On July 13 2011 11:49 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
You can't counter that, because you have no solid argument. It's all the same for you "3S loonies" ain't it?
On July 13 2011 11:49 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
Bottom line is that capcom has never made a balanced game.
NEVER.
Actually Darkstalkers 3 (aka Vampire Savior), is incredibly balanced. Bottom tiers have consistently been able to place high in tournaments.
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match.
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning
On July 13 2011 08:47 Wangsta wrote: @hotbreakfast
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
I never said 2MK -> SA2 is everything that makes her stupid, but it's one of the reasons. The only problem is you claim that your Chun requires so much execution to play well, which is absolutely laughable. Chun is a character with the best footsies and her normals are incredibly difficult to punish, all while having dumb grab range due to her kara throw. I already said earlier that I play 3S, and I've watched so much of it that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Sorry, but 3S isn't balanced because an 8:2 matchup is still an 8:2 matchup. I'll let this guy from SRK say it for me:
Your idea of zoning is dated. Guile throwing projectiles, which forces the opponent to jump over them (because there are no options), makes it an easy simon-says of throw projectile, punish jump-in, repeat. You just don't understand 3s zoning, the game is probably too fast for you or something.
Sorry, there is no long range zoning in 3S. The whole point of zoning is to limit your opponents options. If you can't see the positioning game the Guile is playing, then I can't force you to understand. Parries remove trapping as a legit strategy. Yeah, maybe I'll just go back to MvC2 because 3S is just too fast for me.
Look at this video:
How can you not see the amazing traps Messatsu is laying out in round 1? It's just different and doesn't involve fireball-spam. Why can't you believe there are different ways to zone/trap? Also note that it all starts off a punish on a whiffed move.
I fail to see the point when people have already mentioned it while I was in dreamland to which, you also just covered your ears and shout "LALALALALA"
FYI, I'm primarily a Marvel-2 player as well. So I should be the last one to talk about "Fake balance" or whatever
EDIT: Of course capcom never made a balanced fighter. That would be boring.
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmE2lkYgpcw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwpps4CvwY
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
On July 13 2011 08:47 Wangsta wrote: @hotbreakfast
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
I never said 2MK -> SA2 is everything that makes her stupid, but it's one of the reasons. The only problem is you claim that your Chun requires so much execution to play well, which is absolutely laughable. Chun is a character with the best footsies and her normals are incredibly difficult to punish, all while having dumb grab range due to her kara throw. I already said earlier that I play 3S, and I've watched so much of it that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Sorry, but 3S isn't balanced because an 8:2 matchup is still an 8:2 matchup. I'll let this guy from SRK say it for me:
Your idea of zoning is dated. Guile throwing projectiles, which forces the opponent to jump over them (because there are no options), makes it an easy simon-says of throw projectile, punish jump-in, repeat. You just don't understand 3s zoning, the game is probably too fast for you or something.
Sorry, there is no long range zoning in 3S. The whole point of zoning is to limit your opponents options. If you can't see the positioning game the Guile is playing, then I can't force you to understand. Parries remove trapping as a legit strategy. Yeah, maybe I'll just go back to MvC2 because 3S is just too fast for me.
How can you not see the amazing traps Messatsu is laying out in round 1? It's just different and doesn't involve fireball-spam. Why can't you believe there are different ways to zone/trap? Also note that it all starts off a punish on a whiffed move.
Lol the fact that you just said "fireball-spam". Keeps me from taking you seriously. Round 1, certainly didn't have much zoning didn't it? All I saw was Dudley getting corner fucked by random 50/50 high and low mixups. Round 2, there was definitely a trap, but it's not zoning at all. I will admit that I've always been a fan of Urien's character design. Urien's Reflector always had interesting properties. However, it's still possible to parry that even though it's difficult.
On July 13 2011 11:59 myrmidon2537 wrote: I fail to see the point when people have already mentioned it while I was in dreamland to which, you also just covered your ears and shout "LALALALALA"
FYI, I'm primarily a Marvel-2 player as well. So I should be the last one to talk about "Fake balance" or whatever
EDIT: Of course capcom never made a balanced fighter. That would be boring.
Yes, you did miss the point because you were in dreamland. Parries remove lots of good shit from the game, and for some reason you guys just aren't picking that up. You have yet to tell me what are the benefits of having parries. Since you say parries help balance, how come no lower tier characters are capable of placing high consistently in 3S? Maybe, because it's an imbalanced game. Yes, capcom did make one balanced fighter. I've repeated it's name multiple times in this thread.
Thing is, to me, parries do remove shit like fireball zoning and the traditionally guaranteed anti-air. Parries at least let you think before throwing out your herp-derp too good zoning normals and punish.
SF3 series has a very different mechanic from the traditional ST we all know and love. Approaching it with a ST mindset just doesn't work for the game. ST isn't the end-all-be-all bible for how FG basics should be (Although its pretty damn good at it)
Imagine a 3s without parries. The game would be turrible
Edit: I've stated my case already that I think 3s is more balanced than AE, not that its "the most balanced shit out there". so you really shouldn't be throwing that at me.
If SF3 is so easy why it is always the same guys who are winning ? You should just go to Japan and win some tournaments if the game is "stupid, broken, dumb, easy, and imbalanced" ( to quote your words ).
Otherwise shut up because you are really annoying. Also if you want a balanced game go play mirror only. A game can't be balanced perfectly if you have different character / races / weapon spawns etc ...
Explanation of the messatsu video. I'm by no means a top-level urien player though.
6 seconds in to the video urien starts charging up his moves, while making it seem like he's not charging by dashing around, doing stand LP etc. Dudley thinks he's safe to whiff moves because urien can only reach him by tackle. The execution for this is fucking ridiculous mind you, messatsu is possibly the only person able to do this with enough ease and precision for it to be useful in matches.
The anti-air fireball I consider a trap because he anticipates the parry and re-parries dudley (this is possible to select/do on reaction of course, essentially a safe move urien unless dudders parries -> lands and grabs or even starts a combo).
The Next, urien half-whiffs his c.HP (the elbow move that dudley parries at 0:14), it is a 2-hit move but messatsu times it so that only the second hit connects. Dudley expects to parry both hits and gets hit by the headbutt.
At 22 sec, more charging shennanigans, masking his charge and dashes in for the punish when dudley thinks he's safe.
On July 13 2011 12:12 myrmidon2537 wrote: Thing is, to me, parries do remove shit like fireball zoning and the traditionally guaranteed anti-air. Parries at least let you think before throwing out your herp-derp too good zoning normals and punish.
SF3 series has a very different mechanic from the traditional ST we all know and love. Approaching it with a ST mindset just doesn't work for the game. ST isn't the end-all-be-all bible for how FG basics should be (Although its pretty damn good at it)
Imagine a 3s without parries. The game would be turrible
I'm not just talking about ST. Last time I checked, even crazy games like MvC2 and Jojo's have zoning and traps as legit strategies. Parries don't make you think twice about derping out your zoning tools, because they simply remove them from the game. That is why parries are a bad mechanic for 2D fighters or at least the way they were implemented in 3S makes them bad. ST isn't the be-all-end-all of 2D fighters, but to say parries don't promote silly amounts of guessing makes them bad.
On July 13 2011 12:17 Boblion wrote: If SF3 is so easy why it is always the same guys who are winning ? You should just go to Japan and win some tournaments if the game is "stupid, broken, dumb, easy, and imbalanced" ( to quote your words ).
Otherwise shut up because you are really annoying. Also if you want a balanced game go play mirror only. A game can't be balanced perfectly if you have different character / races / weapon spawns etc ...
*Sigh...* How many times do I have to repeat that I'm an mvc2 player and I don't give two shits about balance? Just calling out those adorable 3S players who keep claiming that their game is balanced. If anything parries just add a stupid technical learning curve, and don't add any depth to the game. Amazing!! You have a game that's DERP at a high level and it's harder to get into!!
They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Have you seen that video where Daigo Ken was going to get chipped by Jwong's chunli's super, but he parried the whole thing and proceeded to take the win? Granted, that was super high level, but still gives you an option out.
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Unfortunately, because I derailed the thread so much (sorry ^_^), we'll have to finish up the debate VIA PMs if you want to continue.
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Have you seen that video where Jwong was going to get chipped by chunli's super, but he parried the whole thing and proceeded to take the win? Granted, that was super high level, but still gives you an option out.
Wat? I honestly don't get it (Your point I mean, sorry, I'm feeling a bit slow, just had breakfast) =\ I'm pretty sure everyone who's a FG player has seen that tho
We can continue it if you'd like, but I'm fine as it is right now. I know not everyone pleases/likes parries. (our main pont of contention) I know 3s isn't god-like balanced (which is your point that I agree with). But if you still feel like it, go on ahead
On July 13 2011 12:33 Boblion wrote: Whining about "technical learning curve" and difficulty on a broodwar forum. I'm laughing so hard.
Last response by me, regarding any of these related issues. So what kind of depth does this technical learning curve add? Sorry, it adds nothing except guessing games. It takes options away from the game. If parries actually added something good for the game, then I would be all for parries. Last time I checked MvC2>>>>3S when it came to execution. Good night guys!
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Have you seen that video where Jwong was going to get chipped by chunli's super, but he parried the whole thing and proceeded to take the win? Granted, that was super high level, but still gives you an option out.
Wat? I honestly don't get it (Your point I mean, sorry, I'm feeling a bit slow, just had breakfast) =\ I'm pretty sure everyone who's a FG player has seen that tho
We can continue it if you'd like, but I'm fine as it is right now. I know not everyone pleases/likes parries. (our main pont of contention) I know 3s isn't god-like balanced (which is your point that I agree with). But if you still feel like it, go on ahead
EDIT: indeed.
At this point, I'm so sick of debating that I'd prefer to bury this. xDDD
On July 13 2011 12:33 Boblion wrote: Whining about "technical learning curve" and difficulty on a broodwar forum. I'm laughing so hard.
Last response by me, regarding any of these related issues. So what kind of depth does this technical learning curve add? Sorry, it adds nothing except guessing games. It takes options away from the game. If parries actually added something good for the game, then I would be all for parries. Last time I checked MvC2>>>>3S when it came to execution. Good night guys!
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Have you seen that video where Jwong was going to get chipped by chunli's super, but he parried the whole thing and proceeded to take the win? Granted, that was super high level, but still gives you an option out.
Wat? I honestly don't get it (Your point I mean, sorry, I'm feeling a bit slow, just had breakfast) =\ I'm pretty sure everyone who's a FG player has seen that tho
We can continue it if you'd like, but I'm fine as it is right now. I know not everyone pleases/likes parries. (our main pont of contention) I know 3s isn't god-like balanced (which is your point that I agree with). But if you still feel like it, go on ahead
EDIT: indeed.
At this point, I'm so sick of debating that I'd prefer to bury this. xDDD
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
On July 13 2011 12:19 Adeny wrote: 6 seconds in to the video urien starts charging up his moves, while making it seem like he's not charging by dashing around, doing stand LP etc. Dudley thinks he's safe to whiff moves because urien can only reach him by tackle. The execution for this is fucking ridiculous mind you, messatsu is possibly the only person able to do this with enough ease and precision for it to be useful in matches.
You're overestimating the skill required for charge partitioning by a huge margin. Charge partitioning seems impossibly difficult at first, but for players who do it constantly it just becomes part of their movements. A friend of mine who is a very high level Urien player showed me how he keeps up his charge between every hit in a block string when I was first learning how 3s worked. Doing things like a standing flash kick with Remy or even a tachi-gigas takes some time to get down the muscle memory and then practice doing it with a moving target. It's similar to how amazing parries look to a bystander when done in real matches at clutch times, they seem psychic, but it's a skill developed with exposure.
On July 13 2011 12:47 Adeny wrote:
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
Aside from the technical aspect which I will admit the parry system and improvements to street fighter 2 make the game much deeper, it has other problems. The big problem I had from just casually playing a little of it is that the characters, music, levels, and the game overall pale in comparison to street fighter 2 in my opinion. The characters are not anywhere near as memorable, it has maybe 1 or 2 decent level musics compared to a lot of awesome ones in street fighter 2. I guess I just played street fighter 3 and just said this game is nowhere near as cool as old street fighter 2 but it does have a deeper fighting system.
On July 13 2011 12:33 Boblion wrote: Whining about "technical learning curve" and difficulty on a broodwar forum. I'm laughing so hard.
Last response by me, regarding any of these related issues. So what kind of depth does this technical learning curve add? Sorry, it adds nothing except guessing games. It takes options away from the game. If parries actually added something good for the game, then I would be all for parries. Last time I checked MvC2>>>>3S when it came to execution. Good night guys!
On July 13 2011 12:38 myrmidon2537 wrote:
On July 13 2011 12:32 101toss wrote:
On July 13 2011 12:30 myrmidon2537 wrote: They don't remove your derping zoning normals completely (although they do make you think twice about throwing it out) because not everyone lands the parry. Simply a risk-reward that requires some execution and a good read. If you had a bad read or sucked at your execution, you get hit in the face over something you could've just blocked.
If parries were such easy broken crap, why bother blocking then?
Have you seen that video where Jwong was going to get chipped by chunli's super, but he parried the whole thing and proceeded to take the win? Granted, that was super high level, but still gives you an option out.
Wat? I honestly don't get it (Your point I mean, sorry, I'm feeling a bit slow, just had breakfast) =\ I'm pretty sure everyone who's a FG player has seen that tho
We can continue it if you'd like, but I'm fine as it is right now. I know not everyone pleases/likes parries. (our main pont of contention) I know 3s isn't god-like balanced (which is your point that I agree with). But if you still feel like it, go on ahead
EDIT: indeed.
At this point, I'm so sick of debating that I'd prefer to bury this. xDDD
3rd strike has the most difficult execution in any fighter, ever. If you disagree go play urien.
Of course Urien requires a lot of execution, but he has nothing over magneto's ROM and sentinel's and ironman's fly/unfly combos. There is a reason why Josh360 is the ONLY ironman in the world with enough execution to be considered anything close to the theoretical "touch of death" ironman.
EPT
I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/feIHH.jpg)
