On July 24 2010 05:15 Mogwai wrote: turrets benefit from mpen...
Can you prove this? I've not seen anywhere that they do. I would be very happy to find that out but so far everywhere I've seen is they dont since they count as an immobile minion instead of you.
EDIT: and lol at better benefits than zhonya's. that item was basically made for heimer, it's so fucking absurd on him.
I said second zhonyas not first... as in you get more then 120 AP from archangels staff once you have more then 4200 mana.
wait, what? are you trying to say that 4200 is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have? you also forgot about the base mana from archangel's, it's good for over 120 a lot earlier than that, but w/e, it's still too much money for no utility, which will lead to you losing to people who know how to deal with Heimer, whereas Zhonya's is a big "fuck you" to people who try to bum rush you in your towers.
On July 24 2010 05:19 Orpheos wrote: get zhonya for its active on heimer. hes one of the champs that benefits most from it. actually i think he IS the champ that benefits most from it
also i was wondering this. the 15% MR mastery is like void staff? or like abyssal? or sorc boots?
it's like void staff.
Yes I am saying 4200 mana is a reasonable amount of mana to expect to have in a long game. And from your comments I'm not sure if you are understanding what I am saying by "second Zhonyas" I mean "hey look I have 10k gold the game has been going on for 65 minutes and I have 5 powerful items already one of which is Zhonyas, what item should I buy that would give me the most benefit?" The answer to that is archangel's staff not a second zhonya's if you are looking to get the largest AP increase in one item from a late-game perspective
and I don't think you understand that being concerned with what happens after your first 4-5K gold is a bad way to go into looking at builds. most relevant team fights occur when people are in the 4-5K gold range. thinking that you can go archangel's first and then spend your next 3.4K gold on the z-ring is just a bad way to look at it because you're going into the most important phase of the game with sub-optimal itemization as the most important character during that phase.
How does pointing out a mathematical fact for late game itemization make my earlygame sub-optimal? I happen to go archangels first then zhonyas and never have a problem when the game turns into early teamfights. Is it perfect? no, but neither is getting zhonyas first, they both have different perks.
the first sentence is true. but zhonya is pretty freakin close to perfect when rushed on heimer.
No doubt. And I am not trying to say "my build is better then all other builds" but my build works extremely well with the set-up of my teams and our playstyles. I don't always mid as heimer when we play.
Typically, if i'm not midding, I will be laning with a tanking shen or a blitzcrank (both of which are my brother) or a morgana and we become nearly unkillable. When laning with morgana we both run imp clarity so we can spam whatever we want all day every day and nothing can touch us or our neverending mana pools.
i see this as more of a reason to get zhonyas first since you dont have to worry about mana. but yes you can play with your own playstyle. zhonyas is just REALLY good on heimer.
i suppose, but we do this amusing thing where we go heimer/soraka, taric/shen, and some1 mid, then sit around in mid with the beef standing in front while soraka heals/gives mana from behind. its kinda entertaining since there will be a max of like 5 deaths in the entire game and we just win by being dicks. altho, it fails sometimes to teams that actually have a balanced teamcomp, since we have like 0 dmg...
edit: and since taric and shen dont need soraka, and mid is... well mid is mid, so soraka has no better place to be
On July 24 2010 05:53 Shikyo wrote: Tear -> Zhonya -> Arch gives more than Straight Arch rush imo, the NLR is super good for the early AP boost
Tear's too much of a diversion IMO and that's coming from someone who's madly in love with SoS... I'd rather just end everygame with doran's ring, sorc/mercs, z-ring, GA, Rylai's and a slot for blue elixir pump.
On July 24 2010 06:02 barbsq wrote: i suppose, but we do this amusing thing where we go heimer/soraka, taric/shen, and some1 mid, then sit around in mid with the beef standing in front while soraka heals/gives mana from behind. its kinda entertaining since there will be a max of like 5 deaths in the entire game and we just win by being dicks. altho, it fails sometimes to teams that actually have a balanced teamcomp, since we have like 0 dmg...
edit: and since taric and shen dont need soraka, and mid is... well mid is mid, so soraka has no better place to be
speaking of dick strategies someone needs to repost crispy's 5man teleport gank. that shit is just too hilarious and did not get enough discussion.
On July 24 2010 06:02 barbsq wrote: i suppose, but we do this amusing thing where we go heimer/soraka, taric/shen, and some1 mid, then sit around in mid with the beef standing in front while soraka heals/gives mana from behind. its kinda entertaining since there will be a max of like 5 deaths in the entire game and we just win by being dicks. altho, it fails sometimes to teams that actually have a balanced teamcomp, since we have like 0 dmg...
edit: and since taric and shen dont need soraka, and mid is... well mid is mid, so soraka has no better place to be
speaking of dick strategies someone needs to repost crispy's 5man teleport gank. that shit is just too hilarious and did not get enough discussion.
Haha I wish I could take credit that for brilliant strategy, I'll try to find that video. Although just last night we tried something similar with Baikin's blitzcrank where we would all go bot and I'd ward their turret so that Blitz could grab through the trees. Was a big LOL /facepalm moment when the turret revealed it and shot at it hahaha.
Here is the glorious video. Too bad it doesn't work anymore.
Can anyone suggest a solid TF build for me? I picked him up and I really like him, but I am not sure if I should build AS/AD or AP. I've seen people say AP TF is outdated, so I have been trying AS/AD but I am not sure whether to prioritize AD and farm a BF quickly or to get AS first so Stacked Deck procs more often.
Also how would you guys suggest leveling his skills? I have been going E/W/E/Q/E/R then R/E/W/Q priority. The cone seems ok for early harass but I feel like PAC is the better choice for leveling.
E first is bad, you open W and then it's R > E > W > Q on AS TF. No point in getting Q until you need to strip banshee's viel procs unless you're going AP. It's just a needless drain on your mana in AS builds.
Items... honestly, I'm not even sure what to do anymore, I used to run Last Whisper to Infinity Edge or Starks to Black Cleaver, but these days, the more effective TFs I see get Malady or SotD for their first item. I had been experimenting with madred's -> malady -> bloodrazors, but meh, I dunno, I can't seem to get back into the TF mindset recently. He just feels a little UP to me now, but I have also seen some AP builds doin' aight. The last time I played Tekkengod before season 1, he went AP TF and while I raped him sideways with Panth mid, he had a pretty strong mid-late game and it sorta convinced me that AP might be at least as viable as AS/AD.
On July 24 2010 05:53 Shikyo wrote: Tear -> Zhonya -> Arch gives more than Straight Arch rush imo, the NLR is super good for the early AP boost
Tear's too much of a diversion IMO and that's coming from someone who's madly in love with SoS... I'd rather just end everygame with doran's ring, sorc/mercs, z-ring, GA, Rylai's and a slot for blue elixir pump.
Tears costs like nothing and with Heimer's farming you'll have the Zhonya at like 15-18 minutes anyway, the extra mana is super good
On July 24 2010 06:02 barbsq wrote: i suppose, but we do this amusing thing where we go heimer/soraka, taric/shen, and some1 mid, then sit around in mid with the beef standing in front while soraka heals/gives mana from behind. its kinda entertaining since there will be a max of like 5 deaths in the entire game and we just win by being dicks. altho, it fails sometimes to teams that actually have a balanced teamcomp, since we have like 0 dmg...
edit: and since taric and shen dont need soraka, and mid is... well mid is mid, so soraka has no better place to be
speaking of dick strategies someone needs to repost crispy's 5man teleport gank. that shit is just too hilarious and did not get enough discussion.
Haha I wish I could take credit that for brilliant strategy, I'll try to find that video. Although just last night I tried something similar with Baikin's blitzcrank where we would all go bot and I'd ward their turret so that Blitz could grab through the trees. Was a big LOL /facepalm moment when the turret revealed it and shot at it hahaha.
Aside from the one where Kat got a lucky dodge we still fb'd people two straight times using Blitzcrank :p
And you know now that I think of it it placing the ward will still work because iirc it was Olaf that was killing the ward, the tower was just revealing it. Or maybe the tower was hitting it too. Anyways if the player has to kill it himself it'd work like a perfect bait for Blitz hook, I just put it down too fast that first time.
I feel my heimer is pretty strong, and I've tested a lot of different builds at a pretty high level. I've generally settled on 3 doran rings -> boots -> zhonyas -> rylais -> void/abysall as my core build, modifying it a bit based on lineups and how the game is going. The extra 2 doran rings will delay your zhonyas a little bit, but they give you great laning presence and just enough extra hp to make you very difficult to gank early on. Anyone who isnt getting Zhonyas as their first real item is playing him wrong imo.
For masteries I like 9/0/21 for the magic pen and cdr. Flash for avoiding ganks, and Clarity for laning presence.
My style seems somewhat like Mogwai's, fairly passive focusing on last hits and harassing/zoning with my rockets. In the first 10-12 min I dont like to set up turrets past the mid point of the lane because if you push you are VERY vulnerable to ganks. The turret placement should help you clear out the creep wave faster than your opponent so you can rocket harass them, but not push your creep wave to their tower all the time. This generally means you want only 1 turret attacking their creep wave, any others you can build should be placed further back to give you an area to escape into.
With the regen from runes/masteries/doran rings/clarity, you dont need an enormous mana pool to be effective. I'd rather focus that money into more AP/survivability, and grab a golem buff before making a long push.
Flash > Ghost because it allows you to dodge a lot of incoming cc, and if you are getting ganked you generally want to try and juke them within the radius of your turrets, not run away completely.
On July 24 2010 07:17 Chrispy wrote: And you know now that I think of it it placing the ward will still work because iirc it was Olaf that was killing the ward, the tower was just revealing it. Or maybe the tower was hitting it too. Anyways if the player has to kill it himself it'd work like a perfect bait for Blitz hook, I just put it down too fast that first time.
The Olaf killed it, the tower just revealed it. Really, all we need is someone to bait, though, especially against lowbies, or at least give vision. Like that game you were Singed, standing between the towers, most people would just go hit you, lol. And at the very least you give vision to the tower for a possible hook.
On July 24 2010 06:02 barbsq wrote: i suppose, but we do this amusing thing where we go heimer/soraka, taric/shen, and some1 mid, then sit around in mid with the beef standing in front while soraka heals/gives mana from behind. its kinda entertaining since there will be a max of like 5 deaths in the entire game and we just win by being dicks. altho, it fails sometimes to teams that actually have a balanced teamcomp, since we have like 0 dmg...
edit: and since taric and shen dont need soraka, and mid is... well mid is mid, so soraka has no better place to be
speaking of dick strategies someone needs to repost crispy's 5man teleport gank. that shit is just too hilarious and did not get enough discussion.
Haha I wish I could take credit that for brilliant strategy, I'll try to find that video. Although just last night I tried something similar with Baikin's blitzcrank where we would all go bot and I'd ward their turret so that Blitz could grab through the trees. Was a big LOL /facepalm moment when the turret revealed it and shot at it hahaha.
Aside from the one where Kat got a lucky dodge we still fb'd people two straight times using Blitzcrank :p
To heimerdinger who automatically gets like 250 minion kills by 20 minutes, 980g is absolutely nothing when you think about what you get for the money(1350 mana)
Tear has great synergy with strength of spirit and golem buff. But so much discussion on Heimer when nobody can ever get him in ranked games seems like a waste :o
So I was laning on Karthus (lolnoob I know) against my friend who was on Heimer and I was able to completely shut him down due to long range. Is this more skill-based or champion based? From everything you guys have been saying, Heimer is untouchable and the game should be won just because someone picks him, yet I find that to be pretty unbelievable....is there no counter?
EPT
