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On August 09 2010 04:32 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 04:28 Shikyo wrote:On August 09 2010 04:11 keV. wrote:On August 09 2010 03:37 Shikyo wrote:
Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti.
I disagree completely. He has more team damage reduction then basically any other tank in the game. He has an AOE silence and an AOE stun and you could argue that the execute is great at removing damage from the enemy team. Even if you don't kill them you take them out of the fight. that is a ton of team damage reduction. He also gets HP easily and is great at blocking skill shots or at the very least, making people miss. Hes absolutely a tank in my eyes. Your other comments, though I disagree with some of your concepts, they aren't very arguable or worth arguing. He could do that with AP items as well. After his burst, he doesn't do anything. After it, the team has no incentive to attack him at all. You don't "avenge" a cho who just feasted you. You're happy that he no longer has damage and kill his team. Seems like you're misunderstanding something. After Alister's 2 abilities he doesn't do anything either. Is he not a tank? Tank's don't have to be targeted to be tanks, at least by my definition. Reducing team damage is just as important. You're the one who is misunderstanding of how I define a tank.
Alistar is pretty much an initiator instead of a tank and does what Blitz does as well, eliminating one player instantly. He's got an instant AoE stun instead of one that everyone can evade. It's quite different, also alistar does heal everyone repeatedly(incentive to kill him) and his damage is way higher after his combo because of his ulti.
I also don't really care about your definitions to be honest, I disagree with most of them anyway.
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On August 09 2010 04:38 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 04:32 keV. wrote:On August 09 2010 04:28 Shikyo wrote:On August 09 2010 04:11 keV. wrote:On August 09 2010 03:37 Shikyo wrote:
Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti.
I disagree completely. He has more team damage reduction then basically any other tank in the game. He has an AOE silence and an AOE stun and you could argue that the execute is great at removing damage from the enemy team. Even if you don't kill them you take them out of the fight. that is a ton of team damage reduction. He also gets HP easily and is great at blocking skill shots or at the very least, making people miss. Hes absolutely a tank in my eyes. Your other comments, though I disagree with some of your concepts, they aren't very arguable or worth arguing. He could do that with AP items as well. After his burst, he doesn't do anything. After it, the team has no incentive to attack him at all. You don't "avenge" a cho who just feasted you. You're happy that he no longer has damage and kill his team. Seems like you're misunderstanding something. After Alister's 2 abilities he doesn't do anything either. Is he not a tank? Tank's don't have to be targeted to be tanks, at least by my definition. Reducing team damage is just as important. You're the one who is misunderstanding of how I define a tank. Alistar is pretty much an initiator instead of a tank and does what Blitz does as well, eliminating one player instantly. He's got an instant AoE stun instead of one that everyone can evade. It's quite different, also alistar does heal everyone repeatedly(incentive to kill him) and his damage is way higher after his combo because of his ulti. I also don't really care about your definitions to be honest, I disagree with most of them anyway.
K, I don't care anymore. This post is funny though. Keep attacking that Alistar!
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On August 09 2010 04:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I mean mejai's on Cho is great and all but you can get a NLR for cheaper and it's way more consistent + it builds into Zhonya's. I used to go Mejai's + Leviathan on Cho every game but now I just build regen pendant + pot > boots + wards > NLR > Tank items > Finish Zhonya's whenever. Sometimes I get two NLR early (more AP than finishing Zhonya's and honestly, when is goldmember going to save you as Cho) and finish two rings later.
NLR = 1600
Mejai = 1235
How is that cheaper?
Surely it is more consistent, but starting at 6 stacks it has the same AP. At 4 stacks it is about the same in AP/gold, at 5 stacks it is already better. At 5 stacks you lose 2 per death, not that much really, assuming that you make it out of some fights alive.
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On August 09 2010 04:13 ShoreT wrote:![[image loading]](http://a.imageshack.us/img94/9435/apsivirrape.gif) There was some discussion of AP Sivir awhile ago. Most of the time AP sivir just ends up making your teammates mad (once they start losing). This game that didn't happen. At the end of the game I was just running around in their base nuking stuff. It was epic fun, although my team was just way better than their team anyway.
who cares about ap sivir
look at that fiddlesticks holy crap
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On August 09 2010 05:12 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 04:13 ShoreT wrote:There was some discussion of AP Sivir awhile ago. Most of the time AP sivir just ends up making your teammates mad (once they start losing). This game that didn't happen. At the end of the game I was just running around in their base nuking stuff. It was epic fun, although my team was just way better than their team anyway. who cares about ap sivir look at that fiddlesticks holy crap
Sunfire Annie seems also worth a mention. Wouldn't that require her to stand in the middle of a teamfight for an extended period of time?
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8751 Posts
On August 09 2010 05:05 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 04:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I mean mejai's on Cho is great and all but you can get a NLR for cheaper and it's way more consistent + it builds into Zhonya's. I used to go Mejai's + Leviathan on Cho every game but now I just build regen pendant + pot > boots + wards > NLR > Tank items > Finish Zhonya's whenever. Sometimes I get two NLR early (more AP than finishing Zhonya's and honestly, when is goldmember going to save you as Cho) and finish two rings later. NLR = 1600 Mejai = 1235 How is that cheaper? Surely it is more consistent, but starting at 6 stacks it has the same AP. At 4 stacks it is about the same in AP/gold, at 5 stacks it is already better. At 5 stacks you lose 2 per death, not that much really, assuming that you make it out of some fights alive.
It equals at 7.5 stacks. But yeah, it's probably a better use of ~1600 gold to get SS + elixir than NLR. You'll probably get around 45 AP and 10% CDR from the elixir so it's almost as much AP as having NLR.
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On August 09 2010 05:16 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 05:12 shawster wrote:On August 09 2010 04:13 ShoreT wrote:There was some discussion of AP Sivir awhile ago. Most of the time AP sivir just ends up making your teammates mad (once they start losing). This game that didn't happen. At the end of the game I was just running around in their base nuking stuff. It was epic fun, although my team was just way better than their team anyway. who cares about ap sivir look at that fiddlesticks holy crap Sunfire Annie seems also worth a mention. Wouldn't that require her to stand in the middle of a teamfight for an extended period of time?
yeah that's a pretty baller team
about mejai discussion, i dislike the item because mid game is where alot of spellcasters rule. if you can still kill people with mejai then yea it's totally good, but nlr gives you the biggest boost at that time. yeah sure you might end the game with 15~ stacks but during a lot of the times, unless you're fed, you have around 5-6 stacks. even if you end the game 8-0-6 that doesnt' mean you're have 20 stack the entire game, so it can be deceptive.
it just feels way better going for an instant notable boost then spending 1.3k for 20 ap but that's my personal view of it
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On August 09 2010 05:12 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 04:13 ShoreT wrote:There was some discussion of AP Sivir awhile ago. Most of the time AP sivir just ends up making your teammates mad (once they start losing). This game that didn't happen. At the end of the game I was just running around in their base nuking stuff. It was epic fun, although my team was just way better than their team anyway. who cares about ap sivir look at that fiddlesticks holy crap
Lol wow I didn't even notice that O.o
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On August 09 2010 05:05 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 04:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I mean mejai's on Cho is great and all but you can get a NLR for cheaper and it's way more consistent + it builds into Zhonya's. I used to go Mejai's + Leviathan on Cho every game but now I just build regen pendant + pot > boots + wards > NLR > Tank items > Finish Zhonya's whenever. Sometimes I get two NLR early (more AP than finishing Zhonya's and honestly, when is goldmember going to save you as Cho) and finish two rings later. NLR = 1600 Mejai = 1235 How is that cheaper? Surely it is more consistent, but starting at 6 stacks it has the same AP. At 4 stacks it is about the same in AP/gold, at 5 stacks it is already better. At 5 stacks you lose 2 per death, not that much really, assuming that you make it out of some fights alive.
It has so much downtime that it doesn't really make up for the early disadvantage of paying 800 extra for nothing until at like 10 stacks. It requires 8 stacks to give more AP than a NLR, but with an early NLR you most likely would have gotten way more kills with the extra 60 AP early.
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Everyone ignoring the fact that nlr builds into zhonyas and mejai's doesn't?
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On August 09 2010 05:21 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 05:05 spinesheath wrote:On August 09 2010 04:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I mean mejai's on Cho is great and all but you can get a NLR for cheaper and it's way more consistent + it builds into Zhonya's. I used to go Mejai's + Leviathan on Cho every game but now I just build regen pendant + pot > boots + wards > NLR > Tank items > Finish Zhonya's whenever. Sometimes I get two NLR early (more AP than finishing Zhonya's and honestly, when is goldmember going to save you as Cho) and finish two rings later. NLR = 1600 Mejai = 1235 How is that cheaper? Surely it is more consistent, but starting at 6 stacks it has the same AP. At 4 stacks it is about the same in AP/gold, at 5 stacks it is already better. At 5 stacks you lose 2 per death, not that much really, assuming that you make it out of some fights alive. It equals at 7.5 stacks. But yeah, it's probably a better use of ~1600 gold to get SS + elixir than NLR. You'll probably get around 45 AP and 10% CDR from the elixir so it's almost as much AP as having NLR.
Oh, damnit, was calculating with 10 AP per stack. Well, doesn't change the outcome too much I guess.
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On August 09 2010 04:13 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +I mean mejai's on Cho is great and all but you can get a NLR for cheaper and it's way more consistent + it builds into Zhonya's. I used to go Mejai's + Leviathan on Cho every game but now I just build regen pendant + pot > boots + wards > NLR > Tank items > Finish Zhonya's whenever. Sometimes I get two NLR early (more AP than finishing Zhonya's and honestly, when is goldmember going to save you as Cho) and finish two rings later. Again, mejai's isn't great on cho for the AP, it's great because it gives the enemy team a reason to attack him. Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 04:10 Shikyo wrote:On August 09 2010 03:56 APurpleCow wrote:Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti. That's why you get Mejai's =P If the other team doesn't focus Cho, he'll slowly build up mejai stacks. Eh that still doesn't make him a tank I'd agree that it doesn't make him the best tank ever, but it does heavily punish the other team for ignoring Cho.
I'm just saying, I main Cho and I have mained Cho since beta and I really, really think that NLR is just straight better.
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I mean really people will focus you just because you're huge, hit really hard, and are the first or second one into the battle. People always yell WHY ARE WE FOCUSING THE TANKS but honestly who else can be focused when the tanks initiate well? It takes a lot of good judgment to know when to switch targets and usually it's worthwhile to focus Cho anyway because A) he's not that tanky and can't really take too many hits and B) because otherwise he'll knock half your team into the air, silence them for 4 seconds, and eat one of your carries.
Couple that with the fact that Chogath actually DOESN'T want to get focused because if he dies he loses tons of stacks on Mejais AND on Feast and pretty much NLR trumps IMO.
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On August 09 2010 05:28 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 05:05 spinesheath wrote:On August 09 2010 04:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I mean mejai's on Cho is great and all but you can get a NLR for cheaper and it's way more consistent + it builds into Zhonya's. I used to go Mejai's + Leviathan on Cho every game but now I just build regen pendant + pot > boots + wards > NLR > Tank items > Finish Zhonya's whenever. Sometimes I get two NLR early (more AP than finishing Zhonya's and honestly, when is goldmember going to save you as Cho) and finish two rings later. NLR = 1600 Mejai = 1235 How is that cheaper? Surely it is more consistent, but starting at 6 stacks it has the same AP. At 4 stacks it is about the same in AP/gold, at 5 stacks it is already better. At 5 stacks you lose 2 per death, not that much really, assuming that you make it out of some fights alive. It has so much downtime that it doesn't really make up for the early disadvantage of paying 800 extra for nothing until at like 10 stacks. It requires 8 stacks to give more AP than a NLR, but with an early NLR you most likely would have gotten way more kills with the extra 60 AP early.
i actually agree with shikyo here. alot of people who say, oh it only takes x stacks to get even, they forget that having the extra boost of NLR(or other non snowballing items) will most likely make it much easier to get kills. so if you could get 4 kills with SS, you prolly could have gotten 4 kills with NLR. in both cases you get the gold, and you COULD argue with SS you come out better. but not by enough imo to balance out what happens in the other scenario, where you dont get the 4 kills, SS becomes really fucking bad. and NLR may have helped you get kills where SS didnt.
idk i just really dont like snowball items, but im also really bad at this game so...
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Once you get NLR, you kill entire creepwaves with just 1 rupture, and it stays like this for quite a while. I think that's worth a mention considering cho's passive.
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SS is great on assassin heroes that tend to have a hard time dying like Annie, Kassadin, Anivia, etc.
*shrugs*
Say what you will about stacks but it's the most effective way of carrying. Yes, you run the risk of fizzling when you die a few times, but even if that happens you only need like 5 stacks for it to be cost-effective, and the game control you gain from having huge stacks is always wonderful.
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On August 09 2010 02:24 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:20 L wrote:On August 09 2010 02:05 APurpleCow wrote:On August 08 2010 18:03 RoieTRS wrote:
If the role of a "tank" is to keep his teamates alive, Taric is the only good tank. None of the other "tanks" perform that role well, or even at all. They just have a bunch of hp. Especially because of the existence of clense. I disagree with all of the people saying that the role of a tank is to absorb damage, since most tanks don't really give enemies a reason to attack them. The role of a tank in LoL, is to initiate, stay in the battle dealing sustained damage--usually from skills--during the entire team fight (whereas DPS champs would be concerned with positioning and staying safe and not DPS for much of the team fight), and to provide utility. Tanks can afford to initiate and be in the middle of the teamfight providing sustained DPS and utility because they have so much EHP. Some of the top tanks have: Mumu: Iniation --> bandage wrap Sustained damage --> Despair+Tantrum Utility --> ult Rammus: Initiation --> powerball, possibly with flash Sustained damage --> ult Utility --> 3 second stun (taunt), AoE slow Xin Zhao: Initation --> charge Sustained damage --> auto attacks with +AS and +damage from skills, ult Utility --> aoe slow, constant stuns On August 09 2010 00:39 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On August 08 2010 22:29 keV. wrote:On August 08 2010 22:19 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Okay so can you name the 90% of what are considered tanks that have no way to force damage upon themselves and the 10% that do? My definition of tank has two requirements: 1) Natural damage reduction or HP scaling 2) Taunts or an AOE stun or disable. I'm not arguing that tanking items aren't good on other heroes, but those heroes have no means to force/reduce damage. They are banking on the other teams stupidity. I play Garen all the time and when I don't get focused I have to deal with idiots saying. "WHY DIDN'T YOU TANK THEM NOOB?" If Amumu didn't have damage reduction from Tantrum, I think he'd still be a good tank. His Q and R prevent tons of damage. And in a different way, I guess his W and E help him tank too, since they're either causing opponents to focus an Amumu with stacked MR/Armor or they're causing opponents to run away and spread out so that Amumu can't do AE damage. So I'm just saying that Amumu doesn't need your first criterion to tank. Mumu can tank hard because, while he doesn't have damage reduction, he is an extremely fast jungler which lets him farm enough tank items to take hits. Note that nowhere in here is the role of the tank to take all of Ez's farm and then force us to wait until 44 minutes to start raping faces because the tank keeps tower diving and losing 5v5 fights while our team's dps doesn't exist because of late lichbane/zhonyas. Just saying, pretty valid concern. Psh. It's not my fault you are bad at farming so you have no deeps and the rest of our team is horrible at everything so they have no deeps. l2goAD. Or go a hero that doesn't need 7k worth of damage items to deal any significant damage. You know where I'm at with 7k worth of items? 3 HoGs+merc treads+negatron cloak+sunfire cape. You? A decent amount of DPS and no boots. I'm also useful before I finish spending all 7k. And tower diving is awesome. Tanks take like 10 damage from towers. Maybe if the deeps on my team existed you noobs could kill some dudes while I tanked the tower for three minutes.
Slight issue: the retard teammates you give me force me to use mystic to last hit and have inconsistent autoattacking, and prefer using gigantic nukes on creeps which essentially cuts my farming into a third of what it should be.
I mean, at 7k essentially you're saying you bought yourself a boots, a sunfire and some gold. Meanwhile I'd have sorc boots, mejai and lichbane, i'm spinning out of control nuking people for like 1300 burst. Also lets me control red and blue buffs far better, because shit, ap ez cannot hurt creeps. In a side lane, you'd probably have Merc/3HoG/Giant belt
From there, the differences are obvious: I start taking off a third of their entire team's life with my w alone, whereas you run into towers and get our team killed. We win anyways because I end up getitng some phat lewts, but AT WHAT COST MY GOOD FRIEND? AT WHAT COST?!
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Well, you guys have inspired me to try out mejai's again on Cho in higher-ranked games. I used to wreck shop with it at lower levels but it's just not satisfying to end a game with 0-7 stacks after getting run over, and as I got higher and higher I'd snowball less and less.
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On August 09 2010 06:19 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Well, you guys have inspired me to try out mejai's again on Cho in higher-ranked games. I used to wreck shop with it at lower levels but it's just not satisfying to end a game with 0-7 stacks after getting run over, and as I got higher and higher I'd snowball less and less.
Your usual build gets two NLRs, correct? Just replace one with Mejai's, allowing you to get Zhonya's with the other. As nony put it, mejai's+elixir is cheaper than NLR and gives about same benefit until elixir wears off, and then when it does you should have stacks of mejai's to compensate.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img94.imageshack.us/i/apsivirrape.gif/)
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