On July 21 2012 08:22 Wasteland wrote: good viper stuff
I don't really understand why you would opt for a fierce TK cancel when doing FFF over a medium TK cancel. When I was doing FFF in training mode I was way way more successful using MP TK for two reasons: 1) if you can't cancel HP TK fast enough and your spacing is incorrect, you whiff it and get punished, and 2) the timing for canceling MP TK is fairly lenient and still allows you to link the second fierce. Is it that much easier due to the faster cancel of the HP TK?
On July 20 2012 01:44 DwD wrote: So I've had SSF4 for the PS3 for a while but I never really got into it which was my intention after I watched EVO2011. I bought a stick but I never really liked the feel off it so I just ended up selling it. Now I picked up AE on the steam sale and got myself a Madcatz SSF4 Fightpad and I really like it so far. I'm just curious on how to play to become somewhat decent? I don't wanna be the next Daigo but I wanna be able to win like 50% of games online or something. I really like Viper after watching Kayopolice at EVO2011 so I've kinda started to learn all the moves etc. Any advice on how to improve? Other than play play play I've been trying to figure out how to cancel but I just don't understand it. The command list for example seismic I think it's something like move + light punch to cancel but I'm never able to cancel it and she just does the move. Any guide or anything would be great
I play viper. She is absolutely hard to play and even if you mess up once, you'll be REALLY hating yourself.
As for cancels, it is very unintuitive at first. What you do is say with QCB+mp, you tap TWO punch buttons at the same time. It will feint. The timing is tough. I would start with doing QCB+LP then P+P. The gap in the frame to cancel is pretty wide with lp, and gets narrower as you move to mp and fp.
I concur with the poster who said you should pick other character than viper. She really has to commit, it's hard to react, her normals are awful and is really a unique character. Since you're asking i'll chip in my advice. I don't think you really need to be technically sound to have fun and win games with viper. Viper is a scrub killer, and most of the time on 360, you'll be facing people who don't know WTF they are doing. Note that it's been a year and a half since i played on xbox live, the competition might be tougher.
You can get to at least 2500 PP with these strats:
-don't do anything fancy yet. Her FFF combo, jump cancel ultra, and dash cancel ultra are awesome, you're going to have to hit training mode constantly just to even stay fresh, that's a warning! This character really requires practice, but to be decent with her, those aren't needed yet to get to 2500 PP. Learn to move with her first, it's a totally different and difficult experience. You can't land combos if you can't move, aka learn your footises. You will lose to people who are garbage even if you are a better player.
-Learn her instant air burnkick. It's great for mixups especially after a hard knockdown. just walk up to the guy and do the HK version. Many people's reaction to this is to throw or DP or block. burnkick beats throw, you get to the other side if he DPs, and if he blocks the regular intuitive way, then he isn't blocking because he has to block on the other side.
What counters this? it's character specific, but you'll see smart shotokans doing c.mk. If you know they'll do this, then go for a counter hit combo or throw them.
-jump lk then cancel into burn kick at people. It looks like you'll land and be vulnerable to a throw. remember that burn kick blows up people who love throwing.
-learn her instant super jump burn kick. It's angles must be learned because it's kind of wonky. You can cross people up with this too
-After her forward throw, what you can do is walk a bit forward, then super jump towards your opponent. As they rise, you can get a mix up - You can go for a burn kick which hits on the otherside, or just HK for a free combo. Your opponents have to know how to fight viper to exploit this. shoto c.mk beats burnkick, but naked HK beats c.mk. I like to metagame my opponents and I don't walk up a little to angle myself, i just like to superjump towards them after the throw and then do a burning kick. I do this to pretend i'm still on week 5 sf4 2009 technology :-) .
-just jumping/super jumping and doing LK burning kick does wonders to her awkward footsie game. It can mess with your opponent's expectations of where you should land, and it should open up the game against someone who's playing solid D.
everything i told you doesn't really need gosu execution imo. If you want to learn viper, watch recent Latif and Wolfkrone videos. If you want to get over 50%, you cannot make mistakes. Sometimes you have to break out of your shell and be fancy to improve, but even a small mistake such as missing your feint cancel off a normal into an EX is a dramatic one. She needs meter, health, and positioning. If she gets knocked down, sure she has options to get out of pressure, but if you guess wrong there, its ggpo for you
How good is 2500 PP by the way?
I just started playing against actual people after a bit less than a week in the training mode and I apparently am playing vs 2000-3000 PP players and they really really suck. However I still lose vs them usually, I'd say because I cannot execute commands in an actual game as well as I can in the training hall and also because I don't know the matchups.
However, in that PP range the players will generally just spam a few skills, have extremely predictable wakeup game, etc. I guess it's still apparent they've played the game for a long time but... (As an example this one 3000 PP player just grabbed every time I missed an uppercut, grabbed as a reversal if I wasn't jumping at him with an aerial, always did the same jump kick -> low attack combo, very obvious crossups etc. I really wish I didn't need to think about what to do because that shit is super easy to counter if I could play with reflexes)
Of course this is PC, I guess PC players suck? Because these players honestly seem really really bad.
PC players are generally worse for several reasons. The game's been out on console longer and so more of the hardcore players play on console. The game's been recently discounted a couple of times which pulls in new players, many of whom are still learning the game. Finally, some of the new players are going to be playing on keyboard, most of whom are probably using the default key layout which is horrible and makes things more difficult for them. This is invariably going to result in some degree of rating inflation, at least in the short term. I'd estimate that a PC player of middling skill will be about 500-1000 PP higher than if he played on console.
On July 21 2012 08:22 Wasteland wrote: good viper stuff
I don't really understand why you would opt for a fierce TK cancel when doing FFF over a medium TK cancel. When I was doing FFF in training mode I was way way more successful using MP TK for two reasons: 1) if you can't cancel HP TK fast enough and your spacing is incorrect, you whiff it and get punished, and 2) the timing for canceling MP TK is fairly lenient and still allows you to link the second fierce. Is it that much easier due to the faster cancel of the HP TK?
More time for second fierce (HP TK has less recovery) and you can negative edge it
On a completely unrelated note, Oni st.HP beats EX Cannon Spike clean, timing for that is pretty tight though otherwise it's a trade(This also means it beats every other AtG clean unless you can think of something with more priority).
On July 21 2012 08:22 Wasteland wrote: good viper stuff
I don't really understand why you would opt for a fierce TK cancel when doing FFF over a medium TK cancel. When I was doing FFF in training mode I was way way more successful using MP TK for two reasons: 1) if you can't cancel HP TK fast enough and your spacing is incorrect, you whiff it and get punished, and 2) the timing for canceling MP TK is fairly lenient and still allows you to link the second fierce. Is it that much easier due to the faster cancel of the HP TK?
More time for second fierce (HP TK has less recovery) and you can negative edge it
This is why. The negative edge helps my muscle memory with a sort of rhythm I suppose, so that's the only reason I prefer it. In fact I don't use negative edge anywhere else. Honestly, I wasn't aware you could do FFF without a fierce feint, I thought there were too many recovery frames on strong feint. The negative edge is the main reason, either way. That timing/rhythm helps me stay successful without having the luxuries of plinking or double tapping in normal link situations.
On July 21 2012 09:20 Shikyo wrote: On a completely unrelated note, Oni st.HP beats EX Cannon Spike clean, timing for that is pretty tight though otherwise it's a trade(This also means it beats every other AtG clean unless you can think of something with more priority).
Priority has nothing to do with it, it's all about hitboxes. Try a move that has a hitbox extending far beyond the hurtbox of the character, such as Sakura j.hp which stuffs or trades with almost every antiair in the game.
On July 21 2012 09:20 Shikyo wrote: On a completely unrelated note, Oni st.HP beats EX Cannon Spike clean, timing for that is pretty tight though otherwise it's a trade(This also means it beats every other AtG clean unless you can think of something with more priority).
Priority has nothing to do with it, it's all about hitboxes. Try a move that has a hitbox extending far beyond the hurtbox of the character, such as Sakura j.hp which stuffs or trades with almost every antiair in the game.
Priority is what I mean with that, it feels dumb to say "hitbox to hurtbox ratio" instead of priority especially when the realworld meaning of the word "priority" matches.
11 first tries beat it clean whereas with Cammy the timing was some frames
It beats Crimson Viper's Burning Kick HK, both aerial and ground, clean. Rofl what? That thing even has the most retarded hitbox ever.
shikyo... you can jab cammy out of cannon strike. it's about timing though, and the risk : reward is pretty heavy in cammy's favor on that one. the second i get beat out by a large normal like oni's s.hp im never gonna give you that angle again lol
i might even bait you into hitting the button and do the ex strike a little lower so i get a counterhit!
On July 21 2012 09:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: shikyo... you can jab cammy out of cannon strike. it's about timing though, and the risk : reward is pretty heavy in cammy's favor on that one. the second i get beat out by a large normal like oni's s.hp im never gonna give you that angle again lol
i might even bait you into hitting the button and do the ex strike a little lower so i get a counterhit!
Yeah I know you can interrupt with a jab but that's from the side, you need to really fuck that spike up so that it wouldn't even land if I did nothing. My point just is that apparently that move beats every single aerial attack from that angle, I really need to start spamming it more.
I kind of wonder though, does Oni have many openings against the air that aren't covered by s.HP and c.HP? Both seem to beat everything. That might be an overlooked aspect of him. I really wish he had easier crossups after knockdown, though...
Seismo chains are the act of rapidly canceling each seismo into a SJ, into another seismo. This allows for a lot of ground pressure, and if you weave ex-seismo's in, a substantial amount of unavoidable chip damage (You cannot jump out of it if you seismo xx ex-seismo xx seismo, I believe. You CAN, however, jump, and punish, non-ex seismo chains). You should, perhaps, not use regular seismo if you cannot cancel it. It is insanely unsafe without canceling. Input: Forward > Down > Downfoward + p > Forward > Down > Downforward > Forward > Upforward + P
seismo xx ex seismo has 2 frame gap that you cant jump out of, ex seismo xx seismo can easily be jumped out of. Being able to cancel seismo into a feint doesn't make seismo any more safe. You need to hit (or make them block) a seismo in order to SJC cancel and thus go into a feint. If you hit/make them block its already safe unless youre trying to jab seismo somebody <1/4 screen away from you which isnt generally done. Doing seismo into a feint is purely to give yourself more options afterwards like seismo into feint into dash forward to gain ground, whereas with no feint after a 3/4 screen seismo your opponent has 18 frames to make moves in while you just stand there unable to threaten in any way. Also dont get me wrong, 18 frames is reasonably negative on block, but when you consider 99% of non-ex seismos are done when the opponents more than half a screen away theres not too much that can cross that space in any meaningful way before youre fine. Some ultras may be able to like say Ryus U1, ive never tested it and never really seen it come up in an actual match (any kind of punish to a long range viper not feinting after a blocked seismo). Theres some im almost 100% would work but again, ive just never really seen it ever occur. The real danger of seismo is the slow as hell startup combined with the awful recovery, not purely the recovery. If you seismo at the wrong time, youre pretty much dead, but its hardly any different to Ryu fireballing at the wrong time.
Edit: I guess a good way to put it is that Seismo is insanely minus on block, but being really negative on block does not always equate to being really unsafe once distance is involved.
Seismo chains are the act of rapidly canceling each seismo into a SJ, into another seismo. This allows for a lot of ground pressure, and if you weave ex-seismo's in, a substantial amount of unavoidable chip damage (You cannot jump out of it if you seismo xx ex-seismo xx seismo, I believe. You CAN, however, jump, and punish, non-ex seismo chains). You should, perhaps, not use regular seismo if you cannot cancel it. It is insanely unsafe without canceling. Input: Forward > Down > Downfoward + p > Forward > Down > Downforward > Forward > Upforward + P
seismo xx ex seismo has 2 frame gap that you cant jump out of, ex seismo xx seismo can easily be jumped out of. Being able to cancel seismo into a feint doesn't make seismo any more safe. You need to hit (or make them block) a seismo in order to SJC cancel and thus go into a feint. If you hit/make them block its already safe unless youre trying to jab seismo somebody <1/4 screen away from you which isnt generally done. Doing seismo into a feint is purely to give yourself more options afterwards like seismo into feint into dash forward to gain ground, whereas with no feint after a 3/4 screen seismo your opponent has 18 frames to make moves in while you just stand there unable to threaten in any way. Also dont get me wrong, 18 frames is reasonably negative on block, but when you consider 99% of non-ex seismos are done when the opponents more than half a screen away theres not too much that can cross that space in any meaningful way before youre fine. Some ultras may be able to like say Ryus U1, ive never tested it and never really seen it come up in an actual match (any kind of punish to a long range viper not feinting after a blocked seismo). Theres some im almost 100% would work but again, ive just never really seen it ever occur. The real danger of seismo is the slow as hell startup combined with the awful recovery, not purely the recovery. If you seismo at the wrong time, youre pretty much dead, but its hardly any different to Ryu fireballing at the wrong time.
Edit: I guess a good way to put it is that Seismo is insanely minus on block, but being really negative on block does not always equate to being really unsafe once distance is involved.
I believe this concept is referred to as "pushback"
Oh and EX-Seismo is possibly the best special ever.
Seismo chains are the act of rapidly canceling each seismo into a SJ, into another seismo. This allows for a lot of ground pressure, and if you weave ex-seismo's in, a substantial amount of unavoidable chip damage (You cannot jump out of it if you seismo xx ex-seismo xx seismo, I believe. You CAN, however, jump, and punish, non-ex seismo chains). You should, perhaps, not use regular seismo if you cannot cancel it. It is insanely unsafe without canceling. Input: Forward > Down > Downfoward + p > Forward > Down > Downforward > Forward > Upforward + P
seismo xx ex seismo has 2 frame gap that you cant jump out of, ex seismo xx seismo can easily be jumped out of. Being able to cancel seismo into a feint doesn't make seismo any more safe. You need to hit (or make them block) a seismo in order to SJC cancel and thus go into a feint. If you hit/make them block its already safe unless youre trying to jab seismo somebody <1/4 screen away from you which isnt generally done. Doing seismo into a feint is purely to give yourself more options afterwards like seismo into feint into dash forward to gain ground, whereas with no feint after a 3/4 screen seismo your opponent has 18 frames to make moves in while you just stand there unable to threaten in any way. Also dont get me wrong, 18 frames is reasonably negative on block, but when you consider 99% of non-ex seismos are done when the opponents more than half a screen away theres not too much that can cross that space in any meaningful way before youre fine. Some ultras may be able to like say Ryus U1, ive never tested it and never really seen it come up in an actual match (any kind of punish to a long range viper not feinting after a blocked seismo). Theres some im almost 100% would work but again, ive just never really seen it ever occur. The real danger of seismo is the slow as hell startup combined with the awful recovery, not purely the recovery. If you seismo at the wrong time, youre pretty much dead, but its hardly any different to Ryu fireballing at the wrong time.
Edit: I guess a good way to put it is that Seismo is insanely minus on block, but being really negative on block does not always equate to being really unsafe once distance is involved.
I suppose I neglected to contextualize when to use the seismo chain I had mentioned. Mostly I was trying to talk about seismo as oki, where you can be guaranteed a hit. You're absolutely right with everything about seismo, though, and in my perspective that rings incredibly true when you use seismo for zoning rather than applying outright pressure. Although, seismos as a zoning tool are definitely the more tricky aspect of using them. One mistimed seismo that doesn't connect, thus no feint, means a lot of potential jump-in damage.
Seismo chains are the act of rapidly canceling each seismo into a SJ, into another seismo. This allows for a lot of ground pressure, and if you weave ex-seismo's in, a substantial amount of unavoidable chip damage (You cannot jump out of it if you seismo xx ex-seismo xx seismo, I believe. You CAN, however, jump, and punish, non-ex seismo chains). You should, perhaps, not use regular seismo if you cannot cancel it. It is insanely unsafe without canceling. Input: Forward > Down > Downfoward + p > Forward > Down > Downforward > Forward > Upforward + P
seismo xx ex seismo has 2 frame gap that you cant jump out of, ex seismo xx seismo can easily be jumped out of. Being able to cancel seismo into a feint doesn't make seismo any more safe. You need to hit (or make them block) a seismo in order to SJC cancel and thus go into a feint. If you hit/make them block its already safe unless youre trying to jab seismo somebody <1/4 screen away from you which isnt generally done. Doing seismo into a feint is purely to give yourself more options afterwards like seismo into feint into dash forward to gain ground, whereas with no feint after a 3/4 screen seismo your opponent has 18 frames to make moves in while you just stand there unable to threaten in any way. Also dont get me wrong, 18 frames is reasonably negative on block, but when you consider 99% of non-ex seismos are done when the opponents more than half a screen away theres not too much that can cross that space in any meaningful way before youre fine. Some ultras may be able to like say Ryus U1, ive never tested it and never really seen it come up in an actual match (any kind of punish to a long range viper not feinting after a blocked seismo). Theres some im almost 100% would work but again, ive just never really seen it ever occur. The real danger of seismo is the slow as hell startup combined with the awful recovery, not purely the recovery. If you seismo at the wrong time, youre pretty much dead, but its hardly any different to Ryu fireballing at the wrong time.
Edit: I guess a good way to put it is that Seismo is insanely minus on block, but being really negative on block does not always equate to being really unsafe once distance is involved.
I believe this concept is referred to as "pushback"
Oh and EX-Seismo is possibly the best special ever.
The best special ever? It's good but it's got pretty bad damage and slow startup, it's good mainly because of how the rest of Viper's kit functions, on anyone else it'd be rather mediocre. I'd even rate Viper's own Aerial Burning Kick better than EX Seismo.
Thinking about it though, what special would actually be the best one in the game? If I had to pick a special move that would be overpowered on every character you put it on I'd go with (EX)Karakusa. (Like, who's the worst character in the game? Dan? Give Karakusa to Dan and suddenly his lack of hitconfirms gets compensated by mixups and if he lands a Karakusa it's an instant 400 damage.
Seismo chains are the act of rapidly canceling each seismo into a SJ, into another seismo. This allows for a lot of ground pressure, and if you weave ex-seismo's in, a substantial amount of unavoidable chip damage (You cannot jump out of it if you seismo xx ex-seismo xx seismo, I believe. You CAN, however, jump, and punish, non-ex seismo chains). You should, perhaps, not use regular seismo if you cannot cancel it. It is insanely unsafe without canceling. Input: Forward > Down > Downfoward + p > Forward > Down > Downforward > Forward > Upforward + P
seismo xx ex seismo has 2 frame gap that you cant jump out of, ex seismo xx seismo can easily be jumped out of. Being able to cancel seismo into a feint doesn't make seismo any more safe. You need to hit (or make them block) a seismo in order to SJC cancel and thus go into a feint. If you hit/make them block its already safe unless youre trying to jab seismo somebody <1/4 screen away from you which isnt generally done. Doing seismo into a feint is purely to give yourself more options afterwards like seismo into feint into dash forward to gain ground, whereas with no feint after a 3/4 screen seismo your opponent has 18 frames to make moves in while you just stand there unable to threaten in any way. Also dont get me wrong, 18 frames is reasonably negative on block, but when you consider 99% of non-ex seismos are done when the opponents more than half a screen away theres not too much that can cross that space in any meaningful way before youre fine. Some ultras may be able to like say Ryus U1, ive never tested it and never really seen it come up in an actual match (any kind of punish to a long range viper not feinting after a blocked seismo). Theres some im almost 100% would work but again, ive just never really seen it ever occur. The real danger of seismo is the slow as hell startup combined with the awful recovery, not purely the recovery. If you seismo at the wrong time, youre pretty much dead, but its hardly any different to Ryu fireballing at the wrong time.
Edit: I guess a good way to put it is that Seismo is insanely minus on block, but being really negative on block does not always equate to being really unsafe once distance is involved.
I believe this concept is referred to as "pushback"
Oh and EX-Seismo is possibly the best special ever.
The best special ever? It's good but it's got pretty bad damage and slow startup, it's good mainly because of how the rest of Viper's kit functions, on anyone else it'd be rather mediocre. I'd even rate Viper's own Aerial Burning Kick better than EX Seismo.
Thinking about it though, what special would actually be the best one in the game? If I had to pick a special move that would be overpowered on every character you put it on I'd go with (EX)Karakusa. (Like, who's the worst character in the game? Dan? Give Karakusa to Dan and suddenly his lack of hitconfirms gets compensated by mixups and if he lands a Karakusa it's an instant 400 damage.
Just curious. Is there such a thing as throw range? Like different characters having different ranges on their throws. It aways feels like Ryu and Ken are grabbing me from a mile away. lol
edit nvm just googled that shit, apparently there are. Should have done that from the start
On July 22 2012 04:05 sashkata wrote: Just curious. Is there such a thing as throw range? Like different characters having different ranges on their throws. It aways feels like Ryu and Ken are grabbing me from a mile away. lol
edit nvm just googled that shit, apparently there are. Should have done that from the start
Yes there is, and also those characters have really nice Kara throws.
On July 22 2012 04:05 sashkata wrote: Just curious. Is there such a thing as throw range? Like different characters having different ranges on their throws. It aways feels like Ryu and Ken are grabbing me from a mile away. lol
edit nvm just googled that shit, apparently there are. Should have done that from the start
welcome to Ken's beautiful karathrow game, where he cancels his towards forward (aka medium kick) into a grab during the starting frames of the animation to throw you from soooooooo far away, more characters have it too, but i think ken's reaches most.
Oh yeah also, the ult counters Shoryuken smashers(if you predict correctly of course) in that they're permanently in blockstun until you let them out(or use an overhead), so instead of using an overhead it might be wiser to cancel into your counter. If you counter a H or EX Shoryuken upwards you get a full jumpin combo(these will be the ones they'll use I'd say), but even if they go with a light shoryuken you'll get a free divekick which is still 144 damage(EX Divekick would be 310 if you have 2 bars)
Oh yeah also, the ult counters Shoryuken smashers(if you predict correctly of course) in that they're permanently in blockstun until you let them out(or use an overhead), so instead of using an overhead it might be wiser to cancel into your counter. If you counter a H or EX Shoryuken upwards you get a full jumpin combo(these will be the ones they'll use I'd say), but even if they go with a light shoryuken you'll get a free divekick which is still 144 damage(EX Divekick would be 310 if you have 2 bars)
There were about 20 overheads that match, and the Makoto player blocked two of them. If you look at the part where he does block them (starts at around 4:20), the ultra only does a tiny bit of chip damage. I'm not saying feng shui engine is bad, but it can be dealt with by just blocking instead of mashing crouch tech or whatever that Makoto was doing.
EPT
