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On July 22 2011 05:57 Aruno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:24 trainRiderJ wrote:On July 22 2011 04:55 shizna wrote:
what gave diablo 2 such replay value?
a) inability to respec, meaning you'd have to reroll character if you wanted to experiment, make farming char, gimmick build etc etc. once familiar with the power levelling process, it became an artform and was very enjoyable. you would also see much of the game over and over again, rather than world of chorecraft where you whiz to top level and then see the same areas week in week out until the next expansion.
b) incredible difficulty to reach maximum level, especially using pvp characters with poorly optimized pve spells.
c) farming bosses, both to equip your smurf chars and also find rare and potentially valuable booty for trading.
if they introduce the ability to respec or prevent boss/item/exp farming/powerlevelling, then it will be just a good game for 1-2 playthroughs and then disappointment because it sucked compared to diablo 2. I completely disagree with all three of your points. The ability to respec is more important now than ever due to the much greater combination of viable abilities and therefore (theoretically) builds. The level system is arbitrary and very few players played with the goal of reaching level 99. Even fewer actually made it that far. What people played for is the item grind, which is obviously still in full effect. Farming bosses is just one possible way to gain items. If there were a more efficient way people would have done it differently. Per the developers, they are aiming for something else to be the "best" way to get new items. Your 3 reasons just show your a lazy(undedicated) player. Making it super hard to reach the very highest levels is a good thing, And detracts nothing from your item farming that you think was all important. Ability to respec, means the puzzle of what is the best pvp, and pve builds. Will be solved dramatically faster. Remember this, It's not just you solving the puzzles, It's the whole dam Diablo 3 population. News spreads fast on the internet. Thus, do not allow respec(thou a special 1 time respec item drop would be fair). People want a difficult game, After their bitching and moaning, after they throw their temper tantrums. They will come back to the game. Why? Because it's not a one trick pony. It's complicated, It's a challenge. Having bosses, that are near impossible to take down alone ARE a good thing. It adds a dimension to the game that says " Hey You!, You need help!, Learn Teamwork or die! ^_^ " I hope the workers at Blizz north really push for the long term future of the game. A game that could be loved in 5-10 more years time. Just like how playing Diablo 1 can bring some fun after all these years.
Ignoring your crude Ad Hominem, I will attempt to refute your post.
Making it super hard to reach the very highest levels is arbitrary, and difficult to balance. There are other ways to measure "dedication" than what it essentially a kill counter. Although, you know what would measure dedication better than experience levels? A literal kill counter! It wouldn't even have to have a cap so even the most "dedicated" gamers could compare their epeens. You know what else measures dedication? Your loot. This is the direction Blizzard is going.
Removing the ability to respec isn't going to slow down the theory crafting online, not with the scale of user base we're talking about. Anyways, you should do a little more research into how character builds will work in Diablo 3. They are much more equipment- and skill rune-focused. The metagame will be figuring out which of the nearly limitless combinations of skills, equipment, and skill runes work best for your character. Not allowing respecs for base abilities would just be an annoying roadblock in that journey.
I never said the game shouldn't have bosses that are extremely difficult to defeat. I just said that perhaps the best way to gain items shouldn't be running the same 5 minute or less boss sequence over, and over, and over. Besides, a 5 minute boss run is hardly difficult.
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On July 22 2011 05:57 Aruno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:24 trainRiderJ wrote:On July 22 2011 04:55 shizna wrote:
what gave diablo 2 such replay value?
a) inability to respec, meaning you'd have to reroll character if you wanted to experiment, make farming char, gimmick build etc etc. once familiar with the power levelling process, it became an artform and was very enjoyable. you would also see much of the game over and over again, rather than world of chorecraft where you whiz to top level and then see the same areas week in week out until the next expansion.
b) incredible difficulty to reach maximum level, especially using pvp characters with poorly optimized pve spells.
c) farming bosses, both to equip your smurf chars and also find rare and potentially valuable booty for trading.
if they introduce the ability to respec or prevent boss/item/exp farming/powerlevelling, then it will be just a good game for 1-2 playthroughs and then disappointment because it sucked compared to diablo 2. I completely disagree with all three of your points. The ability to respec is more important now than ever due to the much greater combination of viable abilities and therefore (theoretically) builds. The level system is arbitrary and very few players played with the goal of reaching level 99. Even fewer actually made it that far. What people played for is the item grind, which is obviously still in full effect. Farming bosses is just one possible way to gain items. If there were a more efficient way people would have done it differently. Per the developers, they are aiming for something else to be the "best" way to get new items. Your 3 reasons just show your a lazy(undedicated) player. Making it super hard to reach the very highest levels is a good thing, And detracts nothing from your item farming that you think was all important. Ability to respec, means the puzzle of what is the best pvp, and pve builds. Will be solved dramatically faster. Remember this, It's not just you solving the puzzles, It's the whole dam Diablo 3 population. News spreads fast on the internet. Thus, do not allow respec(thou a special 1 time respec item drop would be fair). People want a difficult game, After their bitching and moaning, after they throw their temper tantrums. They will come back to the game. Why? Because it's not a one trick pony. It's complicated, It's a challenge. Having bosses, that are near impossible to take down alone ARE a good thing. It adds a dimension to the game that says " Hey You!, You need help!, Learn Teamwork or die! ^_^ " I hope the workers at Blizz north really push for the long term future of the game. A game that could be loved in 5-10 more years time. Just like how playing Diablo 1 can bring some fun after all these years.
I highly doubt a game with the difficulty and "grindyness" of Diablo 1 or 2 will sell that well today... It'll probably will be more like WoW dimension. :/
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Don't confuse "grind" with "difficulty".
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On July 22 2011 05:57 Aruno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:24 trainRiderJ wrote:On July 22 2011 04:55 shizna wrote:
what gave diablo 2 such replay value?
a) inability to respec, meaning you'd have to reroll character if you wanted to experiment, make farming char, gimmick build etc etc. once familiar with the power levelling process, it became an artform and was very enjoyable. you would also see much of the game over and over again, rather than world of chorecraft where you whiz to top level and then see the same areas week in week out until the next expansion.
b) incredible difficulty to reach maximum level, especially using pvp characters with poorly optimized pve spells.
c) farming bosses, both to equip your smurf chars and also find rare and potentially valuable booty for trading.
if they introduce the ability to respec or prevent boss/item/exp farming/powerlevelling, then it will be just a good game for 1-2 playthroughs and then disappointment because it sucked compared to diablo 2. I completely disagree with all three of your points. The ability to respec is more important now than ever due to the much greater combination of viable abilities and therefore (theoretically) builds. The level system is arbitrary and very few players played with the goal of reaching level 99. Even fewer actually made it that far. What people played for is the item grind, which is obviously still in full effect. Farming bosses is just one possible way to gain items. If there were a more efficient way people would have done it differently. Per the developers, they are aiming for something else to be the "best" way to get new items. Your 3 reasons just show your a lazy(undedicated) player. Making it super hard to reach the very highest levels is a good thing, And detracts nothing from your item farming that you think was all important. Ability to respec, means the puzzle of what is the best pvp, and pve builds. Will be solved dramatically faster. Remember this, It's not just you solving the puzzles, It's the whole dam Diablo 3 population. News spreads fast on the internet. Thus, do not allow respec(thou a special 1 time respec item drop would be fair). People want a difficult game, After their bitching and moaning, after they throw their temper tantrums. They will come back to the game. Why? Because it's not a one trick pony. It's complicated, It's a challenge. Having bosses, that are near impossible to take down alone ARE a good thing. It adds a dimension to the game that says " Hey You!, You need help!, Learn Teamwork or die! ^_^ " I hope the workers at Blizz north really push for the long term future of the game. A game that could be loved in 5-10 more years time. Just like how playing Diablo 1 can bring some fun after all these years.
For your information, a hard game and a huge ass grinding fest game isnt same thing.
What is the point of not allowing respects.Everytime I want to try a new build should I have to start over again?Not all people are playing computer games18 hours a day.
People want difficult game, not repetitive annoying grind game.
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I need this god damn game to come out NNNOOOOWWWWW!!!
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On July 22 2011 04:55 shizna wrote:
what gave diablo 2 such replay value?
a) inability to respec, meaning you'd have to reroll character if you wanted to experiment, make farming char, gimmick build etc etc. once familiar with the power levelling process, it became an artform and was very enjoyable. you would also see much of the game over and over again, rather than world of chorecraft where you whiz to top level and then see the same areas week in week out until the next expansion.
b) incredible difficulty to reach maximum level, especially using pvp characters with poorly optimized pve spells.
c) farming bosses, both to equip your smurf chars and also find rare and potentially valuable booty for trading.
if they introduce the ability to respec or prevent boss/item/exp farming/powerlevelling, then it will be just a good game for 1-2 playthroughs and then disappointment because it sucked compared to diablo 2.
im sorry but, on the contrary... Inability to respec is what made D2 bad, Incredibly difficult to reach max level for nearly no gain.. bad
Farming only bosses for loot.. pretty bad too. I played d2 alotttttttt
but i fucking hated no respecs, high level really had no other purpose besides a number above ur head... I also hated only being able to boss run for loot.
D3 is going to fix what was bad about d2.
So i mean, really outside of nostalgia sakes.. how is this holding back d3?
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On July 22 2011 05:57 Aruno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:24 trainRiderJ wrote:On July 22 2011 04:55 shizna wrote:
what gave diablo 2 such replay value?
a) inability to respec, meaning you'd have to reroll character if you wanted to experiment, make farming char, gimmick build etc etc. once familiar with the power levelling process, it became an artform and was very enjoyable. you would also see much of the game over and over again, rather than world of chorecraft where you whiz to top level and then see the same areas week in week out until the next expansion.
b) incredible difficulty to reach maximum level, especially using pvp characters with poorly optimized pve spells.
c) farming bosses, both to equip your smurf chars and also find rare and potentially valuable booty for trading.
if they introduce the ability to respec or prevent boss/item/exp farming/powerlevelling, then it will be just a good game for 1-2 playthroughs and then disappointment because it sucked compared to diablo 2. I completely disagree with all three of your points. The ability to respec is more important now than ever due to the much greater combination of viable abilities and therefore (theoretically) builds. The level system is arbitrary and very few players played with the goal of reaching level 99. Even fewer actually made it that far. What people played for is the item grind, which is obviously still in full effect. Farming bosses is just one possible way to gain items. If there were a more efficient way people would have done it differently. Per the developers, they are aiming for something else to be the "best" way to get new items. Your 3 reasons just show your a lazy(undedicated) player. Making it super hard to reach the very highest levels is a good thing, And detracts nothing from your item farming that you think was all important. Ability to respec, means the puzzle of what is the best pvp, and pve builds. Will be solved dramatically faster. Remember this, It's not just you solving the puzzles, It's the whole dam Diablo 3 population. News spreads fast on the internet. Thus, do not allow respec(thou a special 1 time respec item drop would be fair). People want a difficult game, After their bitching and moaning, after they throw their temper tantrums. They will come back to the game. Why? Because it's not a one trick pony. It's complicated, It's a challenge. Having bosses, that are near impossible to take down alone ARE a good thing. It adds a dimension to the game that says " Hey You!, You need help!, Learn Teamwork or die! ^_^ " I hope the workers at Blizz north really push for the long term future of the game. A game that could be loved in 5-10 more years time. Just like how playing Diablo 1 can bring some fun after all these years.
Hahahaha
Gotta admit. This is the first time Ive ever heard someone being called "lazy and undedicated" for NOT sitting on his ass and playing games all day
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On July 22 2011 08:41 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:57 Aruno wrote:On July 22 2011 05:24 trainRiderJ wrote:On July 22 2011 04:55 shizna wrote:
what gave diablo 2 such replay value?
a) inability to respec, meaning you'd have to reroll character if you wanted to experiment, make farming char, gimmick build etc etc. once familiar with the power levelling process, it became an artform and was very enjoyable. you would also see much of the game over and over again, rather than world of chorecraft where you whiz to top level and then see the same areas week in week out until the next expansion.
b) incredible difficulty to reach maximum level, especially using pvp characters with poorly optimized pve spells.
c) farming bosses, both to equip your smurf chars and also find rare and potentially valuable booty for trading.
if they introduce the ability to respec or prevent boss/item/exp farming/powerlevelling, then it will be just a good game for 1-2 playthroughs and then disappointment because it sucked compared to diablo 2. I completely disagree with all three of your points. The ability to respec is more important now than ever due to the much greater combination of viable abilities and therefore (theoretically) builds. The level system is arbitrary and very few players played with the goal of reaching level 99. Even fewer actually made it that far. What people played for is the item grind, which is obviously still in full effect. Farming bosses is just one possible way to gain items. If there were a more efficient way people would have done it differently. Per the developers, they are aiming for something else to be the "best" way to get new items. Your 3 reasons just show your a lazy(undedicated) player. Making it super hard to reach the very highest levels is a good thing, And detracts nothing from your item farming that you think was all important. Ability to respec, means the puzzle of what is the best pvp, and pve builds. Will be solved dramatically faster. Remember this, It's not just you solving the puzzles, It's the whole dam Diablo 3 population. News spreads fast on the internet. Thus, do not allow respec(thou a special 1 time respec item drop would be fair). People want a difficult game, After their bitching and moaning, after they throw their temper tantrums. They will come back to the game. Why? Because it's not a one trick pony. It's complicated, It's a challenge. Having bosses, that are near impossible to take down alone ARE a good thing. It adds a dimension to the game that says " Hey You!, You need help!, Learn Teamwork or die! ^_^ " I hope the workers at Blizz north really push for the long term future of the game. A game that could be loved in 5-10 more years time. Just like how playing Diablo 1 can bring some fun after all these years. Hahahaha Gotta admit. This is the first time Ive ever heard someone being called "lazy and undedicated" for NOT sitting on his ass and playing games all day
I guess you haven't watched much Liquid Tyler recently
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This is the only game that I am looking forward to.
All the essence of MMORPG smelt down to the most basic essence and refined into a masterpiece.
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Diablo 2 and LoD were the first games i ever played. I will be playing again. I am wicked bummed there is no necromancer. Witch doctor isnt the same dont even try !
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I feel like this game will rock hard. Hopefully it will be easy to find people to play with as I have 0 "internet friends." Maybe I will try to find some TL ppl when we finally get to play as I have no intention of playing solo like I did for D2 and LOD. Don't have much substance to add here, just looking forward to slaying y'all with my baller demon hunter!
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On July 22 2011 11:16 Weebem-Na wrote:
I feel like this game will rock hard. Hopefully it will be easy to find people to play with as I have 0 "internet friends." Maybe I will try to find some TL ppl when we finally get to play as I have no intention of playing solo like I did for D2 and LOD. Don't have much substance to add here, just looking forward to slaying y'all with my baller demon hunter!
More than likely, I have people I met on D2 that I've played with through WoW and still keep in contact with. Not sure about others, but I always seemed to find internet friends easier on the Diablo platform than I did Starcraft. I don't know if its just the whole killing stuff together thing or that theres a lot more ways in Diablo to help each other, but it always seemed like meeting people and building relationships was easier.
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On July 22 2011 08:41 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:57 Aruno wrote:On July 22 2011 05:24 trainRiderJ wrote:On July 22 2011 04:55 shizna wrote:
what gave diablo 2 such replay value?
a) inability to respec, meaning you'd have to reroll character if you wanted to experiment, make farming char, gimmick build etc etc. once familiar with the power levelling process, it became an artform and was very enjoyable. you would also see much of the game over and over again, rather than world of chorecraft where you whiz to top level and then see the same areas week in week out until the next expansion.
b) incredible difficulty to reach maximum level, especially using pvp characters with poorly optimized pve spells.
c) farming bosses, both to equip your smurf chars and also find rare and potentially valuable booty for trading.
if they introduce the ability to respec or prevent boss/item/exp farming/powerlevelling, then it will be just a good game for 1-2 playthroughs and then disappointment because it sucked compared to diablo 2. I completely disagree with all three of your points. The ability to respec is more important now than ever due to the much greater combination of viable abilities and therefore (theoretically) builds. The level system is arbitrary and very few players played with the goal of reaching level 99. Even fewer actually made it that far. What people played for is the item grind, which is obviously still in full effect. Farming bosses is just one possible way to gain items. If there were a more efficient way people would have done it differently. Per the developers, they are aiming for something else to be the "best" way to get new items. Your 3 reasons just show your a lazy(undedicated) player. Making it super hard to reach the very highest levels is a good thing, And detracts nothing from your item farming that you think was all important. Ability to respec, means the puzzle of what is the best pvp, and pve builds. Will be solved dramatically faster. Remember this, It's not just you solving the puzzles, It's the whole dam Diablo 3 population. News spreads fast on the internet. Thus, do not allow respec(thou a special 1 time respec item drop would be fair). People want a difficult game, After their bitching and moaning, after they throw their temper tantrums. They will come back to the game. Why? Because it's not a one trick pony. It's complicated, It's a challenge. Having bosses, that are near impossible to take down alone ARE a good thing. It adds a dimension to the game that says " Hey You!, You need help!, Learn Teamwork or die! ^_^ " I hope the workers at Blizz north really push for the long term future of the game. A game that could be loved in 5-10 more years time. Just like how playing Diablo 1 can bring some fun after all these years. Hahahaha Gotta admit. This is the first time Ive ever heard someone being called "lazy and undedicated" for NOT sitting on his ass and playing games all day
This is what I see of it, I do not want the game to be "Solved" after 2 years. I want it to be near impossible to solve. So that skill and item build combinations become like sacred knowledge. Yet with so much unknown possibilities out there, it leaves room for new ideas to surpass the current norm.
I'm not suggesting to make the game a necessary grind. Just that, you have to focus more on less characters to achieve real knowledge on the game.
By having a system in place that forces the players that want to be the very best, to have to not only play heaps just to understand very late game PvE, PvP situations. But also cause the creations of clans based around shared knowledge in a trusted environment. Because giving away item/skill builds could cause others to dream up counters to your builds(more applicable in PvP).
So yes, I want extreme difficulty and hard to know possibilities at the very late game of Diablo 3.
BUT I don't want that to be the case for starting out new characters, I want it to go from easy beginning, to Unbelievably hard extreme late game.
Oh and hardcore will mean so much more when it's impossibly hard to max out + get a perfect skill/item combination.
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I thought they stated that there is no full respec option in the game atm. But there is something in place to help reskill a few points incase you made mistakes.. so maybe respeccing a few points but not completely changing your skill point allocations.
changing skill runes and changing gems in items is going to be possible so there is not really a need for respec options in skill points. just make a new char like in d2 b4 the respec came in d2... perhaps a rare item will allow a 5 skill point reallocation or something instead of every skill.
I do wonder if respeccing will include the "traits" to or if they will end up being the thing you cannot change.
I just hope hardcore has alot of attention paid to it! cannot wait for August 1 for extra info from that press event!
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On July 22 2011 13:05 Phats wrote:
I thought they stated that there is no full respec option in the game atm. But there is something in place to help reskill a few points incase you made mistakes.. so maybe respeccing a few points but not completely changing your skill point allocations.
changing skill runes and changing gems in items is going to be possible so there is not really a need for respec options in skill points. just make a new char like in d2 b4 the respec came in d2... perhaps a rare item will allow a 5 skill point reallocation or something instead of every skill.
I do wonder if respeccing will include the "traits" to or if they will end up being the thing you cannot change.
I just hope hardcore has alot of attention paid to it! cannot wait for August 1 for extra info from that press event!
Full respec will be in the game, the hangup was that it was said it will not be a cheap process (and gold is supposedly actually going to be worth something in this game as opposed to D2).
Looking forward to sharing all the information from the press event. Its going to be a lot of fun for sure. Looks like we will be spending a good 4 hours playing around with the Beta, then there will be presentations and time for the interviews.
Beta is within our grasps, I cannot wait =)
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to the above 2 people stating that they where anoyed with having o boss run and hope that gold becomes valuable as opposed to now...
theres no real way to say it other then you are plain wrong...
first of all farming any particular place in LOD considering its value is based on the market prices and there are literally tons of "times" after a ladder reset where the best place to farm is not a boss... the cave in act1 in one of the last areas, is by far the best place to farm straight items (unique/set/blue etc)
because of the high amount of mobs, paired with the ease of killing them, and their abnormally high moblvl considering the act.
they are forexample higher then mephisto etc who newbies farm alot - the experienced players only farm meph etc in the very very early days of a new ladder to get fast "basic epics"
also... for some of the people with the most "market value" in d2 gold is a very very valuable ressouce since gambling is the only way to help effectively farm out the best types of craftables/rares - wich also happen to be by MILES the most costly items in the game...
the best perfect ridiculous runeword with the best possible stats and highest runes in the game
- is not even worth 1/100 of the best craftables and rares... examplarely the perfect crafted ring/circlet etc... do not even exist in the game in the newest ladder and all the "best in slot" items for all builds dont even exist on non ladder - with all its content.
this leads me to the point, to the people arguing about what made diablo 2 great, and able to stand the test of time is just that...
people would literally prefer games like wow to it if it wasnt for that...
the best in slot, DOES NOT EXIST, the rare/craft generator makes endless scenarios possible... no one is hyped for ur weapon/armor/shield for most chars forexample, cause they are just generic bestinslot RW/epics - rings/circs/belts/amus/pelts etc in all their possibilities is what sets the game apart.
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man, i can't wait for this game...
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On July 22 2011 08:41 Supamang wrote:
Gotta admit. This is the first time Ive ever heard someone being called "lazy and undedicated" for NOT sitting on his ass and playing games all day
He wasn't calling him lazy, he was calling him a lazy player. The way that he had phrased it was "Lazy (Undedicated) player." There was not indication of him calling him lazy for not playing, but more of someone lazy for being a lousy player. The actual definition was slightly misconstrued in the way he had phrased it, but the real meaning was more of the "undedicated" player.
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This discussion reminds me a lot about the debate about bw versus sc2. The best entry to that discussing was easily this blog by Hot-Bid
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=89277
It's a new game guys, if you want diablo 2 again then get involved in the modding community.
After the epic fail that is dungeon siege 3 I REALLY want this game to be released soon.
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Diablo II and LOD were my first gaming loves. I am so excited for D3 and will play the ever-loving-crap out of it. I can wait, but I'd prefer not to.
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EPT
