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Trundle
Canada9 Posts
On January 27 2015 03:26 spinesheath wrote: Interesting, I didn't expect people from outside of TL to stumble across this thread. While we're on the topic of interesting things, can someone explain this to me? (image) The forum is trolling you then. Be careful in the Freljord... | ||
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
Can anyone join or do you have to be a certain rank? Also I've been playing too much Pokemon TCG Online, and when I tried playing tenhou earlier, the turns went by way too fast lol | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On January 27 2015 07:23 Benawii wrote: I see what you're talking about. Information about whether there is someone who can call the discarded tile is definitely leaked. This can be taken advantage (although perhaps less reliably) even without inspecting the packets since if someone can call then there will be a delay. This is simply the price we have to pay unless we're willing to wait for 5+ seconds every single turn. I do think Tenhou does randomly inserts artificial delay even when no one can call the discarded tile also. The message that's difficult to decode would be the message when someone makes a call, e.g., "<N who="2" m="49167" />". That "m" field encodes the 3/4 tiles in a somewhat complicated way. I had to use a decompiler on the (premium) flash client to learn about this. Thankfully the code I get is easy to read, although I kinda got lazy and gave up when I see the code. I've done that one ages ago and redid it recently: https://github.com/spinesheath/TenView/blob/master/Spines.Tenhou/Spines.Tenhou.Client/MeldCode.cs It's still up for some refactorings, especially once I figure out how I want to deal with the "player index". The encoding is unreasonably complex for just a couple of bytes of traffic savings, but that's a common theme on tenhou.net... So I just wrote a random seed generator in order to write a local server to let my bots play on. For that I checked the length of the seed in a couple or replay files. Before I had estimated it to be about 1000 characters long. It's 3328 characters long, excluding the part before the comma. Geez. And that's only used to initialize a mersenne twister, which produces a random sequence, of which 288 values are taken and hashed using a SHA512 hash, and then the result of that is used to permute the tiles in the wall using a Fisher-Yates shuffle... Does anyone happen to know which tile is auto-discarded if you call a pon or chii and fail to choose a discard in time? Normally if you fail to choose, tenhou will make you tsumokiri, but if you call a pon or chii you don't have a draw to discard. I'd assume it's either the lowest-indexed (1m comes first, then up to 9m, and so on) tile or a random tile just because I don't really see any reasonable choice. Actually lowest indexed might not even be a good idea because it gives away information out your hand. | ||
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Benawii
United States51 Posts
On January 28 2015 01:55 spinesheath wrote: Does anyone happen to know which tile is auto-discarded if you call a pon or chii and fail to choose a discard in time? Just tried this in test play (you know about it, right?), and it looks like the highest index tile that can be legally discarded is auto-discarded. I'm guessing in the case of kan the rinshan tile (replacement tile) is auto-discarded. But anyway, you don't need to make your local server behave exactly the same as Tenhou's server, right? Unless you are planning to have Tenhou's client connect to it... | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
And yeah, I know of test play. I wouldn't have thought of trying it there though, and don't care about it too much in general. I don't even know if test play connects to the server or is just a local game against TsumokiriAIs. | ||
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Benawii
United States51 Posts
Will you start implementing actual AI soon, or do you still need other stuff implemented first? I'm looking forward to seeing whatever you end up making. | ||
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Trundle
Canada9 Posts
On January 28 2015 00:06 JSH wrote: Cool! Can anyone join or do you have to be a certain rank? The base requirement is a Tenhou.net 1-dan rating. While there are exceptions made to this rule (me, for one, a few others), it is not something suitable for total beginners (see the "what's a yaku" posts on reddit) nor for people who blindly play with no strategy or tactics. It's not meant to be rude to others, it's just that riichi mahjong itself has that level of complexity. A league with ponitsu-type players or that can only aim for speed (at the expense of ever making a hand worth more than 2600) will not be enjoyable for others; and HK-style players ignoring mentanpin-based hands (both offensively and defensively) will lead to a similar conclusion: if they are singled out, it's the equivalent of feeding the person on the right, handicapping the other two players at that table. I did say that I would administer a pro test for those that have no record online, but i've been fairly lenient in letting people think and reason out the answer to the question(s). | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On January 28 2015 07:24 Benawii wrote: Test play is still server-based, although some messages like computer's discards may be bunched up and sent at the same time. Will you start implementing actual AI soon, or do you still need other stuff implemented first? I'm looking forward to seeing whatever you end up making. Depends on how much motivation I can muster after work. It's been going well recently, but you never know. Things I want to do first is finish up that local server and then write a gui so I can actually watch my bot play rather than read a series of message logs. Then I've got to reimplement my shanten counting algorithm since that is the most basic skill an AI will need. In the mean time I could hack up an AI that accepts a victory if presented one (aka tenhou/chiihou hands). chiitoitsu/kokushi AIs would also be easy to implement. So yeah, could take a couple of weeks. I'm not hacking some quick and dirty code either (only temporarily), I make it a point to write very high quality code in this project. | ||
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tenhoubps
3 Posts
http://arcturus.su/tenhou/faq.html http://d.hatena.ne.jp/genericid/ http://d.hatena.ne.jp/genericid/20090912/1252779607 http://arcturus.su/crap/c/nagashibot -theory.html http://arcturus.su/crap/c/wallreading.html (in fact this resulted in Tsuno completely changing the wall generation method to something very heavy and seemingly unbreakable!) Some of the info sits behind the login of http://arcturus.su/tenhou/prot/ - so drop me a line if you're interested. The rest I haven't uploaded or is in my head... Email (bps at arcturus.su) is better than PM since I just made an account here to post this, so I probably won't check much. bps | ||
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tenhoubps
3 Posts
http://arcturus.su/tenhou/ranking/ranking.pl?name=mittens&r=8&d2=20091113&l=0 Actually it's a bit unhelpful giving the mean position... but anyway, it wasn't too bad. It was actually far better than this, but there was a bug that made it very often disconnect which I never bothered to address. So it lost a lot of games unnecessarily. But if memory serves well, it got to at least 3dan and had a rate of about 1700. The AI was really stupid too, so I think there's a lot of room for improvement. And just for fun, there's also the more successful incarnation, which got to "tenhoui" rank (天鳳位 R3083) within 24 hours... http://arcturus.su/tenhou/ranking/ranking.pl?name=mittens&r=8&d1=20100728&d2=20100728&l=0 http://d.hatena.ne.jp/genericid/20100801/1280680066 | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
In one link you write that tenhou doesn't do anything if you don't send a discard but keep sending <Z/>. Is this still the case? I would assume tenhou would just time out your turn after a while... The new wall generation algorithm is based on a seed that is many orders of magnitude larger than necessary to prevent predictions based on the draws seen so far. I'm pretty sure there's no way to predict the wall unless you have the seed or there is a major flaw in SHA512. So mittens was actually an AI that played regular games? I'd be very interested in its inner workings; decision making process and such. Also if you have any documentation on the protocol outside of just normal matches, I'd be happy if you just sent me some of that. Things like the LN, PXR and RANKING tag, and just now I noticed there's a nintei attribute in the HELO tag (after a match it seems) that I had never seen before... | ||
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Benawii
United States51 Posts
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tenhoubps
3 Posts
On February 01 2015 06:30 Benawii wrote: Hi Alvin. I greatly appreciate all the work you have done on your site. The recent update to the ranking tool is quite nice also. Do you know if there is some way to find out the dan ranking of a Tenhou account? This was the first information I was looking for when I first tried using your ranking tool. If it's not available anywhere else, would it be possible to add this to your ranking tool? With the information it is already displaying I suppose it shouldn't increase the load on the server too much. Done! You can see the details in the most recent news post (2015-02-01) here: http://arcturus.su/tenhou/ranking/news.html | ||
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Benawii
United States51 Posts
On February 02 2015 11:09 tenhoubps wrote: Done! You can see the details in the most recent news post (2015-02-01) here: http://arcturus.su/tenhou/ranking/news.html Awesome! Thank you so much! | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
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KyuuSC
United States36 Posts
On January 27 2015 03:26 spinesheath wrote: Interesting, I didn't expect people from outside of TL to stumble across this thread. I'm a casual Starcraft player, hence it's been natural for me to peek in here once in a while. But of course, there's mahjong. | ||
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
I did  | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
On February 05 2015 09:05 JSH wrote: Who signed up for WAML? I did Me too, and I spy Benawii as well. So many anime avatars  | ||
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Trundle
Canada9 Posts
On February 03 2015 13:38 Hesmyrr wrote: Wow, this thread exploded in the past few weeks. For the WAML, what do I use for the country - my citizenship or the current place of residence? Being from Canada, the organization prides itself in recognizing your right to identify however you wish, or even outright lie. We have a Vietnamese player living in Japan who signed up as a player from the Holy See (Vatican). Given that this is the internet, I can't be bothered to check the truth for anyone. Were it a "bit" more serious, I would still allow people to identify with whatever country they can naturally identify with, or to pick one if they have multiple options. Mind you, if I were to draw a line, I wouldn't allow "Boston Irish" to choose Ireland or third-generation Asian immigrants to pick China/Japan/Iran/whatever. As long as you don't change every 3 months, I'm cool with it. | ||
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Benawii
United States51 Posts
Here's what happened: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uhzZl07.png) North called chii on my discard and discarded 1p. East then discarded 1s. At first I was unhappy that I couldn't get ippatsu, but thinking back, if North didn't call, I wouldn't have won that hand, so I guess it's okay. | ||
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