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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Also getting hit once puts you in danger of the endless resets (And getting hit by one overhead or a low is a 350-400 damage combo with no bar or alternatively multiple comboes with resets) How about 1:16 ->? She had that set won by the way, she just dropped the last combo | ||
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rwrzr
United States1980 Posts
I don't really like the idea of relying on ultra meter for most of my offense. Imo play akuma more trixy | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Then again I guess she is way too difficult to play and you need to put in like 500 hours with her to do just as well as an average shoto player(Her bnbs are all character specific for instance and to get good damage she needs to hold 1-2 buttons down while otherwise playing normally) With enough knowledge however she can have quite a bit of offense even without ultra. For an example of how good Juri can be you could try this set: An amazing bunch of matches, very entertaining also. | ||
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O-ops
United States4236 Posts
Most ultras are designed to be like this: 1) Equalize or win the round by adding a shitton of damage onto a combo or a counterhit, like ryu's u1 or viper's ultra. 2) Raw punish your opponent for doing specific things like throwing fireballs or jumping, and so scaring your opponent into not doing it. With Feng Shui you dont get none of that shit. All you get is potential for damage, and it comes with the potential of having all your shit blocked. | ||
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rwrzr
United States1980 Posts
On July 24 2012 04:41 Shikyo wrote: Wonder why no one plays Juri it was Then again I guess she is way too difficult to play and you need to put in like 500 hours with her to do just as well as an average shoto player(Her bnbs are all character specific for instance and to get good damage she needs to hold 1-2 buttons down while otherwise playing normally) With enough knowledge however she can have quite a bit of offense even without ultra. For an example of how good Juri can be you could try this set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usVNX8RsrrY An amazing bunch of matches, very entertaining also. Just my opinion, but... Having to be 100% on top of your combos, links, matchup knowledge all the time is difficult. There are more forgiving characters who accomplish a similar rushdown Also as mentioned by the other guy fengshui engine really finicky ultra. You still have to be on your game to get damage. Theoryfightercraft sure Juri is awesome. Should you main Juri? Why not! Are there 'easier' characters? Probably. EDIT: I had a revelation. We here at the Street Fighter 4 AE 2012 TeamLiquid Thread approve of your choice of Juri as your main. Please take our blessings and do not feel that need to try and justify Juri's viability.  /sarcasm | ||
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ain
Germany786 Posts
On July 24 2012 17:33 O-ops wrote: I think the problem with Feng Shui is that it's just not a reliable comeback mechanics like other ultras. For something you get primarily by taking damage, you can't afford to have your opponent to just block all the damage when you're the one having to commit first by activating your ultra. Most ultras are designed to be like this: 1) Equalize or win the round by adding a shitton of damage onto a combo or a counterhit, like ryu's u1 or viper's ultra. 2) Raw punish your opponent for doing specific things like throwing fireballs or jumping, and so scaring your opponent into not doing it. With Feng Shui you dont get none of that shit. All you get is potential for damage, and it comes with the potential of having all your shit blocked. Agreed. Feng Shui is one of the most fun yet least useful ultras in the game barring stuff like Balrogs/Hondas U2s. And even those two have niche uses where they will do guaranteed damage AND stun. She would be much better served if FSE was here super. I'd say Rose's U2 comes very close to FSE in terms of mechanics. But among other advantages she actually gets to confirm it so it's much much better. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Also I agree that she's incredibly difficult to use, it really would help if they at least made her BnB combo work on everyone. (However FSE comboes really aren't that difficult, MK MP HK cHP Pinwheel FADC MK MP HK cHP Pinwheel -> reset in the corner is pretty easy to do right off the bat apart from the FADC of course[no 1 frame or 2 frame or 3 frame links or anything, just chain combo], the main difficulty is knowing the order in which to use the attacks because certain attacks move her forward more than others.) She has a 3 frame low and an instant overhead in FSE, you're pretty psychic to block it all but then again you could just block a Viper ultra and punish her all the same. The thing is she has 2 main ways to reset, Pinwheel in the corner and the overhead during her normal combo. She can actually repeat the overhead reset a few times and if you aren't careful you're going to lose 90% right away. Also I don't think people actually even use their ultra in like over half of the games they play(from what I've played / watched). Most of them are high risk high reward. However, is the reward that high? He missed DP so I'll ultra, yay 400 damage. However you'd have dealt 400 damage off a FADC combo. What if the opponent has no openings? Then you won't use ultra. Juri however is able to create the situation herself. Also, using FSE is never a bad idea, there's only positives and nothing else. | ||
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
On July 25 2012 05:22 Shikyo wrote: Actually I think you're much better off with FSE than with Viper's ultra for example. Block Viper ultra -> nothing happens. Block FSE first attack -> endless mixup without breaks and if you get hit you take same amount / more dmg than if you got hit by Viper ultra. Hit Viper ultra -> dmg. Hit FSE -> same amount of DMG and another mixup and possibility for same amount of dmg. Oh yeah not to mention she also has numerous ways to reset after doing the combo. Also I agree that she's incredibly difficult to use, it really would help if they at least made her BnB combo work on everyone. (However FSE comboes really aren't that difficult, MK MP HK cHP Pinwheel FADC MK MP HK cHP Pinwheel -> reset in the corner is pretty easy to do right off the bat apart from the FADC of course, the main difficulty is knowing the order in which to use the attacks because certain attacks move her forward more than others.) She has a 3 frame low and an instant overhead in FSE, you're pretty psychic to block it all but then again you could just block a Viper ultra and punish her all the same. lol come on some char bias is acceptable but FSE better than viper ultra?? really? no way in hell, dont even want to argue because its so crystal clear. Vipers ultra is up there with the best ultras in the game, FSE not so much. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 25 2012 05:29 diehilde wrote: lol come on some char bias is acceptable but FSE better than viper ultra?? really? no way in hell, dont even want to argue because its so crystal clear. Vipers ultra is up there with the best ultras in the game, FSE not so much. Your last statement is exactly what I'm trying to argue against. You need a situation for Viper ultra, you create one with FSE. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
even if viper's ultra wasnt one of the best and most versatile ultras in the game, the fact that you can combo into it makes it 100x more practical. hell, juri's other ultra is superior to FSE | ||
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ohlala
Germany232 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
like viper can ultra off so many different confirms... lol | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 25 2012 05:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Fse doesnt create shit, its not hard to block overheads when theyre the only real way she can land the combo. you can dp out of it, or zone her, or just run away, and tyeres nothing extra she can do to lock you down. its just an overhead man, really shoild be more scared of a fat damage chunk tacked onto a bnb like viper can ultra off so many different confirms... lol She can also land it off, I don't know, a low? Or a crossup? It's also the perfect setup for a tick throw. Running away from it is pretty tough when you cover a screen in 3/4 seconds. It creates quite a few situations from what I've seen, in most videos FSE makes a great difference and only in like 1 case out of maybe 100 that I've seen a person blocked the entire thing and took like 200+ chip. Saying Viper can land it off a simple hit-confirm is silly, as Juri can do the exact same thing off a hitconfirm, with same amount of damage except it doesn't end after 1 burst. Assuming it's easy to block is really silly, almost like calling Seth vortex bad. It turns every low or overhead you land into a 400 damage meterless combo and you have endless mixups. Maybe someone can deal with that but I think it's not good to assume so until I've seen at least one person do so consistently. (Of course Viper ult has other good uses and as a normal ult it indeed is one of the best but you guys need to think outside the box a little, but calling FSE bad is just utterly and completely wrong) Though Juri has plenty of problems that in my opinion could be fixed (Her antiairs are pretty shit and ex pinwheel doesn't have enough invulnerability and probably starts too slowly and low kick pinwheel should be safer on block, that could be enough) but then again maybe she still has more potential. Hmm thinking about ultras it's kind of funny, Evil Ryu has pretty decent ultras but on him they both are almost worthless. Oh by the way I'm not a Juri main but we can still play if you have XB360 or PC(assuming my stick works with PC), however let me get used to my stick that I get tomorrow first. On a completely unrelated note, I need to learn the so-called double plink assuming you have 2 moves that work in a certain situation. That way I can turn this 1framer into a 3 frame link, though even with normal plinking it's working pretty well | ||
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Hanasu
United States4 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 25 2012 06:38 Hanasu wrote: Okay, assuming FSE doesn't suck - you still have to put in so much more time and effort into making it work in comparison to other characters that if I'm coming into AE2012 as a skilled fighting game player why in God's name would I pick Juri over any of the other cast unless I'm a masochist? No clue unless every time you lose against a Shoto you want to wonder to yourself "Why don't I have moves that good?" I also personally don't feel like learning all that MU-specific stuff and that's the main reason I don't play as Juri although I really like her. However there's some people who make her work pretty well, hopefully Yossan will show us something interesting next week. (Probably my #2 favorite Juri, #1 is aiaitomo because he's the only one who uses FSE optimally and has insane comboes but I guess his footsies and general gameplay aren't as solid) In other news Evil Ryu 388 damage BnB with 0 bars without jumpin ookkay~ | ||
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O-ops
United States4236 Posts
On July 25 2012 05:22 Shikyo wrote: Actually I think you're much better off with FSE than with Viper's ultra for example. Block Viper ultra -> nothing happens. Block FSE first attack -> endless mixup without breaks and if you get hit you take same amount / more dmg than if you got hit by Viper ultra. Hit Viper ultra -> dmg. Hit FSE -> same amount of DMG and another mixup and possibility for same amount of dmg. Oh yeah not to mention she also has numerous ways to reset after doing the combo. Also I agree that she's incredibly difficult to use, it really would help if they at least made her BnB combo work on everyone. (However FSE comboes really aren't that difficult, MK MP HK cHP Pinwheel FADC MK MP HK cHP Pinwheel -> reset in the corner is pretty easy to do right off the bat apart from the FADC of course[no 1 frame or 2 frame or 3 frame links or anything, just chain combo], the main difficulty is knowing the order in which to use the attacks because certain attacks move her forward more than others.) She has a 3 frame low and an instant overhead in FSE, you're pretty psychic to block it all but then again you could just block a Viper ultra and punish her all the same. The thing is she has 2 main ways to reset, Pinwheel in the corner and the overhead during her normal combo. She can actually repeat the overhead reset a few times and if you aren't careful you're going to lose 90% right away. Also I don't think people actually even use their ultra in like over half of the games they play(from what I've played / watched). Most of them are high risk high reward. However, is the reward that high? He missed DP so I'll ultra, yay 400 damage. However you'd have dealt 400 damage off a FADC combo. What if the opponent has no openings? Then you won't use ultra. Juri however is able to create the situation herself. Also, using FSE is never a bad idea, there's only positives and nothing else. In what situation exactly is blocking even an option against viper's ultra? You do it if you can confirm a move that let you combo into it, you don't do it raw lol -.- | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 25 2012 08:40 O-ops wrote: In what situation exactly is blocking even an option against viper's ultra? You do it if you can confirm a move that let you combo into it, you don't do it raw lol -.- Exactly so if you cannot confirm it you have it sitting around doing nothing whereas you can use Juri's ult even if you originally cannot land a hitconfirm like that. You can use her ultra in every single game whereas Viper can't. (Also if Viper does either a mistimed counter ultra or a wakeup ultra you can block it, also it's highly possible you just fuck up you ultra combo, thus getting punished by at least an opposing BnB punisher, even ultra. As I said, high risk high reward while FSE is all reward) | ||
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O-ops
United States4236 Posts
Playing against Juri with FSE stocked is like, playing against juri without it stocked. It gives off no pressure before you pop it because nothing is guaranteed (unless you want to spend 2 bars comboing it off a fuhajin and get your guaranteed 400 dmg payout or whatever). And when you pop it, it's either go hard or go home. You get a nice mixup opportunity, but if they block it or worse yet manage to random out a throw or an ex uppercut or just about anything they can confirm into a combo, you are done. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Also you keep saying FSE damage isn't guaranteed, which of course it isn't but the chance is really really high. Again, she has an endless mixup and an instant overhead. Many people don't pick FSE vs shotos but as you can determine the exact moment they leave blockstun you can still turn that against them. I agree that you don't get the benefit of say, opponent jumping when you have an anti-air ultra but the tradeoff is that if they don't jump you cannot land it. The damage increasers don't imo make that much of a difference because wether it's a 250 damage combo or a 400 damage combo, you don't want to get hit by it either way By the way there's some extreme examples of course like Oni ultra 2 vs Adon or M.Bison(their entire offense basically becomes impossible when Oni gets this) but even with all that I think that FSE is generally underrated. However on someone like Evil Ryu getting Ultra isn't that big of a deal, though admittably his 300 damage off max distance c.MK becomes 500 damage. However, you still don't want to Blanka Ball an Evil Ryu in either situation if he has at least 2 EX bars. | ||
pachi
Melbourne5338 Posts
Blocking wakeup / punish ultras should not be a factor because you shouldn't be doing it. No one plans wakeup ultra as part of their game plan*. If you ever mess up a punish ultra/combo into ultra its not because the ultra is bad, its that you should fix execution or use a more practical setup. If you don't have setup for landing your ultra, learn a setup for landing your ultra. *Unless you are Marn | ||
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