EPTFinal Fantasy General Thread - Page 42
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Soan
New Zealand194 Posts
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
On December 07 2013 17:24 WolfintheSheep wrote: Your idea of normal play is what's usually referred to as being a munchkin, optimizing in a game that has no express reason for optimizing. It also requires in-depth knowledge of a game, or a step-by-step following of a detailed walkthrough, before you even touch the game for the first time. First (and mostly only times) I touched any Final Fantasy game I just dove straight in, figured out mechanics on the fly, missed more than half of the secret crap, played several areas under-leveled or over-leveled, but still beat them. FF8 included. The game explains to you what Junctioning is, and how it works. I don't think they explained the level scaling, but its easy enough to figure out. It doesn't require any in-depth knowledge of the game. It just involves 1.) having the game explain junctioning, and 2.) knowing enemies scale based on your level. Then its just common sense what comes next. It doesn't even require a step-by-step detailed walkthrough. Doing it is easy as hell, lol. You are acting like I'm suggesting some complex speed-run strategy, or something. Any sane person tries to "optimize" their playthrough when they play a game "normally". For example, if you get a really good weapon for a character, and equip said weapon, that is "optimizing" your playhtrough. If one of your characters gets poisoned, you cure them of poison. When you get magic, you junction it. Etc. All of this is you making the game easier. This is all "normal" stuff to do in the game, and this is all "optimizing". If you don't try to "optimize" your playthrough, that means you are intentionally trying to make things more difficult upon yourself. Is that playing normally? Intentionally trying to make the game harder? Of course not. You start playing the game, you pick up the mechanics as you play, and you do your best to try and beat it. The only difference between how you (apparently) played the game, and how I did, is that for some reason it never donned on you that leveling up was a bad thing. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On December 07 2013 17:40 Sentenal wrote: The game explains to you what Junctioning is, and how it works. I don't think they explained the level scaling, but its easy enough to figure out. It doesn't require any in-depth knowledge of the game. It just involves 1.) having the game explain junctioning, and 2.) knowing enemies scale based on your level. Then its just common sense what comes next. It doesn't even require a step-by-step detailed walkthrough. Doing it is easy as hell, lol. You are acting like I'm suggesting some complex speed-run strategy, or something. Any sane person tries to "optimize" their playthrough when they play a game "normally". If you don't try to "optimize" your playthrough, that means you are intentionally trying to make things more difficult upon yourself. Is that playing normally? Intentionally trying to make the game harder? Of course not. You start playing the game, you pick up the mechanics as you play, and you do your best to try and beat it. The only difference between how you (apparently) played the game, and how I did, is that for some reason it never donned on you that leveling up was a bad thing. Level scaling doesn't automatically mean that levels are bad...in fact, FF8 is actually one of the few where monster power goes up exponentially and linearly. And you wouldn't realize that until you were over level 40 or so. But still, "enemies level with me so I should avoid all exp" is not a normal game mentality...it's one that's built to abuse game mechanics. All I remember from my FF8 playthrough was realizing levels weren't actually giving me anything meaningful, so I just got them incidentally as I was levelling abilities. And if you were abusing all the ways to get AP without exp on your very first playthrough...once again, munchkin play. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On December 07 2013 17:53 WolfintheSheep wrote: Level scaling doesn't automatically mean that levels are bad...in fact, FF8 is actually one of the few where monster power goes up exponentially and linearly. And you wouldn't realize that until you were over level 40 or so. But still, "enemies level with me so I should avoid all exp" is not a normal game mentality...it's one that's built to abuse game mechanics. All I remember from my FF8 playthrough was realizing levels weren't actually giving me anything meaningful, so I just got them incidentally as I was levelling abilities. And if you were abusing all the ways to get AP without exp on your very first playthrough...once again, munchkin play. It's a normal game mentality. I mean, there is no point in levelling, so why fight monsters in the first place(except for some money)? I remember beating the game with my party ranging in levels from 9 to 15. The drawing magic system was retarded because you could just get really good spells easily. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Got the original lying around here somewhere but having a working version on Steam is less of a hassle. Still remember where to get all the GFs (thank god), upgrading the weapons is a bit trickier though (I remember Wendigo's give Steel Pipes and that's about it). Just got out of the prison (start of Disc 2 in the original) and now I have to get all the second stage Magic (cura, fira etc). Lots of draws...lots and lots of draws... It also sucks a bit that the magic you get to 100 and junction is kinda off-limits unless you want to reduce the stats. By the way, does anyone ever use the Item ability? 99% I go for Magic, GF and Draw and in that order. Rarely I'll get Card/Treatment but I've always stuck with Draw for some reason. Mostly though, I'm just happy I still remember where that #$%^&* White SeeD Ship is located. That took me *ages* in the original playthrough, well past the point where all my characters and the GFs I had were maxed out at lvl 100. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
On December 07 2013 22:33 Lucumo wrote: It's a normal game mentality. I mean, there is no point in levelling, so why fight monsters in the first place(except for some money)? Don't you get paid a salary in FF8? I don't think you even got money from winning battles. Not like there is much use for Money, anyway, considering you don't actually buy equipment in a shop every new town you visit. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On December 08 2013 04:55 Sentenal wrote: Don't you get paid a salary in FF8? I don't think you even got money from winning battles. Not like there is much use for Money, anyway, considering you don't actually buy equipment in a shop every new town you visit. Hm, it's been too long apparently. Anyway, with the money you were able to buy that ultima spell in the south-east-ish village. | ||
deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On December 08 2013 02:07 Thezzy wrote: Forgot how much fun it actually is to play FF8 again after all this time. Got the original lying around here somewhere but having a working version on Steam is less of a hassle. Still remember where to get all the GFs (thank god), upgrading the weapons is a bit trickier though (I remember Wendigo's give Steel Pipes and that's about it). Just got out of the prison (start of Disc 2 in the original) and now I have to get all the second stage Magic (cura, fira etc). Lots of draws...lots and lots of draws... It also sucks a bit that the magic you get to 100 and junction is kinda off-limits unless you want to reduce the stats. By the way, does anyone ever use the Item ability? 99% I go for Magic, GF and Draw and in that order. Rarely I'll get Card/Treatment but I've always stuck with Draw for some reason. Mostly though, I'm just happy I still remember where that #$%^&* White SeeD Ship is located. That took me *ages* in the original playthrough, well past the point where all my characters and the GFs I had were maxed out at lvl 100. I use item and Card ocasionally. You can get some broken items with Card Mod, some of which you might want to use towards the end of the game, and Item is useful at the beginning of the game before you get status junctions. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On December 08 2013 02:07 Thezzy wrote: Forgot how much fun it actually is to play FF8 again after all this time. Got the original lying around here somewhere but having a working version on Steam is less of a hassle. Still remember where to get all the GFs (thank god), upgrading the weapons is a bit trickier though (I remember Wendigo's give Steel Pipes and that's about it). Just got out of the prison (start of Disc 2 in the original) and now I have to get all the second stage Magic (cura, fira etc). Lots of draws...lots and lots of draws... It also sucks a bit that the magic you get to 100 and junction is kinda off-limits unless you want to reduce the stats. By the way, does anyone ever use the Item ability? 99% I go for Magic, GF and Draw and in that order. Rarely I'll get Card/Treatment but I've always stuck with Draw for some reason. Mostly though, I'm just happy I still remember where that #$%^&* White SeeD Ship is located. That took me *ages* in the original playthrough, well past the point where all my characters and the GFs I had were maxed out at lvl 100. I think FF8 was really the last game where I would spend hours figuring out all the weird mechanics, puzzles and side quests on my own. I remember being so happy figuring out the puzzles in the final dungeon... Ironically, it was also probably the game that made me give up and realize that a walkthrough was the only way to find all the secrets of games... So many good and bad memories from FF8... | ||
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HeatEXTEND
Netherlands836 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On December 08 2013 07:35 WolfintheSheep wrote: I think FF8 was really the last game where I would spend hours figuring out all the weird mechanics, puzzles and side quests on my own. I remember being so happy figuring out the puzzles in the final dungeon... Ironically, it was also probably the game that made me give up and realize that a walkthrough was the only way to find all the secrets of games... So many good and bad memories from FF8... Yeah, I figured out the steam puzzle in the Undersea Lab, but I question the sanity of anyone who did the UFO or lake quests without a fucking strategy guide. They boiled down to "Find a very small area on a very large, near featureless world map, then run around until you get the right random encounter" And don't get me started on the fucking talking head puzzle. I'm replaying it but rapidly losing interest...maybe it's because I have done 2 "100%" runs of the game. I got every GF, every ultimate weapon, everyone to lvl 100, all the cards (including the FUCKING card queen and her FUCKING bullshit sidequest where I had to reload 40 FUCKING times because of the FUCKING random/same/plus/elemental bullshit), and even Proof of Omega without cheesing it with Holy Wars. Oh yeah, and 300 Ultimas, 1 for each guy. Yeah, that's the part that took the longest. Oh yeah, and I got all the limit breaks, including all of Quistis's blue magic. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Leveling in this game is not that bad, as it unlock some great magic to draw on certain enemies. It's not optimal, but optimal is overkill by a lot in this game, like in most FFs. Anyway, gamefaqs has some great faqs for this game, like those : http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/51741 http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/10404 http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/4930 Those 3 are really incredible, they allow you to do everything as soon as it's possible, if you're a completionnist you'll love those =) | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On December 07 2013 22:33 Lucumo wrote: It's a normal game mentality. I mean, there is no point in levelling, so why fight monsters in the first place(except for some money)? I remember beating the game with my party ranging in levels from 9 to 15. The drawing magic system was retarded because you could just get really good spells easily. Well to have very good spells easily (and early) you still have to have an amount of knowledge (who plays which card, which card is good, going for card mod quickly..) that it's not really "playing the game normally" as it require prior knowledge or reading a faq. If you just follow the story, don't try to play cards with every single person in the garden multiple times to know their range of cards, don't go to the queen of card to get the direct/all rule, and well don't do some very specific steps you won't have tornado and so early. Now the amount of knowledge make that you'll play the game in a very strange way, but usually in your first play you won't do all that, I think that's what he meant by "playing normally". Even if you try to optimize everything, your way of optimizing will be very far from what is really optimizing for FF8. For me the real problem of FF8 is that they give you all these tools for being really powerful, but there are no challenges to match that power. In FF10 for instance, if you decide to go for real power, you'll have the dark animas, Der Richter, and a pair of hard battles to satisfy you. In FF12 too. In FF8 you'll just one shot everything and ask yourself if making a powerful party didn't ruin your enjoyment. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
I feel that for FF8, you can just "play" the game without anyone's help (no asking for advices, no strategy guides), and your character will progress naturally. While I understand the leveling part is very counter-intuitive, unless you intentionally grind your levels you won't come to a point that it becomes extremely detrimental to your gameplay - all you need to do is to Junction correctly and you are good to go. The character progression in FF8 relies on Junction, and it's fairly intuitive once you get over the leveling thing. By the way, IIRC leveling up makes you able to Draw better magics. The issue I have with FF6 is that, first of all, your character progression is very murky and hard to control. You get a huge chunk of your stats from equipping Espers while leveling up, but you don't get all Espers at the beginning of the game and some are better than others. This, in my opinion, is similar to FF8's leveling system that you get punished for leveling. Beyond this, however, FF6 also has the problem that you can't really tell if your character needs Strength or Magic - this problem is particularly annoying for Sabin whose moves scale with Magic. And finally, FF6's final dungeon is quite difficult, requiring a split party and quite a bit of investment to develop all your characters (correctly). Don't get me wrong, FF6 is a great game, but I find it so annoying and frustrating to play that I will never play it twice. This is just a symptom of the older games - making games frustratingly difficult as a way to increase replayability. I think if FF6 is remade, its leveling system need to be completely revamped to modern standard. On the other hand, I feel FF5 (and 2/3, which IIRC has the same system) actually has the best character progression. You are offered a lot of choices on which Job to pursue, but there is no way to ruin your character because your stats growth is not linked to your Job when you level up. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
I don't think having a limited option of early espers in FF6 is anything like FF8, which literally makes the game more difficult the more you level up. Plus, leveling up is kind of necessary in FF6. If you don't level up, things will be harder for you, plain and simple. You might be railroaded in the stats of certain characters due to limited espers, but thats still better than not leveling at all. | ||
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ETisME
12476 Posts
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
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Brett
Australia3820 Posts
I mean, technically, because of the bonus stats from espers, you're correct that for absolute min-maxing in the end game it would be better to be under levelled until you have all espers. But levelling is not going to make things more difficult, as it can in FF8. | ||
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