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On December 10 2011 05:39 Shauni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:17 Belha wrote:
I would like to know what a old school, rpg experienced player think about skyrim battle system.
I feel it so simple, so "undeep", i think that skyrim with a dragon age or kotor or baldur's gate battle style (not neccesary turn based) would be the perfect game, but imo the battle system is pretty weak. Yeah, battle system is very tedious and unrewarding no matter which style you play. Archery? Abuse AI, Melee? Abuse AI and mash attack button. Spellcaster? Spam destruction spells or watch as your summons kill them... Spells lack complexity, archery and fighting lack use of real skills. You'd think they could add some more interesting mouse gesture attacks or skill for blocking. Even the bossfights and dragon fights are boring. They usually get stuck somewhere or try to attack something else while you can safely finish them. The AI feels so... dead, I hoped they'd have fixed it since Oblivion but Bethesda are terrible at learning from past mistakes. A quick glance at the main competition Witcher 2 or Dark Souls and the combat feels like a terrible never-ending nightmare in comparison. And I haven't even mentioned the annoying level-up-system or the broken enchanting and smithing, because people talk about it all the time. Same thing with the controls. Who would have thought the most challenging part of the game was selecting the star in the skill-tree you wanted to level up? Hilarious. And while i commend the amount of dialogue and books in the game, the writing is fucking horrendous. Every character treats you as a 5 year old delivery-boy. Characters personalities are either nonexistent to theatrically overblown archetypes. There is no maturity, no real decision-making beyond some black vs white scenarios which rarely has any significance whatsoever (how can Skyrim even be called a RPG at this point?), everywhere you go, it's the same quests no matter the person, town or land. Even in the more "elaborately" created guildquests, you gotta hunt those fucking artifacts. And when you go hunting artifacts, it's always in some shitty dungeon with hundreds of Draugrs. Yeah, I know, you think I'm being unnecessarily harsh, but all these minor flaws pile up and make me annoyed because I can't grasp the atmosphere or the world. It's a dead and desolate place. Same feeling as with Fallout 3. Same as Oblivion. Betheseda creates all these NPCs who go about on their daily lives in the games, yet it's just a shallow exterior to this empty shell. It irks me how some things are very polished in the game, yet other, more basic elements are fundamentally discarded. It's ironic how Obsidian managed to succeed in creating a lot more involving, large world in barely a year with New Vegas which is what Betheseda attempted for over a decade... and still can't get right. I'm a bit surprised and alarmed at this recycled concept is getting such good reviews. I thought we had higher standards than this for an ideal game.
I think everything you say has merit -- the writing is indeed very terrible and combat can get repetitive, but what makes Skyrim so damn fun is the freedom of choice and the joy of discovering new things. You're not ever limited to any class, location or quest -- if you find hand to hand combat or straight-up fireballing someone to death boring, you can mix and match, try out weird hybrid classes like sneaky illusionist, paladin, warmage (bound weapons + alteration). Each has its own way of killing, and discovering that new way of combat is oh so satisfying. Today, I snuck up on a blood dragon and took down 60% of its health in a quad backstab with my dual wielding thief :D
I've got ~150 hrs of gameplay, and I'm probably going to put in another 50hrs at least because I'm still enjoying figuring out new ways of combat, I'm still discovering new random locations that have their own little miniquests, and it's all so fun!
+ Show Spoiler +That being said, I do acknowledge you do need to play at Master, and avoid Smithy, Enchant, and Alchemy because of how retardedly powerful they are.
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is awesome32282 Posts
Ok starting new character on master.
Illusion / Destruction / Sneak / Lockpick or Speech + 2H or 1H, dunno yet. 1H synergizes more, but the feeling of decapitating someone with a greatsword is just too good.
Can't use conjuration, alchemy, smithing or enchanting cause they are all broken.
Seriously, all they need to do to balance it at least a bit is too make the experience gain a negative exponential instead of something linear or related to the armor/weapon/enchantment you craft.
Also smaller gains on damage and stuff like that.
Need to re-work some trees.
Can't wait till Janurary when we get some modding to add some difficulty. Also, yeah, the system is pretty much button smashing.
Another retarded thing is potions. You shouldn't be able to take potions instantly during pause, they should be equipped and do an animation, or only be taken outside battle. (a la witcher 2)
edit: It would be cool to have an appetite bar too, so you have to feed to stay healthy (else you don't recover stats decently), so being a merchant/cooker/hunter would bring some benefits.
I also feel the moral system is too rigid. It's hard to be a bad guy when asassinating people gets you persecuted even if you aren't seen 
edit 2: wish they would release a patch to remove all the "fetch me" quests.
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On December 10 2011 07:56 Carnagath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:17 Belha wrote:
I would like to know what a old school, rpg experienced player think about skyrim battle system.
I feel it so simple, so "undeep", i think that skyrim with a dragon age or kotor or baldur's gate battle style (not neccesary turn based) would be the perfect game, but imo the battle system is pretty weak. I don't regard Skyrim as having a combat system. You click, the engine crunches some numbers and then you see the outcome; sometimes the game even takes away control from you to show you a cutscene. It's completely rubbish and that's the main reason why I don't bother to raise the difficulty higher than Adept. What little skill requirement and depth exists, it only exists in juggling different magic spells and wards, which is immediately crippled by the horrible interface and is more cumbersome than fun. Unfortunately, that's where most RPG's are headed these days, with possibly the sole exception of Demon's/Dark Souls. Any tactical depth is considered too complex and any reflex/reaction requirement too steep for the average gamer and thus too risky.
It's a roleplaying game, first and foremost. You don't hear people talking shit about how turn-based Final Fantasies have no combat depth.
It's not a fucking FPS, people. It's an RPG. It's all math. AI shouldn't be as exploitable for that reason, it should boil down to just relative power levels, that's what RPGs are about.
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The thing is, playing a game like Skyrim makes me weep for how much better it could be...
They have done so many things greatly, that i feel if they had invested just 100 hours into better speech acting for the main quest lines (+faction quests) instead of doing the half assed job they did the game would definitly be the best game of the year.
Or on the other side if they had invested some more thought into the combat system and fixed the alchemy/smithing/enchanting effects (exploit) they could have also improved greatly. You can't tell me that didn't come up in the beta at all. Simply capping those three skills at some level would be enough and that isn't so hard to code.
Don't get me wrong, i love the game, but just as with Morrowind and Oblivion they missed making a perfect game by a bit, and instead made a great game.
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is awesome32282 Posts
On December 10 2011 08:34 Tula wrote:
The thing is, playing a game like Skyrim makes me weep for how much better it could be...
Yeah, I just re-read my post and it sounds like I hate the game. I actually like it a lot, but I see all this potential within the engine that could be awesome with just some minor tweaks. Localized damage maybe (nothing TOO fancy, but maybe something like fallout, where you could bleed, be encumbered by a broken leg, etc), enemies that can jump instead of going around in circles when you get on top of a stone, limited house choices (imagine how awesome it would be if you could make your own house, or at least design it a bit), etc.
Like right now I don't know if Skyrim is able to localize damage, but if it is, or if it's not hard to code, imagine the possibilities it opens. Resto mages could use spells to cure themselves, cooking/alchemists could maybe prepare something to cure different types of damages and people who don't invest in those trees have to deal with that kind of stuff by having certain pots or battling with only 1 hand cause their right arm got smashed by a Troll.
Some perk trees are too 1 dimensional and some are even worth looking at, only if you are looking for a challenge.
I hope modders can fix some of that stuff when the creation tool kit comes out.
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On December 10 2011 08:34 Tula wrote:
The thing is, playing a game like Skyrim makes me weep for how much better it could be...
They have done so many things greatly, that i feel if they had invested just 100 hours into better speech acting for the main quest lines (+faction quests) instead of doing the half assed job they did the game would definitly be the best game of the year.
Or on the other side if they had invested some more thought into the combat system and fixed the alchemy/smithing/enchanting effects (exploit) they could have also improved greatly. You can't tell me that didn't come up in the beta at all. Simply capping those three skills at some level would be enough and that isn't so hard to code.
Don't get me wrong, i love the game, but just as with Morrowind and Oblivion they missed making a perfect game by a bit, and instead made a great game.
Problem with doing that with a game like Skyrim, you could developp the thing for 10 years and still not be done.
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On December 10 2011 08:33 AutomatonOmega wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 07:56 Carnagath wrote:On December 10 2011 03:17 Belha wrote:
I would like to know what a old school, rpg experienced player think about skyrim battle system.
I feel it so simple, so "undeep", i think that skyrim with a dragon age or kotor or baldur's gate battle style (not neccesary turn based) would be the perfect game, but imo the battle system is pretty weak. I don't regard Skyrim as having a combat system. You click, the engine crunches some numbers and then you see the outcome; sometimes the game even takes away control from you to show you a cutscene. It's completely rubbish and that's the main reason why I don't bother to raise the difficulty higher than Adept. What little skill requirement and depth exists, it only exists in juggling different magic spells and wards, which is immediately crippled by the horrible interface and is more cumbersome than fun. Unfortunately, that's where most RPG's are headed these days, with possibly the sole exception of Demon's/Dark Souls. Any tactical depth is considered too complex and any reflex/reaction requirement too steep for the average gamer and thus too risky. It's a roleplaying game, first and foremost. You don't hear people talking shit about how turn-based Final Fantasies have no combat depth. It's not a fucking FPS, people. It's an RPG. It's all math. AI shouldn't be as exploitable for that reason, it should boil down to just relative power levels, that's what RPGs are about.
To be fair, Final Fantasy had a deep combat system. Skyrim's is pretty shallow. Though of course it is silly to compare the combat system to more action oriented like demons souls and Mount and Blade. You have crazy terrain not present in either.
Relative power levels? NO SIR. RPG fans like synergy and having to employ different tactics. The most depth in Skyrim's rpg combat math is drinking a resist frost potion if your friendly neighborhood dragon breathes frost. That and lots of bug abuse which you already know is a gaping flaw. Constant grinding just to get through is usually annoying more then anything else.
But alas, that's what happens when you get a weird concoction of hybrid rpg/action. Mount and Blade, Souls, they both spoiled me so much. I quit my one handed character as I felt bored out of my mind, especially after doing the disappointing civil war quest line. Started my new character who is batman, much more fun playing the sneaky backstabber/archer.
I didn't bother fighting the first dragon, my first char I was annoyed after I had killed 14 of them, I was tripping on dragons. A dragon free skyrim free to explore is a very fun skyrim.
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Its ridiculous when the Giant's do their ground slam attack and propel my companion into space... While my character was over the weight limit carrying precious goods in the middle of nowhere Then I found out they return to their town of origin, phew.
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I think you guy will like this
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0u6FG.jpg)
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On December 10 2011 10:01 SafeAsCheese wrote:I think you guy will like this
Oh my god you are amazing. This is the funniest thing I have seen in forever.
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Can't believe people are still playing this game. I got to level 38 and then returned it. Something about casting a spell over and over on a dead animal carcass to level up my 2 hand skill got boring. Bad voice acting and unengaging combat compared to a game like Dark Souls. Skyrim to me was a reminder that gameplay > everything else and returning it was the best thing I've ever done because it has the WoW addiction factor where you sit there and play it anyways knowing full-well you're not even enjoying yourself. I HAD to return it to the store otherwise I would have sat there and played it anyways despite not enjoying it... such a weird phenomenon. To each his own, but in my opinion Skyrim is highly overrated and I can't imagine anyone truthfully sitting there playing the game and fighting bad games and being able to honestly say "i'm having fun right now".
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On December 10 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 08:34 Tula wrote:
The thing is, playing a game like Skyrim makes me weep for how much better it could be...
They have done so many things greatly, that i feel if they had invested just 100 hours into better speech acting for the main quest lines (+faction quests) instead of doing the half assed job they did the game would definitly be the best game of the year.
Or on the other side if they had invested some more thought into the combat system and fixed the alchemy/smithing/enchanting effects (exploit) they could have also improved greatly. You can't tell me that didn't come up in the beta at all. Simply capping those three skills at some level would be enough and that isn't so hard to code.
Don't get me wrong, i love the game, but just as with Morrowind and Oblivion they missed making a perfect game by a bit, and instead made a great game. Problem with doing that with a game like Skyrim, you could developp the thing for 10 years and still not be done.
true, but as i said hiring decent voice actors should NOT be outside of their budget. consider how long they worked on Skyrim and how much it must have cost, that decision to skimp there cost them a lot concerning atmosphere.
The other things i have mentioned (combat system, or at least capping the crafting skills) are more difficult or complex, but the crafting exploit at least MUST have come up during beta, and should have been capped instantly.
Simply saying: "no weapon can have above 100 damage" would be enough to fix the worst abuses. (arbitrary number, obviously daggers, 1h weapons, bows and 2h weapons would need different values, but you should be able to see my point).
Hit zones difficult? Fallout managed them... Hell Mount and Blade which is years older and was made on a much lower budget has a better combat system.
I'm not expecting Dragon Age Origins or Baldur's gate level complexy, thats obviously not Bethesdas strong point, but considering how much effort they invested in some areas they neglected some fairly important areas.
If i had to grade Skyrim i'd give it a 10 for gfx and quests (until your done with the factions and start to the the radiant AI generated stuff, thats fairly boring). The lackluster voice acting makes the atmosphere rating go down to 8 for me (and that only because they did everything else so well). The combat system would get a 5 at best.
Now be honest do you truly think they couldn't have done better?
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Combat is very shallow and boring point and click and most magics are pretty much a bow with elemental damage. The only really interesting combat spells are in illusion and even they are horribly, horribly OP.
Why are wizards, sorcs, arcane casters in general kick ass interesting to play in DnD? Because they do so much, SO MUCH more than just XX damage. Sure there's a lot of those so you can be a walking artillery platform (hi sorcs), but there's debuffing, crowd control, buffing, all sorts of crazy stuffs to use. It's more choice than "do I shoot this thing with icy arrow or fiery arrow"
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On December 10 2011 08:34 Tula wrote:
The thing is, playing a game like Skyrim makes me weep for how much better it could be...
They have done so many things greatly, that i feel if they had invested just 100 hours into better speech acting for the main quest lines (+faction quests) instead of doing the half assed job they did the game would definitly be the best game of the year.
Or on the other side if they had invested some more thought into the combat system and fixed the alchemy/smithing/enchanting effects (exploit) they could have also improved greatly. You can't tell me that didn't come up in the beta at all. Simply capping those three skills at some level would be enough and that isn't so hard to code.
Don't get me wrong, i love the game, but just as with Morrowind and Oblivion they missed making a perfect game by a bit, and instead made a great game.
Well see that's a big problem though. They did do alot of great things despite my above criticism, but what they did poorly are KEY ELEMENTS to making a great game. In a medieval-ish combat-based large-scaled RPG they managed to completely neglect making combat fun. It feels like they just made the game big for the sake of saying they made a big game... that is NOT effort. Effort is being meticulous with your creation and releasing something that is your best work...something you can be proud of. Bethesda can't be sitting in their offices patting themselves on the back for making a great game... they can only pat themselves for making a game that sold well.
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On December 10 2011 08:31 IntoTheWow wrote:Ok starting new character on master. Illusion / Destruction / Sneak / Lockpick or Speech + 2H or 1H, dunno yet. 1H synergizes more, but the feeling of decapitating someone with a greatsword is just too good. Can't use conjuration, alchemy, smithing or enchanting cause they are all broken. Seriously, all they need to do to balance it at least a bit is too make the experience gain a negative exponential instead of something linear or related to the armor/weapon/enchantment you craft. Also smaller gains on damage and stuff like that. Need to re-work some trees. Can't wait till Janurary when we get some modding to add some difficulty. Also, yeah, the system is pretty much button smashing. Another retarded thing is potions. You shouldn't be able to take potions instantly during pause, they should be equipped and do an animation, or only be taken outside battle. (a la witcher 2) edit: It would be cool to have an appetite bar too, so you have to feed to stay healthy (else you don't recover stats decently), so being a merchant/cooker/hunter would bring some benefits. I also feel the moral system is too rigid. It's hard to be a bad guy when asassinating people gets you persecuted even if you aren't seen edit 2: wish they would release a patch to remove all the "fetch me" quests.
Least you can play :/
I am on the PS3 version, masters. 1h + shield + Restoration + heavy armor focused (no conj/smithing/enchanting as well)
Mages all 2-shot me because of no magic resistance. Dragon Priests 1-shot me.
Sucks so hard.
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How do you guys feel about Dark Messiah's combat system? I haven't played many RPGs, but their system was pretty awesome imo.
EDIT: SafeasCheese, get the Atronach stone, alteration absorb perk, Spellbreaker, wards, or the magic resist perk under block.
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On December 10 2011 10:37 Demonhunter04 wrote:
How do you guys feel about Dark Messiah's combat system? I haven't played many RPGs, but their system was pretty awesome imo.
EDIT: SafeasCheese, get the Atronach stone, alteration absorb perk, Spellbreaker, wards, or the magic resist perk under block.
There is no magic resistance, AT ALL, in the ps3/360 vesions
it was bugged in patch 1.2, and only PC has gotten 1.3 with the fix.
I have 80% magic resist (Lord stone + Breton + Shield of Solitude), it doesn't matter.
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i fully enjoy the combat system in skyrim. it's not perfect but what the hell can we expect
i'm fully satisfied with the 100 hours ive put into it thus far and i still haven't even seen half the game
instead of coming here to complain, why dont you go play another 30-40 hours then maybe youll know
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On December 10 2011 10:46 GoonFFS wrote:
i fully enjoy the combat system in skyrim. it's not perfect but what the hell can we expect
i'm fully satisfied with the 100 hours ive put into it thus far and i still haven't even seen half the game
instead of coming here to complain, why dont you go play another 30-40 hours then maybe youll know
Considering this a forum dedicated to talking about sports and games, I think we're entirely justified in criticizing a game a lot of us has spent plenty of time playing thank you very much. A game shouldn't need another 30-40 hours to become fun either.
We could entirely expect a better combat system. The current one is extremely dated.
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Good game, but I agree about the combat not being that great. The combat has actually not improved almost at all from morrowind back when I played that until now and it was always pretty bad. Just because its always been bad is not just some excuse to leave it alone instead of trying to improve it somehow.
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