Read the analysis, going with.
20. Nf3
qrs <3
On November 09 2011 00:44 jdseemoreglass wrote:There's our majority. Now maybe I should change my vote again just to be an asshole. lol jk, I also <3 qrs Aw, thanks, guys. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NrUI1.jpg) you too.
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
I vote for 20. Nf3. I believe that any other move is enormously risky in this situation, especially Nf1. In addition, considering the slightness of our material edge (+1 pawn, but knight/bishop vs bishop/bishop) and the vagueness of our positional situation (doubled pawn vs islanded pawns, attack lines, kingside pawn development), I vote to Offer Draw. I believe in this situation, if we make the best move (Nf3) we will get into a drawish circumstance, and the more aggressive moves are less viable.
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In the meantime, the debate continues to rage between me and LaXer in the 20. Nf1 line, after LaXer posted a White improvement for move 26. (You can read the latest here.)
The lines that follow 20. Nf1 (assuming that we play to keep our advantage and don't just passively relinquish our lead) are actually very interesting. Each side continuously parries threat with counterthreat, until the game reaches a point where we each have knives to the other's throat in three or four places and it's honestly hard to tell who's going to come out ahead when the dust clears.
20. Nf3 is a much tranquiler sort of move: by emphasizing careful defense before being launching anything remotely aggressive, we guard ourselves against Black's threats in a much more stable sort of way--though without pressing him with threats of our own.
LaXer, who's on the side of 20. Nf1, concedes on the 20. Nf3 page that "these lines are decent and as you said, safe, it all comes down to how you like to play chess. I prefer Nf1 because of the dynamic position that arises afterwards, but I'd have no problems playing Nf3." If everyone voting for Nf1 thinks this way, then I have no problems with whatever move we end up choosing: that's what democracy's about. Vote for the move you like--but be informed.
TL;DR:
Nf3 = safe; Nf1 = crazy
Nf3 = pretty good chance of winning (imo), very low chance of losing; Nf1 = everything's up in the air
PS- Blazinghand, why are you so set on offering a draw when there's still play in the position?
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Hong Kong9164 Posts
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Deadline is not over.
I do the magic in a while. Probably post a move tomorrow I hope.
Cheers!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JAQwp.png)
