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On May 02 2013 02:58 Risen wrote:
When nearly half of a list is going to be controlled by an almost unchangeable land base, yes, 8 cards is a huge difference.
Lands in Legacy is still known as lands no matter what configuration of lands you use. Death and Taxes is still known as death and taxes even if it's splashing for Green. The Deck names are the same because the play style is the same and have the same end goal.
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The game plan of the esper walkers deck is more of:
Resolve Planeswalker
Protect planeswalker with weenies, removal, counterspells
Win with planeswalker ult
Whereas esper control is more of a draw-go sort of thing that mills people out with end-step drownyard and runs tons of instant speed removal.
The only PWs I run are Tamiyo and 5-Jace, both as one-ofs personally.
So I think the major difference between the esper PW deck and traditional esper control is wincon, and that is enough to distinguish one from the other.
Also 2 sphinx revs.
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Yes, the approach is very different. Esper Walkers does not play the same as Esper Control. Walkers are much more prone to tap out on their own turn. They're playing the PWs as active threats no different from a Thragtusk or Olivia. Esper Control rarely wants to do that outside of Verdicts and Cleansings. Walkers do not need Drownyard to win, its more or less in there as alt win-con, you can't say that's true for Control. Play both decks and then make the claim with a 8 card difference is inconsequential.
This isn't the same as Caw-Blade or Wolf-Run splashing for a different color or utilizing a different approach around a single card (like TWoo's Robot Wolf-Run deck). The core of the decks are fundamentally different, Control relies on stringing together Revelations, Shaheen clearly had 0 intentions of doing that.
You are more than welcome to point to other decks that run Sorin, I know quite a few that do, but I also know that they probably haven't tested it all the way through and realize that the card while nice in some spots, do nothing in others.
I use to think Sorin was good against Esper too, for the same reasons that you two thought, then you realize that there are so many things that just flat out make the Sorin lines so average.
Look, Jack Fogle took my original deck, top-8ed with it when it had Sorin in it, by his next top 8 we (both me and him independently, he was much quicker) already moved away from it despite numerous people recognizing that Esper is a potent deck, think BDD had an article on it at the time as the deck you should play. Same with PV.
Other people have noticed that the card choice in Esper is extremely important that there are so many different ways of building it, and they all play differently. This isn't something like splash a color to have access to these cards, this is I can do this now versus I can't do that now, two very different concepts.
If you don't believe me, play the two decks. Don't think any player would say that Esper Control and Esper Walkers are the same deck.
Edit:
If you want to think about it differently, why are you sideboarding certain cards in, you probably won't board the same way you do for control than for walkers, nor would you play the match up the same way for one as you would for the other. So why is it the same.
Are you going to seriously tell me and everyone here that Sneak and Show is the same as Show and Tell as Omni/Tell in Legacy? Just because they play the same Show and Tell card? Nevermind, you are saying what I said earlier in this post.
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Judicator what are your thoughts on Far//Away in esper control? I was thinking of perhaps replacing a copy of devour flesh or ultimate price with that, since Far offers decent tempo removal against mana dorks/Early aggro and Away is pretty much a decent (if slightly overcosted, but Far should make up for it) version of devour flesh
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I like it in BUG, haven't actually tested it in Esper, I would imagine it would be good. But I will say this, in BUG, I was using it to really squash their board presence when I have threats on board already, like Thrags and whatnot in the slower match ups. I have no idea how it would play in Esper since you don't have some kind of quick threat. It seems pretty good against Obzedat. There's an Ultimate Price in my Esper list right now that I really do not like, I'll try it out as a 1-of and see how it goes.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 01 2013 12:29 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 07:03 EMIYA wrote:
naya midrange looking any better with DGM?
not sure how great tajic will be, but im still looking to find a way to use my promo firemane avengers. aurelia too of course Play Thragtusk. +5 life Play Resto Angel. +10 life and 3/3 Play Legion's Initiative. +15 life and 3/3 Bounce the Thragtusk again with your Resto. +20 life and 2 3/3s. 11 mana = +20 life, 5/3, 2 3/3s, 3/4. yep, Midranged Naya just got real.
You know you're jaded when you read that and all you can think of is "With 11 mana I could storm your face for lethal."
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By the way, 5 + 4 + 2 + 2 = 13, not 11. Legion's Initiative costs 2 mana to cast and 2 mana to activate.
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Wow the idiocy in this thread. I believe I just read that Sorin is bad in esper control but if sorin is in esper control it isn't actually esper control because it is then esper walkers? Really now?
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On May 02 2013 16:55 DEN1ED wrote:
Wow the idiocy in this thread. I believe I just read that Sorin is bad in esper control but if sorin is in esper control it isn't actually esper control because it is then esper walkers? Really now?
Your reading comprehension skills need work then if that's what you got out of all that :S
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On May 02 2013 18:32 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 16:55 DEN1ED wrote:
Wow the idiocy in this thread. I believe I just read that Sorin is bad in esper control but if sorin is in esper control it isn't actually esper control because it is then esper walkers? Really now? Your reading comprehension skills need work then if that's what you got out of all that :S
Ditto, to be fair, it was convoluted argument.
The two decks plays about similarly as Esper Spirits did compared to Geist-based Delver.
Edit:
The argument is also over whether Sorin's good against Esper, it's just alright, not great, not that big of a deal.
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when does day9 play in the GP? he attending stil?
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So I've been playing around with the idea of making like a Jund sort of scavenge / aggro deck for standard. I feel it would be pretty decent? I'm not looking for anything that's looking to do well in tournaments etc, just a reasonable deck that holds it's own in say an FNM and play with friends. But I just want to ask is this even reasonably viable? Seeing as 2 of the bigger threats can regenerate it feels rather hard to kill and they get pretty big pretty fast. Given you keep something up for regen, the biggest answer would be terminus I guess??
I haven't done any actualy playtesting yet but I'm looking at like
+ Show Spoiler +4x Vexing Devil
4x Rakdos Cackler ( or Gravecrawler )
4x Spike Jester
4x Lotloth Troll
4x Rakdos Shred-Freak (Or Strangleroot Geist?)
4x Varolz, the Scar Striped
4x Dreg Mangler
4x Pillar of Flame
3x Grisly Salvage
2x Putrefy
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Don't think you want Pillar. I would almost want Brimstone Volley depending on how easy it is for you to trigger morbid.
I have seen this deck around online when I was play testing, the Spike Jester draws are pretty potent. I want to say that you should look into if there's someway you abuse Burning Tree Emissary in that deck so you can really lay in the aggro with the Scavenge sub theme.
The deck can be pretty aggressive from my 3 or so matches with it.
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Ah kk, my main idea just behind the pillar was to sort of to cover Voice, but I guess that is far from my main concern. Also, I've thought about abusing Burning-Tree's but it's just in that deck so many of the cards actually work by getting bigger after they hit I feel, like experiments and flinthoofs which don't work with Varolz and really the only one that is used in those decks I'd feel good using is like lightning mauler, but that's just far too limited on what I can cast w/ the emissary. I'll look around a bit and perhaps find some things that actually should go in :3
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Don't take my word for it, I just haven't seen Pillar in red decks recently, that doesn't mean it's not a good card. Suggestions doesn't mean you should do it right away. Play test it and see how it works out.
I didn't mean Burning Tree into Flinthoofs, I am saying to explore if there are ways for you utilize a more potent turn 2 by playing 2 creatures off of Burning Tree, dunno.
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I don't really have any experience with standard deck construction so sorry if this is a naive question. Does straight 3 colors work in agro decks? It seems rough on lands to me.
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Its good enough in Standard right now. Any 2 duals lands can turn on 3 colors and most likely a double single color.
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On May 03 2013 10:27 Azuzu wrote:
I don't really have any experience with standard deck construction so sorry if this is a naive question. Does straight 3 colors work in agro decks? It seems rough on lands to me.
The problem here is most of the best aggro cards are double color costs. At least from a red deck perspective. It really depends on if you want to go overthetop aggro or slide under. I think if you have some long game plan with aristos thundermaws and bonfire you can do 3 color otherwise do 1-2 color or 3 color blitz but blitz is bad atm.
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On May 03 2013 11:23 whatwhatanut wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 10:27 Azuzu wrote:
I don't really have any experience with standard deck construction so sorry if this is a naive question. Does straight 3 colors work in agro decks? It seems rough on lands to me. The problem here is most of the best aggro cards are double color costs. At least from a red deck perspective. It really depends on if you want to go overthetop aggro or slide under. I think if you have some long game plan with aristos thundermaws and bonfire you can do 3 color otherwise do 1-2 color or 3 color blitz but blitz is bad atm.
Did the meta shift against it?
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I can't imagine wanting to play Blitz in a world of maindeck Electrickery and Fog. Then again I can't really imagine wanting to play Blitz to begin with zzz
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EPT
