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I don't know if I'd get it on Cho, I said it's great on assassin heroes that have trouble dying, which I'm not so sure Cho counts as.
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On August 09 2010 06:19 L wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:24 APurpleCow wrote:On August 09 2010 02:20 L wrote:On August 09 2010 02:05 APurpleCow wrote:On August 08 2010 18:03 RoieTRS wrote:
If the role of a "tank" is to keep his teamates alive, Taric is the only good tank. None of the other "tanks" perform that role well, or even at all. They just have a bunch of hp. Especially because of the existence of clense. I disagree with all of the people saying that the role of a tank is to absorb damage, since most tanks don't really give enemies a reason to attack them. The role of a tank in LoL, is to initiate, stay in the battle dealing sustained damage--usually from skills--during the entire team fight (whereas DPS champs would be concerned with positioning and staying safe and not DPS for much of the team fight), and to provide utility. Tanks can afford to initiate and be in the middle of the teamfight providing sustained DPS and utility because they have so much EHP. Some of the top tanks have: Mumu: Iniation --> bandage wrap Sustained damage --> Despair+Tantrum Utility --> ult Rammus: Initiation --> powerball, possibly with flash Sustained damage --> ult Utility --> 3 second stun (taunt), AoE slow Xin Zhao: Initation --> charge Sustained damage --> auto attacks with +AS and +damage from skills, ult Utility --> aoe slow, constant stuns On August 09 2010 00:39 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On August 08 2010 22:29 keV. wrote:On August 08 2010 22:19 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Okay so can you name the 90% of what are considered tanks that have no way to force damage upon themselves and the 10% that do? My definition of tank has two requirements: 1) Natural damage reduction or HP scaling 2) Taunts or an AOE stun or disable. I'm not arguing that tanking items aren't good on other heroes, but those heroes have no means to force/reduce damage. They are banking on the other teams stupidity. I play Garen all the time and when I don't get focused I have to deal with idiots saying. "WHY DIDN'T YOU TANK THEM NOOB?" If Amumu didn't have damage reduction from Tantrum, I think he'd still be a good tank. His Q and R prevent tons of damage. And in a different way, I guess his W and E help him tank too, since they're either causing opponents to focus an Amumu with stacked MR/Armor or they're causing opponents to run away and spread out so that Amumu can't do AE damage. So I'm just saying that Amumu doesn't need your first criterion to tank. Mumu can tank hard because, while he doesn't have damage reduction, he is an extremely fast jungler which lets him farm enough tank items to take hits. Note that nowhere in here is the role of the tank to take all of Ez's farm and then force us to wait until 44 minutes to start raping faces because the tank keeps tower diving and losing 5v5 fights while our team's dps doesn't exist because of late lichbane/zhonyas. Just saying, pretty valid concern. Psh. It's not my fault you are bad at farming so you have no deeps and the rest of our team is horrible at everything so they have no deeps. l2goAD. Or go a hero that doesn't need 7k worth of damage items to deal any significant damage. You know where I'm at with 7k worth of items? 3 HoGs+merc treads+negatron cloak+sunfire cape. You? A decent amount of DPS and no boots. I'm also useful before I finish spending all 7k. And tower diving is awesome. Tanks take like 10 damage from towers. Maybe if the deeps on my team existed you noobs could kill some dudes while I tanked the tower for three minutes. Slight issue: the retard teammates you give me force me to use mystic to last hit and have inconsistent autoattacking, and prefer using gigantic nukes on creeps which essentially cuts my farming into a third of what it should be. I mean, at 7k essentially you're saying you bought yourself a boots, a sunfire and some gold. Meanwhile I'd have sorc boots, mejai and lichbane, i'm spinning out of control nuking people for like 1300 burst. Also lets me control red and blue buffs far better, because shit, ap ez cannot hurt creeps. In a side lane, you'd probably have Merc/3HoG/Giant belt From there, the differences are obvious: I start taking off a third of their entire team's life with my w alone, whereas you run into towers and get our team killed. We win anyways because I end up getitng some phat lewts, but AT WHAT COST MY GOOD FRIEND? AT WHAT COST?!
WOAH
3 HoGs is not "some gold". 3 HoGs are extremely cost efficient tanking items. 3 hogs+merc treads+negatron cloak is my standard tank opening, and it has perfect itemization with good amounts of health, armor, and mr.
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Isn't 3 a little too much? :S I have never tried though it doesn't sound like a bad idea. The price of 2 HoG is equivalent to 1 sunfire cape. I dunno when you farm up the second and third HoG but it can't be that early.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Some Garen questions for you guys:
1) Does Judgement factor in APen?
2) Does Sunfire factor in MPen?
If 2 is true and 1 is not, then if you just have APen and MPen sets, MPen seems more effective on him.
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Judgment (the spin right?) factors armor pen. To be honest, you probably want armor pen on Garen to bolster his early-game ridiculousness.
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As I number crunched before, two HoGs are like 450 gold cheaper than a Sunfire, and give comparable HP/armor stats. Plus you get 1 gold per second. How much do you value the burning effect?
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40 magic damage per second isn't "a little damage", especially if you get it fairly early....so I'd value it at quite a lot, to be honest.
It all depends who we're talking about, of course.
Oh HoG is cheaper than I thought  I always thought it was around 1200 for some reason, even though I buy it almost every game on Kennen, LOL >.>
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Garen doesn't need the aura, but Shen does. He can't farm at all without it.
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The main problem with all the stacking items is that you get most of your damage from them, and when they don't have proper stacks the items are quite mediocre overall, only giving one stat. If you happen to quickly die once or twice in succession, you might lose the edge for the rest of the match. Many times our opponents have had a 20 stack Anivia or something similar, but after she for whatever reason dies once or twice, she doesn't really do anything for the rest of the game. An item that gives nothing but AP is quite weak and it delays everything else so much that I don't really get any stacking items on anything.
On August 09 2010 06:35 myopia wrote:
Garen doesn't need the aura, but Shen does. He can't farm at all without it.
Garen most definitely does, I've managed to snowball out of control in multiple games with a 10min sunfire cape, it synergises with Garen perfectly. he can't farm without it either, his spin won't kill minions in 1 spin without it but with it, he can kill every wave in one hit and jungle minions as well.
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Also, Mr. L, while I do take middle away from you, as Xin Zhao I can almost always completely zone out my lane opponent, destroying their middle. You usually have gotten a 1v2 lane anyways.
On August 09 2010 06:36 Shikyo wrote:
The main problem with all the stacking items is that you get most of your damage from them, and when they don't have proper stacks the items are quite mediocre overall, only giving one stat. If you happen to quickly die once or twice in succession, you might lose the edge for the rest of the match. Many times our opponents have had a 20 stack Anivia or something similar, but after she for whatever reason dies once or twice, she doesn't really do anything for the rest of the game. An item that gives nothing but AP is quite weak and it delays everything else so much that I don't really get any stacking items on anything.
We're talking about Chogath here. ZERG RUSSIAN, probably the best Cho player here easily, regularly gets two NLRs on him (though it is, of course, important to adapt). We are discussing the benefits of getting two NLRs or one NLR+Mejai's on chogath.
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On August 09 2010 06:27 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 06:19 L wrote:On August 09 2010 02:24 APurpleCow wrote:On August 09 2010 02:20 L wrote:On August 09 2010 02:05 APurpleCow wrote:On August 08 2010 18:03 RoieTRS wrote:
If the role of a "tank" is to keep his teamates alive, Taric is the only good tank. None of the other "tanks" perform that role well, or even at all. They just have a bunch of hp. Especially because of the existence of clense. I disagree with all of the people saying that the role of a tank is to absorb damage, since most tanks don't really give enemies a reason to attack them. The role of a tank in LoL, is to initiate, stay in the battle dealing sustained damage--usually from skills--during the entire team fight (whereas DPS champs would be concerned with positioning and staying safe and not DPS for much of the team fight), and to provide utility. Tanks can afford to initiate and be in the middle of the teamfight providing sustained DPS and utility because they have so much EHP. Some of the top tanks have: Mumu: Iniation --> bandage wrap Sustained damage --> Despair+Tantrum Utility --> ult Rammus: Initiation --> powerball, possibly with flash Sustained damage --> ult Utility --> 3 second stun (taunt), AoE slow Xin Zhao: Initation --> charge Sustained damage --> auto attacks with +AS and +damage from skills, ult Utility --> aoe slow, constant stuns On August 09 2010 00:39 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On August 08 2010 22:29 keV. wrote:On August 08 2010 22:19 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Okay so can you name the 90% of what are considered tanks that have no way to force damage upon themselves and the 10% that do? My definition of tank has two requirements: 1) Natural damage reduction or HP scaling 2) Taunts or an AOE stun or disable. I'm not arguing that tanking items aren't good on other heroes, but those heroes have no means to force/reduce damage. They are banking on the other teams stupidity. I play Garen all the time and when I don't get focused I have to deal with idiots saying. "WHY DIDN'T YOU TANK THEM NOOB?" If Amumu didn't have damage reduction from Tantrum, I think he'd still be a good tank. His Q and R prevent tons of damage. And in a different way, I guess his W and E help him tank too, since they're either causing opponents to focus an Amumu with stacked MR/Armor or they're causing opponents to run away and spread out so that Amumu can't do AE damage. So I'm just saying that Amumu doesn't need your first criterion to tank. Mumu can tank hard because, while he doesn't have damage reduction, he is an extremely fast jungler which lets him farm enough tank items to take hits. Note that nowhere in here is the role of the tank to take all of Ez's farm and then force us to wait until 44 minutes to start raping faces because the tank keeps tower diving and losing 5v5 fights while our team's dps doesn't exist because of late lichbane/zhonyas. Just saying, pretty valid concern. Psh. It's not my fault you are bad at farming so you have no deeps and the rest of our team is horrible at everything so they have no deeps. l2goAD. Or go a hero that doesn't need 7k worth of damage items to deal any significant damage. You know where I'm at with 7k worth of items? 3 HoGs+merc treads+negatron cloak+sunfire cape. You? A decent amount of DPS and no boots. I'm also useful before I finish spending all 7k. And tower diving is awesome. Tanks take like 10 damage from towers. Maybe if the deeps on my team existed you noobs could kill some dudes while I tanked the tower for three minutes. Slight issue: the retard teammates you give me force me to use mystic to last hit and have inconsistent autoattacking, and prefer using gigantic nukes on creeps which essentially cuts my farming into a third of what it should be. I mean, at 7k essentially you're saying you bought yourself a boots, a sunfire and some gold. Meanwhile I'd have sorc boots, mejai and lichbane, i'm spinning out of control nuking people for like 1300 burst. Also lets me control red and blue buffs far better, because shit, ap ez cannot hurt creeps. In a side lane, you'd probably have Merc/3HoG/Giant belt From there, the differences are obvious: I start taking off a third of their entire team's life with my w alone, whereas you run into towers and get our team killed. We win anyways because I end up getitng some phat lewts, but AT WHAT COST MY GOOD FRIEND? AT WHAT COST?! WOAH 3 HoGs is not "some gold". 3 HoGs are extremely cost efficient tanking items. 3 hogs+merc treads+negatron cloak is my standard tank opening, and it has perfect itemization with good amounts of health, armor, and mr.
Exactly, An efficient tanking item. Not an efficient team wiping item. You can't capitalize off that start strictly because despite all your strength, you still can't do stuff like solo dragon or control the buffs or pose a credible gank threat to anyone with flash or exaust up. You also don't end up taking 500 damage potshots on towers.
You aren't going to push our team to a winning position by being impossible to kill because you typically follow up that sunfire with a randuin and a bunch of other shit which makes you deal 0 damage. Why? Because you do it at the expense of our damage, and you compound that by negating your early gold lead by jumping into towers during 5v5s. Sadly, the rest of the team doesn't have your tanking ability, and if the tower decides it wants to start shooting someone else, we're fucked.
That's kinda how every one of our teamfights on their side of the map goes.
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If I get over 10 stacks on Kassadin I am already affecting the game. From that moment until the moment I die, I become a high-priority target, and thus I simply adjust my play for it. You can bait people, you can cause people to bunch up chasing you (mob aggro like MMORPG lolol!), etc. And once you hit 15+ stacks you have the luxury of choosing between survival and more damage, which lets you leapfrog one step in a nuker's life (as you would normally need to get damage before survival, which in turn leads to the need to balance life vs affecting the game).
This is why opening Cata -> SS -> RoA and opening Ring -> SS -> GA works, you might think there's a serious lack of damage but when SS stacks up high you perform your job well enough that you can invest in "luxury survival items."
Plus, if I get 5 stacks the item is already cost-effective for me, as it compares favorably to both NLR and Blasting.
Losing stacks is something you don't need to worry about. The item is already cost effective at ~5, so everything over is bonus. I treat it as a buff Elixir if I rocket high into the # of stacks. For however much time I am able to maintain a high stack, I'm (esp. on a hero like Kassadin) exerting tremendous map control. Whether I lose those stacks later or not, I've caused the other team a lot of pain and agony, both in terms of teamfight damage as well as scaring them from farming at full potential. If I were to ever drop under 5 stacks, or find myself struggling to maintain stacks late into a game, I'll sell it. Boom, I used a super Brilliance Elixir for 30 minutes, and now I move onto stronger items. And it only cost me like 500 gold.
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Hey i played some games and i wanted to ask if the recommended items are good in general and secondly, if i can use from my inventar with hotkeys.
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Inventory 123456
Recommended items are hit-or-miss, usually miss, depends on the hero.
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They're okay, if you don't know your champ you might as well follow them. I don't think they're ever the right build for any champ though, but they aren't completely off-the-wall wrong so...go with it.
Yes - 1,2,3,4,5,6 on your keyboard
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On August 09 2010 06:44 L wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 06:27 APurpleCow wrote:On August 09 2010 06:19 L wrote:On August 09 2010 02:24 APurpleCow wrote:On August 09 2010 02:20 L wrote:On August 09 2010 02:05 APurpleCow wrote:On August 08 2010 18:03 RoieTRS wrote:
If the role of a "tank" is to keep his teamates alive, Taric is the only good tank. None of the other "tanks" perform that role well, or even at all. They just have a bunch of hp. Especially because of the existence of clense. I disagree with all of the people saying that the role of a tank is to absorb damage, since most tanks don't really give enemies a reason to attack them. The role of a tank in LoL, is to initiate, stay in the battle dealing sustained damage--usually from skills--during the entire team fight (whereas DPS champs would be concerned with positioning and staying safe and not DPS for much of the team fight), and to provide utility. Tanks can afford to initiate and be in the middle of the teamfight providing sustained DPS and utility because they have so much EHP. Some of the top tanks have: Mumu: Iniation --> bandage wrap Sustained damage --> Despair+Tantrum Utility --> ult Rammus: Initiation --> powerball, possibly with flash Sustained damage --> ult Utility --> 3 second stun (taunt), AoE slow Xin Zhao: Initation --> charge Sustained damage --> auto attacks with +AS and +damage from skills, ult Utility --> aoe slow, constant stuns On August 09 2010 00:39 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On August 08 2010 22:29 keV. wrote:On August 08 2010 22:19 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Okay so can you name the 90% of what are considered tanks that have no way to force damage upon themselves and the 10% that do? My definition of tank has two requirements: 1) Natural damage reduction or HP scaling 2) Taunts or an AOE stun or disable. I'm not arguing that tanking items aren't good on other heroes, but those heroes have no means to force/reduce damage. They are banking on the other teams stupidity. I play Garen all the time and when I don't get focused I have to deal with idiots saying. "WHY DIDN'T YOU TANK THEM NOOB?" If Amumu didn't have damage reduction from Tantrum, I think he'd still be a good tank. His Q and R prevent tons of damage. And in a different way, I guess his W and E help him tank too, since they're either causing opponents to focus an Amumu with stacked MR/Armor or they're causing opponents to run away and spread out so that Amumu can't do AE damage. So I'm just saying that Amumu doesn't need your first criterion to tank. Mumu can tank hard because, while he doesn't have damage reduction, he is an extremely fast jungler which lets him farm enough tank items to take hits. Note that nowhere in here is the role of the tank to take all of Ez's farm and then force us to wait until 44 minutes to start raping faces because the tank keeps tower diving and losing 5v5 fights while our team's dps doesn't exist because of late lichbane/zhonyas. Just saying, pretty valid concern. Psh. It's not my fault you are bad at farming so you have no deeps and the rest of our team is horrible at everything so they have no deeps. l2goAD. Or go a hero that doesn't need 7k worth of damage items to deal any significant damage. You know where I'm at with 7k worth of items? 3 HoGs+merc treads+negatron cloak+sunfire cape. You? A decent amount of DPS and no boots. I'm also useful before I finish spending all 7k. And tower diving is awesome. Tanks take like 10 damage from towers. Maybe if the deeps on my team existed you noobs could kill some dudes while I tanked the tower for three minutes. Slight issue: the retard teammates you give me force me to use mystic to last hit and have inconsistent autoattacking, and prefer using gigantic nukes on creeps which essentially cuts my farming into a third of what it should be. I mean, at 7k essentially you're saying you bought yourself a boots, a sunfire and some gold. Meanwhile I'd have sorc boots, mejai and lichbane, i'm spinning out of control nuking people for like 1300 burst. Also lets me control red and blue buffs far better, because shit, ap ez cannot hurt creeps. In a side lane, you'd probably have Merc/3HoG/Giant belt From there, the differences are obvious: I start taking off a third of their entire team's life with my w alone, whereas you run into towers and get our team killed. We win anyways because I end up getitng some phat lewts, but AT WHAT COST MY GOOD FRIEND? AT WHAT COST?! WOAH 3 HoGs is not "some gold". 3 HoGs are extremely cost efficient tanking items. 3 hogs+merc treads+negatron cloak is my standard tank opening, and it has perfect itemization with good amounts of health, armor, and mr. Exactly, An efficient tanking item. Not an efficient team wiping item. You can't capitalize off that start strictly because despite all your strength, you still can't do stuff like solo dragon or control the buffs or pose a credible gank threat to anyone with flash or exaust up. You also don't end up taking 500 damage potshots on towers. You aren't going to push our team to a winning position by being impossible to kill because you typically follow up that sunfire with a randuin and a bunch of other shit which makes you deal 0 damage. Why? Because you do it at the expense of our damage, and you compound that by negating your early gold lead by jumping into towers during 5v5s. Sadly, the rest of the team doesn't have your tanking ability, and if the tower decides it wants to start shooting someone else, we're fucked. That's kinda how every one of our teamfights on their side of the map goes.
Aren't you supposed to be at a bbq? Jeez.
By being impossible to kill I provide large amounts of utility because I can initiate with E, slow their entire team, use my ult to greatly damage their team, and then continue throughout the team fight slowing and stunning key targets every few seconds. Since I am so tanky, even though each of my attacks deal lowish damage, I can continue attacking for the entire duration of the team fight without having to back up and worry about my positioning and all that stuff like you do as Ez.
After my 3 hogs+merc treads+negatron cloak, I build frozen mallet, slightly adding to my damage and greatly increasing my utility. I then get a recurve bow, again adding to my DPS and my utility, and, if I start to become killable, I get sunfire, which does add to my DPS. If I'm still not killable, I turn that recurve bow into either a last whisper or a blood razor. Bam, DPS right there.
I occasionally jump into towers in 5v5s and die because I overestimate my team's DPS. Since you play AP Ez and lane with baddies, you have much lower DPS than you should until very late in the game, and since the rest of the team is baddies they have very low DPS as well. I believe that if our team had the DPS that it by all rights should given that the players are semi-decent, 99% of my tower dives would end favorably for my team. I suppose I should tone down my expectations of my allies when we're queuing at such a low ELO.
Occasionally I do things like dive past the tower into the next tower in order to finish someone, and some of the baddy DPSers follow me when there is no need to. They die, but that's not really my fault.
Besides, it's not like we've lost a game where I went Xin and you went Ez, have we?
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I think sunfire cloak is core on shen cause with teleport and his ult it allows him to farm/push while still serving his role. But for everyone else I agree with southlight, hogs are more efficient though I wouldn't get more than 2.
As for stack items I also agree with southlight, they're unspectacular on anyone that doesn't have a reliable escape/survival skill. Alistar with leviathan? Even more of a reason to ignore him completely. Ryze with mejai's? New first target in fights. Stack item are bad items on these champs.
In the other hand, vlad with a mejai's is great because his low cooldown nukes will demolish your team, so you have to focus him... But his pool of blood can punish you for trying. A kat or ez with sword stacks just gets scarier and scarier, but they've got reliable escapes to preserve their stacks
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On August 09 2010 06:58 gtrsrs wrote:
I think sunfire cloak is core on shen cause with teleport and his ult it allows him to farm/push while still serving his role. But for everyone else I agree with southlight, hogs are more efficient though I wouldn't get more than 2.
As for stack items I also agree with southlight, they're unspectacular on anyone that doesn't have a reliable escape/survival skill. Alistar with leviathan? Even more of a reason to ignore him completely. Ryze with mejai's? New first target in fights. Stack item are bad items on these champs.
In the other hand, vlad with a mejai's is great because his low cooldown nukes will demolish your team, so you have to focus him... But his pool of blood can punish you for trying. A kat or ez with sword stacks just gets scarier and scarier, but they've got reliable escapes to preserve their stacks
Heroes that basically one-shot you (Annie) also count as having an escape, but I can only think of Annie that fits into that, lol.
I agree about Sunfire, it's nice on heroes that need the extra farming oomph. That's why I tend to favor an early Sunfire on Malphite.
Edit:
Here's an example of how builds can diverge based on SS.
If Annie opens Catalyst, she's got only her base damage, and while she'll get farmed if she ganks properly, what you're looking at midgame is something like RoA + Zhon, which is something like 240 AP.
If Annie opens SS, you may be looking at a midgame of SS + Zhon + Null, which could be something like 300-400 AP and deals with MR.
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Wow everyone answers so insanely fast so i am just going to continue asking:
Is there a side with good guides and maybe disccussions? Whenever i google it i end up on the official site and they always got 10+ guides per hero and some are really confusing for me with only text. ( i do not know items names etc..)
edit: ah and is there also a language pack or do i have to download the the complete english client?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7102/watd.jpg)
