EPTI'd be for it if i thought the Eagles could like, win the super bowl with vick, but that's impossible with the team they have right now.
NFL Season 2010 - Page 41
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
I'd be for it if i thought the Eagles could like, win the super bowl with vick, but that's impossible with the team they have right now. | ||
GTR
51523 Posts
Defense: Packers or Cardinals? (Leaning towards Packers but with the Cards playing the Raiders, wouldn't surprise me with their wild inconsistency). Flex: Clayton (vs WAS), Barber (vs CHI), Taylor (vs BUF), Stewart (vs CIN) [Going towards Clayton at the moment although might consider Fred Taylor as NE traded away Maroney and BUF is a nice match up. Also; worth trading for McFadden? Was thinking Ochocinco, as I have Holmes on my bench anyway, or dumping some of my useless backs and hoping he bites. | ||
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nGBeast
United States914 Posts
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tonight
United States11130 Posts
On September 21 2010 19:21 Ace wrote: who the hell gave up Frank Gore for anything other than a top 5 first round pick? With AP + Gore and Moreno at Flex even a bad WR core isn't going to stop him from doing damage. He doesn't have an elite QB too does he? I wanted to appeal the trade, but couldn't since he gave up three decent enough players. His QB is Romo. He has the most dominate backs now by far. I was working to get Gore from the original owner too, but I guess I wasn't willing to give up as much. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32112 Posts
On September 22 2010 13:37 Judicator wrote: Or maybe its a win now rather than later perspective, I doubt the Philly fans forget about Vince Young and the Titans last year. You mean the same Vince Young that got benched again this weekend?? All VY did was manage to have a few games were he wasn't a god awful turnover machine, and those games coincided with Chris Johnson absolutely running wild. During that 5 game win streak in the middle of the season, Johnson well over 150 yards of total offense every game. He outgained his quarterback in total yards for all but one of those games. At least Vick has legitimately had a couple good games here and there, and he did it without the support of arguably the best RB in the game. (People just seem to forget that his 66% completion is about 11% off his 8 year career average) The whole just win argument is every bit as stupid as judging a player's skill by rings. Someone please argue that Terry Bradshaw was in the same league as Marino. On September 22 2010 13:47 KOFgokuon wrote: ehhhhhh eagles aren't relaly in a win now situation. They still need to re-tool their O-line, and most of their players are in the 24-28 range which is a bit young to really be making a run. The logic behind benching Kolb to protect him kind aof makes sense......but at the same time he really needs real game reps if he ever wnats to get better. Playing against practice squad players and working out only gets you so far This also sums up my thoughts quite nicely. Kolb already rode bench behind McNabb for like three years. He either needs real experience at this point or he isn't worth it. You can look at Vick's season totals for his career and get a good idea of what you'll get: 2,500 yds, ~55%, 15td, 10int or so, and anywhere from 500-800yds rushing possibly (he seems to not be as apt to run now, and that's a lot easier to change than turning yourself into an efficient passer). Kolb's more a pure passer--which seems to be Reid's type of guy--who has put up over 300yds in each of his two starts. Stoopid football writers: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?entry_id=72685 bonus submission for piss poor football coverage! http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_bianchi/2010/09/peyton-manning-eli-manning-colts-giants-gators.html | ||
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SweeTLemonS[TPR]
11739 Posts
On September 22 2010 18:39 GTR wrote: Wondering for this week.... Defense: Packers or Cardinals? (Leaning towards Packers but with the Cards playing the Raiders, wouldn't surprise me with their wild inconsistency). Flex: Clayton (vs WAS), Barber (vs CHI), Taylor (vs BUF), Stewart (vs CIN) [Going towards Clayton at the moment although might consider Fred Taylor as NE traded away Maroney and BUF is a nice match up. Also; worth trading for McFadden? Was thinking Ochocinco, as I have Holmes on my bench anyway, or dumping some of my useless backs and hoping he bites. Barber isn't playing Chicago; he goes against Houston. I wouldn't play him either way. I wouldn't even have him on my roster though. I'd go with that Fred Taylor idea, despite a poor showing last week. Definitely the best option you have, imo. I would check WW for other D's. The Bears offense is for real. On September 22 2010 18:52 nGBeast wrote: I would go with the Packers, I believe campbell was benched for Bruce Gradkowski, theres no way in hell they are gonna score more then 3. Bruce is the fucking man. He was the high point of that team last season when he played. On September 22 2010 22:34 Hawk wrote: You mean the same Vince Young that got benched again this weekend?? All VY did was manage to have a few games were he wasn't a god awful turnover machine, and those games coincided with Chris Johnson absolutely running wild. During that 5 game win streak in the middle of the season, Johnson well over 150 yards of total offense every game. He outgained his quarterback in total yards for all but one of those games. At least Vick has legitimately had a couple good games here and there, and he did it without the support of arguably the best RB in the game. (People just seem to forget that his 66% completion is about 11% off his 8 year career average) The whole just win argument is every bit as stupid as judging a player's skill by rings. Someone please argue that Terry Bradshaw was in the same league as Marino. This also sums up my thoughts quite nicely. Kolb already rode bench behind McNabb for like three years. He either needs real experience at this point or he isn't worth it. You can look at Vick's season totals for his career and get a good idea of what you'll get: 2,500 yds, ~55%, 15td, 10int or so, and anywhere from 500-800yds rushing possibly (he seems to not be as apt to run now, and that's a lot easier to change than turning yourself into an efficient passer). Kolb's more a pure passer--which seems to be Reid's type of guy--who has put up over 300yds in each of his two starts. Stoopid football writers: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?entry_id=72685 bonus submission for piss poor football coverage! http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_bianchi/2010/09/peyton-manning-eli-manning-colts-giants-gators.html I'm so sick of people playing the race card. VY gets benched because he's shit, and it's a racial thing. Vick gets a job despite being shit, and that gets completely fucking ignored. The worst part is that bullshit like this will hit ESPN and they'll fucking run away with it, and every ill-informed fan will start thinking the NFL is racist. Un-fucking-real. I hope that guy has a massive stroke, and can never write again. Fucking prick. I don't really get the point of that second article either. Why do these people have jobs? That said, TB may not be GOAT (obviously), but top 5-10 is hardly a stretch. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/09/22/eagles/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_sports I think it gives Reid a bit more credit than he's been getting. A young quarterback needs time to mature as he grows in the game. I don't think Kolb has lost one thing. He's a franchise quarterback. He will win games, and championships, for the Eagles. But I think it's a different deal when you go out there and can't make a mistake or you're going to get crucified, which is the way this thing might have gone if he went back in there now. It's a fair point. A lot of people (even in this thread IIRC) were talking about how if Kolb didn't shine this next game he'd be skewered, because the pass defense he's about to face is doing terrible. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32112 Posts
On September 23 2010 01:44 Southlight wrote: I know Peter King often might seem full of shit (and in fairness he may be) but he, along with Gregg Easterbrook, are two of the sportswriters (for the NFL) that I consistently follow. Apparently he went to Reid after the announcement, and here's his little quick report: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/09/22/eagles/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_sports I think it gives Reid a bit more credit than he's been getting. It's a fair point. A lot of people (even in this thread IIRC) were talking about how if Kolb didn't shine this next game he'd be skewered, because the pass defense he's about to face is doing terrible. Nah, sometimes I like King and sometimes I don't. He's hardly the worst out there. But touching on Reid's comments, when did the opinion of fans--much less the opinion of one of the most idiotic and fairweather fanbases in the league--actually factor in the decision making process?? How much heat did he and McNabb face early in his career?? And does he think the same fans that threw batteries at Santa are going to treat Kolb nicer when he eventually gets in after Reid basically said 'We don't want his feelings to get hurt'?? Also, I can't think of a more prime situation to play a young QB in the midst of a controversy. It's a shit secondary they're facing. Yes, he'll get hammered if he doesn't kill it, but if they are that bad and he is that skilled, there's a good chance he;ll do fine. And furthermore, while I don't agree at all with putting Vick in, if that's what he really wanted to do, this was probably the worst way to do it. You think he'd be the first person to fib a bit about a QB's health?? Say he's still banged up and needs another week, have the Drs back it up too... controversy averted, you get at least a free week to see if Vick just had a statistical anomaly of if he's actually improved. It was just an all around very, very piss poor way of handling the entire situation that EVERYONE saw coming from last year. Then again, it's not surprising, since Reid has proven time and time again that he's smart but can't hack it under pressure. | ||
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SweeTLemonS[TPR]
11739 Posts
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Rho_
United States971 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
The flipside is that maybe Kolb has a strong-enough psyche to not be bothered by Vick's presence on the bench, and he would have shrugged off all the "he's not Vick" chatter for the rest of the season. But short of making it into the playoffs and even going deep I think the pressure on him to perform, and perform at a high level, would have been crazy. I don't, and I think more than a handful of people don't, know if Andy Reid saw Vick's ability to perform coming like this. Because the most dangerous thing about having a veteran backup behind a young, unproven starter is when the starter gets knocked out and the veteran starts rallying the team... it can be a career-killer :/ | ||
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SweeTLemonS[TPR]
11739 Posts
Articles like that piss me off, because there's no way a coach can NOT be blamed in that situation. Lombardi should punch himself in the dick for writing that one. Seriously, act as if you're going to score, then get the 2 point conversion? Then when that fails, this dipshit can come back the next day and write about how they shouldn't have used so much time, because two point conversions are only successful 40% of the time (also keep in mind, they barely got the 2). Then they could attempt an onside kick. Were questionable calls made during that game? Of course there were. Was the decision to score as soon as the opportunity presented itself the right decision? Of course it was. 60% of the time you fail on the two point conversion (over half, in case anyone here is as dumb as Lombardi), which means that 6/10 times you're kicking an onside kick (probably lower chances of that succeeding) to try and win the game. What an asshole. | ||
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SweeTLemonS[TPR]
11739 Posts
On September 23 2010 02:35 Southlight wrote: I wouldn't take Reid completely at face value - King points out that tantalizing +10% completion rate that may or may not be an illusion (I'd be skeptical and I was even the guy trying to argue why people are always hyped up about Vick) and you have to believe that had to factor into things. But I think (personally) it's a fair point to bring up the Kolb vs reactions point. I know you usually don't want to bring fan reactions etc. into a personnel decision but when it comes to young QBs and their confidence I think you're treading a tough line where there's no right answer. I feel like, if Kolb went in, he might press himself to perform flawlessly, instead of playing it normal. He might not have. Or he might have. Clearly Reid felt there was the risk, and furthermore the risk of damaging Kolb entirely by putting him in a bad "rearview mirror obsession" mindset. If that's what he's worried about, and I wouldn't fault him for it, I think it's "fair enough" if he went with Vick both in an effort to seek a miracle and to protect Kolb from that bad mindset. The flipside is that maybe Kolb has a strong-enough psyche to not be bothered by Vick's presence on the bench, and he would have shrugged off all the "he's not Vick" chatter for the rest of the season. But short of making it into the playoffs and even going deep I think the pressure on him to perform, and perform at a high level, would have been crazy. I don't, and I think more than a handful of people don't, know if Andy Reid saw Vick's ability to perform coming like this. Because the most dangerous thing about having a veteran backup behind a young, unproven starter is when the starter gets knocked out and the veteran starts rallying the team... it can be a career-killer :/ I don't think there's any doubt that he was brought in for situational play, and he's playing way above expectations right now. The problem is, and Reid will see this by week six or eight, the stats like that won't last against good teams. Vick will, inevitably, fall back to his sub 60% completion, with loads of turnovers. Then he's right back where he started. That could be job-ending for Reid if Vick falls apart this season. That's assuming Reid is the one making the decisions here. I remember him saying he'd veto any propositions to trade McNabb, and look where McNabb is now (not in Philly). | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32112 Posts
On September 23 2010 02:31 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: So it turns out I wasn't that far off at all. Take that, douchebags telling me I was wrong. : D Bout what??? And I didn;t really notice that Jones was getting the start in KC. But that makes sense, cuz you don't pay a runner $5m to back up and get like >30% carries That Niners article is reeeeetarded. He forgot a tiny bit of important context, namely, their clock management is Reid-levels bad and it's Alex Fucking Smith. When he's actually playing good, you roll with it, because that does not happen very much. Furthermore, I'd take my chances with a top 5, Patrick Willis-led defense over an offense spearheaded by a bust like Smith. With Kolb, it is absolutely possible that the front office pushed the Vick thing--evidenced by his flippy floppy McNabb stuff. Forget skill, I have no doubt that Vick brings much more PR and much more money and interest. And certainly, it's possible that his ego is that frail. I didn't really discount that, I just think that even if it is that frail, it's just a poor decision. Find that out and you'll see what his character is like and it will help you going forward, this year, three years down the road, etc. | ||
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SweeTLemonS[TPR]
11739 Posts
On SF: the clock management wasn't terrible in that game. They called time outs at the right time in that game. They just got fucked by some turnovers. Overall, it was a well called game from Mike, his team just didn't execute properly. And I totally meant to put that in there, how well the defense had played, how they have Superman playing MLB for them, etc. They allowed only 22 points from one of the most potent offenses in the game, and they're the absolute strong point of the team. Couple that with the fact that tying the game is, at best, a 40% probability, I'd make the same call every single time. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32112 Posts
I read something after the clusterfuck that was week one that Raye is known in the organization for mubling incoherrently when he calls plays, and this is that much more of a problem because he calls from the booth, relays it to a middle man, who relays to that mormon sonofabitch that has dishonored every quarterback before him. That loss was totally on execution though. After the first, they looked good man. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On September 22 2010 22:34 Hawk wrote: You mean the same Vince Young that got benched again this weekend?? All VY did was manage to have a few games were he wasn't a god awful turnover machine, and those games coincided with Chris Johnson absolutely running wild. During that 5 game win streak in the middle of the season, Johnson well over 150 yards of total offense every game. He outgained his quarterback in total yards for all but one of those games. At least Vick has legitimately had a couple good games here and there, and he did it without the support of arguably the best RB in the game. (People just seem to forget that his 66% completion is about 11% off his 8 year career average) The whole just win argument is every bit as stupid as judging a player's skill by rings. Someone please argue that Terry Bradshaw was in the same league as Marino. How Young is playing now is irrelevant to what he did last year. If the Eagles can get out of Vick anything near the record that Young got for the Titans last season, I would say that's a pretty good deal for Philly. I should have left off the win later part of my post, but the idea is that Vick gives them the best chance to win right now, you can either bank on Kolb turning it around (O-line issues aside here because Vick plays with the same O-line) or you can just see how far Vick can take you since it literally risks them nothing. Makes pretty good sense to me, don't break what's working so far. | ||
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SweeTLemonS[TPR]
11739 Posts
On September 23 2010 03:39 Judicator wrote: How Young is playing now is irrelevant to what he did last year. If the Eagles can get out of Vick anything near the record that Young got for the Titans last season, I would say that's a pretty good deal for Philly. I should have left off the win later part of my post, but the idea is that Vick gives them the best chance to win right now, you can either bank on Kolb turning it around (O-line issues aside here because Vick plays with the same O-line) or you can just see how far Vick can take you since it literally risks them nothing. Makes pretty good sense to me, don't break what's working so far. You seem to have misunderstood what he was saying. He's saying that VY is only good with a 150+ yd rusher behind him. When it's all up to him to make passes, he can't do it. That's the only reason that last year was referenced. On September 23 2010 03:38 Hawk wrote: The clock management was more of a general comment from this year and last, not that game in particular. (though I know VD/whoever called the subs cost them 5 yard at least once, and I think one of those TOs in the 2nd half were because of bad personnel calls) I read something after the clusterfuck that was week one that Raye is known in the organization for mubling incoherrently when he calls plays, and this is that much more of a problem because he calls from the booth, relays it to a middle man, who relays to that mormon sonofabitch that has dishonored every quarterback before him. That loss was totally on execution though. After the first, they looked good man. They kept talking about how the plays weren't coming in clearly, and fast enough all game long. Someone should go slap the shit out of the guy making the call down, seriously. How the fuck do you mumble play calls? That's so fucking stupid, it's infuriating to hear about. Although, imo, that's up to the QB then to make a call with the personnel on the field, and go with it. Fuck it if the coaches don't like the call, get it in clearer next time. I mean, that's what separates elite QB's from the rest. I know Peyton is special in the NFL in this way, but do you think that'd happen to him very often? Or Brees, Brady, etc? Maybe a couple of times here and there because it's unexpected, but if it were happening consistently those guys would probably say fuck it and call their own plays. I'm sure there are many more QB's that would do the same thing in that situation. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32112 Posts
On September 23 2010 03:39 Judicator wrote: How Young is playing now is irrelevant to what he did last year. If the Eagles can get out of Vick anything near the record that Young got for the Titans last season, I would say that's a pretty good deal for Philly. I should have left off the win later part of my post, but the idea is that Vick gives them the best chance to win right now, you can either bank on Kolb turning it around (O-line issues aside here because Vick plays with the same O-line) or you can just see how far Vick can take you since it literally risks them nothing. Makes pretty good sense to me, don't break what's working so far. Did you miss this in my post?? All VY did was manage to have a few games were he wasn't a god awful turnover machine, and those games coincided with Chris Johnson absolutely running wild. During that 5 game win streak in the middle of the season, Johnson well over 150 yards of total offense every game. He outgained his quarterback in total yards for all but one of those games. Look at the stats yourself. Those wins are all on Johnson's back, not VY's. The only thing he did in those games was not turn over the ball like he does eeeeeevery week. That is the extent of the impact he had on the game. I don't even understand how people could overlook a back putting that kind of production up in such a short timeframe, and put the W on the QB. Young's just as shitty at passing, but he's also half the runner that Vick is. I would put any amount of money on it that if Vick hovers around the 150-175 total yard mark like Young did for all five of those games during the winstreak, the Eagles don't just lose, they get their dicks kicked in. Chris Johnson with one good leg is a better runner than McCoy. The only thing I agree with in your entire post is that the Eagle o-line is pretty shitty now, and that if they were in a win-now mentality, it probably does make more sense since Vick's speed can negate shitty line play. However, because their line is so shitty and because the D isn't much more than average this year and because Reid is a pass happy coach without a QB capable of passing, I'd say they are not in a win-now mode. Take the lumps with the kid. | ||
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