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On November 03 2011 19:55 hype[NZ] wrote:19.bxa5Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 01:24 qrs wrote:Edit: in fact, more specifically, what do we do against this? + Show Spoiler +How about 25.dxc5 Bxc5 26.Be3 d4 27.Be2
We might actually be able to do that if he plays 20...c5 as well, not sure if it is better than Ne3 because I haven't had time to check it out. + Show Spoiler +I assume you mean 27. B d2. ( position) Here, I haven't analyzed this out to a win/draw for Black or anything like that, but the position worries me. Black's pieces are co-ordinated and continuing to exert pressure on us and his central passed pawn is looking fairly dangerous, as he can support it with all his pieces, and it controls important squares in its own right. Meanwhile, our pieces are still playing defense; the Knight in particular is doing almost nothing for us on f1, and the plan of Ne3 which is its reason for being there no longer looks like it will materialize any time soon. I assume that your plan with 27. Bd2 is to follow up with 28. Bb4, where if Black plays 28...BxB 29. PxB RxP, we have a very strong resource in 30. a6, now that our pawn is supported by our Rook. It's a good plan, and I like the ingenious little Be3 ...d4 Bd2 maneuver that you added to remove tactics involving f2, but what if Black plays 27...Ba6? This move clears the way for Black to advance the d-pawn, if he chooses. Also, it gets the Bishop off the third rank, which helps introduce the new tactical threat of BxP (see below). Most importantly, it blockades our a5 pawn, giving Black the freedom to grab the a3 pawn (should the opportunity arise) without fear of a6. After 27. Bd2 Ba6, Bb4 is not nearly as attractive a move as it had been, for without being backed by the threat of a6, it simply gives Black back a pawn. Meanwhile, Black threatens to take the pawn immediately with ...Bxa3, the point being that if we simply capture the Bishop with Rxa3, ...Rb1 wins the Knight at the least. I don't see a good way of answering this threat. 28. Bc1 is very passive and sends our Bishop back to square (c)1. 28. a4 removes the threat for the time being, but it also removes b4 as a possible square for our Bishop, leading to a position where, once again, I think that Black has all the play. ( 28...Rb2 and what do we do now?) It's true that we're two pawns up, so technically we can return one and still be in the lead, but with the a5 pawn blockaded and far from us, Black's d-pawn a clear and present danger and supportable at long range at d3 by the Bishop, and the mobility problems of our King and Knight, I don't think that we can afford to simply give Black the a3 pawn without compensation. What do you advise after 27...Ba6? On November 03 2011 19:58 greggy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 19:55 hype[NZ] wrote:19.bxa5On November 02 2011 01:24 qrs wrote:Edit: in fact, more specifically, what do we do against this? + Show Spoiler +How about 25.dxc5 Bxc5 26.Be3 d4 27.Be2
We might actually be able to do that if he plays 20.c5 as well, not sure if it is better than Ne3 because I haven't had time to check it out. + Show Spoiler + That move is illegal on move 20; which move did you mean? If you were asking about playing it directly on move 26, in hype's line, I think the reason for his interpolation was + Show Spoiler +to provoke d4 so that we can meet ...Rb2 with Bb4. If Black hasn't played ...d4, this is not an option (nor is Bc3) because of the threat to our pawn on f2. On another note, I'd like to appeal to you guys to post your analyses to the tree I made. I deleted the long introduction which made the thing look much more complicated than it really is, and if you don't want to bother adding a whole line, move by move, then don't even do that, but at least could you, say, add a new branch for the first move in your line that isn't currently covered by the tree, and then post the rest of your analysis as a comment on that position? That shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes longer than it does to post the analysis here in the forum.
The reason I'm trying to get people to use this tree is not because it's necessarily a better way to follow the analysis when it's first posted, but because IMHO it's a much better way of keeping track of the analysis afterwards. On every move where we've had a lot of analysis posted, anyone who hasn't been reading every single post in the thread has had a very hard time catching up with the state of analysis, figuring out what the latest lines are, and so forth. A couple of times I tried to fill the gap by posting a summary, but that's slow and laborious work to do after the fact. If we all post our lines to the tree, I think that keeping track of the latest state of the analysis will become much simpler.
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I've decided that I'm gonna analyze one specific black response to our move, and maybe other people can analyse other moves?
+ Show Spoiler +The move that I'm looking at for black in particular (although I don't think it is black's most active response) is 19...Rb5 20. a4 Rxa5 21. Nb3 Ra7 Note: Although black can also play 21...Ra8, I find this highly unlikely, as it makes the black c-pawn a much more valuable target as well as being a very passive move. + Show Spoiler [22. Nc5+] +This move is really bad. 22. Nc5+ Bxc5 23. Rxe8 Bxd4 24. Rxc8 Bxa1 25. Rh8 Rxa4 26. Rxh7+ Kd6 is basically losing for white. + Show Spoiler [22. Bf4] + 22. Bf4 is primarily to stop black from playing Bd6, i.e. 22...Bd6 23. Rxe8 Kxe8 24. Bxd6 cxd6 and black has a doubled set of isolated pawns.
A line might go like 22...Bb4 23. Rec1 or Rxe8 either look fine for white.
22...Rb7 23. Nc5+ Bxc5 24. Rxe8 Kxe8 25. dxc5 looks fine for white. Note that black doesn't have the tactical options he had earlier because the rooks are connected now. Note that if white doesn't capture the rook first, black can forcibly recover his pawn, i.e. 24. dxc5 Rxe1 25. Rxe1 Rb4.
+ Show Spoiler [22. Be3] + There isn't so much of an idea behind this move (a given line), as there is just a good reason to play it. it connects the rooks, keeps the black, black bishop from moving to b4, and helps prepare us if we want to play a5, and with it mobilizing the rook behind it. Looks good and black doesn't have any sharp responses (I'm expecting Bd6), but I don't think it is our best move. If black does happen to respond to 21. Nb3 with Ra8, I think we need to go full force after that c pawn, I.e. Bf4, Rec1. Like I said, I don't know if black will play Rb5 (I somewhat doubt it in fact), but I wanted to provide analysis should he happen to. I'm gonna look through some of the c5 responses next.
Edit 1: And qrs, I am very confused as to how you post the new topic in the analysis tree. I'm gonna try to figure it out.
Edit 2: No such luck. I can't find a place to create an account or to post a new topic. It let's me respond to the topics you create, but I can't find a place to post a new one for a new move set.
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Well i voted a b3, but no matter
19. bxa4
should be obvious i guess.. Im not good enough for all the in-depth analysis, just read and agree :p
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On November 04 2011 00:32 mastergriggy wrote:I've decided that I'm gonna analyze one specific black response to our move, and maybe other people can analyse other moves? + Show Spoiler +The move that I'm looking at for black in particular (although I don't think it is black's most active response) is 19...Rb5 20. a4 Rxa5 21. Nb3 Ra7 Note: Although black can also play 21...Ra8, I find this highly unlikely, as it makes the black c-pawn a much more valuable target as well as being a very passive move. + Show Spoiler [22. Nc5+] +This move is really bad. 22. Nc5+ Bxc5 23. Rxe8 Bxd4 24. Rxc8 Bxa1 25. Rh8 Rxa4 26. Rxh7+ Kd6 is basically losing for white. + Show Spoiler [22. Bf4] + 22. Bf4 is primarily to stop black from playing Bd6, i.e. 22...Bd6 23. Rxe8 Kxe8 24. Bxd5 cxd5 and black has a doubled set of isolated pawns.
A line might go like 22...Bb4 23. Rec1 or Rxe8 either look fine for white.
22...Rb7 23. Nc5+ Bxc5 24. Rxe8 Kxe8 25. dxc5 looks fine for white. Note that black doesn't have the tactical options he had earlier because the rooks are connected now. Note that if white doesn't capture the rook first, black can forcibly recover his pawn, i.e. 24. dxc5 Rxe1 25. Rxe1 Rb4.
+ Show Spoiler [22. Be3] + There isn't so much of an idea behind this move (a given line), as there is just a good reason to play it. it connects the rooks, keeps the black, black bishop from moving to b4, and helps prepare us if we want to play a5, and with it mobilizing the rook behind it. Looks good and black doesn't have any sharp responses (I'm expecting Bd6), but I don't think it is our best move. If black does happen to respond to 21. Nb3 with Ra8, I think we need to go full force after that c pawn, I.e. Bf4, Rec1. Like I said, I don't know if black will play Rb5 (I somewhat doubt it in fact), but I wanted to provide analysis should he happen to. I'm gonna look through some of the c5 responses next. And qrs, I am very confused as to how you post the new topic in the analysis tree. I'm gonna try to figure it out. At first I wrote a long introduction explaining every detail, but no one posted anything except for hype, so I thought maybe the length of the intro was putting people off. Then I deleted most of the intro, but it sounds like now it's gone too far in the other direction. I'll go create a separate help page with all the details.
About the move you're looking at, it's on the tree here, although without much discussion yet. Your analysis will definitely be helpful.
Edit 2: No such luck. I can't find a place to create an account or to post a new topic. It let's me respond to the topics you create, but I can't find a place to post a new one for a new move set. In the upper left of any topic page that you happen to be looking at, you should see a button marked New Topic. Click that to create your topic (it will prompt you to register; the process takes seconds); then copy the URL and go back to the topic for the previous move to post the link to your new branch.
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Alright, thanks, I'm gonna take a shot at posting it.
I got it to work, but I'm not sure how to make the words, a hyper link
Wait no I got it. Alright, I link the rest after I get off from school.
YAY, after editing this message like six hundred times I think I've gotten the hang of it. I think it would be cool if we could go back through the first few moves and add that analysis too just to have a full game (wishful thinking I know).
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White is pawn up and better pawn structure. I think 19. bxa5 while creates further material gain this gain will be easily taken back as white will struggle hard to defend a doubled pawn. I'm not sure but I think 19. Nb3 is a pretty good option here as 19...axb4 20. a4 will set up a protected passed pawn for both sides, but white effectively blocks it with a Knight and opens the c1-h6 diagonal for the horrible Bishop here, and f4 powerful square for the Bishop as it pins the weak c7 pawn in place and forces it's defense.
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On November 04 2011 00:57 mastergriggy wrote: Alright, thanks, I'm gonna take a shot at posting it.
I got it to work, but I'm not sure how to make the words, a hyper link
Wait no I got it. Alright, I link the rest after I get off from school.
YAY, after editing this message like six hundred times I think I've gotten the hang of it. I think it would be cool if we could go back through the first few moves and add that analysis too just to have a full game (wishful thinking I know). Thanks for posting to the tree. Sorry about how long it took. I just spent the last hour+ rewriting out step-by-step instructions for adding positions to the tree (I wish I'd saved them the first time!), so hopefully no one else will have to figure it all out on their own.
One point that I had to figure out the hard way is that direct links to positions in Apronus don't work on Quick Topic, because it does some auto-formatting that messes up the URL, so you need to go through the extra step of pasting the original URL (not one that Quick Topic has already ruined) into http://tinyurl.com to convert it to something that won't cause any problems.
The link restriction is also really annoying, as you point out in your post. I wish I'd known about it from the beginning; then I'd have looked for a less restrictive host for the tree, but at this point it's easiest to just work around it. I think you've found the best workaround, which is just to create a new post or two for any link overflow.
I'll have a look at your analysis when I get a chance.
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On November 04 2011 02:05 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: White is pawn up and better pawn structure. I think 19. bxa5 while creates further material gain this gain will be easily taken back as white will struggle hard to defend a doubled pawn. I'm not sure but I think 19. Nb3 is a pretty good option here as 19...axb4 20. a4 will set up a protected passed pawn for both sides, but white effectively blocks it with a Knight and opens the c1-h6 diagonal for the horrible Bishop here, and f4 powerful square for the Bishop as it pins the weak c7 pawn in place and forces it's defense.
You make good points, but at the same time, Black can effectively block our passed pawn as well, with ...Ba6, and he can relieve the pin of the c7 pawn without much trouble e.g. by playing ...Rb6. IMO, the position is fairly equal. Do you really think it's worth giving up our extra pawn to reach it?
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I tried the tinyURL and to know luck, so I may just post the position or something until I figure out how to do that.
Edit: Also I'm editing my other posts to try to include the correct PGN's but the tiny links for the main line isn't working (the ones for just diagrams do though...weird)
And since I'm here why not post a bit more analysis concerning, + Show Spoiler +20...Rb4
First, I'd like to say that it's very unlikely black will simply play Rb8 or b7, as it seems to have wasted the last move of moving the rook up in the first place, so I won't post any analysis.
I think white's best response to Rb4 is 21. Nf3. This move defends the d pawn from attack and allows for the Bishop to be freed from the back rank.
21...Bd6 can be countered with 22. Be3 and the mobility of white's rooks vs. black's somewhat tangled units (not to mention pawn up) a great chance for winning. (21...Bd6 22. Be3 Ba6 23. Rec1)
21...c5 still looks pretty strong. Maybe black has something better there?
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Hong Kong9151 Posts
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On November 04 2011 04:16 mastergriggy wrote:I tried the tinyURL and to know luck, so I may just post the position or something until I figure out how to do that. Edit: Also I'm editing my other posts to try to include the correct PGN's but the tiny links for the main line isn't working (the ones for just diagrams do though...weird) And since I'm here why not post a bit more analysis concerning, + Show Spoiler +20...Rb4
First, I'd like to say that it's very unlikely black will simply play Rb8 or b7, as it seems to have wasted the last move of moving the rook up in the first place, so I won't post any analysis.
I think white's best response to Rb4 is 21. Nf3. This move defends the d pawn from attack and allows for the Bishop to be freed from the back rank.
21...Bd6 can be countered with 22. Be3 and the mobility of white's rooks vs. black's somewhat tangled units (not to mention pawn up) a great chance for winning. (21...Bd6 22. Be3 Ba6 23. Rec1)
21...c5 still looks pretty strong. Maybe black has something better there?
+ Show Spoiler +if black plays 20...Rb4 we can play 21.axb4 right?
edit: nevermind, you mean 19...Rb5 20.a4 Rb4
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On November 04 2011 06:07 hype[NZ] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 04:16 mastergriggy wrote:I tried the tinyURL and to know luck, so I may just post the position or something until I figure out how to do that. Edit: Also I'm editing my other posts to try to include the correct PGN's but the tiny links for the main line isn't working (the ones for just diagrams do though...weird) And since I'm here why not post a bit more analysis concerning, + Show Spoiler +20...Rb4
First, I'd like to say that it's very unlikely black will simply play Rb8 or b7, as it seems to have wasted the last move of moving the rook up in the first place, so I won't post any analysis.
I think white's best response to Rb4 is 21. Nf3. This move defends the d pawn from attack and allows for the Bishop to be freed from the back rank.
21...Bd6 can be countered with 22. Be3 and the mobility of white's rooks vs. black's somewhat tangled units (not to mention pawn up) a great chance for winning. (21...Bd6 22. Be3 Ba6 23. Rec1)
21...c5 still looks pretty strong. Maybe black has something better there?
+ Show Spoiler +if black plays 20...Rb4 we can play 21.axb4 right?
edit: nevermind, you mean 19...Rb5 20.a4 Rb4
Yeah that line, I should have been more specific. Also, as it turns out (mentioned in my last post)
+ Show Spoiler +
21...c5 is really bad for black, 22. dxc5 Bxc5 23. Rxe8 Kxe8 24.Ba3 Rc4 (24...Rxa4 25. Re1+ winning a piece) looks great for white.
21...Ba6 22. Bd2 Rb2 looks promising for black, although it does seem like sooner or later he'll need to recapture the pawn.
Overall my view for black on 20...Rb4 seems like it is somewhat of a weaker move due to the tactics it gives white as well as allowing white to rearrange his pieces quite a bit before black can recapture one of the pawns. One of black's strengths is that he has us locked down, but by playing Rb4 it somewhat relieves pressure on us thanks to the strength of Nf3.
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On November 04 2011 04:16 mastergriggy wrote: I tried the tinyURL and to know luck, so I may just post the position or something until I figure out how to do that.
Edit: Also I'm editing my other posts to try to include the correct PGN's but the tiny links for the main line isn't working (the ones for just diagrams do though...weird) Here's the story with that, if you want to know (deduced from playing around with a test post). The folks who designed Quick Topic wanted to avoid long text strings of text that overrun the width of their display fields, so they added a few lines of server-side code to touch your text up before posting. Nothing unusual about that--lots of forums do similar things--including autoconverting URLs into hyperlinks. For a while, TL would even change references to "poker" to link to liquidpoker.net (do they still do that? [edit: apparently not]).
Unfortunately, over at Quick Topic they did a pretty lousy job of it.
The first thing that their misguided algorithm does is to look for strings of text that are longer than 65 letters. Since they use a variable-width font (not every character has the same width), a string's character count isn't an exact proxy for its length, though it's obviously correlated; for most characters, the limit of 65 is smaller than necessary to prevent strings overrunning the line, but I doubt they put much thought into the exact number; just did a quick bit of trial-and-error and figured 65 was good enough, which I suppose it is.
To slightly complicate the matter, the algorithm seems to inexplicably view alphanumeric characters (+ underscore) and non-alphanumeric characters as separate entities (even though as far as text wrapping goes, they're not) so that it only looks at strings of consecutive alphanumeric characters or consecutive non-alphanumeric characters when applying its benighted logic. (It also seems to treat various non-ASCII characters more or less as whitespace.)
The next thing that their algorithm does--and this is so stupid that it has to be a bug in the code--is to "fix" the strings, not by inserting spaces every 65 letters, but by overwriting every 65th letter with a space. Naturally, this loses information, and that's why your Apronus links didn't work once the server had messed with them--obviously converting to TinyURLs at that point doesn't fix the underlying link.
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On November 04 2011 04:16 mastergriggy wrote:And since I'm here why not post a bit more analysis concerning, + Show Spoiler +20...Rb4
First, I'd like to say that it's very unlikely black will simply play Rb8 or b7, as it seems to have wasted the last move of moving the rook up in the first place, so I won't post any analysis.
I think white's best response to Rb4 is 21. Nf3. This move defends the d pawn from attack and allows for the Bishop to be freed from the back rank.
21...Bd6 can be countered with 22. Be3 and the mobility of white's rooks vs. black's somewhat tangled units (not to mention pawn up) a great chance for winning. (21...Bd6 22. Be3 Ba6 23. Rec1) + Show Spoiler +First of all, it's not necessarily true that 20...Rb8/b7 would have wasted the last move of moving the Rook up in the first place, as moving the Rook up is what provokes us to play a4. If that move weakens us, then that's all the justification Black needs for moving the Rook up in the first place. I first looked at 20...Rb4/20...Rb8 out of principle. In other lines we'd been looking at, we had played Nf1, and at that point, a move like ...Rb4 is rather more threatening, since we don't have Nf3 as a defense. Of course in these lines, we have Nf3, but so far we'd been preferring Nf1 (intending Ne3), so my starting assumption was that forcing us to play Nf3 instead would be a victory for Black. As it turned out (and as I said when I first mentioned Rb4 on the 19...Rb5 20. a4 page) 21. Nf3 ended up looking quite solid for us once we were forced into playing it. That turned my thoughts in the other direction--why shouldn't we consider playing Nf3 instead of Nf1 even in lines where we aren't forced to? We had dismissed the move earlier--but the last time we gave it any consideration was on move 18, and the situation is not the same now that we don't have a b-pawn. I posted to this effect on the 19...Ba6 page. TL;DR I agree that White's best response to (19...Rb5 20. a4) Rb4 is Nf3. In fact, at first glance it looks so solid that I think we should consider making it our mainline plan in all lines (replacing the previous plan of Nf1-Ne3).
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Move 19 votes + Show Spoiler [votes] +19. bxa5: 20 (qrs, jdseemoreglass, hp.shell, Malinor, timh, Sm3agol, Raysalis, dtvu, Chezus, EvilNalu, Mash2, chesshaha, sGs.Kal_rA, Malli, WuBu, GenesisX, Psilver, hype[NZ], ffreakk, itsjustatank) 19. Nc4: 0 19. Ne4: 0 19. Kh1: 0 + Show Spoiler [bar graph] +
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Hong Kong9151 Posts
Are those the twin towers?
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On November 04 2011 15:14 hp.Shell wrote:Move 19 votes + Show Spoiler [votes] +19. bxa5: 20 (qrs, jdseemoreglass, hp.shell, Malinor, timh, Sm3agol, Raysalis, dtvu, Chezus, EvilNalu, Mash2, chesshaha, sGs.Kal_rA, Malli, WuBu, GenesisX, Psilver, hype[NZ], ffreakk, itsjustatank) 19. Nc4: 0 19. Ne4: 0 19. Kh1: 0 + Show Spoiler [bar graph] + Ha! Thanks for the tally, and nice graph.
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On November 04 2011 15:36 itsjustatank wrote:Are those the twin towers? lol wtf? It looks like the twin towers with a plane pointed towards them...
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On November 04 2011 16:43 jdseemoreglass wrote:lol wtf? It looks like the twin towers with a plane pointed towards them... Yeah... Wtf o.0
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I guess deadline's over now. I'll do the clean-up in a sec.
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