On July 13 2011 12:19 Adeny wrote: 6 seconds in to the video urien starts charging up his moves, while making it seem like he's not charging by dashing around, doing stand LP etc. Dudley thinks he's safe to whiff moves because urien can only reach him by tackle. The execution for this is fucking ridiculous mind you, messatsu is possibly the only person able to do this with enough ease and precision for it to be useful in matches.
You're overestimating the skill required for charge partitioning by a huge margin. Charge partitioning seems impossibly difficult at first, but for players who do it constantly it just becomes part of their movements. A friend of mine who is a very high level Urien player showed me how he keeps up his charge between every hit in a block string when I was first learning how 3s worked. Doing things like a standing flash kick with Remy or even a tachi-gigas takes some time to get down the muscle memory and then practice doing it with a moving target. It's similar to how amazing parries look to a bystander when done in real matches at clutch times, they seem psychic, but it's a skill developed with exposure.
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
Eddie from GG is much harder to play.
The timing isn't the difficult portion of charging like messatsu (although being a human metronome is no small task either). Rather being able to position yourself properly when you can't walk, and keeping momentum while masking charges and having some resemblance of pressure. You almost never see other uriens utilize it except for in pre-practiced scenarios like "block-strings" (not really in 3s), unblockables etc.
And to be fair I have no idea about eddie in GG, you might be right.
On July 13 2011 12:19 Adeny wrote: 6 seconds in to the video urien starts charging up his moves, while making it seem like he's not charging by dashing around, doing stand LP etc. Dudley thinks he's safe to whiff moves because urien can only reach him by tackle. The execution for this is fucking ridiculous mind you, messatsu is possibly the only person able to do this with enough ease and precision for it to be useful in matches.
You're overestimating the skill required for charge partitioning by a huge margin. Charge partitioning seems impossibly difficult at first, but for players who do it constantly it just becomes part of their movements. A friend of mine who is a very high level Urien player showed me how he keeps up his charge between every hit in a block string when I was first learning how 3s worked. Doing things like a standing flash kick with Remy or even a tachi-gigas takes some time to get down the muscle memory and then practice doing it with a moving target. It's similar to how amazing parries look to a bystander when done in real matches at clutch times, they seem psychic, but it's a skill developed with exposure.
On July 13 2011 12:47 Adeny wrote:
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
Eddie from GG is much harder to play.
The timing isn't the difficult portion of charging like messatsu (although being a human metronome is no small task either). Rather being able to position yourself properly when you can't walk, and keeping momentum while masking charges and having some resemblance of pressure. You almost never see other uriens utilize it except for in pre-practiced scenarios like "block-strings" (not really in 3s), unblockables etc.
And to be fair I have no idea about eddie in GG, you might be right.
Sorry, "block string" was a bad term, just used as habit. In between blocked normals he was able to maintain a charge. In GG the character Eddie plays in a very unique way. He is really two characters, Zato (the man) and Eddie (the shadow). When pressing a button down it is an input for Zato, when releasing a button it in an input for Eddie. So your combos require precise presses and releases. When paring this with the fast, aggressive pace of GG, it becomes incredibly hard.
On July 13 2011 12:19 Adeny wrote: 6 seconds in to the video urien starts charging up his moves, while making it seem like he's not charging by dashing around, doing stand LP etc. Dudley thinks he's safe to whiff moves because urien can only reach him by tackle. The execution for this is fucking ridiculous mind you, messatsu is possibly the only person able to do this with enough ease and precision for it to be useful in matches.
You're overestimating the skill required for charge partitioning by a huge margin. Charge partitioning seems impossibly difficult at first, but for players who do it constantly it just becomes part of their movements. A friend of mine who is a very high level Urien player showed me how he keeps up his charge between every hit in a block string when I was first learning how 3s worked. Doing things like a standing flash kick with Remy or even a tachi-gigas takes some time to get down the muscle memory and then practice doing it with a moving target. It's similar to how amazing parries look to a bystander when done in real matches at clutch times, they seem psychic, but it's a skill developed with exposure.
On July 13 2011 12:47 Adeny wrote:
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
Eddie from GG is much harder to play.
The timing isn't the difficult portion of charging like messatsu (although being a human metronome is no small task either). Rather being able to position yourself properly when you can't walk, and keeping momentum while masking charges and having some resemblance of pressure. You almost never see other uriens utilize it except for in pre-practiced scenarios like "block-strings" (not really in 3s), unblockables etc.
And to be fair I have no idea about eddie in GG, you might be right.
Sorry, "block string" was a bad term, just used as habit. In between blocked normals he was able to maintain a charge. In GG the character Eddie plays in a very unique way. He is really two characters, Zato (the man) and Eddie (the shadow). When pressing a button down it is an input for Zato, when releasing a button it in an input for Eddie. So your combos require precise presses and releases. When paring this with the fast, aggressive pace of GG, it becomes incredibly hard.
That sounds incredibly fun (and let's be honest, who gives a shit what's harder, better, more balanced. We play what we find more fun and for me that's 3s).
Hey, sorry to fuel a mostly pointless discussion, but 3S is too dear to me for me to ignore this. >_<
I understand that it's not the entirety of his argument (or even necessarily a key point), but I have a problem with hotbreakfast's use of the word "zoning". It seems like he's using the word like many people do, to mean "long range obstacle-course" style gameplay (like tiger shots ad nauseum from Sagat in ST or Dhalsim in any game). However, Maj in this article lays out a description of zoning that I feel is much more comprehensive and useful, as it generalizes to non-fireball characters (and thus non-fireball games).
The gist of the article is that "zoning" is the practice of trying to maintain a positional advantage over your opponent. For example, Sagat is totally OK with being on the opposite side of the screen throwing tiger shots, because other characters have few or zero options that allow them to threaten him, while he can chip/hit them with his projectiles (this is the zoning hotbreakfast is talking about). Zangief prefers to be close to his opponent, because then he can threaten his command grabs, whereas if he is more than 1/3 of the screen away, his options to threaten his opponent become drastically reduced. Maj describes players trying to capitalize on either of these types of advantages as "zoning", because they revolve around the ideas that matchups put one or the other character at an advantage based on their positioning (in zones).
In this manner, 3S very much has zoning, though the long range obstacle course type of zoning is much, much weaker (to the point of being absent from high level play). I would imagine from hotbreakfast's description of every character in Vampire Saviour being rushdown, that the case is likely similar there. In both games, I can hardly imagine that zoning does not exist (I think only Ivan Ooze ignores zoning ;D). In 3S, Chun-Li is gains an advantage when she is slightly outside her cr.MK range, because she can step in at a moment's notice and land ENORMOUS damage and possibly put her opponent in a corner-wakeup situation off a ridiculously easy cancel (or is it a link...? I think it's a cancel...). Similarly, she also has an advantage at the farthest extent of her kara-throw range, because she may threaten her opponent with throws, while her opponent cannot (unless they're Q I think). In Yun vs Chun, Yun's shorter range normals mean that it's dangerous for him to be at the distance where he cannot punish blocks or parries with his target combo or hit confirm into Genei-Jin and where Chun-Li can attempt to poke him with his s.HP or other hilaribroke normals, so he would ideally want to be closer, to be able to punish, or farther (at least temporarily) to avoid Chun having such a significant advantage.
I agree that parrying removes fullscreen zoning (Necro and Remy are ass compared to Dhalsim and Guile in almost every single game they've been in), but I don't agree that zoning is not present in 3S by Maj's more comprehensive definition.
Also, parrying does not make everything unsafe in practice. People block more than they parry in every SBO match I've seen, and it's silly to think that they simply aren't good enough at the game. Theoretically, everything is unsafe of course. However, because of the speed of the game and the variation in the parrying timing of moves, it's not practical to try to parry everything. Saying that because parrying EVERYTHING is possible that it weakens the game is like saying that MvC2 is unplayable because if you ever get blocked against a player having Cable not on point with 2+ meters, he can alpha counter using Cable's scimitar and combo into AHVB (OK fine I'm exaggerating a little). I agree that random parrying is kind of annoying, but it's just a lower risk/lower reward version of punishing things with psychic DPs or random supers.
What does parrying add to the game? Nothing universally liked, clearly, but it makes you think about every button you press outside of a combo, which is something that at least some people like. Obviously 3S is not as good at being ST as ST is, but unlike a lot of games that are not as good at being ST as ST is, it does bring something different to the table that can be enjoyable.
And regarding extreme execution requirements: a couple of characters in 3S actually have touch of death combos, but they are never seen because the level execution required is much too high for them to be practical in real play. That said, I don't think it's meaningful to try to compare the upper extremes of execution requirements between Capcom fighting games. All I need to know is that Justin Wong is the king of MvC2 and he drops combos in SF4 and 3S as well.
PS: To whoever hasn't noticed before, Daigo predicted the unconfirmed super in the full parry match. If you don't believe me, watch the video and see him tapping forward right before it happens.
PPS: To whoever said it, saying Gootecks is like players on KTFlash isn't actually that accurate, because the one time his team advanced past the first round in SBO, he got at least one (or maybe 2 or 3, I can't remember) of the victories. This does ignore the qualification process though, in which I don't know whether or not Pyrolee did all the work.
I would say MvC2 generally requires heavier execution. Urien is pretty tough though.
EDIT: I just read the long post Pretty good, just some comments.
Justin was the MvC2 god, but he wasn't near the one with best technical execution, its just that he just understood the game so well which makes up for it totally
Deadhaji once PM'd me when we talked about the Daigo parry before in the old Fighting game thread. He was baiting it, Justin didn't even have super at that time so he threw a couple o' fireballs to give him the meter to do the super.
I also think Gootecks probably got one if he won, but wasn't the time they advanced when the opposing team only had 2 members (one was sick)?
Justin didn't get baited. He obviously knew of the risk involved in supering, he just figured there'd be no way Daigo would be able to do the full parry live on stage. Daigo knew justin knew this, and figured well, my only way out is to try to parry, and it is in that situation.
I'm sure justin did know the risk, but Daigo forced him to take that risk, (By giving him enough meter to do the super by throwing random fireballs that accomplish nothing really but parry-meter bait)
Because really, Justin HAD another way out: sit back and let daigo come to him, but as we all know, justin is always Mindfuck'd vs daigo.
I doubt he doesn't know what Daigo is capable of at that point in time Just my two cents.
On July 13 2011 11:49 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
You can't counter that, because you have no solid argument. It's all the same for you "3S loonies" ain't it?
On July 13 2011 11:49 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
Bottom line is that capcom has never made a balanced game.
NEVER.
Actually Darkstalkers 3 (aka Vampire Savior), is incredibly balanced. Bottom tiers have consistently been able to place high in tournaments.
I think Lilith (Kaji) and Jedah (Shimatsuya, Ouchi) are arguably not low tier, but those characters (well, players) place high in a lot of tournaments.
Anyway, it's not much the characters that make it balanced but the system and speed of the game. I think this is the argument that some people are applying to 3s, but it's much more so here. There are still many matchups that are 6.5-3.5 or worse, but it feels tolerable since everybody can kill everybody else so easily once they get the momentum.
On July 13 2011 14:24 myrmidon2537 wrote: I would say MvC2 generally requires heavier execution. Urien is pretty tough though.
EDIT: I just read the long post Pretty good, just some comments.
Justin was the MvC2 god, but he wasn't near the one with best technical execution, its just that he just understood the game so well which makes up for it totally
Deadhaji once PM'd me when we talked about the Daigo parry before in the old Fighting game thread. He was baiting it, Justin didn't even have super at that time so he threw a couple o' fireballs to give him the meter to do the super.
I also think Gootecks probably got one if he won, but wasn't the time they advanced when the opposing team only had 2 members (one was sick)?
He didn't just bait the super, he was also just playing with Justin and his very turtle style. Justin could have done what he always did and hold down back and just wait it out, attack him with ANY move later on to chip, there really was no reason to throw out the super except that he knew Justin wanted to show people he wasn't just about turtling.
On July 13 2011 15:34 Adeny wrote: Justin didn't get baited. He obviously knew of the risk involved in supering, he just figured there'd be no way Daigo would be able to do the full parry live on stage. Daigo knew justin knew this, and figured well, my only way out is to try to parry, and it is in that situation.
You're wrong. Lol. Ask Justin or any of his friends or watch any interview or ANYTHING from that time, Daigo baited it.
Yep, Zlasher hit it on the head. Daigo was just toying with justin the whole time. I recall the first two rounds he was so intent on landing c.mk shoryuu all day as his whole offense (which is why daigo lost round 2)
You guys are crazy. You can clearly see them come to a mutual agreement by how they stall before the super. Justin is clearly saying "so this is how it's going to be? You're going to try the parry?" There's like a 5 second stall, if Justin wasn't positive Daigo was going to miss the parry he wouldn't have supered.
I'm sorry, but I really don't think that's what happened because that's stupid (For lack of a better term.)
They come to a "Mutual agreement?" Really? Daigo was buffering forwards and moving back when he got too close, he was waiting for it. Justin decided on risking it (a poor one at that) because he already let his nerves get to him after daigo pressured him so hard in the corner.
That coupled with Daigo being known to them as GDLK already caused him to make a poor decision. The bait was forcing justin into making that risk by throwing the last fireball to give Justin exactly one bar. (Justin ended up with a little over one bar because he traded with daigo's poke, which probably tilt him even more because it left daigo with practically 0 health and sure to die from chip)
Given that Daigo RTSD'd Justin so bad, he could also just have gone that route as his only other option (Risky), he decided that its better to hope Justin gets greedy and comes to him first.
The way you say it such that "Justin figured there's no way he could do a full parry on the live stage" seems to put it such that he was underestimating Daigo and decided to roll the dice because its in his favor, when in fact, it's more on the lines of "Oh shit what do I do I gotta kill him now before he rushes me to death again SUPER!"
Have you even watched the whole set? (outside the parry clip)
They come to a "Mutual agreement?" Really? Daigo was buffering forwards and moving back when he got too close, he was waiting for it.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Daigo signaled that he intended to parry the super, he buffered the first parry like 6+ times, justin obviously noticed but supered anyways, thus "mutual agreement". So yes it's rolling the dice, and 9 times out of 10 you're opponent isn't going to both hit the first parry and then know the parry sequence so well that he's able to do it on stage every time. Justins odds are fairly good, and probably better than if he had to make more decisions i.e. try to play normally, because even if he's ahead in life, he's still 1 combo away from death.
Yes I've seen the set, don't know how it's relevant though.
Daigo Signaling that he intended to parry obviously means he knows he can parry it. Otherwise, why make such a poor decision to parry if he knows he can't when he does fine rushing justin down.
The only thing "hard" about that parry is that its on stage (The pressure) and parrying the first kick, the rest is a set-rhythm that isn't too hard at all to know.
Relevance of the set is you can see how Daigo systematically picks apart Justin affecting his state of mind.
Did justin roll the dice? Yes. Was he BAITED to roll it? Definitely because Justin.Didn't.Need.To. For all you know, what could be going on justin's head is that "is he stuttering before going in? So to sum up, Justin did roll the dice and his decision to do so was affected by Daigo baiting him to do it and putting himself in a position for justin to consider it (+ the pressure). There is no "Mutual agreement" such that "lol ok you wanna see if you can do this? k fine let the best man win."
This incident has been documented and talked about a bajillion times, and this is the first time anyone has ever talked about mutual agreements about this.
EDIT: Ugh, better stop derailing this thread yet again with another argument. =\ Gonna concentrate on GSL now
On July 13 2011 15:34 Adeny wrote: Justin didn't get baited. He obviously knew of the risk involved in supering, he just figured there'd be no way Daigo would be able to do the full parry live on stage. Daigo knew justin knew this, and figured well, my only way out is to try to parry, and it is in that situation.
EPT
Pretty good, just some comments.
