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On June 20 2010 14:01 radmax86 wrote:
Is there any combo that a skilled pantheon and janna can't zone out and deny xp or kill repeatedly? I'm dying to know, because I can't figure out how to counter it with the heroes that I play. i know its a rhetorical question but i'm curious too.
i mean pirate won't be zoned but he'll have different problems.
kass/soraka maybe?
sion/janna might work.
morgana + someone?
if blind effects HS then teemo+corki?
lol too much theorycrafting
but while we're on this topic, just wanted to share an awesome team comp i went up against a while back. i remembered it while talking with uta and ezpz about good team comps. it was 1-1-3 laning with pirate, janna, panth, ashe, and someone i can't remember. basically janna, panth, and pirate went bot against 2 heroes. pirate would deny so the lane pushed then janna and panth would just park themselves behind enemy creeps and zone out the other 2 heroes. all 5 at bottom were underfarmed but the 2 heroes getting zoned literally got 0 exp (i remember they died a few times too). it was ridiculous and was a lanslide victory for the other team.
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On June 20 2010 14:50 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 14:01 radmax86 wrote:
Is there any combo that a skilled pantheon and janna can't zone out and deny xp or kill repeatedly? I'm dying to know, because I can't figure out how to counter it with the heroes that I play. i know its a rhetorical question but i'm curious too.
Incidentally, I would take a Soraka/Kass lane against that and probably fare quite well (I'd say we'd probably win, even).
Edit:
![[image loading]](http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9623/leagueoflegends20100619.jpg)
I guess we'll call this picture "the whiff."
No, but seriously, why is Kass's ball hollow, and can anyone blame me for not being able to see jack as someone color blind? >_< What ever happened to "visual clarity."
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On June 20 2010 14:40 Southlight wrote:I think Pokey's damn close to 100% on Soraka, it's why he gets Locket like 5 minutes faster than me  what a beast. but uta i know what you're talking about with the ranged/melee auto-attacking thing. i can 100% easy on kat but sometimes i'll be 10+ cs behind with nidalee and catch up only after i get cougar. i played trist once and couldnt last hit for crap. her attack animation is so slow, dunno how rad farms so fast. kayle was hard too for some reason.
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Yeah, I'm definitely close to 100% on melee heroes, while ranged heroes all have a bit of trickiness to them. You definitely have to be used to ranged heroes, IMO. It was the case in DotA, too. Lina's attack animation was so crappy but people who played her a lot last hit like it was nothing.
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On June 20 2010 14:52 Southlight wrote:
No, but seriously, why is Kass's ball hollow, and can anyone blame me for not being able to see jack as someone color blind? >_< What ever happened to "visual clarity." o_O you're colorblind?!?!?!?! wow i never knew that. were you always like that or did it develop later?
edit: lol i can't tell what's going on at all.
![[image loading]](http://i45.tinypic.com/2gsqq2o.jpg)
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On June 20 2010 14:52 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 14:50 redtooth wrote:On June 20 2010 14:01 radmax86 wrote:
Is there any combo that a skilled pantheon and janna can't zone out and deny xp or kill repeatedly? I'm dying to know, because I can't figure out how to counter it with the heroes that I play. i know its a rhetorical question but i'm curious too. Incidentally, I would take a Soraka/Kass lane against that and probably fare quite well (I'd say we'd probably win, even). I guess we'll call this picture "the whiff." No, but seriously, why is Kass's ball hollow, and can anyone blame me for not being able to see jack as someone color blind? >_< What ever happened to "visual clarity."
The ball is hollow because it's behind the big brown hairy tibbers. You wouldn't want spell effects covering up units and stuff. Imagine if janna's ult just blanketed the screen in green death -_-.
I think if they positioned a bit better at dragon things wouldn't have been as bad. They cluster fucked by the wall, instead of being out and (hopefully) using two different pushes to knock all of you inside. They had 3 squishies and two tanks, not the best set up when you had two silences and two stuns.
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On June 20 2010 14:01 radmax86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 11:07 Mogwai wrote:On June 20 2010 07:28 radmax86 wrote:On June 20 2010 04:20 Mogwai wrote:
Yes, he is bugged, but if I hear one more motherfucker tell me that I'm playing the brokest character in the game cause I do more than 3 x as much damage as I should, I think I'm going to fucking explode. Can you imagine how fucking terrible the character design on a pantheon that only tickles with Heartseeker would be? [/rage] You main a broken character that deals far more burst damage then the game designers intended, get over it. I know it has existed for a long tine, but I think it deserves a hotfix asap, even if doing so makes him worse than eve. They can worry about buffing him in the next patch. Seriously, there are a TON of pantheons out there right now that intentionally abuse the hell out of this bug and every time I get hit by a HSS I imagine the giant shit-eating grin on their face. Fuck, it makes me mad. >_< see this is the shit I'm talking about far more? hmm, let's say I open long sword the sake of being as abusive as I can. I also take brute force and flat damage quints too, that's +20 damage. it should be 20 * .36 more = 7.2 more damage per hit instead it's 20 more per hit so a total of 65 more damage on my 30 second CD nuke when I'm trying as hard as possible to abuse it early. let's say I farm a BF Sword by level 9 when I have maxed it. it should now be 70 * .6 more = 48 more damage per hit instead it's 70 more so now a total of 110 more. I'm trying as hard as I can to abuse it in the early to mid game when people are bitching so hard and I'm still only doing 110 more damage than I'm supposed to... on a 22 second CD. Is it insignificant? no, but it's far from the game breaking shit that people think it is, especially since he's still not that great a character. I mean you do your math from the most convenient time possible. I've seen plenty of Pantheons have 3 BF swords at 15 min, and it often snowballs worse from there. lets look at what you can do at level 3 with a janna: (20dmg from matries/runes/long sword+23dmg janna shield) 50 dmg stun + 30 dmg spear + 43 bonus dmg +(6bonus + 57base + 43bonus)x5hits = 759dmg when it should be: 50 + 30 + 43 +(6+57+[43*0.18*2])*5 = 515.4 Thats an extra 244 dmg right there at level 3, and you can you could increase this even more if you add a lizard buff, full +dmg rune page, and swap out long sword for red pot. Do that every 26 seconds with spear spams in between and perhaps an ignite for good measure . How is that fair? Is there any hero that can deal even remotely close to that amount of burst at level 3? Is there any combo that a skilled pantheon and janna can't zone out and deny xp or kill repeatedly? I'm dying to know, because I can't figure out how to counter it with the heroes that I play.
There are other janna lanes, like janna ez and janna ashe that can still accomplish shit vs. it.
anyway, again, you seem to have no fucking idea what you're talking about with your math and it again is what's driving me crazy... people talk about the bug while knowing nothing about it or how pantheon works... they just continually quote that one quote by zileas or whoever and misinterpret it. once again, the other of operations on the damage is:
1. do the % of your base damage
2. add the skill damage from heartseeker
3. double it if it's a champion
4. add the full bonus damage
you can test this easily by making a practice game, heartseekering wraiths, heartseekering a friend's champion, then going back, buying a longsword and seeing the damage/tick go up by 10 in both cases (both establishes the bug and establishes that it applies AFTER the doubling).
level 3 with janna (fucking christ, this has to be the 5th time I've done this set of fucking calculations in a forum).
panth base damage: 59
janna's shield: 23
flat damage quints (terrible idea, but w/e): ~7
brute force: 3
elixir of fortitude: 13
base damage = 59
bonus damage = 46
total damage = 105
heartseeker
59 * 18% = ~11
+ 6 = 17
* 2 = 34
+ 46 = 80/hit
* 5 = 400
what it should be doing is
105 * 18% = ~19
+ 6 = 25
* 2 = 50/hit
* 5 = 250
full burst
shield 50
auto attack 105
heartseeker 400
ignite 125
spear shot 135
auto crit 210
= 1025 damage
it should be doing 875.
again, yea, 150 is nothing to laugh at, but in the scheme of his whole burst, it's only a 17% increase over what it normally should be in the absolute most abusive case. by design, Pantheon and Janna will still rape your face off, just not quite as hard. even with a hotfix, that lane would still be capable of zoning basically any other lane out.
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United States37500 Posts
On June 20 2010 14:59 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 14:52 Southlight wrote:
No, but seriously, why is Kass's ball hollow, and can anyone blame me for not being able to see jack as someone color blind? >_< What ever happened to "visual clarity." o_O you're colorblind?!?!?!?! wow i never knew that. were you always like that or did it develop later? edit: lol i can't tell what's going on at all.
lololol... you noob. Go look up what colorblindness is.  It's not you can't see color at all...
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On June 20 2010 15:29 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 14:59 redtooth wrote:On June 20 2010 14:52 Southlight wrote:
No, but seriously, why is Kass's ball hollow, and can anyone blame me for not being able to see jack as someone color blind? >_< What ever happened to "visual clarity." o_O you're colorblind?!?!?!?! wow i never knew that. were you always like that or did it develop later? edit: lol i can't tell what's going on at all. lololol... you noob. Go look up what colorblindness is. It's not you can't see color at all... aww. that makes utahime significantly less epic.
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OK, I'll concede the math to you SmashGizmo, but it still feels broken as shit to me that a character can hit that hard, that early. This is why I think people are QQing, not because they misunderstand the math. People rage about 3/4 life Parleys and Primordial Bursts too, but at least those don't generally happen until late game before people have a reasonable amount of time to get some defensive resists.
I agree Janna/Ez and Janna/Ashe are strong, but nowhere near that sort of burst potential. A small slip up in one of those lanes will hurt, but is generally not going to be catastrophic like it would be in a pantheon lane.
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I just started playing and its a pretty fun game, not quite as fun as dota but I think its because im still new and getting used to it.
My username is AerensianiC
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On June 20 2010 16:18 radmax86 wrote:
OK, I'll concede the math to you SmashGizmo, but it still feels broken as shit to me that a character can hit that hard, that early. This is why I think people are QQing, not because they misunderstand the math. People rage about 3/4 life Parleys and Primordial Bursts too, but at least those don't generally happen until late game before people have a reasonable amount of time to get some defensive resists.
I agree Janna/Ez and Janna/Ashe are strong, but nowhere near that sort of burst potential. A small slip up in one of those lanes will hurt, but is generally not going to be catastrophic like it would be in a pantheon lane.
AKA, they can't burst down a hero like panth can.
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I'm pretty sure I've had it all my life, but my color blindness is more of like a gradient one, so similar colors all blend together ;x Usually not a problem, but the space Nasus skin basically makes him half-invisible to me (especially in the water area) and whenever Nasus turns on his ult it makes it hard to make him out. That sort of thing.
In that picture, what happens to me is I just see a big gray blob that encompasses pretty much every hero except Kennen Annie Janna and Heimer, and at a quick glance I can't distinguish Kennen in lightning form from any of Heimer's turrets :p
Edit:
If you're curious:
![[image loading]](http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6877/thewayisawcolor.jpg)
The opaque filling is a decent representation of what I would see in the middle of a game with moving parts. The Heimer and the Gragas stood out, but I saw almost nothing else. I never saw the Tibbers because it looked just like the Nasus (and in that fight the Tibbers died pretty fast), I never saw Kennen the whole fight, there was no way I could track Kat (who has several things going against her. First, she's red, and the ground is green, and red/green colorblindness makes her basically invisible. Second, she's also very dark, so she fades into Tibbers/Annie/Nasus/Kassadin and is thus remarkably difficult to see), I had trouble seeing Kassadin (who clashes with Nasus and Tibbers again), and Amumu looks like the ground, and with sunfire capes just looks like flowers (see left of Heimer). Essentially during that fight what caught my eye the most, and confused me, was the dark blob in the middle, in that screenshot consisting of Nasus and Tibbers, but later including some mixture of Kat Kass and Kennen, and because of the moving parts involved this dark blob was pretty unrecognizable. To no surprise I basically never saw Nasus nor Kassadin nor Kat in fights, and if one of them was being focus fired I wouldn't have known nor recognized their silhouettes enough to heal them :p Usually this isn't a problem but Nasus has an obnoxious gray swirling ring around him that really conceals similar-colored heroes, and even without, the space skin is just guhhhhh.
There're games against Heimer where I'll randomly die to turrets during a teamfight because I simply cannot see the turrets without focusing a good amount of attention - unfortunately level 5 turrets are a R/G color-blind killer
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On June 20 2010 12:50 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 12:37 Southlight wrote:I had Fraps running last night and was bored this afternoon: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAV5uLWGUE The fights we won still don't make sense to me. lul kass didnt notice u gettin pwned (when he went to buy)
lol i noticed and decided i didnt care:p
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getting fed up playing in pub games, anyone wanna play together on the europe client send me a tell...
ID: Poimandres
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Southlight, have you tried custom skinning the champions and turrets and shit so you can see it easier? Also, maybe if you turn the graphics options down lower it may be easier to see
Had a 4 game win streak going, then we mucked around with an all tank team stacking sunfires but it kinda failed
Then we played a game of jax ezreal tristana gangplank gragas (3 man que) and we had a lot of trouble for some reason against a heal team. Me (ezreal) + random guy #1 (jax) got raped in lane by a taric shaco combo, it was ridiculous. We couldn't stop them... the taric seemed to have infinite mana, it was insane. Like we dominated them so hard (like made them use all of their pots and they were down to like 1/3rd health).... until they turned level 2 and taric got his heal and somehow they became immune to harass. Then we got into a few fights and we got raped, but we held them off from killing any of our inhibs or anything. We had an exposed inhib at top, but the lane was pushed so we pushed mid and they were busy pushing back the other lanes so we took every turret in mid + inhib + 2 nexus turrets before we got pushed back. In the meantime their olaf had killed our exposed inhib. At this point I thought we had come back, but we didn't have the game yet. We regained a modicum of map control and just farmed up a little. We figured, ok, they have no nexus towers, we can just push this lane, hopefully win the fight and win the game. Turns out we got raped in the fight cos my team can't focus soraka for shit, all aced then lost.
ARGH that game was frustrating. People on my team kept going into fights by themselves and then complaining when we didn't back them up. Like, we were just farming our jungle after they failed a mid tower push (but they didn't lose too many people, maybe only one), I was at wraiths and ashe kinda poked her head out and I was like fuck this and ran away. The stupid jax and gragas ran into 5 of them and then raged at me and tristana for not helping. FFS I thought I was out of this shitty ELO bracket already fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
Typical pantheon game
come out of laning phase 10-1 feelin' like a boss.
Teamfights commence
You are now 10-10 and completely useless, blame teammates.
New game
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On June 20 2010 12:37 Southlight wrote:I had Fraps running last night and was bored this afternoon: + Show Spoiler +
Wow, your early game play with Soraka looks so weird to me. I open boots + health pot + sight ward, level up skills WEEWE, don't get Starcall 'till level 13, and use my autoattack more often.
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Okkkk, I have finally played at least 5 games with EVERY champ in the game....except Olaf and Pantheon. I think I'm finally ready to jump back into solo queue (played like 200 practice games by now to learn all the champs). On a 15-game winning streak now =]
I know I know, practice games are for squares, but I play and queue up with way worse people during my normal games since I join practice games with mostly level 25-30's.
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On June 21 2010 00:18 Juicyfruit wrote:
Okkkk, I have finally played at least 5 games with EVERY champ in the game....except Olaf and Pantheon. I think I'm finally ready to jump back into solo queue (played like 200 practice games by now to learn all the champs). On a 15-game winning streak now =]
I know I know, practice games are for squares, but I play and queue up with way worse people during my normal games since I join practice games with mostly level 25-30's.
Whoa, 5 practice games with each champ? You coulda just been in regular queue with 1-3 of your favorites and been dominating at the top of your elo range right now :D.
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EPT
