So many of you are probably unaware that this game has/had a huge following as one of the best sf games and it was constantly being played via roms on GGPO (a free program for pc). Ever since about December 2010 the server has been DDoS attacked by some korean griefers with floodbots. And not only that, but the owner/creator of GGPO, Ponder, has stated that he plans to remove any old games that capcom decides to rerelease anyways. It's a blessing and a curse at the same time:
I do not own an Xbox but I may just have to acquire one now for this. we we we so excited
Afaik the gameplay is going to stay exactly the same. (no rebalancing etc) Kinda sad about that, I like to use sean and he could definitely use some tweaks. and chun/ken could use some nerfs.
I've never been more excited for a game than this, and especially so after I heard it was GGPO netcode. Super glad they didn't mess with balance too. Sure Yun/Chun are crazy, but people still beat them with odd picks like Q (LET'S GO KURODA!).
It's gonna be hard to play with any kind of lag tho. How could you make Urien's unblockable setups work? And lotta chars in that game depends on good use of parries.
On June 08 2011 08:03 O-ops wrote: Gootecks gonna be all over that assssssssss
It's gonna be hard to play with any kind of lag tho. How could you make Urien's unblockable setups work? And lotta chars in that game depends on good use of parries.
Like, how could yo do THAT with lag?
GGPO's operates different than most netcode. Input lag is mostly nonexistent.
I was watching a live stream from E3 a while ago. There was a screen in the background with this game playing and pictures of a PS2 and PS3 besides it, and I was like FUCK YEAH! Played it on my PS2 years ago. Jesus god damn it was so freaking good! Finally it's coming for PSN!
On June 08 2011 08:03 O-ops wrote: Gootecks gonna be all over that assssssssss
It's gonna be hard to play with any kind of lag tho. How could you make Urien's unblockable setups work? And lotta chars in that game depends on good use of parries.
Like, how could yo do THAT with lag?
GGPO's operates different than most netcode. Input lag is mostly nonexistent.
except 3s ggpo was garbage (in comparison to other ggpo games at least)
but ggpo was the only online we had for 3s (unless u count regular xbox 3s lol) so can't really complain about that
On June 08 2011 08:03 O-ops wrote: Gootecks gonna be all over that assssssssss
It's gonna be hard to play with any kind of lag tho. How could you make Urien's unblockable setups work? And lotta chars in that game depends on good use of parries.
Like, how could yo do THAT with lag?
GGPO's operates different than most netcode. Input lag is mostly nonexistent.
except 3s ggpo was garbage (in comparison to other ggpo games at least)
but ggpo was the only online we had for 3s (unless u count regular xbox 3s lol) so can't really complain about that
tbh I think ggpo is as good as it gets. random as ggpo can be, input delay 3s is WAY worse. You never played kaillera 3s =P
I am hypehypehype for this to come out. Having an actual fighting game player as the lead is really reassuring.
lol @ the video where gootecks says he was an sbo qualifier for 3s. It's not technically untrue, but it's like hearing one of KTFlash's random other players talking about being a proleague champion. One guy (Flash in bw, pyrolee in 3s) wins everything, other guys one the team become "champions" lol
I haven't in a while, but I am willing to play on GGPO. While it is not as lag free as Super Turbo on GGPO, it is still way better than Kaillera. I am rusty as hell is I will pick my terribad characters if I happen to see you.
GGPO uses peer to peer tech, so that's how it kind of avoids input lag. It takes the info from both player's sides, and the puts them together. So you get really weird situations where like, some guy will throw a fireball, and you will parry it, so HIS side thinks that he won (because it thinks the fireball hit), but your side realizes that you parried it, so the end result is a Big ass "K.O." lettering in the middle of the screen and your health emptied out graphically, but the match is still going on.
At least, that's my theory. But I have had that happen to me numerous times. Regarldess it's a rare occurance and more funny than being much of an actual problem.
I'm not on much, but my name on GGPO is Black0ut, so feel free to play me if I'm on.
Definitely one of the most awaited releases for long time fighting game fans, Street Fighter III: Third Strike Online will feature many improvements such as graphical filters, GGPO netcode, YouTube integration, and a challenge mode that impress players with trails in both parrying skills and combos. While not busy wrecking people in tournaments as Goryus, Producer Derek Neal is hard at work on Third Strike Online and he took some free time to answer a couple of Quick Questions for us.
Denkiphile: Considering the amount of fighters that don’t get approved for a digital release, what led to the final decision to approve Third Strike Online?
The producer of 3s online runs down the features in the game. This looks pretty sick.
wow really great. Especially diggin the trials and stuff. Evo moment #37 in there. I hope they have some other parry trials like Oro's GIant ball and Ibuki's air knives.
GGPO is still hosting SFIII, I installed it recently and it works great. I prefer it over SF4 so i was really happy when I got it working especially after I got hyped up after seeing some SF3 online videos. It will probably be taken down after Online comes out, but it should be enough to hold us over.
There are quite a few people on it regularly and they are all way better than me (i played years ago and quite casually). If anyone needs help setting it up or wants to play some games i welcome you to PM me.
afaik, ggpo avoids input lag by using rollbacks, aka allowing both clients to play in realtime and using timestamps to go "back in time" to fix discrepancies
again afaik (i might be wrong), ive heard that the current 3s ggpo does not implement this functionality properly, because the creator does not have access to 3s source code, so the rollbacks were done using save states in the emulator (causing glitches). 3s online should implement ggpo correctly in the source code itself, and should work much better if they do it right
SF3 is probably the worst SF ever because it ruins all the fundamentals of SF and a 2d fighting game, along with thr degenerate gameplay at the high level play (hit confirm into super)... With that said, I had a blast playing this back in the day and it took a lot of skills. I look forward to the new version.
On July 12 2011 17:17 Hokay wrote: SF3 is probably the worst SF ever because it ruins all the fundamentals of SF and a 2d fighting game, along with thr degenerate gameplay at the high level play (hit confirm into super)... With that said, I had a blast playing this back in the day and it took a lot of skills. I look forward to the new version.
a game where no move is safe is an amazing game ^^
On July 12 2011 17:17 Hokay wrote: SF3 is probably the worst SF ever because it ruins all the fundamentals of SF and a 2d fighting game, along with thr degenerate gameplay at the high level play (hit confirm into super)... With that said, I had a blast playing this back in the day and it took a lot of skills. I look forward to the new version.
a game where no move is safe is an amazing game ^^
hehe I agree to some extent. It's definitely a unique fighting game experience and the mind games can be crazy; which is why I hold 3s somewhere in inside my heart :D
I may get destroyed a lot in this game (I'm often playing on GGPO/Supercade) compared to SF4 but my main (Makoto) is so much more fun than its SSF4 counterpart, looking forward to the release (by the way I've never seen a trailer that hype, it's going to be awesome!)
I'll main Urien if they give him an alternate costume, but that thong, I just do not want to see that everytime i start up the game.
also the best part about 3rd strike is just how HYPE it can get sf4 the hype is not so much, having a balanced cast is what makes it good, you get variety (although thats currently being threatened) anyways this is a 3rd strike thread and the best thing/worst thing is the parry system which if youre good enough you will never take damage all game. That alone allows skillful play and setups that outweigh character imbalance, of course players just having flat out better normals/supers/cancels etc will cause you to think otherwise
On July 12 2011 18:21 Zlasher wrote: Are you saying the cast on 3rd strike is more balanced than SF4? Lol.
Even AE, which clearly has a best character, wouldn't be more balanced, consdiering the rest of the ~40 characters are very close.
3rd strike is Yun Chun and Ken. Urien has his place somewhat but everyone else blows.
no the cast is far from balanced, but the parry system allows so much room for "spectator magic" which is what all games need to be successful. 3rd strike isn't about characters as so much as it is about parrying, with parrying the game is broken unbroken and then shattered its unpossible to describe its potential.
3rd strike is Yun Chun and Ken. Urien has his place somewhat but everyone else blows.
Not true makoto is also up there with the high tiers. Also there has been a necro, hugo, Q, Gouki at SBO Finals an event thats like the starleague of fighting games.
Also dudley is a very good character.
I cant wait for this game even if i suck, hit confirms into supers are just too hard for me.
On July 12 2011 18:21 Zlasher wrote: 3rd strike is Yun Chun and Ken. Urien has his place somewhat but everyone else blows.
What? 3s has NEVER been just about Yun/Chun/Ken... maybe 7 years ago in the US scene it was only those 3 characters. Dudley, Makoto, Akuma, Yang, and Ryu are all up there in terms of tournament viability.
I think what Monokeros was getting at was the comeback potential in 3s is much higher than in SF4 (other than maybe vanilla SF4 Sagat l0l) which makes it seem like anyone can win in any circumstance. In 3s there are so many characters who can just blow shit up with one opening (Makoto and Urien especially), and there's always the parry factor. In SF4 there are match-ups where you just can't do shit (eg: melee against a Honda with large life advantage and full meter, wtf are you gonna do?).
3s is a really well balanced game. the only truly gimped character is sean, and even that character has tools to win. so many people say all this BS about how easy chun/ken/etc. are but honestly you all don't realize how hard it is to play those characters at a level that makes them good. you are better off playing ryu, alex, akuma, or some other character that has strong basic combos and sane execution requirements
the hitconfirms, setups and options selects that people do in 3s are no joke. they take serious practice to get consistent in matches (unlike ssf4 where you can see a combo and probably learn it in 5 minutes). if you take out the high level stuff, then chun/ken/yun/etc. are mid tier at best (maybe even low tier)
On July 12 2011 18:21 Zlasher wrote: Are you saying the cast on 3rd strike is more balanced than SF4? Lol.
Even AE, which clearly has a best character, wouldn't be more balanced, consdiering the rest of the ~40 characters are very close.
3rd strike is Yun Chun and Ken. Urien has his place somewhat but everyone else blows.
Pretty sure Yang, Makoto, and dudley are "better" than urien. The engine for 3s is completely different from sf4 because of the parry system. It allows "low tier" characters to dominate better characters.
actually, after re-reading what you just said, I'm pretty sure you havent played much 3s, huh?
On July 12 2011 21:56 Wangsta wrote: 3s is a really well balanced game. the only truly gimped character is sean, and even that character has tools to win. so many people say all this BS about how easy chun/ken/etc. are but honestly you all don't realize how hard it is to play those characters at a level that makes them good. you are better off playing ryu, alex, akuma, or some other character that has strong basic combos and sane execution requirements
the hitconfirms, setups and options selects that people do in 3s are no joke. they take serious practice to get consistent in matches (unlike ssf4 where you can see a combo and probably learn it in 5 minutes). if you take out the high level stuff, then chun/ken/yun/etc. are mid tier at best (maybe even low tier)
On July 12 2011 18:21 Zlasher wrote: Are you saying the cast on 3rd strike is more balanced than SF4? Lol.
Even AE, which clearly has a best character, wouldn't be more balanced, consdiering the rest of the ~40 characters are very close.
3rd strike is Yun Chun and Ken. Urien has his place somewhat but everyone else blows.
Pretty sure Yang, Makoto, and dudley are "better" than urien. The engine for 3s is completely different from sf4 because of the parry system. It allows "low tier" characters to dominate better characters.
actually, after re-reading what you just said, I'm pretty sure you havent played much 3s, huh?
Lol... This is why the OGs don't take you guys seriously...
I'm going to have to agree that while Yun/Chun/Ken dominate, 3s is way more balanced than AE. for the reasons already explained.
And while Urien is hella fun to use, I'd pick Makoto over Urien any day. If I recall correctly, teams with Makoto in SBO tend to be the ones people watch out for since a few smart guesses for her gives her the win. (Although she's pretty momentum based)
On July 12 2011 23:19 myrmidon2537 wrote: I'm going to have to agree that while Yun/Chun/Ken dominate, 3s is way more balanced than AE. for the reasons already explained.
And while Urien is hella fun to use, I'd pick Makoto over Urien any day. If I recall correctly, teams with Makoto in SBO tend to be the ones people watch out for since a few smart guesses for her gives her the win. (Although she's pretty momentum based)
No, 3S isn't more balanced than AE. Parries don't help with the balance at all. If anything parries just remove long range zoning and promote a dumb guessing game. An 8:2 matchup in 3S is no different than an 8:2 matchup in any other game. I don't see any mvc2 or cvs2 players making ridiculous claims about their games being balanced...
On July 12 2011 18:21 Zlasher wrote: Are you saying the cast on 3rd strike is more balanced than SF4? Lol.
Even AE, which clearly has a best character, wouldn't be more balanced, consdiering the rest of the ~40 characters are very close.
3rd strike is Yun Chun and Ken. Urien has his place somewhat but everyone else blows.
what. if by "place" you mean RX then sure, but RX transcends humanity nobody will ever rate urien over makoto. i even like denjin ryu/akuma/yang/dudley over urien too
Claiming "balanced" is different than "more balanced". Yes its true parries remove long range zoning, but you can't really talk about "promoting a dumb guessing game" with parries and then completely over look SFIV's option-selects.
The presence of dominating characters does not mean a game is poorly balanced. Do I think AE is decently balanced? Yes. I think the same for 3s. Its just that I think 3s is more balanced than AE. I don't like how parries removes long-range zoning though, hell, I could go one further since parries makes the traditional anti-air quite risky. but to say it doesn't help balance "at all" is an opinion at best.
On July 12 2011 23:19 myrmidon2537 wrote: I'm going to have to agree that while Yun/Chun/Ken dominate, 3s is way more balanced than AE. for the reasons already explained.
And while Urien is hella fun to use, I'd pick Makoto over Urien any day. If I recall correctly, teams with Makoto in SBO tend to be the ones people watch out for since a few smart guesses for her gives her the win. (Although she's pretty momentum based)
No, 3S isn't more balanced than AE. Parries don't help with the balance at all. If anything parries just remove long range zoning and promote a dumb guessing game. An 8:2 matchup in 3S is no different than an 8:2 matchup in any other game. I don't see any mvc2 or cvs2 players making ridiculous claims about their games being balanced...
I think an 8:2 matchup in 3s or ST is different from an 8:2 matchup in SSF4. For example, Oro vs Chun is 8:2, but if Oro lands 1 hit the round is over (the problem is that he'll never land that 1 hit lol). There's no 8:2 matchup like that in SSF4.
Does it mean 3s is more balanced than SSF4? Of course not (an 8:2 matchup in the end is still 8:2), but it does make "impossible" matchups seem less impossible since you can win off of one good read while in the case of SSF4 it might require 6-7 "good" reads to take a round in a lopsided match.
On July 12 2011 21:56 Wangsta wrote: 3s is a really well balanced game. the only truly gimped character is sean, and even that character has tools to win. so many people say all this BS about how easy chun/ken/etc. are but honestly you all don't realize how hard it is to play those characters at a level that makes them good. you are better off playing ryu, alex, akuma, or some other character that has strong basic combos and sane execution requirements
the hitconfirms, setups and options selects that people do in 3s are no joke. they take serious practice to get consistent in matches (unlike ssf4 where you can see a combo and probably learn it in 5 minutes). if you take out the high level stuff, then chun/ken/yun/etc. are mid tier at best (maybe even low tier)
On July 12 2011 18:21 Zlasher wrote: Are you saying the cast on 3rd strike is more balanced than SF4? Lol.
Even AE, which clearly has a best character, wouldn't be more balanced, consdiering the rest of the ~40 characters are very close.
3rd strike is Yun Chun and Ken. Urien has his place somewhat but everyone else blows.
Pretty sure Yang, Makoto, and dudley are "better" than urien. The engine for 3s is completely different from sf4 because of the parry system. It allows "low tier" characters to dominate better characters.
actually, after re-reading what you just said, I'm pretty sure you havent played much 3s, huh?
Lol... This is why the OGs don't take you guys seriously...
you have no idea what you are talking about. have you ever played 3s against good competition? do you even know why those characters are top tier? you really don't see many chuns/yun/etc on GGPO or any good arcade, and theres a reason
if you look at a god tier like chun, she has one of the best antiairs in the game with back fierce -> legs (if parried). but you wont be able to do it because its not easy. she also has a strong mixup game by switching between stuff like meaty high or low SA2 hitconfirms, and stuff like her SGGK option select, which is parry -> karathrow -> hitconfirm SA2 off cl.hk (if you parry). again, you won't be able to do them so it won't matter. she also has zoning tools like dash -> legs, which you won't be consistent with so it's too risky for you to use.
On July 12 2011 21:56 Wangsta wrote: 3s is a really well balanced game. the only truly gimped character is sean, and even that character has tools to win. so many people say all this BS about how easy chun/ken/etc. are but honestly you all don't realize how hard it is to play those characters at a level that makes them good. you are better off playing ryu, alex, akuma, or some other character that has strong basic combos and sane execution requirements
the hitconfirms, setups and options selects that people do in 3s are no joke. they take serious practice to get consistent in matches (unlike ssf4 where you can see a combo and probably learn it in 5 minutes). if you take out the high level stuff, then chun/ken/yun/etc. are mid tier at best (maybe even low tier)
On July 12 2011 22:15 jongzor wrote:
On July 12 2011 18:21 Zlasher wrote: Are you saying the cast on 3rd strike is more balanced than SF4? Lol.
Even AE, which clearly has a best character, wouldn't be more balanced, consdiering the rest of the ~40 characters are very close.
3rd strike is Yun Chun and Ken. Urien has his place somewhat but everyone else blows.
Pretty sure Yang, Makoto, and dudley are "better" than urien. The engine for 3s is completely different from sf4 because of the parry system. It allows "low tier" characters to dominate better characters.
actually, after re-reading what you just said, I'm pretty sure you havent played much 3s, huh?
Lol... This is why the OGs don't take you guys seriously...
you have no idea what you are talking about. have you ever played 3s against good competition? do you even know why those characters are top tier? you really don't see many chuns/yun/etc on GGPO or any good arcade, and theres a reason
if you look at a god tier like chun, she has one of the best antiairs in the game with back fierce -> legs (if parried). but you wont be able to do it because its not easy. she also has a strong mixup game by switching between stuff like meaty high or low SA2 hitconfirms, and stuff like her SGGK option select, which is parry -> karathrow -> hitconfirm SA2 off cl.hk (if you parry). again, you won't be able to do them so it won't matter. she also has zoning tools like dash -> legs, which you won't be consistent with so it's too risky for you to use.
Yeah, because cr. MK -> super is so fucking hard. You learn a basic genei jin combo with yun that deals at least 40% in just a few days of practice. 3S is nothing more than dumb hit confirm game. To think that there is any long range zoning or advanced mind games is nonsense. I used to love parries, but after reading some Viscant's posts, I can see why the OGs hated 3S so much. On a final note: Guessing =/= mind games
On July 13 2011 02:18 myrmidon2537 wrote: Claiming "balanced" is different than "more balanced". Yes its true parries remove long range zoning, but you can't really talk about "promoting a dumb guessing game" with parries and then completely over look SFIV's option-selects.
The presence of dominating characters does not mean a game is poorly balanced. Do I think AE is decently balanced? Yes. I think the same for 3s. Its just that I think 3s is more balanced than AE. I don't like how parries removes long-range zoning though, hell, I could go one further since parries makes the traditional anti-air quite risky. but to say it doesn't help balance "at all" is an opinion at best.
So what if there are option selects? Does any mechanic SF4 (not that I like SF4) create a stupid and universal high/low mixup game that parries promote? Parries remove character archtypes. I don't hate 3S players, I only hate the loonies who think 3S is even remotely balanced because of parries. An 8:2 matchup in 3S is just as difficult as an 8:2 matchup in ST, the only difference is the higher random factor in the former.
Hotbreakfast, I too go in threads about a game I don't like just to shit on it.
On the balance thing though, 3s is odd. The better players can overcome bad matchups against worse players a lot more easily than in other games. Low tier teams have even been blowing it up at SBO forever.
On July 13 2011 08:08 Trumpet wrote: Hotbreakfast, I too go in threads about a game I don't like just to shit on it.
On the balance thing though, 3s is odd. The better players can overcome bad matchups against worse players a lot more easily than in other games. Low tier teams have even been blowing it up at SBO forever.
I'm fine with people liking 3S, but I find laughable that people spread misinformation about their game because they think it's so godlike. That's great, but have they actually won an SBO? How many SBOs did Kuroda win with Q? Oh yeah, I don't remember them either! The only game I can think of, that bottom tier characters can dominate in is Vampire Savior (Darkstalkers 3). Vampire Savior's amazing balance comes at the cost of every character being some form of rushdown.
lol wow, even TL isn't exempt from random 3s hatred.
Newsflash: Viscant fucking sucks at 3s and doesn't know what hes talking about. Citing Viscant in a 3s argument is the Street Fighter equivalent of Godwin's Law. It pretty much immediately disqualifies your opinion.
Is 3s perfectly balanced? No. Is it a fun game? Yes.
On July 13 2011 08:23 FACENC wrote: lol wow, even TL isn't exempt from random 3s hatred.
Newsflash: Viscant fucking sucks at 3s and doesn't know what hes talking about. Citing Viscant in a 3s argument is the Street Fighter equivalent of Godwin's Law. It pretty much immediately disqualifies your opinion.
Is 3s perfectly balanced? No. Is it a fun game? Yes.
3S4LIFE!!
I have yet to see anybody discredit Viscant's claims on parries. People just roll the blinders over their eyes, cover their ears, and scream "NOOO!!". What kind of depth and mind games do parries add towards the game? Especially since I'm sooo damn ignorant. I love rushdown oriented games like Jojo's and Vampire Savior, but to say they aren't dumbed down at a high level is just being blind, deaf, and dumb.
Yo, a team of Urien, Yang, and Necro got 2nd at SBO. They didn't win, but 2nd for a team with none of the top seems pretty solid in the biggest tournament of the world. And Kuroda has won with Akuma.
One random guy starts saying he thinks 3s is incredibly well balanced in this thread. You take that chance to make personal attacks and try to start a flame war. Just stop, please =/
Viscant's whole article was about how the fireball is what made SF games good via long range zoning. If it's really that simple, then every ST matchup between non fireball characters is just as bad.
Viscant is an incredibly smart player, but don't take some SRK posts he made years ago and try to launch some crusade against 3s off of it. Viscant also used to say that Dreamcast Marvel 2 was a waste of time and that if it wasn't on arcade evo shouldn't even have it.
Edit: and the parry forces you to react to the other player 100% of the time. This is why people like it. You can't just do the same basic blockstrings and mixups repeatedly because they get shut down once figured out.
On July 13 2011 08:23 FACENC wrote: lol wow, even TL isn't exempt from random 3s hatred.
Newsflash: Viscant fucking sucks at 3s and doesn't know what hes talking about. Citing Viscant in a 3s argument is the Street Fighter equivalent of Godwin's Law. It pretty much immediately disqualifies your opinion.
Is 3s perfectly balanced? No. Is it a fun game? Yes.
3S4LIFE!!
I have yet to see anybody discredit Viscant's claims on parries. People just roll the blinders over their eyes, cover their ears, and scream "NOOO!!". What kind of depth and mind games do parries add towards the game? Especially since I'm sooo damn ignorant.
Acting as if Viscant knows about high-level 3s gameplay is like saying John Madden really understands basketball. 3s plays almost NOTHING like a traditional Street Fighter game. It is more comparable to a 2d Tekken or Virtual Fighter title than an SF game. Viscant played 3s at a fairly low level 9+ years ago and decided he didn't like the game mechanic.
Do parries reduce the number of tradition 2d character archetypes? Absolutely. But the obviously introduce others in their stead. Zoning absolutely exists in 3s, ask any Gouki player. Fireballs still have great utility as mid-range poking tools (especially EX-hadou).
On July 13 2011 08:33 Trumpet wrote: Yo, a team of Urien, Yang, and Necro got 2nd at SBO. They didn't win, but 2nd for a team with none of the top seems pretty solid in the biggest tournament of the world. And Kuroda has won with Akuma.
One random guy starts saying he thinks 3s is incredibly well balanced in this thread. You take that chance to make personal attacks and try to start a flame war. Just stop, please =/
Viscant's whole article was about how the fireball is what made SF games good via long range zoning. If it's really that simple, then every ST matchup between non fireball characters is just as bad.
Viscant is an incredibly smart player, but don't take some SRK posts he made years ago and try to launch some crusade against 3s off of it. Viscant also used to say that Dreamcast Marvel 2 was a waste of time and that if it wasn't on arcade evo shouldn't even have it.
Edit: and the parry forces you to react to the other player 100% of the time. This is why people like it. You can't just do the same basic blockstrings and mixups repeatedly because they get shut down once figured out. It prevents things like Sagat vs Zangeif from happening, where no matter how good a geif player is, a mediocre sagat will almost always win.
I'm not launching a crusade, but some of the loonies in your community need the truth handed to them. Who said ST was balanced? I don't claim the games I play are godly and perfect. This the problem with parries, because it puts the characters with the best pokes and mixups at the top. It forces every character in the game to play the same way, so why play anybody else besides chun, yun, or ken? If you think about, anybody below them is just a gimmick. Oh and I can totally show remote instances of bottom tiers winning their worst matchups.
On July 13 2011 08:23 FACENC wrote: lol wow, even TL isn't exempt from random 3s hatred.
Newsflash: Viscant fucking sucks at 3s and doesn't know what hes talking about. Citing Viscant in a 3s argument is the Street Fighter equivalent of Godwin's Law. It pretty much immediately disqualifies your opinion.
Is 3s perfectly balanced? No. Is it a fun game? Yes.
3S4LIFE!!
I have yet to see anybody discredit Viscant's claims on parries. People just roll the blinders over their eyes, cover their ears, and scream "NOOO!!". What kind of depth and mind games do parries add towards the game? Especially since I'm sooo damn ignorant.
Acting as if Viscant knows about high-level 3s gameplay is like saying John Madden really understands basketball. 3s plays almost NOTHING like a traditional Street Fighter game. It is more comparable to a 2d Tekken or Virtual Fighter title than an SF game. Viscant played 3s at a fairly low level 9+ years ago and decided he didn't like the game mechanic.
Do parries reduce the number of tradition 2d character archetypes? Absolutely. But the obviously introduce others in their stead. Zoning absolutely exists in 3s, ask any Gouki player. Fireballs still have great utility as mid-range poking tools (especially EX-hadou).
Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match.
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
oh man that kuroda vs ino video is pretty sick. man the players have gotten so good. who the heck red parries the last hit of a super to do their own? is that common now? i remember practicing red parries on yun's target combo -> shoulder and i could never get it consistently...
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmE2lkYgpcw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwpps4CvwY
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmE2lkYgpcw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwpps4CvwY
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning
On July 13 2011 08:47 Wangsta wrote: @hotbreakfast
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
I never said 2MK -> SA2 is everything that makes her stupid, but it's one of the reasons. The only problem is you claim that your Chun requires so much execution to play well, which is absolutely laughable. Chun is a character with the best footsies and her normals are incredibly difficult to punish, all while having dumb grab range due to her kara throw. I already said earlier that I play 3S, and I've watched so much of it that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Sorry, but 3S isn't balanced because an 8:2 matchup is still an 8:2 matchup. I'll let this guy from SRK say it for me:
Dude, you can't compare anything to Super Turbo. It's just the best game out there
Now back on topic Great game. It has great music, great gameplay, and for me, stilish art. Too bad 80% of the players will get Yun/Chun/Ken. I don't know if I'll get it.
My favorite 3S players are the Urien ones. Well played Uriens are the real deal and will rape anyone in their way. I can watch kuroda's and RX's matches all day long.
On July 13 2011 11:06 hotbreakfest wrote: Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
So the fact that Guile throws horizontal projectiles and reacts to his opponent's reaction makes it zoning? Or is it that he throws more projectiles than an Akuma player in 3s would? I never said Akuma was a zoning-based character. I said he was an example that zoning absolutely exists in 3s. Is it as powerful as it is in ST or SFIV? No.
If you hate 3s, fine. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to not like it. I can even understand not liking parry, I really can. Just don't come into a 3s thread and spout off Viscant quotes when you don't play and/or understand the game at a high level. Go back to the SSF4 thread and have all the fun you want.
On July 13 2011 11:06 hotbreakfest wrote: Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
So the fact that Guile throws horizontal projectiles and reacts to his opponent's reaction makes it zoning? Or is it that he throws more projectiles than an Akuma player in 3s would? I never said Akuma was a zoning-based character. I said he was an example that zoning absolutely exists in 3s. Is it as powerful as it is in ST or SFIV? No.
If you hate 3s, fine. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to not like it. I can even understand not liking parry, I really can. Just don't come into a 3s thread and spout off Viscant quotes when you don't play and/or understand the game at a high level. Go back to the SSF4 thread and have all the fun you want.
Yes, that is zoning. Zoning is not something you switch on and off. You can't even see the positioning game that the guile player is playing. Throwing a fireball for the sake of throwing a fireball at nearly pointblank range is NOT zoning. Again you closed your eyes, covered your ears, and shouted "NO!! YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND 3S!!!". 3S is a dumb hit confirm game, just like Jojo's and CVS2 (I love both of them). You have yet to disprove my claims otherwise. For the record I don't like bland games like SSF4.
hotbreakfast, i don't care whether its balanced or not, I'm gonna play Hugo and not give a fuck, but I do know that if you were flaming in the same way in a Starcraft thread then you would just get banned for balance whining. So you can stop now.
On July 13 2011 11:34 seaofsaturn wrote: hotbreakfast, i don't care whether its balanced or not, I'm gonna play Hugo and not give a fuck, but I do know that if you were flaming in the same way in a Starcraft thread then you would just get banned for balance whining. So you can stop now.
I'm not whining about balance. MvC2 is my favorite fighting game off all time and you don't see me or any other marvel heads claiming it's balanced. I just find it silly that there are some 3S players who keep claiming their game as balanced, because nothing can be wrong with 3S. It's the most perfect game in the world and nothing can be wrong with it!
On July 13 2011 11:37 FACENC wrote: Yeah, it is obvious neither of us is going to change the other's minds. 3s is dope. Play it when it comes out.
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmE2lkYgpcw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwpps4CvwY
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
On July 13 2011 08:47 Wangsta wrote: @hotbreakfast
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
I never said 2MK -> SA2 is everything that makes her stupid, but it's one of the reasons. The only problem is you claim that your Chun requires so much execution to play well, which is absolutely laughable. Chun is a character with the best footsies and her normals are incredibly difficult to punish, all while having dumb grab range due to her kara throw. I already said earlier that I play 3S, and I've watched so much of it that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Sorry, but 3S isn't balanced because an 8:2 matchup is still an 8:2 matchup. I'll let this guy from SRK say it for me:
Your idea of zoning is dated. Guile throwing projectiles, which forces the opponent to jump over them (because there are no options), makes it an easy simon-says of throw projectile, punish jump-in, repeat. You just don't understand 3s zoning, the game is probably too fast for you or something.
Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent.
The majority of parries you'll see are either option selects or on-reaction to jump-ins/while playing footsies. There are just as many 50/50s in SF4 or whatever, because of meaty moves. And "all the work" of getting to your opponent in 3s is pressing up and forward at the same time, parrying or stuffing their anti-air (yes it's a 50/50 deal with it, at least there are other options than jump over fireball get shoryukened).
3rd strike operates on different fundamentals. It's a completely different game, don't try to compare it to sf2/4. Mixups are not a "fuck fundamentals reward" if you have proper 3rd strike fundamentals, which include (among a million other things that sf2/4 fundamentals don't have) recognizing patterns and option-selecting to beat the most likely moves your opponent will throw out.
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmE2lkYgpcw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwpps4CvwY
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
On July 13 2011 08:47 Wangsta wrote: @hotbreakfast
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
I never said 2MK -> SA2 is everything that makes her stupid, but it's one of the reasons. The only problem is you claim that your Chun requires so much execution to play well, which is absolutely laughable. Chun is a character with the best footsies and her normals are incredibly difficult to punish, all while having dumb grab range due to her kara throw. I already said earlier that I play 3S, and I've watched so much of it that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Sorry, but 3S isn't balanced because an 8:2 matchup is still an 8:2 matchup. I'll let this guy from SRK say it for me:
Your idea of zoning is dated. Guile throwing projectiles, which forces the opponent to jump over them (because there are no options), makes it an easy simon-says of throw projectile, punish jump-in, repeat. You just don't understand 3s zoning, the game is probably too fast for you or something.
Sorry, there is no long range zoning in 3S. The whole point of zoning is to limit your opponents options. If you can't see the positioning game the Guile is playing, then I can't force you to understand. Parries remove trapping as a legit strategy. Yeah, maybe I'll just go back to MvC2 because 3S is just too fast for me.
I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
On July 13 2011 11:49 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
Bottom line is that capcom has never made a balanced game.
On July 13 2011 11:49 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
You can't counter that, because you have no solid argument. It's all the same for you "3S loonies" ain't it?
On July 13 2011 11:49 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
Bottom line is that capcom has never made a balanced game.
NEVER.
Actually Darkstalkers 3 (aka Vampire Savior), is incredibly balanced. Bottom tiers have consistently been able to place high in tournaments.
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmE2lkYgpcw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwpps4CvwY
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
On July 13 2011 08:47 Wangsta wrote: @hotbreakfast
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
I never said 2MK -> SA2 is everything that makes her stupid, but it's one of the reasons. The only problem is you claim that your Chun requires so much execution to play well, which is absolutely laughable. Chun is a character with the best footsies and her normals are incredibly difficult to punish, all while having dumb grab range due to her kara throw. I already said earlier that I play 3S, and I've watched so much of it that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Sorry, but 3S isn't balanced because an 8:2 matchup is still an 8:2 matchup. I'll let this guy from SRK say it for me:
Your idea of zoning is dated. Guile throwing projectiles, which forces the opponent to jump over them (because there are no options), makes it an easy simon-says of throw projectile, punish jump-in, repeat. You just don't understand 3s zoning, the game is probably too fast for you or something.
Sorry, there is no long range zoning in 3S. The whole point of zoning is to limit your opponents options. If you can't see the positioning game the Guile is playing, then I can't force you to understand. Parries remove trapping as a legit strategy. Yeah, maybe I'll just go back to MvC2 because 3S is just too fast for me.
Look at this video:
How can you not see the amazing traps Messatsu is laying out in round 1? It's just different and doesn't involve fireball-spam. Why can't you believe there are different ways to zone/trap? Also note that it all starts off a punish on a whiffed move.
I fail to see the point when people have already mentioned it while I was in dreamland to which, you also just covered your ears and shout "LALALALALA"
FYI, I'm primarily a Marvel-2 player as well. So I should be the last one to talk about "Fake balance" or whatever
EDIT: Of course capcom never made a balanced fighter. That would be boring.
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmE2lkYgpcw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwpps4CvwY
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
On July 13 2011 08:47 Wangsta wrote: @hotbreakfast
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
I never said 2MK -> SA2 is everything that makes her stupid, but it's one of the reasons. The only problem is you claim that your Chun requires so much execution to play well, which is absolutely laughable. Chun is a character with the best footsies and her normals are incredibly difficult to punish, all while having dumb grab range due to her kara throw. I already said earlier that I play 3S, and I've watched so much of it that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Sorry, but 3S isn't balanced because an 8:2 matchup is still an 8:2 matchup. I'll let this guy from SRK say it for me:
Your idea of zoning is dated. Guile throwing projectiles, which forces the opponent to jump over them (because there are no options), makes it an easy simon-says of throw projectile, punish jump-in, repeat. You just don't understand 3s zoning, the game is probably too fast for you or something.
Sorry, there is no long range zoning in 3S. The whole point of zoning is to limit your opponents options. If you can't see the positioning game the Guile is playing, then I can't force you to understand. Parries remove trapping as a legit strategy. Yeah, maybe I'll just go back to MvC2 because 3S is just too fast for me.
How can you not see the amazing traps Messatsu is laying out in round 1? It's just different and doesn't involve fireball-spam. Why can't you believe there are different ways to zone/trap? Also note that it all starts off a punish on a whiffed move.
Lol the fact that you just said "fireball-spam". Keeps me from taking you seriously. Round 1, certainly didn't have much zoning didn't it? All I saw was Dudley getting corner fucked by random 50/50 high and low mixups. Round 2, there was definitely a trap, but it's not zoning at all. I will admit that I've always been a fan of Urien's character design. Urien's Reflector always had interesting properties. However, it's still possible to parry that even though it's difficult.
On July 13 2011 11:59 myrmidon2537 wrote: I fail to see the point when people have already mentioned it while I was in dreamland to which, you also just covered your ears and shout "LALALALALA"
FYI, I'm primarily a Marvel-2 player as well. So I should be the last one to talk about "Fake balance" or whatever
EDIT: Of course capcom never made a balanced fighter. That would be boring.
Yes, you did miss the point because you were in dreamland. Parries remove lots of good shit from the game, and for some reason you guys just aren't picking that up. You have yet to tell me what are the benefits of having parries. Since you say parries help balance, how come no lower tier characters are capable of placing high consistently in 3S? Maybe, because it's an imbalanced game. Yes, capcom did make one balanced fighter. I've repeated it's name multiple times in this thread.
Thing is, to me, parries do remove shit like fireball zoning and the traditionally guaranteed anti-air. Parries at least let you think before throwing out your herp-derp too good zoning normals and punish.
SF3 series has a very different mechanic from the traditional ST we all know and love. Approaching it with a ST mindset just doesn't work for the game. ST isn't the end-all-be-all bible for how FG basics should be (Although its pretty damn good at it)
Imagine a 3s without parries. The game would be turrible
Edit: I've stated my case already that I think 3s is more balanced than AE, not that its "the most balanced shit out there". so you really shouldn't be throwing that at me.
If SF3 is so easy why it is always the same guys who are winning ? You should just go to Japan and win some tournaments if the game is "stupid, broken, dumb, easy, and imbalanced" ( to quote your words ).
Otherwise shut up because you are really annoying. Also if you want a balanced game go play mirror only. A game can't be balanced perfectly if you have different character / races / weapon spawns etc ...
Explanation of the messatsu video. I'm by no means a top-level urien player though.
6 seconds in to the video urien starts charging up his moves, while making it seem like he's not charging by dashing around, doing stand LP etc. Dudley thinks he's safe to whiff moves because urien can only reach him by tackle. The execution for this is fucking ridiculous mind you, messatsu is possibly the only person able to do this with enough ease and precision for it to be useful in matches.
The anti-air fireball I consider a trap because he anticipates the parry and re-parries dudley (this is possible to select/do on reaction of course, essentially a safe move urien unless dudders parries -> lands and grabs or even starts a combo).
The Next, urien half-whiffs his c.HP (the elbow move that dudley parries at 0:14), it is a 2-hit move but messatsu times it so that only the second hit connects. Dudley expects to parry both hits and gets hit by the headbutt.
At 22 sec, more charging shennanigans, masking his charge and dashes in for the punish when dudley thinks he's safe.
On July 13 2011 12:12 myrmidon2537 wrote: Thing is, to me, parries do remove shit like fireball zoning and the traditionally guaranteed anti-air. Parries at least let you think before throwing out your herp-derp too good zoning normals and punish.
SF3 series has a very different mechanic from the traditional ST we all know and love. Approaching it with a ST mindset just doesn't work for the game. ST isn't the end-all-be-all bible for how FG basics should be (Although its pretty damn good at it)
Imagine a 3s without parries. The game would be turrible
I'm not just talking about ST. Last time I checked, even crazy games like MvC2 and Jojo's have zoning and traps as legit strategies. Parries don't make you think twice about derping out your zoning tools, because they simply remove them from the game. That is why parries are a bad mechanic for 2D fighters or at least the way they were implemented in 3S makes them bad. ST isn't the be-all-end-all of 2D fighters, but to say parries don't promote silly amounts of guessing makes them bad.
On July 13 2011 12:17 Boblion wrote: If SF3 is so easy why it is always the same guys who are winning ? You should just go to Japan and win some tournaments if the game is "stupid, broken, dumb, easy, and imbalanced" ( to quote your words ).
Otherwise shut up because you are really annoying. Also if you want a balanced game go play mirror only. A game can't be balanced perfectly if you have different character / races / weapon spawns etc ...
*Sigh...* How many times do I have to repeat that I'm an mvc2 player and I don't give two shits about balance? Just calling out those adorable 3S players who keep claiming that their game is balanced. If anything parries just add a stupid technical learning curve, and don't add any depth to the game. Amazing!! You have a game that's DERP at a high level and it's harder to get into!!
They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Have you seen that video where Daigo Ken was going to get chipped by Jwong's chunli's super, but he parried the whole thing and proceeded to take the win? Granted, that was super high level, but still gives you an option out.
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Unfortunately, because I derailed the thread so much (sorry ^_^), we'll have to finish up the debate VIA PMs if you want to continue.
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Have you seen that video where Jwong was going to get chipped by chunli's super, but he parried the whole thing and proceeded to take the win? Granted, that was super high level, but still gives you an option out.
Wat? I honestly don't get it (Your point I mean, sorry, I'm feeling a bit slow, just had breakfast) =\ I'm pretty sure everyone who's a FG player has seen that tho
We can continue it if you'd like, but I'm fine as it is right now. I know not everyone pleases/likes parries. (our main pont of contention) I know 3s isn't god-like balanced (which is your point that I agree with). But if you still feel like it, go on ahead
On July 13 2011 12:33 Boblion wrote: Whining about "technical learning curve" and difficulty on a broodwar forum. I'm laughing so hard.
Last response by me, regarding any of these related issues. So what kind of depth does this technical learning curve add? Sorry, it adds nothing except guessing games. It takes options away from the game. If parries actually added something good for the game, then I would be all for parries. Last time I checked MvC2>>>>3S when it came to execution. Good night guys!
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Have you seen that video where Jwong was going to get chipped by chunli's super, but he parried the whole thing and proceeded to take the win? Granted, that was super high level, but still gives you an option out.
Wat? I honestly don't get it (Your point I mean, sorry, I'm feeling a bit slow, just had breakfast) =\ I'm pretty sure everyone who's a FG player has seen that tho
We can continue it if you'd like, but I'm fine as it is right now. I know not everyone pleases/likes parries. (our main pont of contention) I know 3s isn't god-like balanced (which is your point that I agree with). But if you still feel like it, go on ahead
EDIT: indeed.
At this point, I'm so sick of debating that I'd prefer to bury this. xDDD
On July 13 2011 12:33 Boblion wrote: Whining about "technical learning curve" and difficulty on a broodwar forum. I'm laughing so hard.
Last response by me, regarding any of these related issues. So what kind of depth does this technical learning curve add? Sorry, it adds nothing except guessing games. It takes options away from the game. If parries actually added something good for the game, then I would be all for parries. Last time I checked MvC2>>>>3S when it came to execution. Good night guys!
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Have you seen that video where Jwong was going to get chipped by chunli's super, but he parried the whole thing and proceeded to take the win? Granted, that was super high level, but still gives you an option out.
Wat? I honestly don't get it (Your point I mean, sorry, I'm feeling a bit slow, just had breakfast) =\ I'm pretty sure everyone who's a FG player has seen that tho
We can continue it if you'd like, but I'm fine as it is right now. I know not everyone pleases/likes parries. (our main pont of contention) I know 3s isn't god-like balanced (which is your point that I agree with). But if you still feel like it, go on ahead
EDIT: indeed.
At this point, I'm so sick of debating that I'd prefer to bury this. xDDD
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
On July 13 2011 12:19 Adeny wrote: 6 seconds in to the video urien starts charging up his moves, while making it seem like he's not charging by dashing around, doing stand LP etc. Dudley thinks he's safe to whiff moves because urien can only reach him by tackle. The execution for this is fucking ridiculous mind you, messatsu is possibly the only person able to do this with enough ease and precision for it to be useful in matches.
You're overestimating the skill required for charge partitioning by a huge margin. Charge partitioning seems impossibly difficult at first, but for players who do it constantly it just becomes part of their movements. A friend of mine who is a very high level Urien player showed me how he keeps up his charge between every hit in a block string when I was first learning how 3s worked. Doing things like a standing flash kick with Remy or even a tachi-gigas takes some time to get down the muscle memory and then practice doing it with a moving target. It's similar to how amazing parries look to a bystander when done in real matches at clutch times, they seem psychic, but it's a skill developed with exposure.
On July 13 2011 12:47 Adeny wrote:
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
Aside from the technical aspect which I will admit the parry system and improvements to street fighter 2 make the game much deeper, it has other problems. The big problem I had from just casually playing a little of it is that the characters, music, levels, and the game overall pale in comparison to street fighter 2 in my opinion. The characters are not anywhere near as memorable, it has maybe 1 or 2 decent level musics compared to a lot of awesome ones in street fighter 2. I guess I just played street fighter 3 and just said this game is nowhere near as cool as old street fighter 2 but it does have a deeper fighting system.
On July 13 2011 12:33 Boblion wrote: Whining about "technical learning curve" and difficulty on a broodwar forum. I'm laughing so hard.
Last response by me, regarding any of these related issues. So what kind of depth does this technical learning curve add? Sorry, it adds nothing except guessing games. It takes options away from the game. If parries actually added something good for the game, then I would be all for parries. Last time I checked MvC2>>>>3S when it came to execution. Good night guys!
On July 13 2011 12:38 myrmidon2537 wrote:
On July 13 2011 12:32 101toss wrote:
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Have you seen that video where Jwong was going to get chipped by chunli's super, but he parried the whole thing and proceeded to take the win? Granted, that was super high level, but still gives you an option out.
Wat? I honestly don't get it (Your point I mean, sorry, I'm feeling a bit slow, just had breakfast) =\ I'm pretty sure everyone who's a FG player has seen that tho
We can continue it if you'd like, but I'm fine as it is right now. I know not everyone pleases/likes parries. (our main pont of contention) I know 3s isn't god-like balanced (which is your point that I agree with). But if you still feel like it, go on ahead
EDIT: indeed.
At this point, I'm so sick of debating that I'd prefer to bury this. xDDD
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
Of course Urien requires a lot of execution, but he has nothing over magneto's ROM and sentinel's and ironman's fly/unfly combos. There is a reason why Josh360 is the ONLY ironman in the world with enough execution to be considered anything close to the theoretical "touch of death" ironman.
On July 13 2011 12:19 Adeny wrote: 6 seconds in to the video urien starts charging up his moves, while making it seem like he's not charging by dashing around, doing stand LP etc. Dudley thinks he's safe to whiff moves because urien can only reach him by tackle. The execution for this is fucking ridiculous mind you, messatsu is possibly the only person able to do this with enough ease and precision for it to be useful in matches.
You're overestimating the skill required for charge partitioning by a huge margin. Charge partitioning seems impossibly difficult at first, but for players who do it constantly it just becomes part of their movements. A friend of mine who is a very high level Urien player showed me how he keeps up his charge between every hit in a block string when I was first learning how 3s worked. Doing things like a standing flash kick with Remy or even a tachi-gigas takes some time to get down the muscle memory and then practice doing it with a moving target. It's similar to how amazing parries look to a bystander when done in real matches at clutch times, they seem psychic, but it's a skill developed with exposure.
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
Eddie from GG is much harder to play.
The timing isn't the difficult portion of charging like messatsu (although being a human metronome is no small task either). Rather being able to position yourself properly when you can't walk, and keeping momentum while masking charges and having some resemblance of pressure. You almost never see other uriens utilize it except for in pre-practiced scenarios like "block-strings" (not really in 3s), unblockables etc.
And to be fair I have no idea about eddie in GG, you might be right.
On July 13 2011 12:19 Adeny wrote: 6 seconds in to the video urien starts charging up his moves, while making it seem like he's not charging by dashing around, doing stand LP etc. Dudley thinks he's safe to whiff moves because urien can only reach him by tackle. The execution for this is fucking ridiculous mind you, messatsu is possibly the only person able to do this with enough ease and precision for it to be useful in matches.
You're overestimating the skill required for charge partitioning by a huge margin. Charge partitioning seems impossibly difficult at first, but for players who do it constantly it just becomes part of their movements. A friend of mine who is a very high level Urien player showed me how he keeps up his charge between every hit in a block string when I was first learning how 3s worked. Doing things like a standing flash kick with Remy or even a tachi-gigas takes some time to get down the muscle memory and then practice doing it with a moving target. It's similar to how amazing parries look to a bystander when done in real matches at clutch times, they seem psychic, but it's a skill developed with exposure.
On July 13 2011 12:47 Adeny wrote:
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
Eddie from GG is much harder to play.
The timing isn't the difficult portion of charging like messatsu (although being a human metronome is no small task either). Rather being able to position yourself properly when you can't walk, and keeping momentum while masking charges and having some resemblance of pressure. You almost never see other uriens utilize it except for in pre-practiced scenarios like "block-strings" (not really in 3s), unblockables etc.
And to be fair I have no idea about eddie in GG, you might be right.
Sorry, "block string" was a bad term, just used as habit. In between blocked normals he was able to maintain a charge. In GG the character Eddie plays in a very unique way. He is really two characters, Zato (the man) and Eddie (the shadow). When pressing a button down it is an input for Zato, when releasing a button it in an input for Eddie. So your combos require precise presses and releases. When paring this with the fast, aggressive pace of GG, it becomes incredibly hard.
On July 13 2011 12:19 Adeny wrote: 6 seconds in to the video urien starts charging up his moves, while making it seem like he's not charging by dashing around, doing stand LP etc. Dudley thinks he's safe to whiff moves because urien can only reach him by tackle. The execution for this is fucking ridiculous mind you, messatsu is possibly the only person able to do this with enough ease and precision for it to be useful in matches.
You're overestimating the skill required for charge partitioning by a huge margin. Charge partitioning seems impossibly difficult at first, but for players who do it constantly it just becomes part of their movements. A friend of mine who is a very high level Urien player showed me how he keeps up his charge between every hit in a block string when I was first learning how 3s worked. Doing things like a standing flash kick with Remy or even a tachi-gigas takes some time to get down the muscle memory and then practice doing it with a moving target. It's similar to how amazing parries look to a bystander when done in real matches at clutch times, they seem psychic, but it's a skill developed with exposure.
On July 13 2011 12:47 Adeny wrote:
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
Eddie from GG is much harder to play.
The timing isn't the difficult portion of charging like messatsu (although being a human metronome is no small task either). Rather being able to position yourself properly when you can't walk, and keeping momentum while masking charges and having some resemblance of pressure. You almost never see other uriens utilize it except for in pre-practiced scenarios like "block-strings" (not really in 3s), unblockables etc.
And to be fair I have no idea about eddie in GG, you might be right.
Sorry, "block string" was a bad term, just used as habit. In between blocked normals he was able to maintain a charge. In GG the character Eddie plays in a very unique way. He is really two characters, Zato (the man) and Eddie (the shadow). When pressing a button down it is an input for Zato, when releasing a button it in an input for Eddie. So your combos require precise presses and releases. When paring this with the fast, aggressive pace of GG, it becomes incredibly hard.
That sounds incredibly fun (and let's be honest, who gives a shit what's harder, better, more balanced. We play what we find more fun and for me that's 3s).
Hey, sorry to fuel a mostly pointless discussion, but 3S is too dear to me for me to ignore this. >_<
I understand that it's not the entirety of his argument (or even necessarily a key point), but I have a problem with hotbreakfast's use of the word "zoning". It seems like he's using the word like many people do, to mean "long range obstacle-course" style gameplay (like tiger shots ad nauseum from Sagat in ST or Dhalsim in any game). However, Maj in this article lays out a description of zoning that I feel is much more comprehensive and useful, as it generalizes to non-fireball characters (and thus non-fireball games).
The gist of the article is that "zoning" is the practice of trying to maintain a positional advantage over your opponent. For example, Sagat is totally OK with being on the opposite side of the screen throwing tiger shots, because other characters have few or zero options that allow them to threaten him, while he can chip/hit them with his projectiles (this is the zoning hotbreakfast is talking about). Zangief prefers to be close to his opponent, because then he can threaten his command grabs, whereas if he is more than 1/3 of the screen away, his options to threaten his opponent become drastically reduced. Maj describes players trying to capitalize on either of these types of advantages as "zoning", because they revolve around the ideas that matchups put one or the other character at an advantage based on their positioning (in zones).
In this manner, 3S very much has zoning, though the long range obstacle course type of zoning is much, much weaker (to the point of being absent from high level play). I would imagine from hotbreakfast's description of every character in Vampire Saviour being rushdown, that the case is likely similar there. In both games, I can hardly imagine that zoning does not exist (I think only Ivan Ooze ignores zoning ;D). In 3S, Chun-Li is gains an advantage when she is slightly outside her cr.MK range, because she can step in at a moment's notice and land ENORMOUS damage and possibly put her opponent in a corner-wakeup situation off a ridiculously easy cancel (or is it a link...? I think it's a cancel...). Similarly, she also has an advantage at the farthest extent of her kara-throw range, because she may threaten her opponent with throws, while her opponent cannot (unless they're Q I think). In Yun vs Chun, Yun's shorter range normals mean that it's dangerous for him to be at the distance where he cannot punish blocks or parries with his target combo or hit confirm into Genei-Jin and where Chun-Li can attempt to poke him with his s.HP or other hilaribroke normals, so he would ideally want to be closer, to be able to punish, or farther (at least temporarily) to avoid Chun having such a significant advantage.
I agree that parrying removes fullscreen zoning (Necro and Remy are ass compared to Dhalsim and Guile in almost every single game they've been in), but I don't agree that zoning is not present in 3S by Maj's more comprehensive definition.
Also, parrying does not make everything unsafe in practice. People block more than they parry in every SBO match I've seen, and it's silly to think that they simply aren't good enough at the game. Theoretically, everything is unsafe of course. However, because of the speed of the game and the variation in the parrying timing of moves, it's not practical to try to parry everything. Saying that because parrying EVERYTHING is possible that it weakens the game is like saying that MvC2 is unplayable because if you ever get blocked against a player having Cable not on point with 2+ meters, he can alpha counter using Cable's scimitar and combo into AHVB (OK fine I'm exaggerating a little). I agree that random parrying is kind of annoying, but it's just a lower risk/lower reward version of punishing things with psychic DPs or random supers.
What does parrying add to the game? Nothing universally liked, clearly, but it makes you think about every button you press outside of a combo, which is something that at least some people like. Obviously 3S is not as good at being ST as ST is, but unlike a lot of games that are not as good at being ST as ST is, it does bring something different to the table that can be enjoyable.
And regarding extreme execution requirements: a couple of characters in 3S actually have touch of death combos, but they are never seen because the level execution required is much too high for them to be practical in real play. That said, I don't think it's meaningful to try to compare the upper extremes of execution requirements between Capcom fighting games. All I need to know is that Justin Wong is the king of MvC2 and he drops combos in SF4 and 3S as well.
PS: To whoever hasn't noticed before, Daigo predicted the unconfirmed super in the full parry match. If you don't believe me, watch the video and see him tapping forward right before it happens.
PPS: To whoever said it, saying Gootecks is like players on KTFlash isn't actually that accurate, because the one time his team advanced past the first round in SBO, he got at least one (or maybe 2 or 3, I can't remember) of the victories. This does ignore the qualification process though, in which I don't know whether or not Pyrolee did all the work.
I would say MvC2 generally requires heavier execution. Urien is pretty tough though.
EDIT: I just read the long post Pretty good, just some comments.
Justin was the MvC2 god, but he wasn't near the one with best technical execution, its just that he just understood the game so well which makes up for it totally
Deadhaji once PM'd me when we talked about the Daigo parry before in the old Fighting game thread. He was baiting it, Justin didn't even have super at that time so he threw a couple o' fireballs to give him the meter to do the super.
I also think Gootecks probably got one if he won, but wasn't the time they advanced when the opposing team only had 2 members (one was sick)?
Justin didn't get baited. He obviously knew of the risk involved in supering, he just figured there'd be no way Daigo would be able to do the full parry live on stage. Daigo knew justin knew this, and figured well, my only way out is to try to parry, and it is in that situation.
I'm sure justin did know the risk, but Daigo forced him to take that risk, (By giving him enough meter to do the super by throwing random fireballs that accomplish nothing really but parry-meter bait)
Because really, Justin HAD another way out: sit back and let daigo come to him, but as we all know, justin is always Mindfuck'd vs daigo.
I doubt he doesn't know what Daigo is capable of at that point in time Just my two cents.
On July 13 2011 11:49 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
You can't counter that, because you have no solid argument. It's all the same for you "3S loonies" ain't it?
On July 13 2011 11:49 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
Bottom line is that capcom has never made a balanced game.
NEVER.
Actually Darkstalkers 3 (aka Vampire Savior), is incredibly balanced. Bottom tiers have consistently been able to place high in tournaments.
I think Lilith (Kaji) and Jedah (Shimatsuya, Ouchi) are arguably not low tier, but those characters (well, players) place high in a lot of tournaments.
Anyway, it's not much the characters that make it balanced but the system and speed of the game. I think this is the argument that some people are applying to 3s, but it's much more so here. There are still many matchups that are 6.5-3.5 or worse, but it feels tolerable since everybody can kill everybody else so easily once they get the momentum.
On July 13 2011 14:24 myrmidon2537 wrote: I would say MvC2 generally requires heavier execution. Urien is pretty tough though.
EDIT: I just read the long post Pretty good, just some comments.
Justin was the MvC2 god, but he wasn't near the one with best technical execution, its just that he just understood the game so well which makes up for it totally
Deadhaji once PM'd me when we talked about the Daigo parry before in the old Fighting game thread. He was baiting it, Justin didn't even have super at that time so he threw a couple o' fireballs to give him the meter to do the super.
I also think Gootecks probably got one if he won, but wasn't the time they advanced when the opposing team only had 2 members (one was sick)?
He didn't just bait the super, he was also just playing with Justin and his very turtle style. Justin could have done what he always did and hold down back and just wait it out, attack him with ANY move later on to chip, there really was no reason to throw out the super except that he knew Justin wanted to show people he wasn't just about turtling.
On July 13 2011 15:34 Adeny wrote: Justin didn't get baited. He obviously knew of the risk involved in supering, he just figured there'd be no way Daigo would be able to do the full parry live on stage. Daigo knew justin knew this, and figured well, my only way out is to try to parry, and it is in that situation.
You're wrong. Lol. Ask Justin or any of his friends or watch any interview or ANYTHING from that time, Daigo baited it.
Yep, Zlasher hit it on the head. Daigo was just toying with justin the whole time. I recall the first two rounds he was so intent on landing c.mk shoryuu all day as his whole offense (which is why daigo lost round 2)
You guys are crazy. You can clearly see them come to a mutual agreement by how they stall before the super. Justin is clearly saying "so this is how it's going to be? You're going to try the parry?" There's like a 5 second stall, if Justin wasn't positive Daigo was going to miss the parry he wouldn't have supered.
I'm sorry, but I really don't think that's what happened because that's stupid (For lack of a better term.)
They come to a "Mutual agreement?" Really? Daigo was buffering forwards and moving back when he got too close, he was waiting for it. Justin decided on risking it (a poor one at that) because he already let his nerves get to him after daigo pressured him so hard in the corner.
That coupled with Daigo being known to them as GDLK already caused him to make a poor decision. The bait was forcing justin into making that risk by throwing the last fireball to give Justin exactly one bar. (Justin ended up with a little over one bar because he traded with daigo's poke, which probably tilt him even more because it left daigo with practically 0 health and sure to die from chip)
Given that Daigo RTSD'd Justin so bad, he could also just have gone that route as his only other option (Risky), he decided that its better to hope Justin gets greedy and comes to him first.
The way you say it such that "Justin figured there's no way he could do a full parry on the live stage" seems to put it such that he was underestimating Daigo and decided to roll the dice because its in his favor, when in fact, it's more on the lines of "Oh shit what do I do I gotta kill him now before he rushes me to death again SUPER!"
Have you even watched the whole set? (outside the parry clip)
They come to a "Mutual agreement?" Really? Daigo was buffering forwards and moving back when he got too close, he was waiting for it.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Daigo signaled that he intended to parry the super, he buffered the first parry like 6+ times, justin obviously noticed but supered anyways, thus "mutual agreement". So yes it's rolling the dice, and 9 times out of 10 you're opponent isn't going to both hit the first parry and then know the parry sequence so well that he's able to do it on stage every time. Justins odds are fairly good, and probably better than if he had to make more decisions i.e. try to play normally, because even if he's ahead in life, he's still 1 combo away from death.
Yes I've seen the set, don't know how it's relevant though.
Daigo Signaling that he intended to parry obviously means he knows he can parry it. Otherwise, why make such a poor decision to parry if he knows he can't when he does fine rushing justin down.
The only thing "hard" about that parry is that its on stage (The pressure) and parrying the first kick, the rest is a set-rhythm that isn't too hard at all to know.
Relevance of the set is you can see how Daigo systematically picks apart Justin affecting his state of mind.
Did justin roll the dice? Yes. Was he BAITED to roll it? Definitely because Justin.Didn't.Need.To. For all you know, what could be going on justin's head is that "is he stuttering before going in? So to sum up, Justin did roll the dice and his decision to do so was affected by Daigo baiting him to do it and putting himself in a position for justin to consider it (+ the pressure). There is no "Mutual agreement" such that "lol ok you wanna see if you can do this? k fine let the best man win."
This incident has been documented and talked about a bajillion times, and this is the first time anyone has ever talked about mutual agreements about this.
EDIT: Ugh, better stop derailing this thread yet again with another argument. =\ Gonna concentrate on GSL now
On July 13 2011 15:34 Adeny wrote: Justin didn't get baited. He obviously knew of the risk involved in supering, he just figured there'd be no way Daigo would be able to do the full parry live on stage. Daigo knew justin knew this, and figured well, my only way out is to try to parry, and it is in that situation.
I'm looking forward to this game. I always wanted to get into fighting games, hopefully this game will attracts some newbies so i don't get facefucked every game. Although i probably will
The problem with 3S are the poorly designed characters, like twelve, sean, q, etc. that leads to 9-1 match ups like chun vs sean, and in some degree the parry system. To me, is one of the most broken SF in terms of characters, with hard counters and almost unwinnable match ups (if you hate Yun in AE, oh god you will see his true colors in 3S), and the parry isn't that hard to do, i played 3S just a couple of weeks and i was able to parry all of the ibuki SA (the knife one), i got the video of that
Take ST for example, it has one of the hardest execution in the series, but its pretty balanced (except claw's wall dive hitbox and o.sagat uppercut damage), but everyone can play with every char and be capable of win, not everyone is a tier whore like 3S (Yun, Chun and Ken all day erry day) and thats why i love it.
3S is pretty good i don't deny it, but i prefeer ST, even SBO still support ST and 3S not.
Parrying Ibuki SA1 requires nothing but you mashing toward on the joystick as fast as you can. It is literally one of the easiest things to parry in the game.
Also, SBO not having 3s this year has less to do with the quality of the game and more to do with Enterbrain bleeding cash. SBO went from 12 games over 3 days last year to 4 games on 1 day this year. It is a shell of what it once was.
On July 21 2011 17:55 FACENC wrote: Parrying Ibuki SA1 requires nothing but you mashing toward on the joystick as fast as you can. It is literally one of the easiest things to parry in the game.
Yeah i said that, its easy to do, just need some rythm like someone said before. The second time i tried to parry it, i did like you said mash the stick towards, but i was unable to parry it all, just like half of it.
For hard games and challenges, play the SF2 series. ST is literally the BW of the SF saga.
The top Japanese players for the uncommon characters are so fun to watch in this game; you can really see the huge amount of skill they've acquired on display when you see them destroying other top players as well.
On October 27 2011 12:31 Chill wrote: I still don't have any 3s practice partners. Laddering is fun but I'd really like if someone from TL wanted to run some sets!
EPT
)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/feIHH.jpg)
