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Valhalla18444 Posts
On July 11 2010 06:31 MCMcEmcee wrote:
"The ability to adhere to a flowchart in competitive play is disgraceful to me"
So why are you posting on a site dedicated to professional Starcraft again?
claiming starcraft can be boiled down to a flowchart is about the most ignorant thing you could possibly post on TL
i didn't know you were a chump, mcmcmc!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
seriously let's just take a moment and reflect on this horrible post
starcraft, the most complex and evolved competitive game. teamliquid, a website dedicated to said game with extensive databanks and theorycraft taking place daily.
flowchart? really? what are you, a D rank protoss?
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GAMERBEE FIGHTINGGGG
I love Adon so much T_T!!!
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why is HD remix on the stream when ssfvi semis are scheduled?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
ssf4 semis aren't scheduled for another 6 minutes, may need some setup time. it could also just be a rough itinerary, maybe HDR is taking a little longer to complete than they thought.
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Oh forgive me it's not a flow chart at all, it's just heavily practiced, predetermined responses to common scenarios that may occur during the course of a match; responses that often occur at the level of reaction rather than decision making in professional level play, due to the heavy practice time with which to drill these predetermined responses. Especially in 10+ year old games where many details have been optimized and practiced into muscle memory.
Completely different from following a flow chart, which is what Tekken players do; I know this despite having nearly zero comprehension of Tekken, which is fine because it is a game for CLOWNS because clowns do a lot of JUGGLING and I am not a clown because I don't really juggle ever.
Except for EX legs into ultra. That doesn't count, because I'm not a clown, nor am I following a flow chart because my decision to do an ultra after EX legs is an on-the-spot, improvised decision rather than a decision informed by the knowledge that every time I connect EX legs in that situation, I can juggle my ultra after it. Oh I mean COMBO the ultra, not juggle it. No clowning around here, sir.
Besides, Koreans play SC on TV, not Tekken, and Korean SC players get flown out to international tournaments while Korean Tekken players do not. Ever. Because Tekken is for clowns.
Case closed, it's as easy as following a flow chart.
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On July 11 2010 07:17 MCMcEmcee wrote:
Oh forgive me it's not a flow chart at all, it's just heavily practiced, predetermined responses to common scenarios that may occur during the course of a match; responses that often occur at the level of reaction rather than decision making in professional level play, due to the heavy practice time with which to drill these predetermined responses. Especially in 10+ year old games where many details have been optimized and practiced into muscle memory.
Completely different from following a flow chart, which is what Tekken players do; I know this despite having nearly zero comprehension of Tekken, which is fine because it is a game for CLOWNS because clowns do a lot of JUGGLING and I am not a clown because I don't really juggle ever.
Except for EX legs into ultra. That doesn't count, because I'm not a clown, nor am I following a flow chart because my decision to do an ultra after EX legs is an on-the-spot, improvised decision rather than a decision informed by the knowledge that every time I connect EX legs in that situation, I can juggle my ultra after it. Oh I mean COMBO the ultra, not juggle it. No clowning around here, sir.
Besides, Koreans play SC on TV, not Tekken, and Korean SC players get flown out to international tournaments while Korean Tekken players do not. Ever. Because Tekken is for clowns.
Case closed, it's as easy as following a flow chart.
Actually there's a TV show called Tekken Crash on MBC Game. Of course Tekken is not as popular as BW in Korea, but I would consider Tekken as 2nd biggest esports game in Korea.
Tekken Crash home page: http://www.mbcgame.co.kr/Program/league_main_tekken.asp?Top_CD=G_PG&Top_CD_M=R&Sub_Title=R:100134&Sub_sTitle=
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On July 11 2010 07:17 MCMcEmcee wrote:
Oh forgive me it's not a flow chart at all, it's just heavily practiced, predetermined responses to common scenarios that may occur during the course of a match; responses that often occur at the level of reaction rather than decision making in professional level play, due to the heavy practice time with which to drill these predetermined responses. Especially in 10+ year old games where many details have been optimized and practiced into muscle memory.
Completely different from following a flow chart, which is what Tekken players do; I know this despite having nearly zero comprehension of Tekken, which is fine because it is a game for CLOWNS because clowns do a lot of JUGGLING and I am not a clown because I don't really juggle ever.
Except for EX legs into ultra. That doesn't count, because I'm not a clown, nor am I following a flow chart because my decision to do an ultra after EX legs is an on-the-spot, improvised decision rather than a decision informed by the knowledge that every time I connect EX legs in that situation, I can juggle my ultra after it. Oh I mean COMBO the ultra, not juggle it. No clowning around here, sir.
Besides, Koreans play SC on TV, not Tekken, and Korean SC players get flown out to international tournaments while Korean Tekken players do not. Ever. Because Tekken is for clowns.
Case closed, it's as easy as following a flow chart.
it was a really really dumb comparison and this post is also dumb
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Daigo vs Cole in HDR was nuts!
Instead of all this whatever the hell is going on, maybe people should talk about EVO as it's awesome. Fighting games are the 2nd best spectator game behind Starcraft obviously  . So exciting and so easy to follow along with.
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On July 11 2010 08:11 Logo wrote:Daigo vs Cole in HDR was nuts! Instead of all this whatever the hell is going on, maybe people should talk about EVO as it's awesome. Fighting games are the 2nd best spectator game behind Starcraft obviously . So exciting and so easy to follow along with.
Hell yes.
Im rooting for TheloTheGreat, + Show Spoiler +but he and daigo are in loser brackets
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On July 11 2010 06:39 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
seriously let's just take a moment and reflect on this horrible post
starcraft, the most complex and evolved competitive game. teamliquid, a website dedicated to said game with extensive databanks and theorycraft taking place daily.
flowchart? really? what are you, a D rank protoss?
It's a game. There exists by definition perfect play. This perfect play is, as a result of the game being a strategy game, composed of game decisions made in response to information available. For any given set of information, there exists an optimal decision to be made.
This is, in theory, precisely representable as a flow chart.
Mind you, the post is still horrible, because any and all games, played perfectly, are identical to following a flowchart.
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On July 11 2010 06:32 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 06:02 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
the concept of footsies in ssf4 is far more complicated than anything i've seen in tekken. i can't agree with your conclusion that ssf4 is all about reaction time
the playstyle being more dependent on the player in tekken is largely a product of far, FAR less variety in what characters can do. most characters in ssf4 can, though not necessarily optimally, fight from any range. characters who can't have very strong mixup games at close range and tools to get past other characters' zoning. watch a close abel vs rufus match between two top players and tell me it's all about reaction time.
a stance change is nothing but a substitution of move sets with a very clear visual cue. how this is an aspect of tekken's mind games i surely can't comprehend. it ought to be an automatic adjustment on the opponent's part.
i can see how the concept of 'fakes' is more pronounced in a 3d game like tekken, where the 3d model-based engine gives a murkier picture of what your opponent is throwing out than in a bright, 2d, frame-based game like ssf4. since the concept of 'faking' is called 'baiting' in ssf4, there is some common ground between the games here. i don't know enough about tekken to determine which system is more complex, but i can sure as hell say that ssf4 has it in spades.
the ability to adhere to a flowchart in competitive play is disgraceful to me I think the thing that bothers me most about Tekken is that many moves cause a deceptive amount of blockstun and recovery. Moves that you think are punishable because they involve an opponent lunging at you body and limb, leaving them wide open, are actually safe and it's very confusing. I do like Namco fighting games because they involve stages more than other fighting games, making the environment more than just a pretty background and adding a certain element of strategy. When it comes to competitive play for Tekken and to a lesser extent Soulcalibur, though, there are a lot of intricacies that players and spectators need to know to be able to follow along, moreso than SF4 in my opinion.
This. First time I watched high level Tekken play was today, I thought there was a lot of punishable stuff as well but some weren't at all. Definitely deep game based on what was shown, namely a good spread of characters, with some pretty tense mind games. This coming from a MvC2 player.
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STREAM DIES ON JWONG (RUFUS) VS RB (GUY)
WHYYYYYYYYYY
Why oh why couldn't it have been a less interesting match-up...
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f5f5f5f5f5f5f5
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On July 11 2010 08:49 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 06:39 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
seriously let's just take a moment and reflect on this horrible post
starcraft, the most complex and evolved competitive game. teamliquid, a website dedicated to said game with extensive databanks and theorycraft taking place daily.
flowchart? really? what are you, a D rank protoss? It's a game. There exists by definition perfect play. This perfect play is, as a result of the game being a strategy game, composed of game decisions made in response to information available. For any given set of information, there exists an optimal decision to be made. This is, in theory, precisely representable as a flow chart. Mind you, the post is still horrible, because any and all games, played perfectly, are identical to following a flowchart.
except there are multiple paths that could be considered equally optimal at any given time (or most junctions i guess i should say in case someone feels like quoting me and arguing semantics -_____-) which is why starcraft enjoys such stunning variety in gameplay
come on guys you're making tl look bad
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Valhalla18444 Posts
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On July 11 2010 08:49 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 06:39 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
seriously let's just take a moment and reflect on this horrible post
starcraft, the most complex and evolved competitive game. teamliquid, a website dedicated to said game with extensive databanks and theorycraft taking place daily.
flowchart? really? what are you, a D rank protoss? It's a game. There exists by definition perfect play. This perfect play is, as a result of the game being a strategy game, composed of game decisions made in response to information available. For any given set of information, there exists an optimal decision to be made. This is, in theory, precisely representable as a flow chart. Mind you, the post is still horrible, because any and all games, played perfectly, are identical to following a flowchart.
no, this is wrong and ignorant, because there is such a thing as psychology; "mind games"
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On July 11 2010 09:02 travis wrote:
no, this is wrong and ignorant, because there is such a thing as psychology; "mind games"
At most this addition gets you to the point of having multiple paths/branches that are equally optimal. A flowchart can still represent such a situation, and I wouldn't even grant that mindgames somehow stop there from being an optimal way of playing.
I don't see why people think its somehow a bad thing that you can represent a game as a flowchart. The only thing you can't represent as a flowchart is something which involves no user decisions whatsoever.
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EPT
