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On July 03 2010 10:17 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 08:48 myopia wrote:
I can't find their posts but Southlight and Mogwai have made convincing arguments for solo queuing, basically saying that if you premade you'll be placed against much higher elo opponents.
I do pure solo myself. Sure, you get the occasional retard on your team, but they show up on the opposition just as often. I'm still pulling a 60% win rate after ~80 games. Solo queue makes a man out of you. here's my argument: if you are better then average, you should win more then average. matchmaking works in a way that in the long run your opponents' skill levels and your teammates' skill levels average out to be around the same. this is because you are randomly assigned games based on ELO, a semi-accurate assessment of skill. no matter how it seems the world is against you, there is no way MM would make your average opponent stronger than your average teammate. here's the kicker: if you are above average, that means you have an advantage. let's arbitrarily assign a grade of 5 to each "average" player in your game. that means if you have a skill grade of say 7, your team's average skill should be higher then your opponent's average skill. of course this is all in theory but it's been backed by solid evidence as well. most of high ELO players solo-qued to the top and still solo ques. neoillusions and i are probably two of the biggest advocates of solo queing and we are ~140 and ~100 wins over losses respectively. Phreak's smurf further supports this statement because he was able to get to high ELO in ~150 wins purely solo-queing. jiji/lilballz and qtips all have smurfs in high ELO. i hope you understood this insightful analysis into MM. brought to you by the most humble man on earth.
while i don't want to refute any of this - clearly if you're a better player than your competition, you'll win more and you'll rise in ELO until you reach a level where you ARE the average player - i don't see how this by any means says you SHOULDN'T premade
like, sure, the best players might all have got to the top through solo queue, but not because of solo queue. if the five best players in the entire league were on a team together... they'd still be the five best players.
like i see your post as describing solo queue as VIABLE for reaching the top, but in no way is it more fun than pre-mading, and even the top players have people they queue dodge. why not circumvent this by just playing with 5 people you enjoy playing with?
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Ugh I don't usually queue dodge but I just had to twice in a row because both times our team was just absolute 100% fail both times. No tanks, all melee carries and one support.
Anyhow now I have to suffer the consequence and wait 13 minutes. Guess I deserve it.
I find solo queue more fun than premade actually, less stressful and sometimes you get paired with some really great players.
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Jesus Christ, Shaco is such bull shit holy crap. His fucking stealth is so retarded. I get him to literally 50 fucking HP and he just herps and stealths and just walks away. Every fucking time I catch him off guard and am about to kill him or can kill him, YUP JUST STEALTH AWAY. Oh, and his stealth also freaking teleports him or something too away from you. So EVEN IF YOU CAN afford an Oracles Elixir at a ridiculously low level without gimping your build, he can still easily get away.
And even better, the CD on it is a joke.
I'm sorry to rage but seriously. This is frustrating me. A shaco every game and it takes no skill to play AT ALL.
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On July 03 2010 11:22 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 10:17 redtooth wrote:On July 03 2010 08:48 myopia wrote:
I can't find their posts but Southlight and Mogwai have made convincing arguments for solo queuing, basically saying that if you premade you'll be placed against much higher elo opponents.
I do pure solo myself. Sure, you get the occasional retard on your team, but they show up on the opposition just as often. I'm still pulling a 60% win rate after ~80 games. Solo queue makes a man out of you. here's my argument: if you are better then average, you should win more then average. matchmaking works in a way that in the long run your opponents' skill levels and your teammates' skill levels average out to be around the same. this is because you are randomly assigned games based on ELO, a semi-accurate assessment of skill. no matter how it seems the world is against you, there is no way MM would make your average opponent stronger than your average teammate. here's the kicker: if you are above average, that means you have an advantage. let's arbitrarily assign a grade of 5 to each "average" player in your game. that means if you have a skill grade of say 7, your team's average skill should be higher then your opponent's average skill. of course this is all in theory but it's been backed by solid evidence as well. most of high ELO players solo-qued to the top and still solo ques. neoillusions and i are probably two of the biggest advocates of solo queing and we are ~140 and ~100 wins over losses respectively. Phreak's smurf further supports this statement because he was able to get to high ELO in ~150 wins purely solo-queing. jiji/lilballz and qtips all have smurfs in high ELO. i hope you understood this insightful analysis into MM. brought to you by the most humble man on earth. while i don't want to refute any of this - clearly if you're a better player than your competition, you'll win more and you'll rise in ELO until you reach a level where you ARE the average player - i don't see how this by any means says you SHOULDN'T premade like, sure, the best players might all have got to the top through solo queue, but not because of solo queue. if the five best players in the entire league were on a team together... they'd still be the five best players. like i see your post as describing solo queue as VIABLE for reaching the top, but in no way is it more fun than pre-mading, and even the top players have people they queue dodge. why not circumvent this by just playing with 5 people you enjoy playing with? this would make sense were ELO gains equal between solo queing and 5man premading. if you solo que, you don't lose much ELO when you lose. when you premade, you lose a crapton of ELO when you lose and don't really gain much when you win. MM takes your logic into account and realizes that a 5man premade has a much higher change of winning than 5 solos so the solos shouldn't be punished for losing and the premade shouldn't be rewarded too much for winning.
the other part of it is that when you 5man premade your ELO becomes VERY VERY inflated. it's to the point where at high ELO, being the only solo on a 4man premade usually means certain loss. in short, it means you'll end up playing with opponents who are much much much better than you. if you are up to the challenge then by all means i invite you. and by all means premading is a very plausible way to reach high ELO. i just don't see why people bash on solo que so much. given a large enough number of games played, you will be in the solo-que ELO that you belong. kdr doesn't mean shit.
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So, I've been messing around with both Taric and Soraka, and I seem to like Taric more. Here's why:
1. No more locket spam for Soraka
2. Stun and dual heal make Taric a far better laner IMO
3. More natural tankiness + stun make him easier to keep alive / run away
4. Better burst damage with his stun E+W+Autoattack
5. This might just be a personal thing, but I find last hitting with Soraka's weird attack to be much more difficult than Taric's (although Taric does have to get into melee range)
Soraka has a better Ult (at least for teamfighting) and a way to restore mana (I run clarity on Taric), but I still think Taric is better.
Tell me why I am wrong. Thanks.
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Southlight trying to win: 0-5
Southlight afk-ing because someone's pissing him off: 1-0
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On July 03 2010 11:27 Fruscainte wrote:
Jesus Christ, Shaco is such bull shit holy crap. His fucking stealth is so retarded. I get him to literally 50 fucking HP and he just herps and stealths and just walks away. Every fucking time I catch him off guard and am about to kill him or can kill him, YUP JUST STEALTH AWAY. Oh, and his stealth also freaking teleports him or something too away from you. So EVEN IF YOU CAN afford an Oracles Elixir at a ridiculously low level without gimping your build, he can still easily get away.
And even better, the CD on it is a joke.
I'm sorry to rage but seriously. This is frustrating me. A shaco every game and it takes no skill to play AT ALL.
I see this said all the time but ive never seen an "ok" shaco.
you either dominate or feed, there is no inbetween. He has a lot of tricks and ins and outs to learn before you can do well with him.
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Shaco makes my nidalee cry. I don't get why his deceive gets a huge boost from golem and my pounce gets nothing.
On the plus side, early avarice blade works sick on nidalee.
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On July 03 2010 11:50 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 11:27 Fruscainte wrote:
Jesus Christ, Shaco is such bull shit holy crap. His fucking stealth is so retarded. I get him to literally 50 fucking HP and he just herps and stealths and just walks away. Every fucking time I catch him off guard and am about to kill him or can kill him, YUP JUST STEALTH AWAY. Oh, and his stealth also freaking teleports him or something too away from you. So EVEN IF YOU CAN afford an Oracles Elixir at a ridiculously low level without gimping your build, he can still easily get away.
And even better, the CD on it is a joke.
I'm sorry to rage but seriously. This is frustrating me. A shaco every game and it takes no skill to play AT ALL. I see this said all the time but ive never seen an "ok" shaco. you either dominate or feed, there is no inbetween. He has a lot of tricks and ins and outs to learn before you can do well with him.
I mean playing against him X_X
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On July 03 2010 11:50 Southlight wrote:
Southlight trying to win: 0-5
Southlight afk-ing because someone's pissing him off: 1-0
Silly south, its cuz youre Kass. We cant lose that matchup even if we tried.
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On July 03 2010 11:50 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 11:27 Fruscainte wrote:
Jesus Christ, Shaco is such bull shit holy crap. His fucking stealth is so retarded. I get him to literally 50 fucking HP and he just herps and stealths and just walks away. Every fucking time I catch him off guard and am about to kill him or can kill him, YUP JUST STEALTH AWAY. Oh, and his stealth also freaking teleports him or something too away from you. So EVEN IF YOU CAN afford an Oracles Elixir at a ridiculously low level without gimping your build, he can still easily get away.
And even better, the CD on it is a joke.
I'm sorry to rage but seriously. This is frustrating me. A shaco every game and it takes no skill to play AT ALL. I see this said all the time but ive never seen an "ok" shaco. you either dominate or feed, there is no inbetween. He has a lot of tricks and ins and outs to learn before you can do well with him. the more i see shacos being played, the less i understand him. i've seen generally good players suck with shaco, good shaco players suck with shaco, random bads be amazing with shaco, etc etc. he will forever be a mystery to me.
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Lol, looks like LoL is gettin more and more popular. Southlight be the cool kid with da thread
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The new guy seems like a good candidate for Nashor's Tooth. W skill + tooth = massive attack speed, and each attack is -1 second CD (with tooth's CDR, of course), letting you repeatedly use his E (which seems to be malph's ult but instead of pop/stun it has a 40% slow). Not sure what the right follow-up item is though: more CDR? Rylai's? Sunfires?
Edit: Ghostblade pairs well with Nashor's, but you probably need at least one survivability item (and boots of course) in between.
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I want to take time out and thank a very special Teemo, for trying to out harass my Kat with blinding shot against my doran shield and defensive masteries, going 0-3 within 5 minutes, and letting me have my way with their team. Haven't had such an easy game in a long time.
the end
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On July 03 2010 11:44 ShoreT wrote:
So, I've been messing around with both Taric and Soraka, and I seem to like Taric more. Here's why:
1. No more locket spam for Soraka
2. Stun and dual heal make Taric a far better laner IMO
3. More natural tankiness + stun make him easier to keep alive / run away
4. Better burst damage with his stun E+W+Autoattack
5. This might just be a personal thing, but I find last hitting with Soraka's weird attack to be much more difficult than Taric's (although Taric does have to get into melee range)
Soraka has a better Ult (at least for teamfighting) and a way to restore mana (I run clarity on Taric), but I still think Taric is better.
Tell me why I am wrong. Thanks.
Soraka is better at healing...that's about it. Taric is a far better laner and pusher.
Clarity, however, is fail. Taric can easily regain mana with melee attacks early (supplanted by a Mekai's) and with a Chalice late. Chalice = heal every time CD is up regardless of how much mana you had, and lets you keep your ult a few ticks longer. Clarity is useful right after you channeled your ult for a while and you need to pull off a stun/shatter combo or absolute emergency heal, but that's about it and a good Taric doesn't put himself in those positions.
For teamfights where you have 2 or more AD carries, Taric's ult is far better. It gives him huge tankiness (like Mundo's ult) and boosts all of their damage by a significant amount (30/60/90). The only thing that gimps Taric but people keep doing for some reason is building him as a tank. Aurabitch Taric can benefit from Vanguard's or Soul Shroud (not both) and all other Tarics should use RoA, but other than that he really needs no "tank" items to do so effectively. In fact, CDR, AP, and Mana are more important, as if you have your Ult going and a decent CDR on your heal (through attacking, golem, or stats) you won't die...ever. Cleanse is quite important to function as if you are stunned, you can't heal. For my second spell, I like Teleport so I can push more effectively and keep up the pressure, but one could make arguments for Rally (combo with ult), Fortify (extra damage on creeps helps mana and helps against push teams), and Ghost (for aggressive Taric...who's fail IMO but I've seen played decently well).
I <3 Taric.
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Soraka is better at being awesome
I rest my case
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On July 03 2010 12:44 pokeyAA wrote:
I want to take time out and thank a very special Teemo, for trying to out harass my Kat with blinding shot against my doran shield and defensive masteries, going 0-3 within 5 minutes, and letting me have my way with their team. Haven't had such an easy game in a long time.
the end defensive masteries, health quints, and dorans shield are for noob kats.
l2p 400 movespeed utility tree kat.
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On July 03 2010 12:01 pokeyAA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 11:50 Southlight wrote:
Southlight trying to win: 0-5
Southlight afk-ing because someone's pissing him off: 1-0 Silly south, its cuz youre Kass. We cant lose that matchup even if we tried.
I tried, really fucking hard, and failed. At losing.
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okay so why is it that the past like 10 games ive played someone always fuckin quits? this is so fuckign annoying
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Taric is weird. I just stand in the middle of teamfights with my ultimate activated. Maybe I get a stun off. Half the time I don't know what's happening. The bad guys die. We don't.
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EPT
