if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
oh man that kuroda vs ino video is pretty sick. man the players have gotten so good. who the heck red parries the last hit of a super to do their own? is that common now? i remember practicing red parries on yun's target combo -> shoulder and i could never get it consistently...
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match.
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmE2lkYgpcw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwpps4CvwY
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning
On July 13 2011 08:47 Wangsta wrote: @hotbreakfast
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
I never said 2MK -> SA2 is everything that makes her stupid, but it's one of the reasons. The only problem is you claim that your Chun requires so much execution to play well, which is absolutely laughable. Chun is a character with the best footsies and her normals are incredibly difficult to punish, all while having dumb grab range due to her kara throw. I already said earlier that I play 3S, and I've watched so much of it that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Sorry, but 3S isn't balanced because an 8:2 matchup is still an 8:2 matchup. I'll let this guy from SRK say it for me:
Dude, you can't compare anything to Super Turbo. It's just the best game out there
Now back on topic Great game. It has great music, great gameplay, and for me, stilish art. Too bad 80% of the players will get Yun/Chun/Ken. I don't know if I'll get it.
My favorite 3S players are the Urien ones. Well played Uriens are the real deal and will rape anyone in their way. I can watch kuroda's and RX's matches all day long.
On July 13 2011 11:06 hotbreakfest wrote: Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
So the fact that Guile throws horizontal projectiles and reacts to his opponent's reaction makes it zoning? Or is it that he throws more projectiles than an Akuma player in 3s would? I never said Akuma was a zoning-based character. I said he was an example that zoning absolutely exists in 3s. Is it as powerful as it is in ST or SFIV? No.
If you hate 3s, fine. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to not like it. I can even understand not liking parry, I really can. Just don't come into a 3s thread and spout off Viscant quotes when you don't play and/or understand the game at a high level. Go back to the SSF4 thread and have all the fun you want.
On July 13 2011 11:06 hotbreakfest wrote: Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
So the fact that Guile throws horizontal projectiles and reacts to his opponent's reaction makes it zoning? Or is it that he throws more projectiles than an Akuma player in 3s would? I never said Akuma was a zoning-based character. I said he was an example that zoning absolutely exists in 3s. Is it as powerful as it is in ST or SFIV? No.
If you hate 3s, fine. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to not like it. I can even understand not liking parry, I really can. Just don't come into a 3s thread and spout off Viscant quotes when you don't play and/or understand the game at a high level. Go back to the SSF4 thread and have all the fun you want.
Yes, that is zoning. Zoning is not something you switch on and off. You can't even see the positioning game that the guile player is playing. Throwing a fireball for the sake of throwing a fireball at nearly pointblank range is NOT zoning. Again you closed your eyes, covered your ears, and shouted "NO!! YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND 3S!!!". 3S is a dumb hit confirm game, just like Jojo's and CVS2 (I love both of them). You have yet to disprove my claims otherwise. For the record I don't like bland games like SSF4.
hotbreakfast, i don't care whether its balanced or not, I'm gonna play Hugo and not give a fuck, but I do know that if you were flaming in the same way in a Starcraft thread then you would just get banned for balance whining. So you can stop now.
On July 13 2011 11:34 seaofsaturn wrote: hotbreakfast, i don't care whether its balanced or not, I'm gonna play Hugo and not give a fuck, but I do know that if you were flaming in the same way in a Starcraft thread then you would just get banned for balance whining. So you can stop now.
I'm not whining about balance. MvC2 is my favorite fighting game off all time and you don't see me or any other marvel heads claiming it's balanced. I just find it silly that there are some 3S players who keep claiming their game as balanced, because nothing can be wrong with 3S. It's the most perfect game in the world and nothing can be wrong with it!
On July 13 2011 11:37 FACENC wrote: Yeah, it is obvious neither of us is going to change the other's minds. 3s is dope. Play it when it comes out.
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmE2lkYgpcw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwpps4CvwY
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
On July 13 2011 08:47 Wangsta wrote: @hotbreakfast
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
I never said 2MK -> SA2 is everything that makes her stupid, but it's one of the reasons. The only problem is you claim that your Chun requires so much execution to play well, which is absolutely laughable. Chun is a character with the best footsies and her normals are incredibly difficult to punish, all while having dumb grab range due to her kara throw. I already said earlier that I play 3S, and I've watched so much of it that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Sorry, but 3S isn't balanced because an 8:2 matchup is still an 8:2 matchup. I'll let this guy from SRK say it for me:
Your idea of zoning is dated. Guile throwing projectiles, which forces the opponent to jump over them (because there are no options), makes it an easy simon-says of throw projectile, punish jump-in, repeat. You just don't understand 3s zoning, the game is probably too fast for you or something.
Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent.
The majority of parries you'll see are either option selects or on-reaction to jump-ins/while playing footsies. There are just as many 50/50s in SF4 or whatever, because of meaty moves. And "all the work" of getting to your opponent in 3s is pressing up and forward at the same time, parrying or stuffing their anti-air (yes it's a 50/50 deal with it, at least there are other options than jump over fireball get shoryukened).
3rd strike operates on different fundamentals. It's a completely different game, don't try to compare it to sf2/4. Mixups are not a "fuck fundamentals reward" if you have proper 3rd strike fundamentals, which include (among a million other things that sf2/4 fundamentals don't have) recognizing patterns and option-selecting to beat the most likely moves your opponent will throw out.
On July 13 2011 08:43 hotbreakfest wrote:Great, but you haven't debunked the fact that high level 3S play is nothing more than a hit confirm into super. What kind of character archtypes do parries introduce? All I see are people playing a frantic footsie game while whiffing normals to build meter for their super, then option selecting throws and parries when they get close. For the record I do play 3S, I don't claim to be good or anything, but I just find it silly that people consider it a godsend to fighting games. 3S throws traditional 2D fundamentals out the window, while being dumbed down version of it's "3D counterparts". I don't see Match or Kuroda throwing many fireballs for zoning. Zoning isn't a switch that you turn on and off during a match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmE2lkYgpcw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwpps4CvwY
Akuma uses his Air firbeball as a zoning tool. It is used multiple times in those videos for that exact purpose. It is most often used after knocking the opponent down in the corner. The Akuma player stands just past the clock and throws an air hadou. This is (generally) unpunishable and requires a reaction of some sort from the opponent, even if that reaction is to block. Off of this reaction, the Akuma player can run offense. If they blocked, you can use the hadou as a tick to dash in and throw. If you take one step forward, you can go for twd+mp overhead. If you have done twd+mp a few times and trained your opponent to block it, you can go for kara-demon (assuming you have meters obviously).
Also, just because you don't seem to like parry doesn't mean you can exclude parry from the mind-game discussion. All parries are not guesses. A character like Makoto is obviously a new character archetype. A hyper fast grappler with unsafe specials that focuses almost completely and solely on stun and screen positioning.
Pro-tip: Makoto can only do her 100% stun combo if she grabs you on her side of the clock. Now, knowing this, how can the Makoto player accomplish this screen positioning if zoning doesn't exist. SA2 Makoto doesn't rely on hit-confirming at all. So every time she is pressing a button, it is either to move you onto a specific area of the screen, or it is a tick-into throw. If the Makoto is pressing buttons otherwise, they are bad.
Also, to the complaint of whiffing normals for meter. There is a really, really easy way to stop this. Walk forward. You get close enough, they stop pressing buttons.
Sorry man, but akuma tossing a couple fireballs does not count as zoning. Again training your opponent to block 6MP and then going for the kara-demon is nothing more than "AHA! I surprised you!" type of mind games which are incredibly basic and shallow. Yes, parries are guesses. Anything that forces 50/50 mixups is guessing. Mixups are a "fuck fundamentals reward" for all the work you did trying get in on your opponent. Makoto is not a new archtype, she is a mixup based rushdown character with grappling capabilities to aid in her mixup game. Whiffing normals for meter is idiotic, it doesn't matter if it's super easy to stop. You should only be rewarded meter for landing hits on your opponents, whether its from combos, pokes, projectiles, or blockstrings. This is an example of real zoning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E25dPXwNqM&feature=related
On July 13 2011 08:47 Wangsta wrote: @hotbreakfast
if you think cr.mk -> SA2 is enough to make chun god tier then you have no clue. it is very hard to play chun at a level that makes her high tier. hitconfirms are just one small aspect of her game, you need to learn a lot more otherwise you'll never scare people enough to make them get actually hit by it. you are free to try chun when 3s:online comes out and get owned by the "mid-tier" characters that supposedly suck
anyway, 3s is balanced enough that every character has a chance. its obviously not pure luck that gives players wins, theres a reason why the same people keep dominating. also, unlike AE, you don't have matchups like, say akuma/chun vs zangief, or twins/rufus vs dhalsim, etc. where one character is just totally screwed. id gladly take a matchup like oro vs chun or 12 vs ken in 3s over some bullshit like dhalsim vs yun
I never said 2MK -> SA2 is everything that makes her stupid, but it's one of the reasons. The only problem is you claim that your Chun requires so much execution to play well, which is absolutely laughable. Chun is a character with the best footsies and her normals are incredibly difficult to punish, all while having dumb grab range due to her kara throw. I already said earlier that I play 3S, and I've watched so much of it that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Sorry, but 3S isn't balanced because an 8:2 matchup is still an 8:2 matchup. I'll let this guy from SRK say it for me:
Your idea of zoning is dated. Guile throwing projectiles, which forces the opponent to jump over them (because there are no options), makes it an easy simon-says of throw projectile, punish jump-in, repeat. You just don't understand 3s zoning, the game is probably too fast for you or something.
Sorry, there is no long range zoning in 3S. The whole point of zoning is to limit your opponents options. If you can't see the positioning game the Guile is playing, then I can't force you to understand. Parries remove trapping as a legit strategy. Yeah, maybe I'll just go back to MvC2 because 3S is just too fast for me.
I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
On July 13 2011 11:49 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like how I'm a loony for thinking 3s is balanced, wew I'm not even going to bother with a counter because you're clearly not going to change your mind.
Bottom line is that its awesome. Now if only RX didn't choke against Makoto's
Bottom line is that capcom has never made a balanced game.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/feIHH.jpg)
