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On July 19 2013 22:48 micronesia wrote:
When playing in person, should you announce that you are going to declare attackers before you do it?
My thinking is, if you don't, your opponent can look at what you plan to swing with, and then decide whether or not to play an instant at the end of your first main phase, based on info they shouldn't have. Most people don't bother announcing, though.
Yes, what you're really saying is begging of combat phase. The one phase before you declare attackers, you're asking if it's alright if i declare attackers. Once you're at declaring attackers phase you have priority and can tap to attack so things like tappers and some specific cards need to be done post main phase but before declaring attackers and so you're presenting the opportunity.
But for casual play you can be lose about it.
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On July 19 2013 22:48 micronesia wrote:
When playing in person, should you announce that you are going to declare attackers before you do it?
My thinking is, if you don't, your opponent can look at what you plan to swing with, and then decide whether or not to play an instant at the end of your first main phase, based on info they shouldn't have. Most people don't bother announcing, though.
You definitely should but it doesnt have to be anything big, just pause for a second and say combat? or attack phase?, letting them do something if they want to. Its generally not something that comes up often, but its a good habit to have especially for limited as cards that would use this timing window are usually more common.
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Just get into a habit of saying declare attackers, that signifies that the opponent needs to tap down your creatures if they want to keep them from attacking. This only hurts the attacker as it shows their intentions. This is especially important in even board states. So just get use to saying it, make it a habit.
Turn player always have priority until they pass it. They can't just go from main phase to beginning of the attack phase. Most of the time in person, when players skip phases to get to another or end their turn, the opposing player gets to say hold up. You see this most commonly on end phase spell casting.
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On July 19 2013 23:00 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:48 micronesia wrote:
When playing in person, should you announce that you are going to declare attackers before you do it?
My thinking is, if you don't, your opponent can look at what you plan to swing with, and then decide whether or not to play an instant at the end of your first main phase, based on info they shouldn't have. Most people don't bother announcing, though. Yes, what you're really saying is begging of combat phase. The one phase before you declare attackers, you're asking if it's alright if i declare attackers. Once you're at declaring attackers phase you have priority and can tap to attack so things like tappers and some specific cards need to be done post main phase but before declaring attackers and so you're presenting the opportunity. But for casual play you can be lose about it.
Nope, at high REL you can get into trouble for saying that. "Beginning of combat?" "Ok" means you are now in beginning of combat. And if you then turn your guys sideways, the opponent can tell you to back up, because you never left the beginning of combat step. You need to say "Declare attackers?" so that your opponent knows you want to enter that step.
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On July 19 2013 22:42 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 21:21 Audemed wrote:On July 19 2013 21:10 Judicator wrote:
Pithing Needle is such a bad answer to Aetherling. I would play around the card rather than trying to do something directly about it. You can't play around aetherling as control. You have to find a way to stop it, somehow, and pithing needle is the simplest answer. When an esper, UWR, or bant deck has cavern naming shapeshifter, you can't stop it from dropping and you can't get rid of it without draining their mana or turning off the abilities. One is easier than the other. People have played Needle against Aetherling in my decks and its just been like ok, I don't care. Unless they are all-in on that Aetherling plan, it's pretty underwhelming. The issue with Needle isn't that it's a bad card overall, it's that control decks rarely come at you in a single manner these days, that includes Esper. Needle's just too stop-gap and doesn't advance your board state which is what this standard format is all about. Basically, why is your opponent resolving Aetherling fearlessly against you in the first place is what you need to fix, not what happens if an Aetherling sticks. Also, the argument that you are boarding in Needle for other cards is a pretty weak one, are you seriously boarding in a pretty underwhelming card to turn off a 1 or 2 of in other decks? Like Appetite for Brains is a better board card against Aetherling than Needle is, if they got it you just took it out, if they don't you just planned your next few turns and maybe grabbed a card. Edit: Basically, my point is why are you boarding in a 1 mana artifact to turn off 1-2 copies of a 6 (more like 7) mana creature.
Needle is one of the best sideboard cards in standard at the moment, bar none. It hoses those cards or makes them easily answerable. Needle is almost never a dead card while if you Appetite at the wrong time you could miss your intended target completely. Plus needle crosses over to more match ups than appetite.
You also have to remember Needle isn't coming in solo in those match-ups. I being in Needle, Slaughter games, Assemble the Legion(Possibly Rest in peace) in most control match-ups. those are all the answers you need almost any game. If you needle an important card(aka Aetherling/Jace) and slaughter games another one(Revelation) you should be able to stall the game and eventually win.
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On July 20 2013 03:09 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:42 Judicator wrote:On July 19 2013 21:21 Audemed wrote:On July 19 2013 21:10 Judicator wrote:
Pithing Needle is such a bad answer to Aetherling. I would play around the card rather than trying to do something directly about it. You can't play around aetherling as control. You have to find a way to stop it, somehow, and pithing needle is the simplest answer. When an esper, UWR, or bant deck has cavern naming shapeshifter, you can't stop it from dropping and you can't get rid of it without draining their mana or turning off the abilities. One is easier than the other. People have played Needle against Aetherling in my decks and its just been like ok, I don't care. Unless they are all-in on that Aetherling plan, it's pretty underwhelming. The issue with Needle isn't that it's a bad card overall, it's that control decks rarely come at you in a single manner these days, that includes Esper. Needle's just too stop-gap and doesn't advance your board state which is what this standard format is all about. Basically, why is your opponent resolving Aetherling fearlessly against you in the first place is what you need to fix, not what happens if an Aetherling sticks. Also, the argument that you are boarding in Needle for other cards is a pretty weak one, are you seriously boarding in a pretty underwhelming card to turn off a 1 or 2 of in other decks? Like Appetite for Brains is a better board card against Aetherling than Needle is, if they got it you just took it out, if they don't you just planned your next few turns and maybe grabbed a card. Edit: Basically, my point is why are you boarding in a 1 mana artifact to turn off 1-2 copies of a 6 (more like 7) mana creature. Needle is one of the best sideboard cards in standard at the moment, bar none. It hoses those cards or makes them easily answerable. Needle is almost never a dead card while if you Appetite at the wrong time you could miss your intended target completely. Plus needle crosses over to more match ups than appetite. You also have to remember Needle isn't coming in solo in those match-ups. I being in Needle, Slaughter games, Assemble the Legion(Possibly Rest in peace) in most control match-ups. those are all the answers you need almost any game. If you needle an important card(aka Aetherling/Jace) and slaughter games another one(Revelation) you should be able to stall the game and eventually win.
Pretty sure if you draw multiple sideboard cards in games 2 and 3, you win the game regardless of what the sideboard cards are. I am just speaking from experience on people playing Needle on me both on Esper and in Bant. Like I don't expect much or care. I am actually kind of happy because its not a card that's going to kill me.
Edit:
In general I have problems with sideboarding like the one you described, in this format, why are you trying to nullify my threats instead of just trying to overwhelm them? The Slaughter Games is fine, but why are you trying to drag out a long game in the first place? Like a proper snipe on a Verdict/Terminus line is much more punishing than preventing them on using their Aetherling or Jace in an offensive manner. Just doesn't make sense to me that people especially midrange players would want to get into a grindfest against control decks at the cost of what the whole point of the midrange decks are.
Just seems odd, and I am usually happy to play that kind of a game since you are suddenly that much more reliant on those sideboard cards and not dropping threat after threat.
As for Appetite whiffing, sure, but you can plan your turns accordingly in the mid game.
Edit 2:
Basically, why are you sideboarding so defensively when you can be more proactive. Like the Legion plan is great, the SG plan I can buy since you can take out their outs, but the Needle is just like stopping irrelevant cards. If you SG for their outs, who the hell cares if they resolve a Jace, that Jace probably isn't surviving, their Aetherling isn't outracing your Obzedats, Blood Barons, so again, not sure why you would want to play for the stalled state.
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I'm playing UWR control, so there's not much chance of racing them. My deck is designed for the drawn out game, and a few sideboard cards won't fix it. Sure, I can try to land an assemble on T6 with dispel backup, but as a 1 and 2 of in the board respectively, that's unlikely to happen. '
Remember that needle also turns off jace and drownyard. Even if the aetherling isn't my biggest issue, turning off another wincon for 1 mana and a card (that's not terribly easy to remove with most decks) is alright with me.
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Which UWR are we talking about? The one with Nivs? Or the UWR Flash?
Yes Pithing Needle has a place in sideboards, I am not refuting that, I am questioning its place in a lot of boards.
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On July 20 2013 04:39 Judicator wrote:
Which UWR are we talking about? The one with Nivs? Or the UWR Flash?
Yes Pithing Needle has a place in sideboards, I am not refuting that, I am questioning its place in a lot of boards.
UWR flash, but with reckoners instead of augurs. It's not a netdeck, but that's the list it's closest to.
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I am not sure how you're having trouble against Esper, that match up is pretty good as is and Esper doesn't get to board too much in. The Bant is a little tougher but getting into a grind game against that deck seems pretty risky as is.
Not sure why you would worry too much about Aetherling, the fact that they're even safely casting an Aetherling against you seems already bad. They could have replaced Aetherling with any 6 or 7 drop and it doesn't bode too well for you.
The point that I was trying to make is that Pithing Needle is a highly defensive sideboard card that doesn't advance your plans. You guys seem to want to get into these grind games against decks designed to take it long. Not sure why.
Yes, an Aetherling will beat you, but that's on turn 7 and assuming they drew it at some point. Not sure if playing for the what-if is worth it in either deck.
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On July 20 2013 07:58 Judicator wrote:
I am not sure how you're having trouble against Esper, that match up is pretty good as is and Esper doesn't get to board too much in. The Bant is a little tougher but getting into a grind game against that deck seems pretty risky as is.
Not sure why you would worry too much about Aetherling, the fact that they're even safely casting an Aetherling against you seems already bad. They could have replaced Aetherling with any 6 or 7 drop and it doesn't bode too well for you.
The point that I was trying to make is that Pithing Needle is a highly defensive sideboard card that doesn't advance your plans. You guys seem to want to get into these grind games against decks designed to take it long. Not sure why.
Yes, an Aetherling will beat you, but that's on turn 7 and assuming they drew it at some point. Not sure if playing for the what-if is worth it in either deck.
It's not just for Aetherling though, the thing about needle is that you don't have to name the target when you put it in your deck. You keep it there until they're playing something you can't really deal with, THEN you use it. Spending 1 mana to effectively counter their 7 drop after they cast it is a good feeling. Once you do that, you go on winning. If they play a Tamiyo or Ral Zarek or Jayce that you can't deal with, name that. I weigh it about as much as a counterspell, it can give you the tempo advantage back when someone drops a bomb walker or an Aetherling. You don't T1 a Pithing Needle.
No, it doesn't belong in an aggro deck, but in control and midrange decks, it's a good sideboard card.
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Not sure why you are keeping it for something like that. If I bait out the Needle for the Aetherling what then? Hope to get another Needle? That line seems pretty weak, especially if they remove it some how.
Edit:
Side note, Ranger's Path is bonkers.
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On July 20 2013 08:35 Judicator wrote:
Not sure why you are keeping it for something like that. If I bait out the Needle for the Aetherling what then? Hope to get another Needle? That line seems pretty weak, especially if they remove it some how.
Edit:
Side note, Ranger's Path is bonkers.
So you're baiting out the Pithing needle with a 7 mana spell when I'm putting pressure on you? You're not gonna get the chance to land something worthy of another one.
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On July 20 2013 09:00 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 08:35 Judicator wrote:
Not sure why you are keeping it for something like that. If I bait out the Needle for the Aetherling what then? Hope to get another Needle? That line seems pretty weak, especially if they remove it some how.
Edit:
Side note, Ranger's Path is bonkers.
So you're baiting out the Pithing needle with a 7 mana spell when I'm putting pressure on you? You're not gonna get the chance to land something worthy of another one.
Why am I landing one in the first place? My point is that you are using the Needle to stop 5+ mana spells. I can go Jace/Garruk into Aetherling with whatever else is in the deck. Not sure what you mean by landing another one.
Edit:
Yeah, just combing through deck lists I don't see a lot of decks with Pithing Needles in them; only see them in Dailys, none in the recent PTQ or Premier Standard. In either case, I don't see either deck getting much out of the Aetherling. Maybe Shotcoder can let us know after his event on the efficacy of it. I just don't see why you guys are trading cards like that.
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BWR isn't based on grinding you out. It's based on pummeling you in the face with superior top decks. If I can nullify your win conditions then I essentially just have to not deck myself. Which is why the sideboard plan vs control is so "conservative". But honestly I don't see how Assemble is conservative at all, they're all proactive ways of dealing with problem cards.
Needle, why is it so good? The deck runs no instant speed removal to aetherling, at all. If we're playing average hands you will win with aetherling most of the time because I have zero ways to interact with it and you can just chump all day if you efficiently use your mana. Pithing Needle is absurd if you understand the weaknesses of your deck and use it to smooth out those weaknesses. Hence why it comes in vs those cards. Jace(either of them) really isn't an issue for the deck, Aetherling and drownyard on the other hand are insanely hard to handle because of the lack of interaction the deck has.
BWR also plays the control deck in almost every match not against Bant/Esper/UWR(non resto version). In those match-ups I essentially have to nullify win cons and draw multiple Lingering Souls. That's assuming they don't bring in graveyard hate(which I dont see why they would only hitting Souls).
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On July 20 2013 13:18 Shotcoder wrote:
BWR isn't based on grinding you out. It's based on pummeling you in the face with superior top decks. If I can nullify your win conditions then I essentially just have to not deck myself. Which is why the sideboard plan vs control is so "conservative". But honestly I don't see how Assemble is conservative at all, they're all proactive ways of dealing with problem cards.
Needle, why is it so good? The deck runs no instant speed removal to aetherling, at all. If we're playing average hands you will win with aetherling most of the time because I have zero ways to interact with it and you can just chump all day if you efficiently use your mana. Pithing Needle is absurd if you understand the weaknesses of your deck and use it to smooth out those weaknesses. Hence why it comes in vs those cards. Jace(either of them) really isn't an issue for the deck, Aetherling and drownyard on the other hand are insanely hard to handle because of the lack of interaction the deck has.
BWR also plays the control deck in almost every match not against Bant/Esper/UWR(non resto version). In those match-ups I essentially have to nullify win cons and draw multiple Lingering Souls. That's assuming they don't bring in graveyard hate(which I dont see why they would only hitting Souls).
Assemble is fine, I said that a few posts back. SG is fine too. The pithing needle plan just seems pointless to go down a card for something shouldn't be a factor. Like what I am saying is why are you getting into those situations in the first place and then relying on Pithing Needle to bail you out. The only real play those decks have against you is the Verdict, the other times, they really aren't doing much. So again, not sure why you want such a defensive sideboard card.
If you are going to hold the Pithing Needle for their threats, why are not just casting Slaughter Games/Duress/Appetite for their relevant cards namely their board wipes?
Also, the amount of mana Aetherling takes to play defense/offense is something that Esper/UWR can't generate reasonably a fair amount of time. Against Bant you really shouldn't be boarding in Pithing Needles.
Lastly, I am saying it again, my experience playing against Pithing Needle has been very bleh as a Esper and Bant player.
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United States24779 Posts
I drafted m14 today for the first time. I first-picked a Jace and ended up going UW mill. I milled a couple of people and went 2-3. I didn't expect to do that well haha. I had a millstone, two scours, the creature that lets you return an instant/sorcery to your hand, and a lot of stall tactics. My favorite moment was at the end of the last game when I had a scour in my hand and a Jace out and I announced 'mill 15'.
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Jace is good enough to you not have to mill, he can solo-mill players with no help.
Should clarify, *to not have to go deep into a mill strategy.
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On July 20 2013 14:00 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 13:18 Shotcoder wrote:
BWR isn't based on grinding you out. It's based on pummeling you in the face with superior top decks. If I can nullify your win conditions then I essentially just have to not deck myself. Which is why the sideboard plan vs control is so "conservative". But honestly I don't see how Assemble is conservative at all, they're all proactive ways of dealing with problem cards.
Needle, why is it so good? The deck runs no instant speed removal to aetherling, at all. If we're playing average hands you will win with aetherling most of the time because I have zero ways to interact with it and you can just chump all day if you efficiently use your mana. Pithing Needle is absurd if you understand the weaknesses of your deck and use it to smooth out those weaknesses. Hence why it comes in vs those cards. Jace(either of them) really isn't an issue for the deck, Aetherling and drownyard on the other hand are insanely hard to handle because of the lack of interaction the deck has.
BWR also plays the control deck in almost every match not against Bant/Esper/UWR(non resto version). In those match-ups I essentially have to nullify win cons and draw multiple Lingering Souls. That's assuming they don't bring in graveyard hate(which I dont see why they would only hitting Souls). Assemble is fine, I said that a few posts back. SG is fine too. The pithing needle plan just seems pointless to go down a card for something shouldn't be a factor. Like what I am saying is why are you getting into those situations in the first place and then relying on Pithing Needle to bail you out. The only real play those decks have against you is the Verdict, the other times, they really aren't doing much. So again, not sure why you want such a defensive sideboard card. If you are going to hold the Pithing Needle for their threats, why are not just casting Slaughter Games/Duress/Appetite for their relevant cards namely their board wipes? Also, the amount of mana Aetherling takes to play defense/offense is something that Esper/UWR can't generate reasonably a fair amount of time. Against Bant you really shouldn't be boarding in Pithing Needles. Lastly, I am saying it again, my experience playing against Pithing Needle has been very bleh as a Esper and Bant player.
You bring in better cards against decks than the cards you currently have right?
Pillar of Flame offers nothing in the control match up other than a shock, basically irrelevant. Nearheath Pilgrim is an aggro deck hoser and a 2/1 for 2 vs control isn't worth the spot either(also why he isn't in my current 75). Aurelia is also poor as she is easily removed or is simply too much mana for your deck to cost. Searing spear is questionable also but can stay because it does 3 damage instead of 2, and Warleader's Helix is also fine if they're playing Restos.
So this leaves you with 7 possible slots.
3 assemble and 2 Slaughter games are a must. Essentially an unanswerable threat and a catch all.
I would also rather have a hoser to things like Jace, or Aetherling over Pilgrim or Pillar.
Also think about numbers, I would much rather SG Relevation or Verdict simply because of the number of those they are running and the possibility of them having them in their hand. THat's essentially my logic behind it.
Your main deck is essentially poised to crush most aggro and midrange decks if you don't keep a bad hand or draw poorly. Which is essentially why you just run 1 up's like Conscripts or things that answer big threats like devour for Bant Hexproof and Sever for Lingering souls/Reckoners/Voices and RiP for Rites decks.
Idk maybe I'm wrong in the way i sideboard.
Sidenote: Pilgrim isn't in my current 75, Searing spear is slowly becoming more Dreadbores and more Warleader Helix's.
Edit: Also unless you are curving out perfectly, you wont pressure control decks enough to just outrace them. Your first play typically doesnt happen until turn 3 when you cast Reckoner or Lingering souls.
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I think Pithing Needle is fine. It sees a good amount of play in Block sideboards and while Block isn't Standard, Needle hits a lot of the same things (AEtherling, planeswalkers). Slaughter Games is better but I'd rather have the 1st Needle before the 3rd Slaughter Games. It's not like the BWR deck's curve is so perfect that you just never have time to cast a Needle.
That said, I think I'd rather have the 4th Sin Collector and/or some number of Duress/Appetite/Lifebane before I had Pithing Needle. I don't hate Needle and I don't really mind having it in the 75 in any case.
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EPT
