On October 29 2012 10:18 O-ops wrote: I'm saying, the recent tourney chart is stacked against vortexers. Lots of characters have so-and-so who's godlike with them in the states and has a legit shot at taking top 8 at any tourney they enter, but not vortex char. I'm not familiar about Europe or Japan but i assume it's the same thing in Europe and Japan seems like they just have like a group of 8 players that win everything regardless of characters. It's pretty funny how a lot of names that became big in street fighters 4 recently all played character with massive shenanigans. Xian, Infiltration, Poongko, WolfKrone, Latif, Humanbomb, Kazunoko, Eita, the new Sako, and the plethora of Yuns and Yangs. Except for Xian and HumanBomb I don't think I have ever NOT seen a game with those players where i just had my eyebrows raised from them winning with 2 hard knockdowns after the other guy outplayed them for half the round.
And why are people speaking like team dynamics and assist/batterry characters don't exist in Marvel? Even the changing the assist on the same character can change gameplay. You got however many team combinations that's viable nowdays and the occasional Spiderman or Modok or Cap and that's somehow not diverse enough? Every characters may not have the same one touch kills bullshit but sure enough you can make it so that every team has that ability, or whatever other flavor you want.
Like Gee whiz, I wish i could have another character with godlike walkspeed, good fireball, 3f DP, teleport, good normals, and a godlike vortex to choose from in this game.
You're acting like a lot of SF characters don't have strong points?
Seems like you don't realize the difference between 100k combinations and 39 combinations, but feel free to try to survive for even a second with someone like Iron Fist against a Magneto point or something like that.
Building a team in UMVC3 doesn't take as much thought as you'd think. We have Zero who can 100% -> 0% every single member of the cast if he just lands one hit, at any part of the screen, and it doesn't even matter what kind of a hit it is. His best assist is Jam Session. Dante comboes with Vergil incredibly well, Vergil is the best anchor in the game. Well that's a good team.
Actually, which teams do you think are better than 5-5 against Zero-Dante-Vergil? Maybe some MorriDoom one? Out of 100k combinations? That's balanced? For comparison, if Zero-Dante-Vergil was to be as balanced as Cammy in SF4 they'd need to be worse than 5-5 against around 4000 team combinations.
Also that's like saying Seth has every option in the game and you can't do anything against it. Seth even has a command throw, Akuma doesn't. Just completely ignore the fact that he dies if you blow at him. Akuma gets stunned in 2 comboes and Teleport can be countered.
Here's a question by the way: Dee Jay has a very powerful Vortex, why isn't he top tier?
So who did WhiteGun get defeated by? Did he keep dropping comboes / did he choke? He looked so promising.
I really hope he does go to more tournaments and maybe controls his nerves better or something. Anyone who can do this at 3:52 off a focus has my utmost respect: + Show Spoiler +
On October 29 2012 11:34 Shikyo wrote: Well sigh I guess I'll rather not bother arguing.
So who did WhiteGun get defeated by? Did he keep dropping comboes / did he choke? He looked so promising.
I really hope he does go to more tournaments and maybe controls his nerves better or something. Anyone who can do this at 3:52 off a focus has my utmost respect: + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKd-4oUavnM
this happened lol (hmm time link doesn't work? go to 2 hour 6 mins for his match)
Like, there's a reason people literally stopped playing 1/3 to half the cast in competitive play. The difference in potential is glaring when you have two players with similar skill level and at the apex of their respective character's masteries playing against each other. Look at Fchamp vs Infiltration both days lol. One jump in, done.
People always goes "But...but they all die to two combos". So what? the opposite is also true, they have enough damage to stun people in 2 combos too and they have like 10x more way to get the hit in. Meanwhile, you're sitting there taking free damage because they either have good normals for footsies, good fireballs for zoning, or something similar to Viper air burn kick crossups. They also have good wakeup options too.
This might not be entirely accurate, but you can see some very respectable names as contributors to some characters there(Alioune cammy very notably).
Note Cammys average matchup strenght is around 5.55 - 4.45. Dan's is around 4.45 - 5.55. If you ask me, that's incredibly balanced.
Also about the team tournament I'm guessing it'll be an Infiltration vs 5 and I wonder if Japan can beat him.
From Chun downward i can only call out 1-2 good players that play those characters that actually did something sometimes every since 2012 for like 5 of them. In fact, i can only recall off the top of my head the last time they actually appears on stream for just about as many characters. That Dee Jay stat? Probably from Supers (Viscant as contributor LOL). There's a pretty good reason why people don't play those characters, and it's because they're ass. When push comes to shove you ain't gonna win shit. Game's relatively balanced but don't throw charts out there and says it's a 5-5 matchup for everyone lol.
The data for a good third of the cast is like Supers old because no one ever plays them anymore, and many people that gave contributions for those characters are quite frankly B-tier pros.
I've personally don't know a lot about that specific team but i've seen enough people doing well against one or two of them at at time, i don't think it's that bad. There's a bunch of other characters with good lvl3 xfactor and mixups too lol, all of them possess some kind of bullshit that made it just as bad. I'll concede that offensively Zero is probably the best but you're underestimating the chance of getting hit by something random in marvel. And in marvel, random hit hurts. Or it could kill squishy ass ppl like Zero.
I'll end it here. I'm just calling out bullshit the way i see it, when Champ played so well for so long and then Infiltration won because he gets a jump in with Akuma it's fucking bullshit.
Here's a question by the way: Dee Jay has a very powerful Vortex, why isn't he top tier?
Because Dee jay's vortex is actually pretty ass?
Dee Jay's vortex is limited, but can still be effective. Dee Jay's wakeup and ability to deal with pressure is terrible, his options are mostly bad and situational, and that's what sinks him more than anything.
Isn't SF a game that comes down to who has the best options?
Anyways, every one of my posts should come with a possibly-made-a-stupid-bet-look-at-all-the-salt tag. Made it all back and then some on the finals, though XD FUCK KOREA YEAHHHHH (Seriously, though... I KNEW Infiltration couldn't carry them ALL THE WAY)
Like, there's a reason people literally stopped playing 1/3 to half the cast in competitive play. The difference in potential is glaring when you have two players with similar skill level and at the apex of their respective character's masteries playing against each other. Look at Fchamp vs Infiltration both days lol. One jump in, done.
People always goes "But...but they all die to two combos". So what? the opposite is also true, they have enough damage to stun people in 2 combos too and they have like 10x more way to get the hit in. Meanwhile, you're sitting there taking free damage because they either have good normals for footsies, good fireballs for zoning, or something similar to Viper air burn kick crossups. They also have good wakeup options too.
This might not be entirely accurate, but you can see some very respectable names as contributors to some characters there(Alioune cammy very notably).
Note Cammys average matchup strenght is around 5.55 - 4.45. Dan's is around 4.45 - 5.55. If you ask me, that's incredibly balanced.
Also about the team tournament I'm guessing it'll be an Infiltration vs 5 and I wonder if Japan can beat him.
From Chun downward i can only call out 1-2 good players that play those characters that actually did something sometimes every since 2012 for like 5 of them. In fact, i can only recall off the top of my head the last time they actually appears on stream for just about as many characters. That Dee Jay stat? Probably from Supers (Viscant as contributor LOL). There's a pretty good reason why people don't play those characters, and it's because they're ass. When push comes to shove you ain't gonna win shit. Game's relatively balanced but don't throw charts out there and says it's a 5-5 matchup for everyone lol.
The data for a good third of the cast is like Supers old because no one ever plays them anymore, and many people that gave contributions for those characters are quite frankly B-tier pros.
I've personally don't know a lot about that specific team but i've seen enough people doing well against one or two of them at at time, i don't think it's that bad. There's a bunch of other characters with good lvl3 xfactor and mixups too lol, all of them possess some kind of bullshit that made it just as bad. I'll concede that offensively Zero is probably the best but you're underestimating the chance of getting hit by something random in marvel. And in marvel, random hit hurts. Or it could kill squishy ass ppl like Zero.
I'll end it here. I'm just calling out bullshit the way i see it, when Champ played so well for so long and then Infiltration won because he gets a jump in with Akuma it's fucking bullshit.
For the record, I totally agree with you here. I personally just don't see it being much different than Marvel, in that aspect. In Marvel there may be more styles of play which lead to this dominating win, but the momentum and "one small event causing a huge waterfall of damage" are similar to me. And in my opinion there are way fewer characters in AE that can actually capitalize on this compared to characters/teams in Marvel that can. In fact, I feel like if X-factor didn't exist, Marvel would be even more one-sided like this (not that I'm supporting the concept of X-factor LOL. Just never thought I'd be giving it a nod.........)
However, all of that definitely doesn't discount the fact that these characters are pretty bullshit right now, I agree. To me it's just the way the games both are right now, and all things considered, even with this wave of AE vortex domination, I still find both games to be incredibly balanced as fighters. It's really all relative.
I'm pretty bummed I missed the shenanigans last night hahahaha. Godddddd Fchamp..
So let's take the case of getting off a clean jumpin with full meter for some characters and see what it accomplishes :
Abel: cr.HP into ultra or super. 517 dmg with ultra, 457 with super.
Cammy: ultra or combo into super. Super 465 damage ultra 484. 520 damage with Ex Can of Sprite infinite into ultra.
Ryu: 480 with super. 491 with ultra.
Gen: 650++ with ultra not sure about the optimal combo, 500+ without ultra
Ibuki: 400+ without meter, 500+ with super
Oni: 550 damage
Evil Ryu: 504
Dhalsim: 504 with super
Sakura: 568 with combo into ultra2
Akuma: 477 with HP SRK finisher, 459 with sweep finisher
Comboes for characters not Akuma weren't really optimal, I didn't want to learn 1 frame links and stuff.
... Jumpin attacks are powerful.
Also complaining about that aspect of akuma vs Dhalsim is silly, Dhalsim is dead when hes cornered / caught against like half the cast.
Evil Ryu has a similiar, even more damaging vortex against Dhalsim(into hard knockdowns), has a midmap unblockable against Dhalsim, deals 400 damage into knockdown using half a bar off cr.MK, and the matchup is in Dhalsims favor.
This honestly reminds me of people complaining about Ibukis Kunai Vortex when you can just focus dash out of it against 99% of the players and the ones who counter that properly are really really good.
EPT
can't watch
