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On November 06 2011 09:35 qrs wrote:20. g3+ Show Spoiler [rationale] +Eliminates the threat of a back-rank mate, begins play on the Kingside, doesn't commit the Knight early. Nf1 is slow: in various lines that we've looked at, it never ends up getting to e3 because of Black's counterplay. Prior analysis on the current position can be found here. Changing my vote to 20. Nf3.
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On November 06 2011 10:15 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 09:35 qrs wrote:20. g3+ Show Spoiler [rationale] +Eliminates the threat of a back-rank mate, begins play on the Kingside, doesn't commit the Knight early. Nf1 is slow: in various lines that we've looked at, it never ends up getting to e3 because of Black's counterplay. Prior analysis on the current position can be found here. Changing my vote to 20. Nf3.
Outta curiosity, why did you vote g3 in the fist place? I got a suspicion why but I really am not sure.
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On November 06 2011 10:32 mastergriggy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 10:15 qrs wrote:On November 06 2011 09:35 qrs wrote:20. g3+ Show Spoiler [rationale] +Eliminates the threat of a back-rank mate, begins play on the Kingside, doesn't commit the Knight early. Nf1 is slow: in various lines that we've looked at, it never ends up getting to e3 because of Black's counterplay. Prior analysis on the current position can be found here. Changing my vote to 20. Nf3. Outta curiosity, why did you vote g3 in the fist place? I got a suspicion why but I really am not sure. Heh, I know voting for a move and then changing my vote so quickly looks like I had some reason for doing that, but there's not really much to it. 20. g3 was a move that I'd thought about on general principle (for the reasons given in my original post), but most of the analysis had focused on other moves, so I hadn't spent much time actually looking at it.
Especially once I checked out the thread and saw a bandwagon already starting to form for Nf1, I wanted to get my vote out quickly so people wouldn't assume that there were only one or two moves worth looking at here. Then I actually began looking at g3 and it ended up looking like it's just too slow + Show Spoiler +20...c5 seems to work pretty well against it so I switched to the more solid Nf3, which has seemed pretty sound in every line that we've looked at it.
Nf1 may be all right too, but I'd caution people against assuming that + Show Spoiler +we'll necessarily be able to play Ne3 down the line. Also, I'd urge people to look at the prior analysis linked above: a fair bit has already done (and every move that people have voted for so far is covered to one degree or another); why let it go to waste?
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On November 05 2011 23:18 hp.Shell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 22:52 LaXerCannon wrote:On November 05 2011 22:02 hp.Shell wrote:20. Rb1+ Show Spoiler +Black has allowed us to go two pawns up. It is very advantageous for us to trade material. Though Rb1 doesn't force a Rook trade, it does force an awkward move by black.
20. Rb1 Bb5 21. Nf3 and we have essentially obtained a free move (Rb1). 20. Rb1 Bb4 21. a3xb4 20. Rb1 Rxb1 21. Nxb1 opens the bishop and allows us to attack d5 on the next move with 22. Nc3. (example continuation: 20. Rb1 Rxb1 21. Nxb1 Rb8 22. Nc3 Kd6 23. Bf4+)
20. Rb1 Rc8 21. Nf3 c5 22. Be3 + Show Spoiler + second line 20.Rb1 Bb4 21. a3xb4 is checkmate with 21... Rxe1 22. Nf1 Rxf1# third line
I propose Nf1 in preparation for Ne3, which is a far more active square
+ Show Spoiler +Fine. Anything against this line? 20. Rb1 Bb4 21. Rxe8 Rxe8 22. g3
Yup...+ Show Spoiler + 22...Re1+ 23. Kg2 Bxd2.
I dont see the reason of doing Rb1. It does absolutely nothing of importances. It doesnt solve our current problem and that is that our knight is trapping out bishop and keeping everyone on the left pinned. If you were to do it, it would just be sitting there doing nothing and wasted a tempo.
I vote 20. Nf3
+ Show Spoiler + Opens up the bishop and keep pressure on the center and the possibility of doing Ne5. Also protect e1.
Why I dislike Nf1 + Show Spoiler + It not a bad alternative but it seems kinda passive. You can do Ne3 afterward but then he could do Bd6 and the e8 rook will pinned us. This will also mean that our bishop will once again....be trap....kinda but it does limit it mobility.
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20.Nf1
+ Show Spoiler +We can always play our knight to g3 instead of e3. This has the advantage that the knight can still go to f5, or it can also go to h5 where it threatens the pawn on f6 and also potentially forks the king and rook. This way we don't block the e-file. Playing Nf3 seems ok, but after that the knight isn't going anywhere without a bunch of intermediate moves, and it's also blocking the advance of our kingside pawns.
Nf1 is the move with options.
The main threat I think would be from 20...Rb3, since I'm not that keen to put the knight back on d2 like in my other line, but we may also be able to play Ne3 here, which may be a better way of keeping our pieces free.
e.g. 20.Nf1 Rb3 21.Ne3 c6 (21...Rd3 22.Nxd5 Rxd4 23.Nxe7 Rxe7 24.Be3 looks great for white) 22.Nf5 (this is similar to some of the lines I've posted previously) 22...Bf8 (22...Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8 24.Bd2 Rd3 25.Bb4) 23.Rxe8 Kxe8 and then we might start pushing our kingside pawns 24.h3
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On November 06 2011 14:26 hype[NZ] wrote:20.Nf1+ Show Spoiler +We can always play our knight to g3 instead of e3. This has the advantage that the knight can still go to f5, or it can also go to h5 where it threatens the pawn on f6 and also potentially forks the king and rook. This way we don't block the e-file. Playing Nf3 seems ok, but after that the knight isn't going anywhere without a bunch of intermediate moves, and it's also blocking the advance of our kingside pawns.
Nf1 is the move with options.
The main threat I think would be from 20...Rb3, since I'm not that keen to put the knight back on d2 like in my other line, but we may also be able to play Ne3 here, which may be a better way of keeping our pieces free.
e.g. 20.Nf1 Rb3 21.Ne3 c6 (21...Rd3 22.Nxd5 Rxd4 23.Nxe7 Rxe7 24.Be3 looks great for white) 22.Nf5 (this is similar to some of the lines I've posted previously) 22...Bf8 (22...Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8 24.Bd2 Rd3 25.Bb4) 23.Rxe8 Kxe8 and then we might start pushing our kingside pawns 24.h3 I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but won't you use the analysis tree? In the first place, if you looked at the entry for + Show Spoiler +(which can be found here) you'd see that your suggestion has already been addressed (I don't mean refuted), so you'd be able to respond to that. Secondly, I can see it being tedious to create a page for each move in your lines, but is it really so hard to at least create one new topic page for the first place that your line branches off from what's been suggested before, and then post the rest of your line as text, and link to your new branch? As I've said a couple of times, I really think that it's helpful to have our analysis organized and accessible, as opposed to piling up in posts which are hard to sort through when they start piling up.
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20. Nf3
+ Show Spoiler +Not sure moving the knight here is a good idea here, but I feel we could really use our bishop to generate some offense. Hope this move is not bad, but i can't find a better move right now.
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20. Nf1
+ Show Spoiler +Rethought my move; wider zone of control by knight on e3 and no other moves urgently needed by white.
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20. Nf1
I've made my case as to why this move is better than 20. Nf3
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20. Nf3
+ Show Spoiler + 20. Nf1 I believe will have problem with 20... c5, where pawn exchange will be forced and black get a good pass pawn with bishops to support it's advance. I think our 2 pawns on the a file will take no further role in this game unless we can trade our knight for the white bishop, which I don't see happening. Therefore our material advantage is not as great as it looks.
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On November 07 2011 13:34 dtvu wrote:20. Nf3+ Show Spoiler + 20. Nf1 I believe will have problem with 20... c5, where pawn exchange will be forced and black get a good pass pawn with bishops to support it's advance. I think our 2 pawns on the a file will take no further role in this game unless we can trade our knight for the white bishop, which I don't see happening. Therefore our material advantage is not as great as it looks.
+ Show Spoiler +20... c5 is weak as the logical response is to develop the bishop. Black profits little from such an exchange of pawns, as it loses the ability to support the d pawn and White's isolated pawn is less valuable by definition.
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After looking at things a little more, I've decided to change my vote to 20. Nf3.
+ Show Spoiler +Nf3 feels much more direct, faster. It guards both our center and our rook, effectively developing the knight with one less move than Nf1.
As others have pointed out, there are some small problems with Nf1-Ne3. It block in our bishop once again, and it opens the possibility for the rook pin, which can be very annoying in a couple lines I've been looking at. We could alternatively play Nf1-Ng3, but the knight seems much less useful there than the immediate Nf3.
In the lines where black plays a quick c5, it seems better to have a knight on f3, giving us the option of either defending our pawn or trading it away, instead of forcing a trade.
I know these arguments are kind of vague, which is why I've been having trouble recently picking my moves, and therefore I haven't been offering as much analysis as I used to because I'm simply not as convinced what the best move it. I'll just say that Nf3 feels more solid here.
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On November 07 2011 14:09 jdseemoreglass wrote:After looking at things a little more, I've decided to change my vote to 20. Nf3.+ Show Spoiler +Nf3 feels much more direct, faster. It guards both our center and our rook, effectively developing the knight with one less move than Nf1.
As others have pointed out, there are some small problems with Nf1-Ne3. It block in our bishop once again, and it opens the possibility for the rook pin, which can be very annoying in a couple lines I've been looking at. We could alternatively play Nf1-Ng3, but the knight seems much less useful there than the immediate Nf3.
In the lines where black plays a quick c5, it seems better to have a knight on f3, giving us the option of either defending our pawn or trading it away, instead of forcing a trade.
I know these arguments are kind of vague, which is why I've been having trouble recently picking my moves, and therefore I haven't been offering as much analysis as I used to because I'm simply not as convinced what the best move it. I'll just say that Nf3 feels more solid here.
There is a lot of analysis to back them up so no worries about being vague. As far as I can tell, there are no obvious massive blunders with it.
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On November 07 2011 14:28 mastergriggy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 14:09 jdseemoreglass wrote:After looking at things a little more, I've decided to change my vote to 20. Nf3.+ Show Spoiler +Nf3 feels much more direct, faster. It guards both our center and our rook, effectively developing the knight with one less move than Nf1.
As others have pointed out, there are some small problems with Nf1-Ne3. It block in our bishop once again, and it opens the possibility for the rook pin, which can be very annoying in a couple lines I've been looking at. We could alternatively play Nf1-Ng3, but the knight seems much less useful there than the immediate Nf3.
In the lines where black plays a quick c5, it seems better to have a knight on f3, giving us the option of either defending our pawn or trading it away, instead of forcing a trade.
I know these arguments are kind of vague, which is why I've been having trouble recently picking my moves, and therefore I haven't been offering as much analysis as I used to because I'm simply not as convinced what the best move it. I'll just say that Nf3 feels more solid here. There is a lot of analysis to back them up so no worries about being vague. As far as I can tell, there are no obvious massive blunders with it. lol griggy, when are you going to change your signature? I thought it was only supposed to be one week?
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On November 07 2011 12:18 LaXerCannon wrote: 20. Nf1
I've made my case as to why this move is better than 20. Nf3 Thanks for making your case on the analysis tree, LaXer (here and here). I've already made my own case as to why that's a good thing.
Meanwhile, I looked at the line you gave after 20. Nf1 and I have to admit that your 22nd move is stronger than I'd thought at first glance. I added your line to the tree and extended it until this position, which I had trouble assessing. There seems to be some interesting play for both sides here. I'm not sure who's ahead. What does everyone else think?
Currently, the above seems to be a critical position for 20. Nf1, as if from this position the game turns out well for us, I don't know of any other Black threats to this line that we're worried about.
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Tough call...
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +20. Nf3 immediately yields more central control, protecting both d4 and e1, not exposing to possible capture by Ba6 and finally, isn't it a perfect position for a Knight in front of his castled King?
On the other hand, the plan Nf1-g3-f5 provides us a permanent Knight on agressive square... Connecting it with moves like Bf4 and Rac1, pressuring weak pawn, it might realistically be better. OK, I vote for 20. Nf1.
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On November 07 2011 18:23 popzags wrote:Tough call... + Show Spoiler [Analysis] +20. Nf3 immediately yields more central control, protecting both d4 and e1, not exposing to possible capture by Ba6 and finally, isn't it a perfect position for a Knight in front of his castled King?
On the other hand, the plan Nf1-g3-f5 provides us a permanent Knight on agressive square... Connecting it with moves like Bf4 and Rac1, pressuring weak pawn, it might realistically be better. OK, I vote for 20. Nf1. Let me just point out that our Knight can reach the same square in the same number of moves after Nf3, + Show Spoiler +so that doesn't seem like an argument to play Nf1 over Nf3.
Anyway, what's your opinion of the position given in my previous post?
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