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On July 01 2011 23:07 Wargizmo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 10:49 obesechicken13 wrote:
Ok, so I've beaten Nightmare, and that's all I said I'd do. I'm not sure if I should finish hell. It feels kinda repetitive and monsters take a while to kill. Blessed hammer doesn't really work, neither does vengeance. It'd take three more full days for me to get through and I'm not sure if I should even though I want to. Only cookie cutter builds can do well in hell, both vengeance and hammer are great, but you need to pick one and base your entire character around it, maxing out the skill and appropriate aura/synergies etc. You can't really be a jack of all trades and expect to do well in hell.
I would disagree. A lot of people just dont gear well enough with there creative builds.
I could at level 75 complete hell with a melee sorceress, a misc zon and I could do well with a mojomancer but bosses where hard at times.
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I dunno man, blizz is super cheap and super reliable. I've never seen orb do serious damage in Hell and fire resists get really high and you lose the utility of ice blast with a pure blizz sorc. Yeah you get a decent fireball, but when you're doing 25% damage vs a 100%+ damage ice blast with freeze I'm taking blizz sorc 100%. with teleport it's pretty easy to get around all the cold immunes.
To be fair the Throne Room sucks if you get a bad roll with cold immunes, but that goes for almost all unfunded chars.
I haven't played since the big patch though so my knowledge might be a bit out dated.
On July 08 2011 07:13 Squishy-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 23:07 Wargizmo wrote:On July 01 2011 10:49 obesechicken13 wrote:
Ok, so I've beaten Nightmare, and that's all I said I'd do. I'm not sure if I should finish hell. It feels kinda repetitive and monsters take a while to kill. Blessed hammer doesn't really work, neither does vengeance. It'd take three more full days for me to get through and I'm not sure if I should even though I want to. Only cookie cutter builds can do well in hell, both vengeance and hammer are great, but you need to pick one and base your entire character around it, maxing out the skill and appropriate aura/synergies etc. You can't really be a jack of all trades and expect to do well in hell. I would disagree. A lot of people just dont gear well enough with there creative builds. I could at level 75 complete hell with a melee sorceress, a misc zon and I could do well with a mojomancer but bosses where hard at times.
If you have what ever gear you want you can make literally anything work.
With a reasonable budget a lot of characters are going to have problems in hell.
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Melee sorc is dependent on items, as is misc zon, but mojomancer can literally be naked and kill everything except bosses in seclusion. mojo is curses + corpse explode + melee. Curses and corpse explode can kill anything but bosses in seclusion naked though.
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That is a well-built character though.
I'm talking about random characters that people are just playing with and end up in hell with a skill set that does not work together.
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It is well built but it is not by any means standard, or practical. It is an odd build that you can play all the way through. That is what I was going for.
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You definitely can do well with non-standard builds in hell =]
Sorry I didn't read inside the spoiler when I quoted you so I was just making the point that you can do pretty much anything if you have the gear for it, and you need a well thought out build to succeed in hell otherwise.
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it depends on "How" you play tho
if you're playing single player, non-standard builds are kinda hard to play since gear are much harder to find plus u cant use some useful runewords that are preserved for Ladder character only
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Hell is hell on single player, no matter what build you do. You need good gear for even most standard builds imo. That's why I could never get through hell. It's just a pain
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On July 08 2011 00:40 Orpheos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 23:57 amd098 wrote:
i wouldnt do blizz/fb as both fb and blizz need lots of synergies
id go meteorb instead
max meteor, fire mastery, fireball
max frozen orb, points into ice mastery up till it gives -100%
1 pt teleport, warmth, static field, any ice armor [i usually go with the first one]
rest into firebolt
get around 107% faster cast rate and you tele nice and fast, throw insight on your merc for mass mana this is theoretically good for soloing hell. but if you are making a sorc for multiplayer/MF purposes, raw damage and speed are more important. i always found FO damage to be really lackluster(which disappoints me because its such a cool spell) even when targeted correctly. and meteor is kinda slow. when i had a meteorb sorc i always found myself spamming FB instead.
haha, i should have elaborated
meteorb does not rely on meteor
meteor is maxed as a synergy and occasional [wave 2 spawns like to sit in 1 place] baal runs, but you use frozen orb + fireball to kill
you can also meteor vs diablo, or mephisto via moat trick
orb is your aoe, fireball hits single targets
orb is your timed attack, fb is not, orb, spam 3 fbs, then orb again
you can run meph, pit, ancient tunnels, masoleum, shrenk/edrich and pindleskin easily
since you are not limited to 1 element you can deal with most immunes
most people who have issues with orb dont aim it right, dont blindly fire it, shoot it so it explodes right on the target, so each shard hits it
it does a great job at boss killing, 300 dmg per shard at 20+ shards and -100 res deals great dmg, key is to get cold mastery to take away 100 res of theirs, dont overdo it though unless you go pvp and you max that out to reduce stacked resists
this of course is for sorcs with no uber gg gear, you want to kill as many things and survive your runs, so it optimizes itself.
this is the sorc i make at the start of each ladder, it mfs me till i get either a lit sorc or hdin setup
if you have infinity, yea go with pure lit, and make a sin instead, trapper/ww sin is sick and crazy
but if you are poor, and not running a bot, meteorb works very very well, you dont have to run from immunes and can kill things fast in your mf runs
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On July 08 2011 06:24 Orpheos wrote:
my favorite MF blizz sorc setup that was semi budget involved using only parts of the tal set.
something like shako, occy, lidless, tal belt, armor and ammy, the MF boots(forget the name) and either magefists or chancies(i believe i could get to the FCR breakpoint without FCR gloves by using only one FCR ring).
to nepeta
is your build that much better than a full light sorc w/ infinity?
No. Damage output is about 5500 blizz and 3,5k fireball, doesn't compare to light sorc with infinity. Cost is a lot lower though, especially in single player, where you have to find your bers yourself :p With 1.13 it is very feasable to find 2 bers, but then you'd also have to consider making enigma, or beast (which opens up a lot crazy builds). If you then would want to add an infinity to what is already a very strong class, diminishing returns will be eating you alive.
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Hell is more designed for parties. To put an immunity that stops cold a certain class or type of char would be ridiculous any other way. Even with perfect gear, no build can get through hell without some problems. But with a well rounded party, you can clear hell easily without items. It's a shame it's so hard to find good people to play with online though. That's something that Blizzard really needs to fix in D3, though how, I have no idea.
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Actually, meteorb vs blizz/ball seems to be a toss-up: This guy built a rather strong orb sorc, concludes it doesn't really matter which one you choose. The biggest difference is in the aiming: blizz is point and kill, orb requires delicate positioning.
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hey does anyone got any extra d2/lod cd keys laying around? i got a few sc2 accounts and would be willing to trade 1 for a set of keys if anyone wants. also if this isnt allowed sorry someone let me know and i ll delete the post
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On July 08 2011 09:21 Gliche wrote:
Hell is more designed for parties. To put an immunity that stops cold a certain class or type of char would be ridiculous any other way. Even with perfect gear, no build can get through hell without some problems. But with a well rounded party, you can clear hell easily without items. It's a shame it's so hard to find good people to play with online though. That's something that Blizzard really needs to fix in D3, though how, I have no idea.
not really
hammerdins solo the game 
blessed hammer for everything, then holy bolt for undead magic immunes, or your merc kills them [he's getting a nice dmg boost from conc, 400+ed]
only area he cant kill is act3 lam esem's tome quest where you get non undead magic immunes... which your merc can happily kill [and live thru as he can leech] or you can smite them down
mine did great before he got his nigma [though the tele made transportation sooo much faster], and only the nigma is his gg uber gg item but vipermagi is good too
same goes for pure bone necros, you only have trouble with magic immunes, but you can corpse explosion them to death, phys dmg they laugh at with bone armor
sorcs, again meteorb with a merc will kill 90% of things save for monsters like the countess
barbs can go thru the game slowly, with ww/berserk, there are no phys/magic dual immunes, a barb with full ik set can go happily thru the game, just not that fast
only druids will have trouble, but elemental druids [tornado and hurricane] do well, only having to worry about dual cold/phys immunes, my friend solo'ed hell with decent gear, [jalals, vipermagi, dual spirits, etc], they lol at elemental dmg as they have huge cyclone armor bonus
now for uber gg gear
infinity sins can also take the game, with infinty and death sentry you kill just about anything that isnt unbreakable lit immune + fire immune/phys, and again your merc or you can kill it [chaos + fury]
use your shadow master as a decoy, or jump in with fury
my friend runs a bot for clan ant, his sin is 99 and does runs as fast as hammerdins, quite often faster
my old hybrid zon was also good, only had trouble with lit + phys immunes, so she had an act1 fire merc [faith bow for crazy ias] that would take care of anything, but an act2 holy freeze merc did wonders as well before that faith bow [buriza and hellrack xbows are also very good if you dont have a fire faith merc, good cold dmg on buriza, and massive elemental dmg on hellrack]
if you want a pure javazon, they keep tiamats rebuke/demons arch on alt switch, good fire dmg for phys+lit immunes
hardest i think is you want to go single element like all poison, fire, or ice as its harder to break those immunities than say lit, magic, or phys
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On July 08 2011 09:25 nepeta wrote:Actually, meteorb vs blizz/ball seems to be a toss-up: This guy built a rather strong orb sorc, concludes it doesn't really matter which one you choose. The biggest difference is in the aiming: blizz is point and kill, orb requires delicate positioning.
that guys gear is so unreal... deaths fathom + 1.07 valor?
simply put, you wont get 1.07 valor on ladder as they dont exist legit, and deaths fathom are so rare
a pure blizz sorc would do better than a blizz/ball sorc, as blizz is missing 1 synergy so you dont kill fire immunes as fast
this is a better explanation of why i prefer meteorb to say blizzballer or pure blizz [though i do like pure blizz, its just more specialized)
http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254070
reason i like it is that you get a very powerful fireball alongside orb, as orb is fine without synergies
but if you go blizzball, then you need more points into blizz's synergies, and end up with 2 ok dmg skills instead of 2 high dmg skills
my old uber gg sorc in 1.12 did 20k meteor and had an infinity merc, her fb did about 10kdmg per fireball, but had some great gear
but here,
stats to compare for the sorc builds we all talked about
these are all naked, so with +skillers they will increase exponentially in dmg, pick whichever one you want, they are at the lvl the build usually finishes at
Meteorb lvl 90, naked sorc
fire dmg - 2.3k max
cold dmg - 282 per shard [12 shards if you hit right, so about 3k max dmg]
cold - 20 orb, 7 cold mastery
fire - 20 meteor, fireball, fire mastery
9 points unassigned
good fire and cold dmg, easiest to lvl up to
blizz baller lvl98 naked sorc
fire dmg - 1k max
cold dmg - 1.7k
fire: 20 firebolt, 20 fireball, (1mastery but I use tal's set)
cold: 20 blizz, 20 icebolt, 5 cold mastery, 16 ice blast, 1 frozen armour, 1 nova
1 point unassigned
easy to use, but need to lvl ALOT
pure blizz sorc lvl 91
cold - 2.4k blizz
cold: 20 blizz, ice bolt, glacial spike, ice blast, 17 cold mastery
8 points unassigned
oh god so easy to use, but cant kill everything
pure lit sorc lvl 85
lit - 3.7k lightning, 2.4k chain lightning
lit - 20 lit mastery, lightning, chain lightning, charged bolt
14 points unassigned!
lowest to lvl, crazy dmg, but it cant kill everything and needs much much more fcr than other builds
max out nova for the last synergy and it becomes 4.7k lit and 2.9 chain lit NAKED
all have have 1 pt tele, static field, warmth for teleporting, boss hp reducing, and mana regen
gear wise, lit gear is the most expensive, while the other 3 builds [blizzball/meteorb/pure blizz] are pretty cheap to gear up
in the end, its what your playstyle is that should be your deciding factor, can you aim orb, or do you want less dmg but over a smaller area, and do you want to only kill 1 type of monsters or more than one.
also for poor HC people, try this build
http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=557123
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On July 08 2011 09:44 amd098 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:21 Gliche wrote:
Hell is more designed for parties. To put an immunity that stops cold a certain class or type of char would be ridiculous any other way. Even with perfect gear, no build can get through hell without some problems. But with a well rounded party, you can clear hell easily without items. It's a shame it's so hard to find good people to play with online though. That's something that Blizzard really needs to fix in D3, though how, I have no idea. not really hammerdins solo the game blessed hammer for everything, then holy bolt for undead magic immunes, or your merc kills them [he's getting a nice dmg boost from conc, 400+ed] only area he cant kill is act3 lam esem's tome quest where you get non undead magic immunes... which your merc can happily kill [and live thru as he can leech] or you can smite them down mine did great before he got his nigma [though the tele made transportation sooo much faster], and only the nigma is his gg uber gg item but vipermagi is good too same goes for pure bone necros, you only have trouble with magic immunes, but you can corpse explosion them to death, phys dmg they laugh at with bone armor sorcs, again meteorb with a merc will kill 90% of things save for monsters like the countess barbs can go thru the game slowly, with ww/berserk, there are no phys/magic dual immunes, a barb with full ik set can go happily thru the game, just not that fast only druids will have trouble, but elemental druids [tornado and hurricane] do well, only having to worry about dual cold/phys immunes, my friend solo'ed hell with decent gear, [jalals, vipermagi, dual spirits, etc], they lol at elemental dmg as they have huge cyclone armor bonus now for uber gg gear infinity sins can also take the game, with infinty and death sentry you kill just about anything that isnt unbreakable lit immune + fire immune/phys, and again your merc or you can kill it [chaos + fury] use your shadow master as a decoy, or jump in with fury my friend runs a bot for clan ant, his sin is 99 and does runs as fast as hammerdins, quite often faster my old hybrid zon was also good, only had trouble with lit + phys immunes, so she had an act1 fire merc [faith bow for crazy ias] that would take care of anything, but an act2 holy freeze merc did wonders as well before that faith bow [buriza and hellrack xbows are also very good if you dont have a fire faith merc, good cold dmg on buriza, and massive elemental dmg on hellrack] if you want a pure javazon, they keep tiamats rebuke/demons arch on alt switch, good fire dmg for phys+lit immunes hardest i think is you want to go single element like all poison, fire, or ice as its harder to break those immunities than say lit, magic, or phys
Yes there are specific ways to deal with these problems, but none of those ways solve the problem. The problem is that while they help, they don't solve. Even the most geared hdins don't want to deal with mana burn OK bosspacks in WSK. Diverse groups, with or without items can solve all the problems of hell, without being dependent on enigma to skip areas. This is what the immunities were intended to push players into doing. 8 hdins is nowhere as fast nor practical as 8 diverse chars. A good group will be doing 3-5 minute hell baal runs by the end of day 1 after ladder reset. 8 hdins will be nowhere near that.
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On July 08 2011 12:49 Gliche wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 09:44 amd098 wrote:On July 08 2011 09:21 Gliche wrote:
Hell is more designed for parties. To put an immunity that stops cold a certain class or type of char would be ridiculous any other way. Even with perfect gear, no build can get through hell without some problems. But with a well rounded party, you can clear hell easily without items. It's a shame it's so hard to find good people to play with online though. That's something that Blizzard really needs to fix in D3, though how, I have no idea. not really hammerdins solo the game blessed hammer for everything, then holy bolt for undead magic immunes, or your merc kills them [he's getting a nice dmg boost from conc, 400+ed] only area he cant kill is act3 lam esem's tome quest where you get non undead magic immunes... which your merc can happily kill [and live thru as he can leech] or you can smite them down mine did great before he got his nigma [though the tele made transportation sooo much faster], and only the nigma is his gg uber gg item but vipermagi is good too same goes for pure bone necros, you only have trouble with magic immunes, but you can corpse explosion them to death, phys dmg they laugh at with bone armor sorcs, again meteorb with a merc will kill 90% of things save for monsters like the countess barbs can go thru the game slowly, with ww/berserk, there are no phys/magic dual immunes, a barb with full ik set can go happily thru the game, just not that fast only druids will have trouble, but elemental druids [tornado and hurricane] do well, only having to worry about dual cold/phys immunes, my friend solo'ed hell with decent gear, [jalals, vipermagi, dual spirits, etc], they lol at elemental dmg as they have huge cyclone armor bonus now for uber gg gear infinity sins can also take the game, with infinty and death sentry you kill just about anything that isnt unbreakable lit immune + fire immune/phys, and again your merc or you can kill it [chaos + fury] use your shadow master as a decoy, or jump in with fury my friend runs a bot for clan ant, his sin is 99 and does runs as fast as hammerdins, quite often faster my old hybrid zon was also good, only had trouble with lit + phys immunes, so she had an act1 fire merc [faith bow for crazy ias] that would take care of anything, but an act2 holy freeze merc did wonders as well before that faith bow [buriza and hellrack xbows are also very good if you dont have a fire faith merc, good cold dmg on buriza, and massive elemental dmg on hellrack] if you want a pure javazon, they keep tiamats rebuke/demons arch on alt switch, good fire dmg for phys+lit immunes hardest i think is you want to go single element like all poison, fire, or ice as its harder to break those immunities than say lit, magic, or phys Yes there are specific ways to deal with these problems, but none of those ways solve the problem. The problem is that while they help, they don't solve. Even the most geared hdins don't want to deal with mana burn OK bosspacks in WSK. Diverse groups, with or without items can solve all the problems of hell, without being dependent on enigma to skip areas. This is what the immunities were intended to push players into doing. 8 hdins is nowhere as fast nor practical as 8 diverse chars. A good group will be doing 3-5 minute hell baal runs by the end of day 1 after ladder reset. 8 hdins will be nowhere near that.
well in a way they have. what made parties fail in diablo 2 were stolen drops. Now that drops are individual this should make every game full coop, plus no hostiles. diablo 3 PLEASE!
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amd098 your comparison of blizz vs orb is unfair: blizz is doing damage per shard like orb does, so you'd be looking a much higher damage than you lead to believe. And now I'm done with the meteorb vs blizz/ball discussion :p
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On July 08 2011 12:58 vaporizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 12:49 Gliche wrote:On July 08 2011 09:44 amd098 wrote:On July 08 2011 09:21 Gliche wrote:
Hell is more designed for parties. To put an immunity that stops cold a certain class or type of char would be ridiculous any other way. Even with perfect gear, no build can get through hell without some problems. But with a well rounded party, you can clear hell easily without items. It's a shame it's so hard to find good people to play with online though. That's something that Blizzard really needs to fix in D3, though how, I have no idea. not really hammerdins solo the game blessed hammer for everything, then holy bolt for undead magic immunes, or your merc kills them [he's getting a nice dmg boost from conc, 400+ed] only area he cant kill is act3 lam esem's tome quest where you get non undead magic immunes... which your merc can happily kill [and live thru as he can leech] or you can smite them down mine did great before he got his nigma [though the tele made transportation sooo much faster], and only the nigma is his gg uber gg item but vipermagi is good too same goes for pure bone necros, you only have trouble with magic immunes, but you can corpse explosion them to death, phys dmg they laugh at with bone armor sorcs, again meteorb with a merc will kill 90% of things save for monsters like the countess barbs can go thru the game slowly, with ww/berserk, there are no phys/magic dual immunes, a barb with full ik set can go happily thru the game, just not that fast only druids will have trouble, but elemental druids [tornado and hurricane] do well, only having to worry about dual cold/phys immunes, my friend solo'ed hell with decent gear, [jalals, vipermagi, dual spirits, etc], they lol at elemental dmg as they have huge cyclone armor bonus now for uber gg gear infinity sins can also take the game, with infinty and death sentry you kill just about anything that isnt unbreakable lit immune + fire immune/phys, and again your merc or you can kill it [chaos + fury] use your shadow master as a decoy, or jump in with fury my friend runs a bot for clan ant, his sin is 99 and does runs as fast as hammerdins, quite often faster my old hybrid zon was also good, only had trouble with lit + phys immunes, so she had an act1 fire merc [faith bow for crazy ias] that would take care of anything, but an act2 holy freeze merc did wonders as well before that faith bow [buriza and hellrack xbows are also very good if you dont have a fire faith merc, good cold dmg on buriza, and massive elemental dmg on hellrack] if you want a pure javazon, they keep tiamats rebuke/demons arch on alt switch, good fire dmg for phys+lit immunes hardest i think is you want to go single element like all poison, fire, or ice as its harder to break those immunities than say lit, magic, or phys Yes there are specific ways to deal with these problems, but none of those ways solve the problem. The problem is that while they help, they don't solve. Even the most geared hdins don't want to deal with mana burn OK bosspacks in WSK. Diverse groups, with or without items can solve all the problems of hell, without being dependent on enigma to skip areas. This is what the immunities were intended to push players into doing. 8 hdins is nowhere as fast nor practical as 8 diverse chars. A good group will be doing 3-5 minute hell baal runs by the end of day 1 after ladder reset. 8 hdins will be nowhere near that. well in a way they have. what made parties fail in diablo 2 were stolen drops. Now that drops are individual this should make every game full coop, plus no hostiles. diablo 3 PLEASE!
Wait, no hostiles? At all? So no more lag hack followed by TPPK? Yay!
Although, I actually always liked how you could turn a game into a duel game at a whim with your friends, and then go back to pvm again. I'm going to go find out what Blizzard has said about pvp now. I'd like a more fluid feel than "the section is for pvm, now go over there for pvp." They still have trophy ears or something like that I hope.
edit: yes i confirmed they have ears, how could i forget i saw that before
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On July 08 2011 09:16 amd098 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 00:40 Orpheos wrote:On July 07 2011 23:57 amd098 wrote:
i wouldnt do blizz/fb as both fb and blizz need lots of synergies
id go meteorb instead
max meteor, fire mastery, fireball
max frozen orb, points into ice mastery up till it gives -100%
1 pt teleport, warmth, static field, any ice armor [i usually go with the first one]
rest into firebolt
get around 107% faster cast rate and you tele nice and fast, throw insight on your merc for mass mana this is theoretically good for soloing hell. but if you are making a sorc for multiplayer/MF purposes, raw damage and speed are more important. i always found FO damage to be really lackluster(which disappoints me because its such a cool spell) even when targeted correctly. and meteor is kinda slow. when i had a meteorb sorc i always found myself spamming FB instead. haha, i should have elaborated meteorb does not rely on meteor meteor is maxed as a synergy and occasional [wave 2 spawns like to sit in 1 place] baal runs, but you use frozen orb + fireball to kill you can also meteor vs diablo, or mephisto via moat trick orb is your aoe, fireball hits single targets orb is your timed attack, fb is not, orb, spam 3 fbs, then orb again you can run meph, pit, ancient tunnels, masoleum, shrenk/edrich and pindleskin easilysince you are not limited to 1 element you can deal with most immunes most people who have issues with orb dont aim it right, dont blindly fire it, shoot it so it explodes right on the target, so each shard hits it it does a great job at boss killing, 300 dmg per shard at 20+ shards and -100 res deals great dmg, key is to get cold mastery to take away 100 res of theirs, dont overdo it though unless you go pvp and you max that out to reduce stacked resists this of course is for sorcs with no uber gg gear, you want to kill as many things and survive your runs, so it optimizes itself. this is the sorc i make at the start of each ladder, it mfs me till i get either a lit sorc or hdin setup if you have infinity, yea go with pure lit, and make a sin instead, trapper/ww sin is sick and crazy but if you are poor, and not running a bot, meteorb works very very well, you dont have to run from immunes and can kill things fast in your mf runs
meph, ancient tunnels and pindle are run MUCH faster using pure blizz. and as your first mf char on the ladder i personally think meph+pindle gives you the most value. as a meteorb the meph moat trick took SO much longer.
but you are right if you play the meteorb sorc right, you can still do alot of damage. Im just saying that amount of finesse is not necessary unless you are intending to solo hell. as a MFer you just tele past cold immunes and focus on killing super fast.
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EPT
