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On August 09 2010 02:15 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:12 keV. wrote:On August 09 2010 02:11 APurpleCow wrote:
You forgot Xin kev =P eh. It's not that I don't think he can't fulfill the roles its just like that hes a 'gateway drug.' he opens up more tank nominations than I care to add. whaaaaaaaaat He deserves to be up there just as much as Garen and Nasus do.
I dunno, he falls into that: Jax, Kayle, Poppy, Olaf, Trynd, Blitz clique if you ask me. He is certainly first to be moved up though.
Nasus: Fury of the Sands - Bonus HP
Garen: Courage - Dmg reduct
Morde: Metal shield bullshit
Singed: Chemical Rage - Bonus reduction
Xins missing something like that. He'd have to get all of his survival from items.
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On August 09 2010 02:05 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 18:03 RoieTRS wrote:
If the role of a "tank" is to keep his teamates alive, Taric is the only good tank. None of the other "tanks" perform that role well, or even at all. They just have a bunch of hp. Especially because of the existence of clense. I disagree with all of the people saying that the role of a tank is to absorb damage, since most tanks don't really give enemies a reason to attack them. The role of a tank in LoL, is to initiate, stay in the battle dealing sustained damage--usually from skills--during the entire team fight (whereas DPS champs would be concerned with positioning and staying safe and not DPS for much of the team fight), and to provide utility. Tanks can afford to initiate and be in the middle of the teamfight providing sustained DPS and utility because they have so much EHP. Some of the top tanks have: Mumu: Iniation --> bandage wrap Sustained damage --> Despair+Tantrum Utility --> ult Rammus: Initiation --> powerball, possibly with flash Sustained damage --> ult Utility --> 3 second stun (taunt), AoE slow Xin Zhao: Initation --> charge Sustained damage --> auto attacks with +AS and +damage from skills, ult Utility --> aoe slow, constant stuns Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 00:39 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On August 08 2010 22:29 keV. wrote:On August 08 2010 22:19 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Okay so can you name the 90% of what are considered tanks that have no way to force damage upon themselves and the 10% that do? My definition of tank has two requirements: 1) Natural damage reduction or HP scaling 2) Taunts or an AOE stun or disable. I'm not arguing that tanking items aren't good on other heroes, but those heroes have no means to force/reduce damage. They are banking on the other teams stupidity. I play Garen all the time and when I don't get focused I have to deal with idiots saying. "WHY DIDN'T YOU TANK THEM NOOB?" If Amumu didn't have damage reduction from Tantrum, I think he'd still be a good tank. His Q and R prevent tons of damage. And in a different way, I guess his W and E help him tank too, since they're either causing opponents to focus an Amumu with stacked MR/Armor or they're causing opponents to run away and spread out so that Amumu can't do AE damage. So I'm just saying that Amumu doesn't need your first criterion to tank. Mumu can tank hard because, while he doesn't have damage reduction, he is an extremely fast jungler which lets him farm enough tank items to take hits.
Note that nowhere in here is the role of the tank to take all of Ez's farm and then force us to wait until 44 minutes to start raping faces because the tank keeps tower diving and losing 5v5 fights while our team's dps doesn't exist because of late lichbane/zhonyas.
Just saying, pretty valid concern.
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On August 09 2010 02:20 L wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:05 APurpleCow wrote:On August 08 2010 18:03 RoieTRS wrote:
If the role of a "tank" is to keep his teamates alive, Taric is the only good tank. None of the other "tanks" perform that role well, or even at all. They just have a bunch of hp. Especially because of the existence of clense. I disagree with all of the people saying that the role of a tank is to absorb damage, since most tanks don't really give enemies a reason to attack them. The role of a tank in LoL, is to initiate, stay in the battle dealing sustained damage--usually from skills--during the entire team fight (whereas DPS champs would be concerned with positioning and staying safe and not DPS for much of the team fight), and to provide utility. Tanks can afford to initiate and be in the middle of the teamfight providing sustained DPS and utility because they have so much EHP. Some of the top tanks have: Mumu: Iniation --> bandage wrap Sustained damage --> Despair+Tantrum Utility --> ult Rammus: Initiation --> powerball, possibly with flash Sustained damage --> ult Utility --> 3 second stun (taunt), AoE slow Xin Zhao: Initation --> charge Sustained damage --> auto attacks with +AS and +damage from skills, ult Utility --> aoe slow, constant stuns On August 09 2010 00:39 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On August 08 2010 22:29 keV. wrote:On August 08 2010 22:19 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Okay so can you name the 90% of what are considered tanks that have no way to force damage upon themselves and the 10% that do? My definition of tank has two requirements: 1) Natural damage reduction or HP scaling 2) Taunts or an AOE stun or disable. I'm not arguing that tanking items aren't good on other heroes, but those heroes have no means to force/reduce damage. They are banking on the other teams stupidity. I play Garen all the time and when I don't get focused I have to deal with idiots saying. "WHY DIDN'T YOU TANK THEM NOOB?" If Amumu didn't have damage reduction from Tantrum, I think he'd still be a good tank. His Q and R prevent tons of damage. And in a different way, I guess his W and E help him tank too, since they're either causing opponents to focus an Amumu with stacked MR/Armor or they're causing opponents to run away and spread out so that Amumu can't do AE damage. So I'm just saying that Amumu doesn't need your first criterion to tank. Mumu can tank hard because, while he doesn't have damage reduction, he is an extremely fast jungler which lets him farm enough tank items to take hits. Note that nowhere in here is the role of the tank to take all of Ez's farm and then force us to wait until 44 minutes to start raping faces because the tank keeps tower diving and losing 5v5 fights while our team's dps doesn't exist because of late lichbane/zhonyas. Just saying, pretty valid concern.
Psh.
It's not my fault you are bad at farming so you have no deeps and the rest of our team is horrible at everything so they have no deeps.
l2goAD. Or go a hero that doesn't need 7k worth of damage items to deal any significant damage. You know where I'm at with 7k worth of items? 3 HoGs+merc treads+negatron cloak+sunfire cape. You? A decent amount of DPS and no boots. I'm also useful before I finish spending all 7k.
And tower diving is awesome. Tanks take like 10 damage from towers. Maybe if the deeps on my team existed you noobs could kill some dudes while I tanked the tower for three minutes.
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"tank" really doesn't apply to games like LoL/DotA/HoN. You build tanky items and can be tanky, but it's an attribute, not a role. I can be a tanky annie, and build 2 RoA and a rylai, but it doesn't make annie a "tank".
Initiation is a role. DPS is a role. CC is a role. Burst(nuke) is a role.
Probably better to classify champions this way, it also makes it easier to understand why certain champions are better than others (like amumu fullfilling all three of initiation, dps, and CC, making him a strong pick no matter what)
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On August 09 2010 02:18 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:15 APurpleCow wrote:On August 09 2010 02:12 keV. wrote:On August 09 2010 02:11 APurpleCow wrote:
You forgot Xin kev =P eh. It's not that I don't think he can't fulfill the roles its just like that hes a 'gateway drug.' he opens up more tank nominations than I care to add. whaaaaaaaaat He deserves to be up there just as much as Garen and Nasus do. I dunno, he falls into that: Jax, Kayle, Poppy, Olaf, Trynd, Blitz clique if you ask me. He is certainly first to be moved up though. Nasus: Fury of the Sands - Bonus HP Garen: Courage - Dmg reduct Morde: Metal shield bullshit Singed: Chemical Rage - Bonus reduction Xins missing something like that. He'd have to get all of his survival from items.
His ult gives him +30/40/50 armor/MR, and mumu doesn't have any damage reduction skills (tantrum doesn't count). Xin also gets substantial regen from his passive.
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On August 09 2010 02:55 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:18 keV. wrote:On August 09 2010 02:15 APurpleCow wrote:On August 09 2010 02:12 keV. wrote:On August 09 2010 02:11 APurpleCow wrote:
You forgot Xin kev =P eh. It's not that I don't think he can't fulfill the roles its just like that hes a 'gateway drug.' he opens up more tank nominations than I care to add. whaaaaaaaaat He deserves to be up there just as much as Garen and Nasus do. I dunno, he falls into that: Jax, Kayle, Poppy, Olaf, Trynd, Blitz clique if you ask me. He is certainly first to be moved up though. Nasus: Fury of the Sands - Bonus HP Garen: Courage - Dmg reduct Morde: Metal shield bullshit Singed: Chemical Rage - Bonus reduction Xins missing something like that. He'd have to get all of his survival from items. His ult gives him +30/40/50 armor/MR, and mumu doesn't have any damage reduction skills (tantrum doesn't count). Xin also gets substantial regen from his passive.
Oh if that is true, then he should. I don't own Xin and his tooltip doesn't say it gives him that bonus on PVP.net client. Adjusted.
That's why Amu is *. He doesn't meet the criteria, but he also has double stun and the best ultimate in the game, so just him is enough some times. Personally, I like to have Amumu and an additional tank-like character. Nasus is my favorite, pretty much every time someone picks Amu, I pick Nasus, its an insanely strong combination.
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On August 09 2010 02:43 Kaneh wrote:
"tank" really doesn't apply to games like LoL/DotA/HoN. You build tanky items and can be tanky, but it's an attribute, not a role. I can be a tanky annie, and build 2 RoA and a rylai, but it doesn't make annie a "tank".
Initiation is a role. DPS is a role. CC is a role. Burst(nuke) is a role.
Probably better to classify champions this way, it also makes it easier to understand why certain champions are better than others (like amumu fullfilling all three of initiation, dps, and CC, making him a strong pick no matter what)
I agree 100%. The baser roles get thrown around too much and often aren't assigned appropriately.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
2 RoA and rylai is not tanky...just a bunch of useless hp lol
thats probably why you guys dont understand what tanking is
3 roles of a tank
1) talk trash in all chat constantly, anger the other team into targetting you
2)learn when to initiate and when not to(positioning,advantage)
3) CC their carry
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On August 09 2010 03:33 Brees wrote:
2 RoA and rylai is not tanky...just a bunch of useless hp lol
thats probably why you guys dont understand what tanking is
that's what i mean. "tank" has become a word like "metagame" where people use it to mean way too many things. What you mean by tank isn't what other people mean by tank. You probably mean a good initiator with good survivability.
EDIT:: yeah, you meant any character that can initiate (teamfights), CC (thier carry) , and live long enough to carry those roles out.
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Nasus is a tough DPS who uses and needs the survivability for his sustained damage. He should build tank items because he needs to stay in fights for extended periods of time and because he doesn't really need damage items to deal damage, but he's not really a half-tank, even. He's a DPS who's tough to kill and an anti-carry.
Garen I already touched upon. Malphite is an initiator and a tank. Sure he's not so good right now, but still his ability to first stun for a while and then reduce everyone's attackspeed by 50% and then sit in their face with a cleave and sunfire damage makes him a tank in my opinion.
Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti.
Singed is a disruptor and an initiator with a role similiar to Blitzcranks. He's not exactly a tank, he just needs the survivability to do his job of being in the opponents' faces and fling and dps them. He can tank damage quite well with his ulti, though.
EDIT:
For Janna, this build should be the best for almost every situation:
Eye
Gale
Eye
Zephyr
Eye
Ult
Eye
Gale
Eye
And afterward max Gale, then Zephyr. Zephyr is pretty much a one point wonder and leveling the other skills is much better. Eye of the Storm is by far her best spell and it along with a decent lanemate(Ezreal, Tryndamere, Yi, Ashe...) is going to help you dominate your lane and push the tower.
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Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti.
That's why you get Mejai's =P
If the other team doesn't focus Cho, he'll slowly build up mejai stacks.
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On August 09 2010 03:56 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti. That's why you get Mejai's =P If the other team doesn't focus Cho, he'll slowly build up mejai stacks.
I think this was the single most important insight I got regarding LoL so far. Well maybe not. but it's close. It's so obvious once you hear it... I have seen Mejai on Chos, but it never came to my mind that this is the reason for it.
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On August 09 2010 03:56 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti. That's why you get Mejai's =P If the other team doesn't focus Cho, he'll slowly build up mejai stacks.
Eh that still doesn't make him a tank
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On August 09 2010 03:37 Shikyo wrote:
Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti.
I disagree completely. He has more team damage reduction then basically any other tank in the game. He has an AOE silence and an AOE stun and you could argue that the execute is great at removing damage from the enemy team. Even if you don't kill them you take them out of the fight. that is a ton of team damage reduction. He also gets HP easily and is great at blocking skill shots or at the very least, making people miss. Hes absolutely a tank in my eyes.
Your other comments, though I disagree with some of your concepts, they aren't very arguable or worth arguing.
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I mean mejai's on Cho is great and all but you can get a NLR for cheaper and it's way more consistent + it builds into Zhonya's. I used to go Mejai's + Leviathan on Cho every game but now I just build regen pendant + pot > boots + wards > NLR > Tank items > Finish Zhonya's whenever. Sometimes I get two NLR early (more AP than finishing Zhonya's and honestly, when is goldmember going to save you as Cho) and finish two rings later.
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![[image loading]](http://a.imageshack.us/img94/9435/apsivirrape.gif)
There was some discussion of AP Sivir awhile ago. Most of the time AP sivir just ends up making your teammates mad (once they start losing). This game that didn't happen. At the end of the game I was just running around in their base nuking stuff. It was epic fun, although my team was just way better than their team anyway.
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I mean mejai's on Cho is great and all but you can get a NLR for cheaper and it's way more consistent + it builds into Zhonya's. I used to go Mejai's + Leviathan on Cho every game but now I just build regen pendant + pot > boots + wards > NLR > Tank items > Finish Zhonya's whenever. Sometimes I get two NLR early (more AP than finishing Zhonya's and honestly, when is goldmember going to save you as Cho) and finish two rings later.
Again, mejai's isn't great on cho for the AP, it's great because it gives the enemy team a reason to attack him.
On August 09 2010 04:10 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 03:56 APurpleCow wrote:Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti. That's why you get Mejai's =P If the other team doesn't focus Cho, he'll slowly build up mejai stacks. Eh that still doesn't make him a tank
I'd agree that it doesn't make him the best tank ever, but it does heavily punish the other team for ignoring Cho.
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On August 09 2010 04:11 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 03:37 Shikyo wrote:
Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti.
I disagree completely. He has more team damage reduction then basically any other tank in the game. He has an AOE silence and an AOE stun and you could argue that the execute is great at removing damage from the enemy team. Even if you don't kill them you take them out of the fight. that is a ton of team damage reduction. He also gets HP easily and is great at blocking skill shots or at the very least, making people miss. Hes absolutely a tank in my eyes. Your other comments, though I disagree with some of your concepts, they aren't very arguable or worth arguing.
He could do that with AP items as well. After his burst, he doesn't do anything. After it, the team has no incentive to attack him at all. You don't "avenge" a cho who just feasted you. You're happy that he no longer has damage and kill his team. Seems like you're misunderstanding something.
On August 09 2010 04:13 APurpleCow wrote:
I'd agree that it doesn't make him the best tank ever, but it does heavily punish the other team for ignoring Cho.
It's not like you don't die at all if they don't focus you unless you run away in the middle of the teamfight. After your team is dead, you'll die as well since Chogath has no escape mechanism. They have no reason to focus you early in the teamfight.
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On August 09 2010 04:28 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 04:11 keV. wrote:On August 09 2010 03:37 Shikyo wrote:
Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti.
I disagree completely. He has more team damage reduction then basically any other tank in the game. He has an AOE silence and an AOE stun and you could argue that the execute is great at removing damage from the enemy team. Even if you don't kill them you take them out of the fight. that is a ton of team damage reduction. He also gets HP easily and is great at blocking skill shots or at the very least, making people miss. Hes absolutely a tank in my eyes. Your other comments, though I disagree with some of your concepts, they aren't very arguable or worth arguing. He could do that with AP items as well. After his burst, he doesn't do anything. After it, the team has no incentive to attack him at all. You don't "avenge" a cho who just feasted you. You're happy that he no longer has damage and kill his team. Seems like you're misunderstanding something.
and then 20 minutes later OH MY GOD THAT CHOGATH HAS 20 STACKS JESUS
It's not like you don't die at all if they don't focus you unless you run away in the middle of the teamfight. After your team is dead, you'll die as well since Chogath has no escape mechanism. They have no reason to focus you early in the teamfight.
I disagree. With very tanky heroes like Chogath, it's not that difficult to escape with your life.
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On August 09 2010 04:28 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 04:11 keV. wrote:On August 09 2010 03:37 Shikyo wrote:
Chogath is not a tank, he has no incentive to attack him at all. His main role is disabling and bursting with his ulti.
I disagree completely. He has more team damage reduction then basically any other tank in the game. He has an AOE silence and an AOE stun and you could argue that the execute is great at removing damage from the enemy team. Even if you don't kill them you take them out of the fight. that is a ton of team damage reduction. He also gets HP easily and is great at blocking skill shots or at the very least, making people miss. Hes absolutely a tank in my eyes. Your other comments, though I disagree with some of your concepts, they aren't very arguable or worth arguing. He could do that with AP items as well. After his burst, he doesn't do anything. After it, the team has no incentive to attack him at all. You don't "avenge" a cho who just feasted you. You're happy that he no longer has damage and kill his team. Seems like you're misunderstanding something.
After Alister's 2 abilities he doesn't do anything either. Is he not a tank?
Tank's don't have to be targeted to be tanks, at least by my definition. Reducing team damage is just as important. You're the one who is misunderstanding of how I define a tank.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img94.imageshack.us/i/apsivirrape.gif/)
