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On February 22 2012 01:25 solidbebe wrote:
I'm sad that neverwinter nights 2 was made by obsidian and not by the company that made 1 which I believe was bioware. The gameplay and style of 1 is just so much better than 2 imo. I really can't put enough emphasis on the style, I don't know why but nwn 1 just had this beautiful unique style with those big hand painted weapons in your inventory and pretty menus and the hand painted portraits. NWN 2 just misses this. ( along with some other flaws)
Strange. For me NW2 is far better than NW1. I really disliked the one main char one companion stuff that they did there. Completly destroyed the game for me. Having a big group of companions is a thing that i enjoy really in RPG since BG2.
Even for the story i liked NW2 more than NW1. And the interface is really good if you play the game longer you get used to it.
Of course BG2 is the best RPG that i know but for me NW2 + first expansion comes right after BG2.
The second expansion of NW2 is really bad, biggest disappointment ever.
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On February 21 2012 23:33 Billy_ wrote:
I don't think Obsidian is so superb at the moment... the ratio of good to bad has been tipping a bit a while now, but they were amazing when they were known as Black Isle.
I think they started slipping since NWN2s average campaign and grindy gameplay with bad camera. Expansions were good, I still have to replay restored KotOR 2 (it was good enough for me to play multiple times in it's originla state so there you go...)
The thing with Obsidian is that they're always sort of picking up someone else's scraps with regard to the tech side of things, which means they're always using someone's hand-me-down engine and end up with really buggy releases.
This was fine when it was the Infinity Engine, because the Infinity Engine is amazing. But the Aurora engine sucks. It sucked in NWN1, and it sucked more when Obsidian tried to retool a 4 year old game engine for NWN2. It ran poorly, didn't look that great, and was buggy as hell.
That said, I still believe that MotB is worth a playthrough for everyone. Don't sit through the original campaign, but definitely play MotB if you have the chance.
On February 21 2012 23:33 Billy_ wrote:
AP was... bold to say the least. Had great ideas, but the gameplay felt like it was rushed... level design was just a typical third person shooter popamole (very boring), without any of the fun you can have with ME2s biotic throw, pull, and charge.
AP could have been so much better. The stuff they tried was great, but they had to shove it out the door because somewhere down the line they botched their relations with Sega.
The game is cool for the prequel chapter, and then it degenerates into the stereotypical Bioware/Obsidian formula. At least the writing was decent the whole way through (which is par for the course with Obsidian).
On February 21 2012 23:33 Billy_ wrote:
New Vegas was good, and it had it's flaws but those can mostly be attributed to Bethesdas engine.
Obsidian had the great fortune of being best at what Bethesda's Fallout 3 team was worst at (writing/dialogue), so the improvement going from FO3 to NV is enormous.
On February 21 2012 23:33 Billy_ wrote:
All this talk that Obsidian are having over the conspet of a kickstarter is encouraging... if nothing else, it proves that they're still passionate about what they do and are willing to sacrifice the money of working on big, established IPs for the chance to make something that they love. I was concerned that they'd be too afraid to take risks because of APs commercial failure.
IIRC AP went the way it did because of some corporate relations fuckup between Obsidian and Sega, so I don't think the developers are that hung up on it anyway.
On February 22 2012 01:25 solidbebe wrote:
I'm sad that neverwinter nights 2 was made by obsidian and not by the company that made 1 which I believe was bioware. The gameplay and style of 1 is just so much better than 2 imo. I really can't put enough emphasis on the style, I don't know why but nwn 1 just had this beautiful unique style with those big hand painted weapons in your inventory and pretty menus and the hand painted portraits. NWN 2 just misses this. ( along with some other flaws)
If there's one thing Bioware can do correctly, it's "style" and "polish".
Unfortunately, I'd argue those are really the only things Bioware can do correctly. Combat in both games is pretty shitty, but at least Obsidian's writers know how to write. David Gaider can't for the life of him write original characters, so every Bioware game since BG2 has just been recycling BG2's character archetypes.
On February 22 2012 02:48 Uracil wrote:
The second expansion of NW2 is really bad, biggest disappointment ever.
Dunno what Obsidian was thinking with SoZ personally. The whole gameplay of SoZ revolves around 1) something the Aurora Engine is bad at (world map, world interaction, dungeon crawling), and 2) something Obsidian is bad at (combat design, dungeon crawling).
I guess it's good that the devs get more experience with that sort of stuff for future games, but what they got out of SoZ was pretty disappointing.
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I liked SoZ more than original 2, but that's probably mainly because original forced you to have party members and shit. I like to solo things. I soloed things in IWD and IWD2, I did it in NWN and I never even finished NWN2 original because I got so fed up of those companions by mid game I just quit.
But overall, SoZ was pretty damn bad, so unbelievably buggy game. Hordes of the Underdark best.
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On February 22 2012 04:34 TheYango wrote:
Unfortunately, I'd argue those are really the only things Bioware can do correctly. Combat in both games is pretty shitty, but at least Obsidian's writers know how to write. David Gaider can't for the life of him write original characters, so every Bioware game since BG2 has just been recycling BG2's character archetypes.
Can't agree with that at all. I can hardly find any recycling when it comes to bioware characters. Most mass effect characters were unique. So were the NPCs in Kotor1 and the Dragon Age series. Varric, Garrus, Tali, Liara, Jolee, Merril were all pretty unique just to name a few. I have come to appreciate most of the characters that Bioware has created over the years.
The characters in the original nwn2 on the other hand had to be some of the most boring and unoriginal NPCs I've ever seen. Neeshka is basically a bad version of Mission Vao from Kotor, cassavir is beyond boring, elanee was the most basic stereotype of a wood elf, bishop was the typical evil dude, the dwarf could have been any random dwarf in any fantasy story...
Also the "style & polish" stuff first came with DA2. Kotor, DA:Origins or Jade Empire didn't have their focus on style and polish and they were great games. So sayin that that's the only things Bioware can do is just not true. Even ME1 had its focus on creating a universe and a story instead of stylish gameplay features.
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On February 22 2012 06:45 AntiGrav1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:34 TheYango wrote:
Unfortunately, I'd argue those are really the only things Bioware can do correctly. Combat in both games is pretty shitty, but at least Obsidian's writers know how to write. David Gaider can't for the life of him write original characters, so every Bioware game since BG2 has just been recycling BG2's character archetypes.
Can't agree with that at all. I can hardly find any recycling when it comes to bioware characters. Most mass effect characters were unique. So were the NPCs in Kotor1 and the Dragon Age series. Varric, Garrus, Tali, Liara, Jolee, Merril were all pretty unique just to name a few. I have come to appreciate most of the characters that Bioware has created over the years. The characters in the original nwn2 on the other hand had to be some of the most boring and unoriginal NPCs I've ever seen. Neeshka is basically a bad version of Mission Vao from Kotor, cassavir is beyond boring, elanee was the most basic stereotype of a wood elf, bishop was the typical evil dude, the dwarf could have been any random dwarf in any fantasy story... Also the "style & polish" stuff first came with DA2. Kotor, DA:Origins or Jade Empire didn't have their focus on style and polish and they were great games. So sayin that that's the only things Bioware can do is just not true. Even ME1 had its focus on creating a universe and a story instead of stylish gameplay features.
Neeshka was the most annoying BITCH GODD I HATED THAT WOMAN, that ANNOYING voice and just whining about everything and everything would you SHUT... UP!
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United States47024 Posts
On February 22 2012 06:45 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
Can't agree with that at all. I can hardly find any recycling when it comes to bioware characters. Most mass effect characters were unique. So were the NPCs in Kotor1 and the Dragon Age series. Varric, Garrus, Tali, Liara, Jolee, Merril were all pretty unique just to name a few. I have come to appreciate most of the characters that Bioware has created over the years.
Ok, so you're going to ignore Carth, Bastila, Morrigan, Alistair, Mission, Leliana, Kaiden, etc. being some of the biggest stand-out recycled trope characters in the genre?
EDIT: I should also point out that David Gaider didn't work on Mass Effect.
On February 22 2012 06:45 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
The characters in the original nwn2 on the other hand had to be some of the most boring and unoriginal NPCs I've ever seen. Neeshka is basically a bad version of Mission Vao from Kotor, cassavir is beyond boring, elanee was the most basic stereotype of a wood elf, bishop was the typical evil dude, the dwarf could have been any random dwarf in any fantasy story...
I'll grant you the NWN2 OC characters suck, but that's also probably the lowest point of Obsidian's game development history.
MotB made up for it by having characters that meet the standards they set for themselves in previous fare like PS:T.
On February 22 2012 06:45 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
Also the "style & polish" stuff first came with DA2. Kotor, DA:Origins or Jade Empire didn't have their focus on style and polish and they were great games. So sayin that that's the only things Bioware can do is just not true. Even ME1 had its focus on creating a universe and a story instead of stylish gameplay features.
No, I'm fairly sure "style and polish" being the only thing Bioware is good at is an opinion that people have held since KotOR I. Certainly that's the only credit I gave the game. It's a good introduction to the genre because of the overall good design values. But the story is shallow, as is the quest design. Character interaction is A STEP BACKWARD from BG2's NPCs, as are the moral choices and consequences (virtually all choices are black and white and have no ramifications beyond "+Light Side Points" or "+Dark Side Points"). Combat and character building are poorly balanced simplifications of D&D combat, with its problems being made worse by atrocious encounter design (is there a single fight in the whole game that could be called a challenge?). It's simplicity makes it a great starting point for a newcomer to the genre, but I have a hard time believing a genre veteran would find it a deep and engaging experience compared to BG2, PST, or Fallout.
And of course, with Bioware, you have the ubiquitous "Bioware fake choices" -- where you're provided with a list of dialogue options that seemingly represent a series of distinct choices, but ultimately result in the exact same practical outcome. Mass Effect made these even more obvious by having Shepard produce THE SAME DIALOGUE despite selecting different dialogue options.
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On February 22 2012 06:45 AntiGrav1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:34 TheYango wrote:
Unfortunately, I'd argue those are really the only things Bioware can do correctly. Combat in both games is pretty shitty, but at least Obsidian's writers know how to write. David Gaider can't for the life of him write original characters, so every Bioware game since BG2 has just been recycling BG2's character archetypes.
Can't agree with that at all. I can hardly find any recycling when it comes to bioware characters. Most mass effect characters were unique. So were the NPCs in Kotor1 and the Dragon Age series. Varric, Garrus, Tali, Liara, Jolee, Merril were all pretty unique just to name a few. I have come to appreciate most of the characters that Bioware has created over the years. The characters in the original nwn2 on the other hand had to be some of the most boring and unoriginal NPCs I've ever seen. Neeshka is basically a bad version of Mission Vao from Kotor, cassavir is beyond boring, elanee was the most basic stereotype of a wood elf, bishop was the typical evil dude, the dwarf could have been any random dwarf in any fantasy story...
Eh, I felt a ton of the ME characters were very stereotyped. Kaidan and Ashley had no real personality besides what was brought out in them detailing their history (lengthily), Liara and Tali were generic shy intelligent girls that will only break out of their shyness due to their extreme desire to jump the main character (nerd fantasies 101). In general, the lack of character interaction besides talking to them directly means they have no character besides what they outright explain to you.
NWN2 falls pretty flat too, just as you say - Bishop had a little more interest to him, I feel, just because he went against the usual 'Ranger who utilizes nature' to be a Ranger who is controlled by nature, and ends up more animalistic than any human character. His betrayal was predictable, not because it was 'for teh evilz', but because animals prioritize survival and escape above all, and that's his character. As for the rest... meh.
MotB does a lot better in that all the characters have personal attachment to the main quest in some thematic way, similar to PS:T. The two are incredibly similar in that the companions are looking to resolve their own personal conflict through helping you through yours.
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Gog is having a buy one get one free sale for RPGs so you can buy the first BG and get the second free for just 9.99. I'm on a mac and can run it through wine, I'm really thinking about picking it up after reading this thread. I played it for a bit when I was younger but I never got the chance to truly appreciate just how good the game was. If anyone needs assistance on how to run it on mac (and not through bootcamp or whatever) feel free to PM me.
http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/baldurs_gate_the_original_saga
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I know why i said most characters and not all, so don't go naming every single character...
And if with "people" you actually mean yourself then ok. Because there are quite a few people who actually think that Kotor is one of the all time great rpgs out there.
Of course everything is a stepback from BG2 but nobody else has made anything close to BG2, so exclusicely criticizing Bioware doesnt work. If say the characters are worse than they were in BG2 then that goes for every single studio out there.
I don't even know what you're trying to say. Most RPGs dont even have any choices or even decent dialogue, so i appreciate the choices that you can make in bioware games. If you are saying that bioware is not a good studio then okay, that's ur opinion.
Basically you just named a few flaws that you found but let me tell you i can name a list flaws in any game. Bottom line is that there are rarely rpgs out there that are more compelling than the likes of Kotor or Jade Empire.
Dont agree with Tali being the typical shy nerd btw. The quarian culture and rite of pilgrimage actually made her a very unique character. Also ther is stereotypes in every character. That's because people like to categorize other people. But bioware characters are hardly a copy of their old characters.
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On February 22 2012 09:05 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
Dont agree with Tali being the typical shy nerd btw. The quarian culture and rite of pilgrimage actually made her a very unique character. Also ther is stereotypes in every character. That's because people like to categorize other people. But bioware characters are hardly a copy of their old characters.
I disagree, a lot of the Quarian characterization for Tali was just 'I'm fragile and delicate' and made her feel like another Aerie. As for not being the 'typical shy nerd', uh, I'm going to have to say 'yes, she is'.
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Well then thats you pigeonholing people in my opinion. Aerie has never been outside the circus, never seen anything, cant live on her own and whines all the time.
Quarians have to travel the galaxy on their own looking for valuable stuff for their community. Tali hacks into geth material and trys to make a deal with the shadow broker.
Tali is a little naive but travels on her own and does her stuff pretty much on her own, Aerie is very insecure and highly dependant, so they are basically the same person? There is only so many ways a person can be created you know.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 22 2012 09:05 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
And if with "people" you actually mean yourself then ok. Because there are quite a few people who actually think that Kotor is one of the all time great rpgs out there.
Many of those people also think games like Supreme Commander and DoW are better RTS games than Brood War.
On February 22 2012 09:05 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
Of course everything is a stepback from BG2 but nobody else has made anything close to BG2, so exclusicely criticizing Bioware doesnt work. If say the characters are worse than they were in BG2 then that goes for every single studio out there.
Nonsense. The first 2 Fallouts, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment--all are equal to or better than BG2 in their own way.
BG2 is hardly unique in its excellence in the RPG genre. That nothing recently has met its standard doesn't mean I have to start calling the recent fare good.
On February 22 2012 09:05 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
I don't even know what you're trying to say. Most RPGs dont even have any choices or even decent dialogue, so i appreciate the choices that you can make in bioware games. If you are saying that bioware is not a good studio then okay, that's ur opinion.
I think Bioware, given the vast amount of resources behind them in comparison to other studios, has made poor use of the ability and influence they could have had in pushing the RPG genre forward. Admittedly they are not the only ones I fault for this (Bethesda as well), and I accept that producing conservative, regurgitated games that the mass market will buy is the best way for them to make money, but that doesn't mean I have to stoop to calling Bioware games good.
Given that studios that are poorer off than Bioware like Obsidian, CD Projekt, or even indie developers like Spiderweb Software have produced comparable or better games than Bioware has with vastly inferior resources, I think Bioware could be doing a lot better.
On February 22 2012 09:05 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
Basically you just named a few flaws that you found but let me tell you i can name a list flaws in any game. Bottom line is that most RPGs dont even have any choices or even decent dialogue, so i appreciate the choices that you can make in bioware games and there are rarely rpgs out there that are more compelling than the likes of Kotor or Jade Empire.
Again, most games are shit, so i have to call a game that's slightly less shit good?
Somewhat an exaggeration. As I said, I think KotOR is a good gateway game to get someone interested in the CRPG genre (as it's light on the deep stuff, and is fairly polished), but I really don't see it as a must-play for anyone well versed in the genre already. It's hardly a meaningful experience in that regard.
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You expanded my look at the 'fragile/damaged' concept into a comment on the entirety of both the character and their involvement of the plot. Obviously if you extend things past their context, you'll find a point to refute/
But sure, Tali hacks into Geth material - and Aerie throws fire and heals wounds. They have their area of expertise, because they're video game characters and need a focus. They're both naive (Tali's 'deal with the shadow broker' was a product of her naivety, requiring you to save her) , act insecure in character interaction, and are obsessive regarding the main character.
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About NWN2: I prefer to think that this horrible accident wasn't written by any of Obsidians core team, and it doesn't seem consistent with anything they've written before or after. The whole game like something out of Bioware.
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On February 22 2012 09:23 TheYango wrote:
Nonsense. The first 2 Fallouts, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment--all are equal to or better than BG2 in their own way.
Hum Arcanum, Arcanum, barely ever heared of this game and never played it but I'd assume if it's in the same sentence as BG2 and PST, it's probably good. Should I try it? Knowing that the reason I have a big preference for BG2 over PST is that beside good story / character developpement / background, what I like in a RPG is a challenging and strategic combat system (which BG2 with the proper tweaks is a lot about).
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On February 22 2012 19:05 Merany wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 09:23 TheYango wrote:
Nonsense. The first 2 Fallouts, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment--all are equal to or better than BG2 in their own way. Hum Arcanum, Arcanum, barely ever heared of this game and never played it but I'd assume if it's in the same sentence as BG2 and PST, it's probably good. Should I try it? Knowing that the reason I have a big preference for BG2 over PST is that beside good story / character developpement / background, what I like in a RPG is a challenging and strategic combat system (which BG2 with the proper tweaks is a lot about).
Arcanum is good. Not that good as the others but still.
What I liked most was the steampunk world it was into.
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OH MY GOD HELP!
I just installed the big world patch that installs a bazillion patches for bg2 and now I get random crashes whenever I open the inventory.
Pls halp!
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did you have throne of baal installed? i think thats a requierment for big world.
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On February 22 2012 19:44 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +Nonsense. The first 2 Fallouts, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment--all are equal to or better than BG2 in their own way. Arcanum? No (of course still good). FO's and PST? amazing games and comparable to bg2. if you think or dont think they are as good as bg2 is pure opinion. imo bg2 is better in most aspects.
I believe that Fallout, PST and BG should be considered 3 separate masterpiecies, i knew some people who loved 1 and be only "ok" with others. Different gameplay, different mechanics, different settings, and i loved every.
Fallout(1 and 2) was one of few best sci-fi masterpieces in video gaming, you play the way you want (a specially in Fallout 2), every aspect of the game was brilliant from dialogs to rpg elements of character creating to the plot, however what bought me to call it probably one of the best things you can play was simply the setting (post apocalyptic, with heavy sci-fi theme). And everything being properly balanced.
PST was more set into story telling and the game gets kinda "old" after 1st run, however just as i praised fallout for setting i cannot close my eyes on this one, for some people its just the best rpg universe presented in crpgs ever, for me its tied to fallout because im sci-fi geek. I also love the fact that PST seems to be not exatcly a hardcore "medieval" fantasy but rather some kind of a spawn of it just in different parrarel universe , and it worked great, sarcastic flying skull? Main character being actually immortal and waking up in the morgue? Ye, that was the anti-thesis of FR like game such as BG, and people either loved it or hate it. It got the praise AFTER some time, with people realising how good it actually was.
BG 1/2was awesome, the balance between journey/fights/plot was great. The story for me wasnt as lasting as PST/Fall but generally it was the most played due its rich gameplay and epic fights.
All of those titles had top notch visual/audio works. I remember when i played BG1 for the first time, like week after its launch, i couldn't believe such audio visual rpg could exist.
Ah and Arcanum was a tragic title, the ambitions were great, but the game was bugged as hell, and the animations were "stiff", i didnt like the combat also, the game failed at technicalities which was a sad view, as people at that time really wanted people from Black Isle doing next RPG. Still good game, but a let-down nonetheless.
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