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On July 24 2010 05:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:36 myopia wrote:
What they need to do is allow your team to pick 5 heroes, then you assign who's going to play who. that would work great too
hon mitigated alot of that by allowing switching, so you fp the critical heroes and the switch them to the ppl who could play them. I kinda wish riot had done the same in the draft mode.
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I'm getting carried so hard in solo queue. I was nasus. First our tristana was like "omg ashe and pantheon, so noob picks!" Then pantheon goes 8-0-4, Ashe 7-0-10 and the Tristana 4-0-5. I disced at like 10 minutes and managed to come back at like 20 mins and was looking at a 25 min surrender.
Man, I am getting carried so hard in solo queue >_>
On July 24 2010 05:42 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 24 2010 05:36 myopia wrote:
What they need to do is allow your team to pick 5 heroes, then you assign who's going to play who. that would work great too hon mitigated alot of that by allowing switching, so you fp the critical heroes and the switch them to the ppl who could play them. I kinda wish riot had done the same in the draft mode.
I think dota system is the best where you pick 5 heroes for your team and after that your players pick who they'll play. This system sucks because it means you need to arrange your premade so that the players who can play imba champions are at top
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On July 24 2010 05:42 Shikyo wrote:
I'm getting carried so hard in solo queue. I was nasus. First our tristana was like "omg ashe and pantheon, so noob picks!" Then pantheon goes 8-0-4, Ashe 7-0-10 and the Tristana 4-0-5. I disced at like 10 minutes and managed to come back at like 20 mins and was looking at a 25 min surrender.
Man, I am getting carried so hard in solo queue >_>
It's the absolute opposite for me. Our first pick lands Xin and manages to go 0-5 in 15 minutes and our Mal (lol) did just as bad). My 4-0 Nasus start didn't mean shit once their twitch was like 7-1.. Back down to .500 in solo ranked 
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On July 24 2010 05:35 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:25 Mogwai wrote:On July 24 2010 05:16 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:15 Mogwai wrote:
turrets benefit from mpen... Can you prove this? I've not seen anywhere that they do. I would be very happy to find that out but so far everywhere I've seen is they dont since they count as an immobile minion instead of you. EDIT: and lol at better benefits than zhonya's. that item was basically made for heimer, it's so fucking absurd on him. I said second zhonyas not first... as in you get more then 120 AP from archangels staff once you have more then 4200 mana. wait, what? are you trying to say that 4200 is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have? you also forgot about the base mana from archangel's, it's good for over 120 a lot earlier than that, but w/e, it's still too much money for no utility, which will lead to you losing to people who know how to deal with Heimer, whereas Zhonya's is a big "fuck you" to people who try to bum rush you in your towers. On July 24 2010 05:19 Orpheos wrote:
get zhonya for its active on heimer. hes one of the champs that benefits most from it. actually i think he IS the champ that benefits most from it
also i was wondering this. the 15% MR mastery is like void staff? or like abyssal? or sorc boots? it's like void staff. Yes I am saying 4200 mana is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have in a long game. And from your comments I'm not sure if you are understanding what I am saying by "second Zhonyas" I mean "hey look I have 10k gold the game has been going on for 65 minutes and I have 5 powerful items already one of which is Zhonyas, what item should I buy that would give me the most benefit?" The answer to that is archangel's staff not a second zhonya's if you are looking to get the largest AP increase in one item from a late-game perspective
and I don't think you understand that being concerned with what happens after your first 5K gold is a bad way to go into looking at builds. most relevant team fights occur when people are in the 5K gold range. thinking that you can go archangel's first and then spend your next 3.4K gold on the z-ring is just a bad way to look at it because you're going into the most important phase of the game with sub-optimal itemization as the most important character during that phase.
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think dota system is the best where you pick 5 heroes for your team and after that your players pick who they'll play. This system sucks because it means you need to arrange your premade so that the players who can play imba champions are at top
I have a feeling they will change the way the draft system works as time goes on, as this is their first "real" attempt at it
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i liked the dota's captains mode too, but imo switching makes more sense in a solo queue, i do not trust some dumbass to pick the right thing for me
edit: it also prevents pretentious assholes from picking heroes they think are 'better' than what you want to play, or picking something just to piss you off
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On July 24 2010 05:35 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:25 Mogwai wrote:On July 24 2010 05:16 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:15 Mogwai wrote:
turrets benefit from mpen... Can you prove this? I've not seen anywhere that they do. I would be very happy to find that out but so far everywhere I've seen is they dont since they count as an immobile minion instead of you. EDIT: and lol at better benefits than zhonya's. that item was basically made for heimer, it's so fucking absurd on him. I said second zhonyas not first... as in you get more then 120 AP from archangels staff once you have more then 4200 mana. wait, what? are you trying to say that 4200 is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have? you also forgot about the base mana from archangel's, it's good for over 120 a lot earlier than that, but w/e, it's still too much money for no utility, which will lead to you losing to people who know how to deal with Heimer, whereas Zhonya's is a big "fuck you" to people who try to bum rush you in your towers. On July 24 2010 05:19 Orpheos wrote:
get zhonya for its active on heimer. hes one of the champs that benefits most from it. actually i think he IS the champ that benefits most from it
also i was wondering this. the 15% MR mastery is like void staff? or like abyssal? or sorc boots? it's like void staff. Yes I am saying 4200 mana is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have in a long game. And from your comments I'm not sure if you are understanding what I am saying by "second Zhonyas" I mean "hey look I have 10k gold the game has been going on for 65 minutes and I have 5 powerful items already one of which is Zhonyas, what item should I buy that would give me the most benefit?" The answer to that is archangel's staff not a second zhonya's if you are looking to get the largest AP increase in one item from a late-game perspective
Agree, assuming you pick the tear up early on an Archangel and any subsequent Archangels are wonderful picks if you just want AP and infinite mana. An archangel also has a lot more utility than a second zhonya because it gives you so much mana regen.
On July 24 2010 05:46 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:35 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:25 Mogwai wrote:On July 24 2010 05:16 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:15 Mogwai wrote:
turrets benefit from mpen... Can you prove this? I've not seen anywhere that they do. I would be very happy to find that out but so far everywhere I've seen is they dont since they count as an immobile minion instead of you. EDIT: and lol at better benefits than zhonya's. that item was basically made for heimer, it's so fucking absurd on him. I said second zhonyas not first... as in you get more then 120 AP from archangels staff once you have more then 4200 mana. wait, what? are you trying to say that 4200 is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have? you also forgot about the base mana from archangel's, it's good for over 120 a lot earlier than that, but w/e, it's still too much money for no utility, which will lead to you losing to people who know how to deal with Heimer, whereas Zhonya's is a big "fuck you" to people who try to bum rush you in your towers. On July 24 2010 05:19 Orpheos wrote:
get zhonya for its active on heimer. hes one of the champs that benefits most from it. actually i think he IS the champ that benefits most from it
also i was wondering this. the 15% MR mastery is like void staff? or like abyssal? or sorc boots? it's like void staff. Yes I am saying 4200 mana is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have in a long game. And from your comments I'm not sure if you are understanding what I am saying by "second Zhonyas" I mean "hey look I have 10k gold the game has been going on for 65 minutes and I have 5 powerful items already one of which is Zhonyas, what item should I buy that would give me the most benefit?" The answer to that is archangel's staff not a second zhonya's if you are looking to get the largest AP increase in one item from a late-game perspective and I don't think you understand that being concerned with what happens after your first 5K gold is a bad way to go into looking at builds. most relevant team fights occur when people are in the 5K gold range. thinking that you can go archangel's first and then spend your next 3.4K gold on the z-ring is just a bad way to look at it because you're going into the most important phase of the game with sub-optimal itemization as the most important character during that phase.
Just throwing this here but my Heimer builds Tear Zhonya Arch in that order
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On July 24 2010 05:46 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:35 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:25 Mogwai wrote:On July 24 2010 05:16 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:15 Mogwai wrote:
turrets benefit from mpen... Can you prove this? I've not seen anywhere that they do. I would be very happy to find that out but so far everywhere I've seen is they dont since they count as an immobile minion instead of you. EDIT: and lol at better benefits than zhonya's. that item was basically made for heimer, it's so fucking absurd on him. I said second zhonyas not first... as in you get more then 120 AP from archangels staff once you have more then 4200 mana. wait, what? are you trying to say that 4200 is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have? you also forgot about the base mana from archangel's, it's good for over 120 a lot earlier than that, but w/e, it's still too much money for no utility, which will lead to you losing to people who know how to deal with Heimer, whereas Zhonya's is a big "fuck you" to people who try to bum rush you in your towers. On July 24 2010 05:19 Orpheos wrote:
get zhonya for its active on heimer. hes one of the champs that benefits most from it. actually i think he IS the champ that benefits most from it
also i was wondering this. the 15% MR mastery is like void staff? or like abyssal? or sorc boots? it's like void staff. Yes I am saying 4200 mana is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have in a long game. And from your comments I'm not sure if you are understanding what I am saying by "second Zhonyas" I mean "hey look I have 10k gold the game has been going on for 65 minutes and I have 5 powerful items already one of which is Zhonyas, what item should I buy that would give me the most benefit?" The answer to that is archangel's staff not a second zhonya's if you are looking to get the largest AP increase in one item from a late-game perspective and I don't think you understand that being concerned with what happens after your first 4-5K gold is a bad way to go into looking at builds. most relevant team fights occur when people are in the 4-5K gold range. thinking that you can go archangel's first and then spend your next 3.4K gold on the z-ring is just a bad way to look at it because you're going into the most important phase of the game with sub-optimal itemization as the most important character during that phase.
mogwai i think he meant that once you have BOTH zhonya and AA, you should get AA rather than zhonya for your next item.
you are arguing about the AA(as was i) because in an earlier post he was talking about AA and you told him to go zhonyas first.
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why are we caring about the 2nd and 3rd 3K+ item T_T T_T T_T? what matters is what you get to first, and if you're the heimer on my team, it damn well better be a fucking z-ring or I'm going to grief you so damn hard after we lose the crucial teamfight because you died in 0 seconds.
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On July 24 2010 05:46 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:35 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:25 Mogwai wrote:On July 24 2010 05:16 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:15 Mogwai wrote:
turrets benefit from mpen... Can you prove this? I've not seen anywhere that they do. I would be very happy to find that out but so far everywhere I've seen is they dont since they count as an immobile minion instead of you. EDIT: and lol at better benefits than zhonya's. that item was basically made for heimer, it's so fucking absurd on him. I said second zhonyas not first... as in you get more then 120 AP from archangels staff once you have more then 4200 mana. wait, what? are you trying to say that 4200 is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have? you also forgot about the base mana from archangel's, it's good for over 120 a lot earlier than that, but w/e, it's still too much money for no utility, which will lead to you losing to people who know how to deal with Heimer, whereas Zhonya's is a big "fuck you" to people who try to bum rush you in your towers. On July 24 2010 05:19 Orpheos wrote:
get zhonya for its active on heimer. hes one of the champs that benefits most from it. actually i think he IS the champ that benefits most from it
also i was wondering this. the 15% MR mastery is like void staff? or like abyssal? or sorc boots? it's like void staff. Yes I am saying 4200 mana is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have in a long game. And from your comments I'm not sure if you are understanding what I am saying by "second Zhonyas" I mean "hey look I have 10k gold the game has been going on for 65 minutes and I have 5 powerful items already one of which is Zhonyas, what item should I buy that would give me the most benefit?" The answer to that is archangel's staff not a second zhonya's if you are looking to get the largest AP increase in one item from a late-game perspective and I don't think you understand that being concerned with what happens after your first 4-5K gold is a bad way to go into looking at builds. most relevant team fights occur when people are in the 4-5K gold range. thinking that you can go archangel's first and then spend your next 3.4K gold on the z-ring is just a bad way to look at it because you're going into the most important phase of the game with sub-optimal itemization as the most important character during that phase.
How does pointing out a mathematical fact for late game itemization make my earlygame sub-optimal? I happen to go archangels first then zhonyas and never have a problem when the game turns into early teamfights. Is it perfect? no, but neither is getting zhonyas first, they both have different perks.
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Stacking Archangels is always better than stacking Zhonyas for AP on a mana-champ yeah >_>
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On July 24 2010 05:49 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:46 Mogwai wrote:On July 24 2010 05:35 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:25 Mogwai wrote:On July 24 2010 05:16 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:15 Mogwai wrote:
turrets benefit from mpen... Can you prove this? I've not seen anywhere that they do. I would be very happy to find that out but so far everywhere I've seen is they dont since they count as an immobile minion instead of you. EDIT: and lol at better benefits than zhonya's. that item was basically made for heimer, it's so fucking absurd on him. I said second zhonyas not first... as in you get more then 120 AP from archangels staff once you have more then 4200 mana. wait, what? are you trying to say that 4200 is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have? you also forgot about the base mana from archangel's, it's good for over 120 a lot earlier than that, but w/e, it's still too much money for no utility, which will lead to you losing to people who know how to deal with Heimer, whereas Zhonya's is a big "fuck you" to people who try to bum rush you in your towers. On July 24 2010 05:19 Orpheos wrote:
get zhonya for its active on heimer. hes one of the champs that benefits most from it. actually i think he IS the champ that benefits most from it
also i was wondering this. the 15% MR mastery is like void staff? or like abyssal? or sorc boots? it's like void staff. Yes I am saying 4200 mana is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have in a long game. And from your comments I'm not sure if you are understanding what I am saying by "second Zhonyas" I mean "hey look I have 10k gold the game has been going on for 65 minutes and I have 5 powerful items already one of which is Zhonyas, what item should I buy that would give me the most benefit?" The answer to that is archangel's staff not a second zhonya's if you are looking to get the largest AP increase in one item from a late-game perspective and I don't think you understand that being concerned with what happens after your first 4-5K gold is a bad way to go into looking at builds. most relevant team fights occur when people are in the 4-5K gold range. thinking that you can go archangel's first and then spend your next 3.4K gold on the z-ring is just a bad way to look at it because you're going into the most important phase of the game with sub-optimal itemization as the most important character during that phase. How does pointing out a mathematical fact for late game itemization make my earlygame sub-optimal? I happen to go archangels first then zhonyas and never have a problem when the game turns into early teamfights. Is it perfect? no, but neither is getting zhonyas first, they both have different perks.
the first sentence is true(as in its fine for you to be pointing it out). but zhonya is pretty freakin close to perfect when rushed on heimer.
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Gooooood lord I need more than 2 rune pages. This is so frustrating T_T
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zhonya's first is core on heimer, it means you dont die to stupid stuff early on, plus, its prty easy to rush on him, typically ppl dont go back until they can buy it.
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I need a sandbox mode-.-
Got a first-time Udyr who made 2 ppl ragequit before we hit lv 2... Opened vamp-R with smite and teleport and died to panth harassment because he wanted to lane, then proceeded to die to lizard. FML now I have cooldown...
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Tear -> Zhonya -> Arch gives more than Straight Arch rush imo, the NLR is super good for the early AP boost
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On July 24 2010 05:51 Orpheos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:49 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:46 Mogwai wrote:On July 24 2010 05:35 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:25 Mogwai wrote:On July 24 2010 05:16 STS17 wrote:On July 24 2010 05:15 Mogwai wrote:
turrets benefit from mpen... Can you prove this? I've not seen anywhere that they do. I would be very happy to find that out but so far everywhere I've seen is they dont since they count as an immobile minion instead of you. EDIT: and lol at better benefits than zhonya's. that item was basically made for heimer, it's so fucking absurd on him. I said second zhonyas not first... as in you get more then 120 AP from archangels staff once you have more then 4200 mana. wait, what? are you trying to say that 4200 is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have? you also forgot about the base mana from archangel's, it's good for over 120 a lot earlier than that, but w/e, it's still too much money for no utility, which will lead to you losing to people who know how to deal with Heimer, whereas Zhonya's is a big "fuck you" to people who try to bum rush you in your towers. On July 24 2010 05:19 Orpheos wrote:
get zhonya for its active on heimer. hes one of the champs that benefits most from it. actually i think he IS the champ that benefits most from it
also i was wondering this. the 15% MR mastery is like void staff? or like abyssal? or sorc boots? it's like void staff. Yes I am saying 4200 mana is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have in a long game. And from your comments I'm not sure if you are understanding what I am saying by "second Zhonyas" I mean "hey look I have 10k gold the game has been going on for 65 minutes and I have 5 powerful items already one of which is Zhonyas, what item should I buy that would give me the most benefit?" The answer to that is archangel's staff not a second zhonya's if you are looking to get the largest AP increase in one item from a late-game perspective and I don't think you understand that being concerned with what happens after your first 4-5K gold is a bad way to go into looking at builds. most relevant team fights occur when people are in the 4-5K gold range. thinking that you can go archangel's first and then spend your next 3.4K gold on the z-ring is just a bad way to look at it because you're going into the most important phase of the game with sub-optimal itemization as the most important character during that phase. How does pointing out a mathematical fact for late game itemization make my earlygame sub-optimal? I happen to go archangels first then zhonyas and never have a problem when the game turns into early teamfights. Is it perfect? no, but neither is getting zhonyas first, they both have different perks. the first sentence is true. but zhonya is pretty freakin close to perfect when rushed on heimer.
No doubt. And I am not trying to say "my build is better then all other builds" but my build works extremely well with the set-up of my teams and our playstyles. I don't always mid as heimer when we play.
Typically, if i'm not midding, I will be laning with a tanking shen or a blitzcrank (both of which are my brother) or a morgana and we become nearly unkillable. When laning with morgana we both run imp clarity so we can spam whatever we want all day every day and nothing can touch us or our neverending mana pools.
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On July 24 2010 05:16 STS17 wrote:
I said second zhonyas not first... as in you get more then 120 AP from archangels staff once you have more then 4200 mana.
I read this as in getting zhonya's 2nd, as in after getting an archangels. I have no idea when the conversation shifted from what item you should get first to what you should stack for optimal late game AP gain.
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you should try laning with a soraka, free fountain in your lane becomes quite fun
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or you should just take a solo so that you're not starving a teammate... =\
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EPT
