This is a Japanese Mahjong Game. Japanese Mahjong differs from all variants of Chinese Mahjong.
Also, for those of you that like anime, this is the kind of mahjong they play in all those animes, I think.
Here are the primary differences:
A) No "Chicken" hands (i.e. your hand must be worth at least one point/winning combination)
B) 13 Tiles. Taiwanese Mahjong tends to have 16.
C) Riichi. Riichi is a method to have a winning hand. If your hand is closed (meaning you have not made any chi's (eats) pungs, or open kangs (i.e. you have three of something and someone plays the fourth)) and your hand is waiting on a single tile for victory, you can declare Riichi, which does two things: i) You put 1000 points on the table. ii) You must discard every tile that comes except for your winning tile, or if you can make a kang with it that doesn't change your wait. If you win, you get the Riichi yaku, which gives you one point. If you win on the turn that you declared Riichi, you get Ippatsu, which gives you another point. If you declared Riichi on the opening hand, it is a Double Riichi, which gives you another point. Winning a Riichi also gives you "ura-dora" which are under doras. Which leads me to: D) Dora tiles. The fourth to the last tile is flipped over and is the dora indicator. This means that the next tile is the dora(for instance, if the indicator is an 8 of circles, the dora is the 9 of circles.) Each dora that you have gives you a bonus point, assuming you have a hand with at least one winning combination (for instance, your hand cannot win if you have 8 doras but no winning combination). Each kang that is made flips over another tile to turn it into a dora. If somebody wins with a Riichi, the tiles under the current Dora indicators are turned into new dora indicators. For instance, if someone wins, and the dora is the 8 of circles, the tile under the flipped over 7 of circles becomes a new dora. So if it is also a 7 of circles, that means there each 8 of circles counts as two dora.
First thing to do is go to www.tenhou.net/0/?L7447. This is a private server for non-Japanese players.
Then click on the thing that looks like this:
>> サーバに接続
You'll be taken to a screen that looks like this:
Type in an ID name that you want and then click OK. Once that's finished, you'll be taken to a screen that looks like this:
To join a game, click on one of the 12 boxes on the left big box. That will put you in line for a game. The top 8 boxes are 4 player games, and the bottom 4 boxes are 3 player games. I'm not too sure what the difference between the left and right sides are, but the top 4 are one round (han-chan) and the bottom 4 are two rounds (two han-chan). I think the very bottom one is also known for having "red dora."
Post your username in this thread and poke around in case people want to play.
Is this the same type of mahjong played in the anime akagi? It seems fairly overwhelming O.O. Might look into it after exams shall see =O. Thanks though ^^
On January 29 2010 09:44 d3_crescentia wrote: I'd be down if this were a chinese variant
Although different, Japanese Mahjong is still very similar to 13 Tiles Chinese Mahjong. Reminds me of the Mahjong championships held in Macau every year. Winner gets a million dollars. People from all around the world plays in that tournament (just like Poker!) Hong Kong owns in this game
I play this at home sometimes, but I think it's the Chinese variation without flowers (so 13 tiles per person). Never understood the scoring though, so the majority of the time, I probably won with "chicken" hands... (all suits/no honors or winds/combination of closed and exposed pongs and sheungs with the two eyes).
great game, but much funner in real life with friends. a lot of swings so its kinda whatever online. probably less psychology too cause lots of donkaments
On December 23 2010 10:14 zJayy962 wrote: Actually Japanese Mahjong is exactly the same as Cantonese Mahjong. Japanese borrowed from the Cantons and is EXACTLY the same rules.
But yes I love the game and hope to play with fellow TL'ers
I'm fairly certain that the first set of rules I played with was Cantonese, and although it's similar to Japanese (being a variant and all), the rules are markedly different.
For instance:
There is no organized discard pool in Cantonese
The concept of furiten does not exist in Cantonese
Riichi does not exist in Cantonese
Neither dora or red tiles exist in Cantonese
There are no flower tiles in Japanese
The Japanese point system is more complex since score is determined by a combination of fu and han as opposed to just fan. The Japanese system also counts points by hundreds as opposed to powers of two.
Japanese mahjong has no "chicken" hand (though getting a winning hand still isn't that hard because of open tanyao and yakuhai).
The list of yaku (possible scoring hands) in Japanese mahjong is larger
In Japanese, the player that deals out the winning piece pays the entire worth of the hand. In Cantonese, all players must pay the person with the winning hand, although the person that dealt the winning tile must pay more.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
I personally prefer the Japanese variant just because of the dealout rules - it gives players a lot of incentive to look at other players' discard pools and avoid dealing into their hands, especially when they've riichi'd.
I used to play a lot on tenhou and got up to 3 dan. But then i got owned by 13 orphans and havent been the same since. I play live more than anything. Hit me up if you want a game.
Hi. I am a very good Japanese mahjong player, I own a set of tiles and play in real life in a club I started at my Uni. I was 5dan on tenhou, but have since gone down to 3dan over the past few months having terrible streaks, although lately I have been doing well and am on the verge of 4dan again. I have been playing as a main hobby for a few years now and have even bought the client off and on (My luck seems to be better when I do NOT buy the client, hilariously.)If you guys want to set up a for fun game feel free to PM me, I'd love to play with some friendly people non competitively.
This so reminds me of the anime Akagi which is about Mahjong. Its one of the best I have seen really. I learned quite a bit of Mahjong from it and always have wanted to try it myself but I havent been able to do it. But still its an awesome game.
On December 29 2010 03:23 Deekin[ wrote: This so reminds me of the anime Akagi which is about Mahjong. Its one of the best I have seen really. I learned quite a bit of Mahjong from it and always have wanted to try it myself but I havent been able to do it. But still its an awesome game.
Akagi is awesome yes.
Thanks OP, I've been searching forever for a mahjong game Me and my friends play it IRL sometimes.
I have this really nice PDF of everything you could ever need to know about Japanese mahjong that explains the tiles, rules, hands, scoring, even tenhou. I uploaded it so if anyone is interested please check it out!
Since it saddens me how riichi mahjong is generally unappreciated (I suspect so from activity level of this thread), I'll hijack this thing and fill it with tale of my woes.
I played five games today and failed in all (4-3-2-4-4), which severely makes me suspect I am missing some essentials in order to be successful. I'll post my three recent games- can any good player please advise me on what seem to be my flaws?
Also I do know basic yaku, and little bit about tile efficiency, but find it hard to follow during the seemingly meager time interval I am provided with (15s). Does such rapid analysis come with experience, or is there any special method you can use to better recollect your thoughts in-game?
Mahjong is very easy once you get the hang of it, the thing is, depending on what region in China you are in (or other parts of the world too I guess) - the rules tend to change...a lot.
For instance, the rules I learned when staying in Beijing last summer, were WAY different than these ones. Most versions are very similar though, just variations on certain rules, or additions of other rules.
The game is way more fun than playing poker or black jack though I find. Id suggest you look into it if you are looking for a really fun social game : )
To my knowledge neither China/Korea/Japan share same rules, which is frustrating. My favourite has always been riichi mahjong (Japanese variation) though- I don't even know how to play the others. I guess because I am more familiar of it due to Akagi & Saki & Ten Toori.
http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2011033107gm-0089-0000-xdee083a035b1&tw=0 In the third game, the last tile you drew was a 3 sou, after which you dealt the 4 sou. Nothing bad happened, but why did you deal that tile? The south player is obviously in tenpai. You could argue that he's going for honitsu with manzu, so all other suits will be safe, but you don't know that. It's best to play it safe and keep defending. Heck, you're at least three tiles from tenpai - it's faaar too late to try building up your hand. It's just not worth the risk. Dealing the 3 pin would've been a better choice. You already dealt the 3 pin out earlier, and it passed, so why didn't you just do that again?
Didn't really see anything else that was too bad. There were times when I thought you were calling tiles too quickly though. Try not too limit your options too early unless you're sure that you can end the round fast. Don't underestimate the power of being able to riichi.
You call way too much. In this one, http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2011033107gm-0089-0000-xdee083a035b1&tw=0, South 1st round for example, you called like four times and threw away your all simples pinfu three-colored-straight (i.e. tanpin sanshoku), also making it blatantly obvious that your hand was tanyao dora 1, which let them have easy pickings on discards. Its better to not call until you absolutely have to, like another situation where you're behind 3k points and the first discard is a Chun, and you immediately call and proceed to toss away your potential DaiSanGen.
Had a post written up but I'm not in much of a position to really try to give people advice. If you guys play often though and want to have some strategy discussion I'd probably be active in the thread.
Just played pretty entertaining game, filled with my usual mistakes (such as misclicking a button which causes me to forego fanpai pon, and walking into blatant chinitsu) and unexpected end result. http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2011033123gm-0089-0000-xb75b1f9fc5fd&tw=2
Also the English room is like a ghost town up there. Clicked on the tap throughout the MSL Group 12 match and had only like one person joining me the whole time. Also Gospo, I'm sure I am at a level where I can appreciate everyone's input. At least definitely something for me to consider.
On January 29 2010 11:43 Caller wrote: if you guys want i can stream tenhou every now and then ^^
That would be awesome! I am highly interested in all kinds of asian games.. Allmost shodan at Go, some 12-10 kyu at shogi, some experience with riichi mahjong; i would love to play with someone.. We could create a list of interested people and maybe play some time, talk over skype or smth.. Would be great.
For people that did not try to play online yet, like me, i strongly recommend a program called "Four Seasons", as it does not have auto-riichi, auto-ron/tsumo and you can get used to tile combinations and waits easier like this..
Post your username in this thread and poke around in case people want to play.
Users: Caller--> Challera
(very end of this OP)
I think this counts as your idea for the "list", except that he hadn't updated it like forever despite me posting mine (Hesmyrr--> Hyrrh). Moreso anyone who has access to mafia forum would know better than placing the role of list manager solely on the hands of Caller... right? If we do manage to get this thing though, what client should we use? Touhou is awesome, but not really optimal if you want to play with specific player...
In Japanese, the player that deals out the winning piece pays the entire worth of the hand. In Cantonese, all players must pay the person with the winning hand, although the person that dealt the winning tile must pay more.
This is actually the same for the Chinese rules. The player that deals out the winning piece pays the entire worth of the hand.
Is anyone up for a game? Currently waiting for players at the Tenhou English channel - http://tenhou.net/0/?L7447 - though I'd accept better alternatives (also have mahjongtimes ID though the format of that website is uncomfortable to me for some reason) as well.
Edit: No longer valid. I will definitely be available for lengthy amount of time during April 5th (East Canadian time) if anyone is interested.
wow i'm definitely going to check this stuff out. i think richii mahjong is definitely the best mahjong although i think the richii is slightly overpowered. i wish there were different forms of richii to lessen how much someone can just luck their way into a high scoring hand without development in the rest of the game.
are you guys playing for money on that website or is it just a matchmaking system?
my parents (I'm chinese) play the chinese variant of this, but I mainly have been interested in the japanese mahjong after watching/was going to sub the saki anime (though I haven't been playing mahjong for quite awhile now, ever since sc2 came out....)
On April 06 2011 09:33 cynical wrote: Man i can't believe there's a thread for this. I didn't think anybody knew about tenhou but me. Give me a PM if you want to game it up. 3 Dan player.
On a side note, I had a picture of me hitting 13 orphans but I lost it You believe me right? :D
You go from 9 kyuu to 1 kyuu, then 1 dan to 10 dan. Though I don't necessarily advise being concerned with getting higher ranks like me, I do strongly advise aiming for dan rank and possibly even >R1800 so you can play on "better" lobbies.
On a side note I didn't even think so much about my rank til I fell from 2 dan to 1 dan due to thirteen-4th place streak I ranted in this thread about. Which made me kinda obsessed about getting 2 dan status back, but honestly this is not a mindset you want to be in if you want to play well =/
Hm, if you play only the east round, will you gain more points? Or rather, will you rise faster in the rankings(because you play more games in the same amount of time)?
General advise is that you play 'east rounds only' in the common lobby, and play only 'full hanchan' whence upon reaching the dan lobby. Tonpuusen is much more luck-dependent. And do play in dan lobby when the option immediately becomes available; opponents are understandably more tougher but it is more beneficial in terms of points gained.
Edit: If you intend to rise in points, another essential advice is avoid 4th place at all costs. If you see the link I referred to at above post at mine, getting 4th can literally devastate your score. Spazer has helpfully pointed out that kyuu ranks only gain score by attaining 1st place, and there are absolutely no point loss even if you get 4th place.
On April 07 2011 06:42 Hesmyrr wrote: General advise is that you play 'east rounds only' in the common lobby, and play only 'full hanchan' whence upon reaching the dan lobby. Tonpuusen is much more luck-dependent. And do play in dan lobby when the option immediately becomes available; opponents are understandably more tougher but it is more beneficial in terms of points gained.
Edit: If you intend to rise in points, another essential advice is avoid 4th place at all costs. If you see the link I referred to at above post at mine, getting 4th can literally devastate your score.
Played 'full hanchan' like all the time. I like it but somehow I wasn't too lucky so far. Every time I'm in riichi, I auto-deal into someones hand, lol. If that happens like two times in one round, you are already f'ed up
Hesmyrr, second page Also I do know basic yaku, and little bit about tile efficiency, but find it hard to follow during the seemingly meager time interval I am provided with (15s). Does such rapid analysis come with experience, or is there any special method you can use to better recollect your thoughts in-game?
lol. And even then I always make lengthy pause at the 'decisive' moment wondering whether to fold & if not what is likely safety tile. Can't imagine how terrible I would be in the fast room xD
I too played Full Hanchan all the time. Since east round only is much shorter, the strategy is different and some do advise not playing this settings if you aren't confident in your skills/want to become better because it can create 'bad habit'. Matter of preference, actually.
On April 07 2011 06:42 Hesmyrr wrote: Edit: If you intend to rise in points, another essential advice is avoid 4th place at all costs. If you see the link I referred to at above post at mine, getting 4th can literally devastate your score.
That's actually not right. If you hover over the join button, you can see the point gains. For kyu ranks, only first place gains points (tonpuusen is +30, hanchan is +45). 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place finishers don't gain or lose points. Placement only matters in high kyu and the dan ranks.
Edit: That said, you should avoid 4th place anyways, for obvious reasons.
Aren't there any longer rounds? Tried the east round one but got f'ed as well. I mean, why would you declare riichi if you have only one out? And being the unlucky player that I am, I even play the tile in the exact same round >_<
Well, I never played East round but I guess everyone would rush for any hand considering how short Toupuusen is. Full Hanchan is the longest setting- and it should be lengthy enough. Maybe you can post a few of your games like I did? I am not very good, but perhaps the community's veterans can take look at it and suggest few things. You make it sound like you are walking into every riichi your opponents make
Edit: Just in case, games played on the computer is "stored" and can be reviewed anytime using the top fourth tap to the left. Copy and paste the links for viewing convenience.
On April 07 2011 07:33 Lucumo wrote: Aren't there any longer rounds? Tried the east round one but got f'ed as well. I mean, why would you declare riichi if you have only one out? And being the unlucky player that I am, I even play the tile in the exact same round >_<
Sometimes you have to declare riichi depending on the situation. Maybe the riichi is the only han you have. Or maybe you need that extra han to get you to mangan, haneman, or you just want to instill fear into your opponents
What i wish they had was the option to open riichi for a possible 2 han. Now that was would badass!
Btw, my ID is cYnical mostly playing in the full hanchan sessions with the red dora(3rd down to the right)
On April 07 2011 07:33 Lucumo wrote: Aren't there any longer rounds? Tried the east round one but got f'ed as well. I mean, why would you declare riichi if you have only one out? And being the unlucky player that I am, I even play the tile in the exact same round >_<
Dealing into a hand is usually entirely your fault though. You always have the choice to take apart your hand and play defensively because of the concept of furiten. It's all about the risk/reward.
On April 07 2011 07:33 Lucumo wrote: Aren't there any longer rounds? Tried the east round one but got f'ed as well. I mean, why would you declare riichi if you have only one out? And being the unlucky player that I am, I even play the tile in the exact same round >_<
Dealing into a hand is usually entirely your fault though. You always have the choice to take apart your hand and play defensively because of the concept of furiten. It's all about the risk/reward.
You can't expect a hellish wait, that's just insane. And I often deal into the opponents riichi right after they declared it in the 2nd-4th turn. There aren't many tiles on the table, how am I supposed to know what to deal and what to avoid? =/
Oh man, that's seriously unlucky then. At least you are kyuu rank. In a way it's a good thing since you are spending all your "bad luck" during the period when repurcussions are miniscule?
Ha ha, I wish that was the case. But often times I'm really unlucky and other times I'm pretty lucky, it's pretty streaky. Just now, I won 3 out of 4 rounds, for example. Well, I went fast riichi and didn't care about the points, but still...
I know how to play but it's not like they are going for any hands. And when there are only 2-4 tiles in the pond, you can't analyze anything anyway, especially when it's only wind+honor.
/edit: While I was in riichi, I just made someone win again...or rather, two. How is that possible? Doesn't normally win the one who is on the right side of me? But both won and I lost more than 240k points, what the hell? =( And sometimes a round is restarted. Why is that the case?
On April 07 2011 08:42 Lucumo wrote: I know how to play but it's not like they are going for any hands. And when there are only 2-4 tiles in the pond, you can't analyze anything anyway, especially when it's only wind+honor.
/edit: While I was in riichi, I just made someone win again...or rather, two. How is that possible? Doesn't normally win the one who is on the right side of me? But both won and I lost more than 240k points, what the hell? =( And sometimes a round is restarted. Why is that the case?
In Tenhou, there is no "head bump" in the rules: in fact, more than one person can Ron off of you. There have been occasions where three people ron on the same tile, and in fact this youtube video shows the resulting pain (although this is janryumon, not tenhou)
Players occasionally receive 9+ honor and end tiles in their hands. When this happens, they can choose to reveal their hand and start the round over. However, real men do not reveal their hand and go for the kokushi.
On April 07 2011 08:42 Lucumo wrote: I know how to play but it's not like they are going for any hands. And when there are only 2-4 tiles in the pond, you can't analyze anything anyway, especially when it's only wind+honor.
/edit: While I was in riichi, I just made someone win again...or rather, two. How is that possible? Doesn't normally win the one who is on the right side of me? But both won and I lost more than 240k points, what the hell? =( And sometimes a round is restarted. Why is that the case?
That is what's called the double ron(or however you spell it). If two people are waiting on the same tile, you have to pay out to them both.
As for the round restart, if the dealer wins a hand(whoever is east wind is the dealer) the winds do not pass and you have a second set with the same winds.
On April 07 2011 08:42 Lucumo wrote: I know how to play but it's not like they are going for any hands. And when there are only 2-4 tiles in the pond, you can't analyze anything anyway, especially when it's only wind+honor.
/edit: While I was in riichi, I just made someone win again...or rather, two. How is that possible? Doesn't normally win the one who is on the right side of me? But both won and I lost more than 240k points, what the hell? =( And sometimes a round is restarted. Why is that the case?
In Tenhou, there is no "head bump" in the rules: in fact, more than one person can Ron off of you. There have been occasions where three people ron on the same tile, and in fact this youtube video shows the resulting pain (although this is janryumon, not tenhou)
On April 07 2011 08:42 Lucumo wrote: I know how to play but it's not like they are going for any hands. And when there are only 2-4 tiles in the pond, you can't analyze anything anyway, especially when it's only wind+honor.
/edit: While I was in riichi, I just made someone win again...or rather, two. How is that possible? Doesn't normally win the one who is on the right side of me? But both won and I lost more than 240k points, what the hell? =( And sometimes a round is restarted. Why is that the case?
As for the round restart, if the dealer wins a hand(whoever is east wind is the dealer) the winds do not pass and you have a second set with the same winds.
But why do they start the round in the first place? I mean, they start, then 2-3 tiles are being played and then the round restarts.
On April 07 2011 08:42 Lucumo wrote: I know how to play but it's not like they are going for any hands. And when there are only 2-4 tiles in the pond, you can't analyze anything anyway, especially when it's only wind+honor.
/edit: While I was in riichi, I just made someone win again...or rather, two. How is that possible? Doesn't normally win the one who is on the right side of me? But both won and I lost more than 240k points, what the hell? =( And sometimes a round is restarted. Why is that the case?
In Tenhou, there is no "head bump" in the rules: in fact, more than one person can Ron off of you. There have been occasions where three people ron on the same tile, and in fact this youtube video shows the resulting pain (although this is janryumon, not tenhou)
On April 07 2011 08:42 Lucumo wrote: I know how to play but it's not like they are going for any hands. And when there are only 2-4 tiles in the pond, you can't analyze anything anyway, especially when it's only wind+honor.
/edit: While I was in riichi, I just made someone win again...or rather, two. How is that possible? Doesn't normally win the one who is on the right side of me? But both won and I lost more than 240k points, what the hell? =( And sometimes a round is restarted. Why is that the case?
As for the round restart, if the dealer wins a hand(whoever is east wind is the dealer) the winds do not pass and you have a second set with the same winds.
But why do they start the round in the first place? I mean, they start, then 2-3 tiles are being played and then the round restarts.
there are several different scnearios that lead to a draw, one being having 9 terminal and honor tiles, another being if the same wind is discarded by all players, and even one where 4 kans are made total (combined at least by 2 different players, one player that makes 4 kans is a yakuman)
Anyways I'm going to consider starting up a weekly mahjong game, starting this Friday. PM me if you're interested and what times you'll be available, and I'll look for a ventrilo/teamspeak something that we can use.
So I was having what one would call a "good flow" and is in commanding lead, then gets freaking disconnected in middle of East-4. Comes hurrying back but not before I get Baiman'd (12000pts) by retarded AI . Rest is me completely losing my composure, trying to push every hand in risky fashion in order to get the first place I "deserved" back, and promptly failing down to 4th.
...Don't play like this.
Edit: @Caller Not sure, but I'll probably know more after 20th.
On April 08 2011 05:52 Hesmyrr wrote: So I was having what one would call a "good flow" and is in commanding lead, then gets freaking disconnected in middle of East-4. Comes hurrying back but not before I get Baiman'd (12000pts) by retarded AI .
Haha, happened to me yesterday as well. It sucks so much D:
btw: Isn't 'full hanchan' supposed to be at least 8 rounds long? But it often ends before that...
On April 08 2011 06:50 Hesmyrr wrote: Are you sure you are playing on the option I marked with red? There indeed should be 8 rounds; 4 East and 4 South.
Nah, I play the one below, the fast one Shouldn't make a difference though but it often ends after 5-6 rounds or so which is weird. Hm, maybe they transfer me to the East only one because they can't find any players?
Just checked it, I'm pretty sure. My last game was 8 rounds long, the one before was 5 rounds long. And I'm 100% sure I clicked 'full hanchan', both times.
If someone dips below 0 the game ends. On the other end, if it's the final round of a tonpuusen or tonnansen and everyone is below 30k points, it continues to the next wind round
It's even possible for the game to end on the very first round if the oya keeps winning and brings someone down below 0 on tenhou
Looked through it already but it's the standard East round, only that it wasn't supposed to be one. My guess is that they move players after those waited for X minutes. I mean, I was the only one waiting for a game in fast 'full hanchan'.
On April 08 2011 07:24 cyxx wrote: If someone dips below 0 the game ends. On the other end, if it's the final round of a tonpuusen or tonnansen and everyone is below 30k points, it continues to the next wind round
It's even possible for the game to end on the very first round if the oya keeps winning and brings someone down below 0 on tenhou
Woah, you are so knowledgable ^_^ I'm certain that was the case several time. You only start with 250k after all, which isn't much. 1 1/2 hits and you are pretty much dead.
Thank you for letting me know
/edit: And yeah, this is what happened in the 5 rounds game. Someone fell below 0 points. Some guy had riichi in the second round and the poor guy played right into his hand, losing 180k and he only had ~130k left.
On April 08 2011 07:30 Lucumo wrote: Looked through it already but it's the standard East round, only that it wasn't supposed to be one. My guess is that they move players after those waited for X minutes. I mean, I was the only one waiting for a game in fast 'full hanchan'.
On April 08 2011 07:24 cyxx wrote: If someone dips below 0 the game ends. On the other end, if it's the final round of a tonpuusen or tonnansen and everyone is below 30k points, it continues to the next wind round
It's even possible for the game to end on the very first round if the oya keeps winning and brings someone down below 0 on tenhou
Woah, you are so knowledgable ^_^ I'm certain that was the case several time. You only start with 250k after all, which isn't much. 1 1/2 hits and you are pretty much dead.
Thank you for letting me know
in the east first round i was south and one-shot the dealer with a daisangen ron
the game ends when a) round limit reached and a player is above 30k b) a player is under 0 (they can still be in the game with 0, except they can no longer riichi as they no longer have any points to riichi with) c) the dealer wins/ties 8 games in a row (although thats usually considered the dealer's yakuman, this usually ends the game) c is so ridiculously uncommon that it never happens.
lol Caller. Lucumo completely raped you with one hand.
And Lucumo, were you trying for Kokushi on that first (or second? Can't remember) hand or something? I couldn't really tell because you kept drawing pretty horrible tiles.
On April 08 2011 09:07 cynical wrote: you guys playing again??? I want in
I'm here until 10PM, don't know about others since I already left. Even if it is dissolved for today looks like we'll keep meeting on that irc channel though.
On April 08 2011 09:07 cynical wrote: you guys playing again??? I want in
I'm here until 10PM, don't know about others since I already left. Even if it is dissolved for today looks like we'll keep meeting on that irc channel though.
I don't have irc. Is there another channel for us to meet up?
On April 08 2011 09:07 cynical wrote: you guys playing again??? I want in
I'm here until 10PM, don't know about others since I already left. Even if it is dissolved for today looks like we'll keep meeting on that irc channel though.
I don't have irc. Is there another channel for us to meet up?
Just download mirc. I did too and took me like minute to figure it out despite me having never tried it. At least better than Ventrilo Caller wanted us to use D:
Edit: Or maybe you can suggest better alternative if you can.
On April 08 2011 09:07 cynical wrote: you guys playing again??? I want in
I'm here until 10PM, don't know about others since I already left. Even if it is dissolved for today looks like we'll keep meeting on that irc channel though.
I don't have irc. Is there another channel for us to meet up?
Just download mirc. I did too and took me like minute to figure it out despite me having never tried it. At least better than Ventrilo Caller wanted us to use D:
Edit: Or maybe you can suggest better alternative if you can.
On April 08 2011 09:07 Spazer wrote: And Lucumo, were you trying for Kokushi on that first (or second? Can't remember) hand or something? I couldn't really tell because you kept drawing pretty horrible tiles.
Don't know the Japanese names but I guess you are talking about "13 Orphans" and yes, I was going for that. The hand was so bad, so I decided to just do that but well, the draws didn't really help.
I didn't know that people can still win even when they aren't playing anymore -.- A player who disconnected during the last round, tsumo'ed and won the game.
Or maybe he came back, right before he got the tile. Doubt that though, the name's color didn't change.
Maybe he disconnected after being in tenpai, with auto-win option turned on? Don't know if it is active even for afk players but that seems to be the only explanation I can think of...
There is an auto-win option? If there is, pretty sure he activated it then. Because of that(and because of my terrible luck) I failed to take the first position(he was the leader). Made me so sad
I play at hangame with the same username. I suggest learning all the yakus before you start playing or else you have no idea what youre doing. I wish it was as simple as the op made it seem. ^^
My games seemed to be materializing pretty well today, so I crunched in several hanchan sessions between brief breaks and managed to recover my status as 2 dan. Plenty of occasions where I won the hand I really didn't deserve, but meh. Who can reject Goddess of Victory when she comes knocking?
On April 09 2011 23:06 Robinsa wrote: I play at hangame with the same username. I suggest learning all the yakus before you start playing or else you have no idea what youre doing. I wish it was as simple as the op made it seem. ^^
It's really not as hard to memorize as you think, I picked up on all the stuff within a nights worth of games (4 hours worth) when I first started with friends and NONE of us knew wtf was going on.
On April 09 2011 23:06 Robinsa wrote: I play at hangame with the same username. I suggest learning all the yakus before you start playing or else you have no idea what youre doing. I wish it was as simple as the op made it seem. ^^
It's really not as hard to memorize as you think, I picked up on all the stuff within a nights worth of games (4 hours worth) when I first started with friends and NONE of us knew wtf was going on.
Most of yaku structure indeed are really straightforward, and thus think can be easily memorized. The part I had struggle with the most was actually whether it can be open or not :p And knowing yaku is far different from knowing how to "build" one.
On April 10 2011 06:05 Hesmyrr wrote: My games seemed to be materializing pretty well today, so I crunched in several hanchan sessions between brief breaks and managed to recover my status as 2 dan. Plenty of occasions where I won the hand I really didn't deserve, but meh. Who can reject Goddess of Victory when she comes knocking?
You lucky one, it's quite the opposite for me. For some reason, when I play with you guys, I'm luckier. When I play with the Japanese, I only get 1-5-9 or 2-5-8 and draw honor tiles like all the time. Or I discard one and pick the same up in the next round...or I have no safe tiles on my hand. It's sooo frustrating. In one game, I got raped in 5 rounds(4 when you don't count the draw). I played the winning tile in each one of them but what can you do when they always riichi during the first five rounds? Or I have dora 6(one being kan, other one being one eye), all triples, waiting for one more tile(4 outs) and a random person tsumos. Was my big change to hop from two to one and win the game but no, of couse it didn't happen. Luck based games always make me sad =(
/edit: Lol, so close again. Dora 4 and pure suit, in tenpai, 3 outs. And then someone tsumos. I, being the dealer, lose more points and drop from second to third position. Was the last game -.-
The one on the right won. And looking at the replay, I had 2 effective outs. Too bad they were still in the wall, would have won for sure but no one drew them.
On April 12 2011 15:14 BrTarolg wrote: <<< chinese mahjong player
feels epic to win in a game which i dont understand the scoring lol
I know how you feel. I had to learn the scoring for Japanese Mahjong from scratch.
Had to learn from scratch as well...not that I understand the fu system and I don't know how many han points the yakus give. But you don't really need to know that to play somewhat decent.
And I'm still sad that there aren't any other options. Like...start with 500k and play 16 rounds min. 8 rounds are pretty short and 250k is no real buffer. Two good hands and you are dead.
http://mahjong.wikidot.com/rules:riichi-competition-rules-scoring I used this. There are better ones out there but don't know any others that do not have information scattered all over the place. Of course, best way to learn is through experience but you can't really do that for the very basics.. (Ex. 1+1)
I see that you are 3 kyuu already from the screen shot. Maybe it would be good time for me to mention that dan room will only be available to free users if he/she play in "economy" mode. It is the version with I guess crappier graphics but functionality is the same.
You can change your graphic option to 'economy' by selecting the first choice on that tab left on the OK button.
Yeah, I read that before. Kinda sucks, I guess, but nothing you can do about it.
I hate Mahjong D: In one day, I fell from close to 1600 Elo to barely above 1400 Elo. And sometimes I think that certain people cheat...or is it really possible to win 7 rounds in a row? Honestly, that's just sick and so far the highest(apart from that and a 6 win streak) was 3 wins.
I can't win a session right now to save my life. I used to be 3 dan when i played a lot a couple of years ago. Now I'm 7 Kyu on a new account and I can't do shit. I dunno what I'm doing wrong.
Hm, it shouldn't be too hard to get some higher ranks. I'm 1 Kyuu despite being in pretty bad streak from time to time. Do you lose because you never win a hand or do you lose because you are playing into another person's hand?
I was 1 dan, went on a few game losing streak, then haven't played much lately. Every time I stop playing for a while I forget everything I had learned from my last games. Its a vicious cycle.
Same thing as the rest- you now reached the 1 dan rank. Now you can play in the dan rooms. Also congrats! Can't believe the pace you are blitzing through the ranks (though I myself can't remember how long it took for me to reach current rank).
Hm, no number "1" though. Thought it would be something like that. Tried playing in economy mode right after I made it but I messed up and misread a character which led me into furiten which made me lose the game and the whole round aferwards. But after that I managed to recover and made it to 1600+ Elo, yay ^_^ Thanks, but so far it was pretty easy. You only need to win a game and avoid the 4th place and then you rise in the ranks pretty fast.
What are the best times to play? Tryng to join a game right but either there is no one else other than me playing or i'm doing somehing wrong when i try to jion a game.
On April 16 2011 03:31 Cirrus wrote: What are the best times to play? Tryng to join a game right but either there is no one else other than me playing or i'm doing somehing wrong when i try to jion a game.
Honestly it is pretty difficult to play a game in "English" server unless you prearrange some sort of meeting time with three other people. Last meet-up with Caller was pretty lucky in that multiple people happened to be checking this thread at the same time.
Looks like I'm not the only one being busy recently >.> Bumping this for sake of Caller since I figured out the time I am going to be available. If Physics final doesn't turn out to be unmitigated disaster - knock on wood because I freaking hate mathematics -Edit: owned that shit I'm going to be free since May 1st.
Btw is Mahjong stream idea from far far past happen to be abandoned now?
Curse you- how could you ever complain about getting fourth consecutive losses when I got like 13th consecutive 4th streak? >.> (though it was more due to my mindset instead of luck) Congratulations on your yakuman!
Also, change in my schedule due to familial matters. I'll be surprised if I can get even a hour of mahjong session in until June 1st, fml.
Like Starcraft, Mahjong seems to be something you need to frequently play to be good at, otherwise you'll forget everything and play pathetically I didn't even know I wasn't playing in dan room until the first game was over.
Don't be deceived by results; if not for completely undeserved luck last hand, I would have gotten 4th on the first game. Totally full of weedy mistakes. I think the decrease in my playing quality was mostly due to loss of my self-control. You can see in both games that I chose to fold much lesser than I used to- there are several instances where it would have been wise for me to not force my hand. And then there are stupid discards too, but I always made those even before my hiatus
I've tried to learn this yesterday. Got the 4 sets + pair somewhat down, but scoring and hands completely elude me yet. Any recomendations where I could learn this? So far I'm playing against computer on some online site so that I can recognize stuff a bit faster.
For once in a while, I'll have a lot of free time to play around tomorrow. So maybe if any of you guys are free perhaps could arrange a meeting on that IRC channel.
Just read the entire Akagi manga up to Book 24, courtesy of someone who was generous enough to translate it in Korean. My impression: LOL (in a good way). Trying to emulate Washizu while playing mahjong for yourself is like trying to learn mahjong from watching Saki- utter exercise in futility.
On May 12 2011 07:15 Tenhou wrote: :o I never know some member of TeamLiquid plays on Tenhou
I got a lot of free time after 07:00 KST so if you guys wants to play with me too then give me a PM :D
Oh lol I am like 10 days late. If your message still holds, I am going to have plenty of time around June 2 or so, hence I'll shoot you a message around then. We are going to have to find like two more people though.
Started playing again and doing pretty well. Just hit the 1700 rating and I hope I will continue to go up. Need access to the 1800 room :>
/edit: And right after I wrote that, I got last place, FML -.- First two rounds really killed me there and afterwards I neither won, nor lost anything.
Path to 3 dan is atrocious and grueling indeed; spent a week getting my account into 500 pt using whatever free time I can get, then immediately get pulverized down to where I began after placing 4th -_-.
Maybe I play too cautious, but I never seemed to get 1st place ever (unless I am extremely lucky). Current Status: 二段 415 / 800pt R1571
My account is messed up now anyway. After I got 3rd/4th, I went up to around ~1750 and afterwards I just lost, lost and lost some more. It was horrible and probably my first time ever that I raged. Whatever I did, it didn't work. Riichi worked like 1 out of 10 times because they either dodged it or someone declared riichi afterwards and won immediately. No matter what I went for, winning tiles being random, terminal or honor, even when I concealed it, so that they can't read it from my pool, it was useless. I dropped below 1700 and told myself: "Well, now let's go back up" but I ended up dropping even further and I always wanted to win again but the exact opposite happened. Was at 500+ points, 1750 elo, first place at close to .333 and now I'm ~100 points, barely above 1500 elo and .250 while 4th is over .300 now. I don't know how many games went wrong but it was a lot, easily 50+ and they all fucked me over. I got first...maybe three, four times -.- I so hate games with luck involved, honestly -__- Didn't play for a week or so and don't really intend to pick it up again. It was just too frustrating. But at least I'm still 2nd dan, thank god they didn't take that away.
Oh God, speak no more. You are reminding me of that 13-straight loss streak that originally brought me raging in this thread -_- Makes one understand how people can believe in flow and shit. Your situation sounds definitely more painful though...
Comment: Kind of feel guilty for uploading this because luck was surprisingly kind to me tonight, allowing me to recover from my two consecutive 4th place loss.
Haha, can't believe he discarded all those dot tiles. Normally you would think he would stop after the second tile or so, but no, he didn't. And I don't think he really tried to accomplish anything, except for winning that round.
Comment: Not too bad for someone who did not play for about... two to three weeks? Really wanted to reach 600pts but decided to stop for today because it was clear during the final game that my concentration was starting to falter.
Comment: To be honest I lost lot of patience here and pushed my hands a bit, but overall impression was that luck of the draw really determined the outcome of games here (at least on the games I won).
The thing is when I am at 4th, I rather take matters into my own hands - push every hands aggressively so I can somehow edge myself into 3rd - rather than simply wait for some unlucky player to walk into yakuman.
On July 14 2011 03:53 Caller wrote: we should play more often
Oftentimes I feel like this thread became some sort of my personal blog for every tenhou session I did, with how little activity that goes around here.
Is it me or am I getting more terrible at this game =/
Also does anyone want to arrange a meet-up again? We should try to set specific date/time because frankly the first TL Tenhou Meeting was product of freak coincidence (and Caller magic).
I thought it required some sort of installation? Like >95% of my entire online activity are from the university library computer- I can't even type asian language down here without help of some virtual keyboard thing.
On July 20 2011 05:49 Hesmyrr wrote: Also does anyone want to arrange a meet-up again? We should try to set specific date/time because frankly the first TL Tenhou Meeting was product of freak coincidence (and Caller magic).
Weren't there two meetings? I remember winning two times against you guys
/edit: Ah, nvm. Looks like the 4-player games were on the same day. Thought that we played once with 3 players and then with 4 on another day.
I just started playing on Tenhou today. Finally was winning a table when the guy across from me feeds a 9000 ron to 2nd place on the last hand, and I get overtaken. T_T
Btw is ID registration down or something? I get a popup message something about 7 days? Confused
On November 23 2011 14:04 Love.Zelduck wrote: I just started playing on Tenhou today. Finally was winning a table when the guy across from me feeds a 9000 ron to 2nd place on the last hand, and I get overtaken. T_T
Btw is ID registration down or something? I get a popup message something about 7 days? Confused
i just registered a new name yesterday so i don't think so...
Too bad I can't play in higher ranked room since my rank is R1673 I have not been playing mahjong much since I've been playing Go also recently, but I'm glad to see I still have got enough skill/luck where it counts!
On February 21 2012 07:17 Caller wrote: dddddd daisangen
omfg now you spoiled it
second hand was kinda funny though you draw up every character tile you could wish for and throw them all away :D
edit: oh man that was unfortunate. But see it this way these big hands are once in a lifetime occurences. Like I got a haitei or a rinshan kaihou like once in super lucky games but never again.
Yay, people! Thanks for the encouragement, I already got over the game and my 4th place streak because it was obviously my fault (literally forgot daisangen existed, otherwise I would have looked at the pool and just folded).
I actually haven't played mahjong for while because I am also having a go at... well, Go and this thread seems so empty =/ Probably was not good idea to jump into ranked games after such hiatus- I forgot that valuable thing called restraint and got consistently destroyed.
Just played one game today after a long while. Not the last round, but I certainly wasn't lucky. Would have got dora 6 but no, the player right to me draws his winning tile from the dead part. And he was waiting for a single tile, I had two outs at least :<
Anyone still available for play? After being roflstomped again, I think I need to play some care-free non-ranked games. Will be on #tlmahjong until I leave anyways. Gone
This game shows -- you can come right back in the end rounds. I have to admit; I played so pathetically in the early-to-mid stages, I might as well have rage-quitted. Especially after losing to a haneman while forcing a hand in tenpai waiting for a chun. Thankfully, I did not. Double Yakuman for the win.
On March 05 2012 16:57 Skilledblob wrote: isnt furiten always permanent? At least that's how I learned it.
Furiten is permanent on a tile you discarded. Of course, you can work your way out of furiten by changing your wait, unless you happen to call riichi. If you do not accept a "ron" from another player, then you are temporily furiten for one go-around.
Sup guys, never knew there was a tenhou thread in TL.
I've been playing jap mahjong for like a bit over a year I guess. Started on Janryumon before later switching to Tenhou. Currently 三段 780 / 1200pt R1811. Been playing in the 一般 lobby but never seem to be able to play in the 上級 lobby. Is premium required for 上級 and higher lobbies?
On March 12 2012 21:35 Rhaegar99 wrote: Sup guys, never knew there was a tenhou thread in TL.
I've been playing jap mahjong for like a bit over a year I guess. Started on Janryumon before later switching to Tenhou. Currently 三段 780 / 1200pt R1811. Been playing in the 一般 lobby but never seem to be able to play in the 上級 lobby. Is premium required for 上級 and higher lobbies?
If you aren't paying you have to play in economy mode to gain full access; that's the tab right beside the OK button, containing the four lettered japanese word or something. You'll know you did it like if the game background starts looking like, according to some people, Brood War-ish.
oh FML Thanks for the tip man. If it wanst for you Id still be grinding myself all the way up to 4dan with that crappy 30 points for win and 50 for a loss. Are the games much tougher in 上級? Also whats the benefits of premium if you we can have access to everything in the economy version?
Just hit 4dan yesterday. I usually play the east games and rarely touch hanchan so I thought I was gonna get raped going into the 上級 league, but guess not haha. Played 13 games and went 6-2-5-0. Now hoping not to get crushed in 特上.
If anyone wants to go through games or hands Ill be happy to share my thoughts.
Congratulations! Amazing how fast you are climbing up the ranks. For myself I'm struggling to maintain R1600 Can you give me any general advices or something?
Edit: Also, which game mode (out of nashi/ari/ari-red) do you primarily play in?
I play normal speed ari-red east games normally but now I really dont have a choice but to play hanchans in the higher leagues.
The most important advice I can give you is to not to feed into other peoples hands. You've probably heard this a million times already but if your struggling to get to the 1700-1800 rating area, this must still be a major problem for you. You should almost never consider continuing with your hand if someone riichis and your not at least in iishanten(1 tile from tenpai). Because of the extra points from riichi and possible uradoras, it is very easy to hit a mangan.
Another important point is to understand that the games we play are ladder games where your rating and and rank pts are calculated base off your final placements at the end of the game and not how many points you have. Because of this it is fairly important to be able to calculate non mangan hands. This including understanding how to count the number of fu points and memorise the number of points scored for at least the 25fu 30fu and 40fu hands (both tsumo and won off discard, and when in east position). This way you can know what minimum hand to aim for to snipe first place, or to get to third place if your coming last.
Just following these two should manage to get you up to R1700. The few games Ive played in 上級, Ive seen even R1800s feed into hands that they shouldnt. There are many other simple tips that I can give but it is difficult without an example. If you want more advice, send me a link to a game where you thought you still came 3rd or last.
lol damn that guys pretty lucky to get it twice in the game.
I think your play isnt too bad. From what I see you seem to be bailing and going for it when you should be. Im going to however talk about some of the small things that I notice in your play. Even though it might not have changed the outcome of the game, improvements in these areas can help improve your game
I've noticed twice in your game you threw out nonyaku paired honours very early on. Do this isn't nessecary bad play but it also isnt the best move you can do. Having a nonyaku paired honour in your hand has many benifits: - acts as a pair and can also be used in a pinfu hand - like any other pair if you pick up a 3rd tile it completes a set - and if you do pick up a 3rd tile, you get 8 additional fu for a hidden honor, giving your extra points when you do win - they become safe throws towards to middle-late game, and dosnt exactly break the hand Down sides are: - you use the tiles to make any runs - cannot get a tanyao
Looking at hand 1, having two 5s with no 4s or 6s does not guarentee you will be using them as a pair as either tile can come by anytime. You also only have 4 groups of completed/nearly completed hands: 2m3m4m, 5m6m7m, 5s5s, and the two honor tiles. Throwing the honor tiles in this case also pulls you further away from tenpai. The correct tiles to throw IMO is either the 1s or 9s, them being the most useless/most difficult to improve on tiles. I dont think I would chuck out the pair at any point with this hand. You'll be trying to form straights with the 5s and 8p and any other tile you pick up since you lack connectivity in the pin and sou suit.
Hand 2 is a bit more complicated since the hand is kinda crappy and difficult to win with. What I would throw out here first is the 9p then the red dragon. How you play this hand depends on the draw, but keeping the pair a few more turns give you the opportunity to play a chitoitsu hand if you happen to pick up another pair.
The next thing Im going to talk about is riichi and how you seem to be under using it. Ill put that in my next post
Thanks for the detailed response! I always tend to gravitate toward pinfu or tanyao, going for other hands very rarely and relying on random dora to give me han points, so that's probably why I show trend of discarding honour tiles early. I guess completing your hand quicker is more valuable than potential 1 dora from above yaku, but using the tiles that aren't prevalent wind forces me to riichi in the end... and I'm rather skittish about using riichi unless that one extra han point is enough to cause big difference (3 to 4 han, 5 to 6 han per say). I would be glad to hear about how to improve my riichi decisions!
Pros: - You get one extra yaku. Assuming a 30fu hand, thats 1000 from 1->2, 1900 from 2->3, 3800 from 3->4, 300 from 4->5, 4000 from 5->6. - Chance of getting uradora when you win - Gives hands with no yaku a chance to win
Cons: - You throw 1000 points into the pot - Cannot change your hand - Opponents know your in tenpai
Riichi is so good its hard not to riichi when your in tenpai. Because your hand is close, unless they have a read on you, they have no idea how many point hand you have, nor what you are waiting for. It does not matter if you have a one tile wait. They do not know this In most situations the pros outweigh the cons. So instead of telling you when to riichi, ill give you a list of situations when you should consider not to riichi
Places where you might not want to riichi: - When you know someones got a big hand and is probably in tenpai (ex. someones going for a sou flush and has already thrown out a sou tile) - When someone has made a pon with 3 doras. Usually in this situation the guy with the dora wont bail. - When you have 4 points or higher and dont need to riichi to win (ex. pinfu hands with a combo of doras/tanyao) - When you want to make a better hand - When your wait tile is a dora tile - When most of your wait tiles have already been discarded - When someone else already riichi
These arnt the other things you need to consider. Opponents current points and position is also very important.
This hand you put yourself in a difficult situation with the single dora white dragon. I like how you kept it on you and I too think its the right thing to do. One to prevent this is instead of waiting for the pair to finish off the hand, have a two sided wait instead so that you have the option of throwing the white dragon, not riichi, and be in tenpai with a decent wait. Of course the problem here is that is it safe to throw the white dragon. In this case probably not a good idea XD
You can be sure east does not have 2 white dragons. His consecutive 1s throws gives this away. If he had a yakuhai, he would almost never do this. In fact, chances are hes going for a tanyao hand. judging from his discards and his pon. Hes simply aiming for a quick win to defending his east position. Its also highly unlikely North is in tenpai and also waiting on the white dragons. The lack of melds usually indicates this. You only really have to worry about west in this situation. Since hes already has a yaku, theres also the chance he can win with only one white dragon in his hand.
When it comes to dora honors, if you have any doubt, dont throw it.
This is one of the most basic situations where I would snap riichi. Your discards give them almost zero read. Your hand is a 2 point pinfu tanyao. You tenpaied quick which means its highly likely the other players arnt even close to tenpai. Even if someone feeds into this hand, its only 2900. Its almost too little to care about lol. Riichi here, and put pressure on your opponents and watch them break their hands. A riichi east is fucking scary.
Riiching here isnt too good and isnt too bad, and I understand your choice not to. I would riichi here since its fairly early and noones made a meld yet. You are also coming last so you need points =]
In this spot I would probably riichi, but its also ok not to. The 2m and 5m have been thrown so if north and west are bailing, those two will come out if they pick it up. One thing to note is north isnt bailing so id smash the riichi button
bah its a bit messy but i hope you can follow what im trying to say lol dont be scared to hit the riichi button xD
Wikipedia: This is a very common yaku, since it is rather easy to get. A no-points hand is just that—a hand that is worth no additional fu-points whatsoever. Specifically, the hand must have no triplets or quads, and must not contain any pair of dragons, player’s own wind, or wind of the round which is worth points, meaning the pair can be other winds.
Oh wow, I never realized you could get pinfu with the honour pair. Just noticed this while playing the game. Also thanks for telling me to be gratuitous with the riichi! Though there were some... heart-stopping moments, it feels good to get 8000~12000 hands for once.
North was obviously a newbie, so my win wasn't really a big deal (I'm not very good myself).
edit: just looked it up: "In some variations the player who discarded the dragon tile that completes the third pung/kong when two are already melded, pays the full value of the hand for all players, if that player wins on a self-drawn tile. In the case that another player discards the winning tile to this player, the payment is split amongst the two." http://mahjong.wikidot.com/big-three-dragons
And thats why you never ever throw the last set of dragon tiles when someone has already pon 2 dragons :D. and that remind me that I havnt hit a yakuman in sooooooo long
Where do you play ranked games on Tenhou? I thought the default lobby was ranked but I've played a few dozen games (I think positive points overall) and no change. A friend told me you normally only have to win like 1 game to go up to 9 kyu or whatever it is.
You're not playing as NoName, right? Every game you play with ID is ranked. If you look right below the first scrolly selecty thingy, you see there is 800/1600 pt. Left number is the pt you currently have while right pt is the point you need to get in order to advance.
Also fell down to 2 dan, I'm having massive mental slump at the moment *sigh*
Five times 4th in seven games, f*** this game. Honestly, it's total bs how some players self-draw their single-waits or riichi after 3-4 turns while I have 1 1/2 rows full of 1s, 9s and honors >_<
lmao riichi only with 10 doras. I don't kan precisely because of the possibility of getting dora bombed and also I don't want to get Chan Kan'ed and look like an idiot.
Hey guys! Finally a seemingly active forum I found..
I'm a newbie at riichi, but advancing pretty well. I play a lot against pc and I am slowly learning to read discards and etc. So I thought let's go try tenhou, I'll probably lose, but meh, that's how one learns. So I played a tonpuusen, and ran crying back to my AI opponents... The problem is, it's way too fast for me. I can't decide in so little time, and I end up discarding tiles that even I know stupid. Is there some way to play against other people with more time to think, or should I just push it till I get used to it? Or better to play against pc until I get better?
I think it's best if you keep playing vs people. If you know the main yakus already, start getting use to the time limit (unless you can find somewhere to play with more time) because you will eventually have to in the end. Playing vs bots maybe okay but when you know you have unlimited time to think, theres really no pressure for you to think quick.
Probably the first thing you should focus on now as a beginner to online MJ is to not worry too much about other players discards but focus on your own tiles and try to constantly making a winable hand. Only once you have that mastered should you move onto looking at player's discards and applying basic reading to it.
I agree with Rhaegar99, and try to create the best possible hand you can with the tiles you are given and focus not so much on other players discards.
However, if you are really struggling with the time limit, perhaps you are not too sure of all the possible yaku or what sets your starting tiles might become. Try to quickly decide which tiles are useful and others not so useful and visualize what your hand might materialize to be as you keep getting new tiles. But don't lock your view on the hand and always keep a possible yaku in mind. And I do suggest you continue to play on tenhou, and get used to the time limit :>
Another tip that helped is collecting tiles from usually 2 suits instead of 1 or all 3 is easier in making a complete hand. However, this obviously varies with your starting hand and the tiles you draw.
am I the only one who keeps Dragon tiles as long as it makes sense? I had so many games where I just threw the single dragons away at the start of the game and then still got 2 other dragon tiles for a Pon. So now I just keep them until two were discarded
On April 11 2012 22:21 Skilledblob wrote: am I the only one who keeps Dragon tiles as long as it makes sense? I had so many games where I just threw the single dragons away at the start of the game and then still got 2 other dragon tiles for a Pon. So now I just keep them until two were discarded
Depends I usually discards the Dragons because well, they are only worth 1 han, and you pretty much have to open up your hand with a pon
If I'm looking for a quick win because I'm dealer or perhaps I have a nice hand with dora or honitsu, then I might keep the dragons, but usually I discard them after non round/seat wind, and if someone discards one, then I almost always discard one.
You are right I might have become too comfortable playing offline... It's true I'm usually not sure which way should I start building my hand, and many times I find myself jumping between goals which leads to complete mess at the end. I guess it takes practice. I'll take your advice and continue playing on tenhou ^^
Well, I just discard them at the beginning because, eventually, later they can prove to be too risky to throw away.
@kdava: When I started playing Mahjong, I always went with the 5-second games(actually, I still do). Got used to it pretty fast and I'm sure you will adjust as well.
On April 11 2012 22:21 Skilledblob wrote: am I the only one who keeps Dragon tiles as long as it makes sense? I had so many games where I just threw the single dragons away at the start of the game and then still got 2 other dragon tiles for a Pon. So now I just keep them until two were discarded
Holding onto dragons until you see two get discarded is a major leak in your game IMO. When one tile comes out, the chances of you drawing one, and then Pon another is very low. Even if you do pick up your second tile, you have to consider the fact that the last tile can be anywhere in the wall including the dead wall, which can in some cases cause your hand to be drawing dead.
I usually hold on to my dragons as long as I can if noone has chucked one of the same tile but it is very dependent on my hand.
Ya usually it really doesn't matter too much but since west already threw the red dragon, riichi would decrease the chance for the other two players to discard the tile.
I keep playing on tenhou as you advised. What I don't get is the ranking system. First my points dropped to around 1320, then I started getting to 1st and 2nd place more, and now I have 8 kyu with 1389 points. If I get it right, you get one rank every 30 points? But this means one can get to like 5 dan with points under 1500 if they first drop down low enough (like 1000)? I don't see how points and ranks are connected, pls help me out I looked into that ranking system table, but don't really understand it.
You can find the point system here. http://tenhou.net/man/ Look for the 8th white box section thing title 段級位制. The label for each column goes like: kyu/dan rank, starting points when you enter the rank, number of points you gain/lose for east only rounds, number of points you gain/lose for hanchan rounds, number of points required to rank up, number of people in the rank, and average Rate of the rank. You only lose points for coming last, but you wont be losing any until you reach 2kyu, and you wont be able to derank until you reach 1dan.
Unlike points, Rate is calculated based of your end position (1st,2nd,3rd,4th) and your opponents Rate. So Rate is a better indication of skill whereas rank... im not too sure but probably more about what your capable of? (it dosnt really matter in the kyu ranks though) In the later stages, there are Rate requirements to access certain leagues
New month and stat reset! The month was very swingy for me. Fell to under R1800 a few times and almost got deranked a few times. Luckily I managed to claw myself back up to end the month on:
四段 845 / 1600pt R1843
I got into an interesting spot sometime ago and would like to share and maybe generate some discussion
Note that this hand is the first round first game of a hanchan and the dora is east wind. I'd like to know what tile you would discard, why you discard that tile, and what you are trying to achieve with this hand (what you expect the end hand to look like / yakus).
Going with my gut here (haven't played for awhile after I had disastrous setback and fail down to 2 dan), I'd just discard 5 sou pair and hope I can utilize the dora. Who needs yaku? So final product would either be wait on green dragon-east or 6 man (with possibility of improving it to two-way wait). Obviously it being higher dan lobby I suspect nobody will deal in the winning tile but I'd take the risk with it being early game and you not being the dealer.
well based on the few discards that were made so far it does look like most people are stacking bamboos. Though this is a stretch because there are only few discards. I'd agree with Hesmyr and discard the 5 bamboo and then you'd have to wait for the 6 and a green dragon. That someone would discard an east wind when it's the dora is unlikely.
and that other hand .... 3 dora and SEVEN ura dora lol. Way to turn shit into gold haha
Hey guys, I just hit 5dan after riding a massive heater. Lost like only one game in my last 20 or so games
You guys pretty much touched on everything with the previous hand. 5s is the right tile to discard. Since east is a dora and one of the two remaining 5s are is also a dora, it is very unlikely that your opponents will discard those tiles. Because of this our only yaku will come from the green dragon. We will pon the green dragon and chi a 6m, and throwing out any tile that are not those tiles or the 4m.
This is a fairly simple hand to break down since we are already iishanten and we did not need to incorporate our opponents discards. You should however being doing something like this during every point of your hand. Plan ahead and balance your hand between your chance of winning and the fu/han of your hand. Decide whether you want to tanyao and open your hand well before your given that opportunity.
Playing efficiently and smart while not feeding is the way to go 1-3dan players
I'd discard a 5 sou but I wouldn't be so gungho of cutting both pairs. If everybody else seems to be having trouble witht heir hand you can get greedy and go for a 5-6-7 sanshoku with hatsu or east wind set. An open hand there would give you mangan at the very least, with a very good chance for haneman. A closed hand is an easy baiman.
Yes, they do. I remember creating an account for the first time but forgot to save the password. So afterwards, I had to create another one. Anyway, some weeks ago, I tried again and it said the username is still available, so it sure got deleted.
Well if he had a 2 instead of a 9, I think thats an one tile wait. But your right, that rarely happens and most of the time you probably dont even know what your waiting on
Is it 5, 6, 9 sou wait? Even an inkling of hand like that makes my head spin- which is why I usually end up in furiten upon choosing the build complex hand like that T_T
On July 15 2012 01:32 Hesmyrr wrote: Is it 5, 6, 9 sou wait? Even an inkling of hand like that makes my head spin- which is why I usually end up in furiten upon choosing the build complex hand like that T_T
Yes, it is. I barely end up in furiten unless I get all the wrong tiles which require then something I discarded early on.
Meh. By the way anyone feel free to drop in #TLMahjong if you guys have time to play. Haven't had chance to play against TLers for awhile. No longer available
So I'm participating in this team tournament with 4 other people The format is like each team starts with 100k and each person plays 2 hanchan (Saki style if you ever watched the anime) Any tips on improving?
The tournament is July 25th so I have about a week and a half
On July 15 2012 11:17 JSH wrote: So I'm participating in this team tournament with 4 other people The format is like each team starts with 100k and each person plays 2 hanchan (Saki style if you ever watched the anime) Any tips on improving?
The tournament is July 25th so I have about a week and a half
so seriously just general tips for improving your mahjong play?
alright.....
don't deal in. folding is always an option. safe tiles are usually an option. safer tiles are the next best option. study up on tile efficency. don't deal in. play more agressivly as dealer. play more defesively aginst a dealer who richiis or looks to be in tenpai. never go for chanta. a default hand shape you should look for is tanyao, pinfu, richii. (metapin to use the japanese term) don't deal in. as this is a tourny with a large point poll, not a cash game, you should ask your self how many points you need to improve your position with each hand, E.G. if you have just richii but need at least say...5000 to move up a spot then don't richii just to get your hand done, try to evolve it to more yaku i.e., a three color straight, simples, half or full flush, doras etc. speaking of doras always check what the dora is. review all the yakus over and over again. score random hands yourself, check yourself aginst the computer to see if you missed anything. don't deal in. always check to see how far away from tenpai you are, check to see how many of your outs are still live, plan your discards around maximizing the number of live tiles that more you closer to tenpai. real mahjong is nothing like saki, do not go for 13 orphans unless you have a crazy starting hand. don't deal in. always ask if richii is worth it, know how much it expects to increase your payout with how many yaku you have already in hand use this to judge the risk. when trying to read the "Wait" of someone remeber the 1-4-7rule. EDIT: don't post mahjong advice while drunk kids, you forget things. play alot. and don't deal in.
On July 15 2012 01:32 Hesmyrr wrote: Is it 5, 6, 9 sou wait? Even an inkling of hand like that makes my head spin- which is why I usually end up in furiten upon choosing the build complex hand like that T_T
You only really get furiten if you discard your plan halfway through the game. So if for some reason you deviate from your original plan, watch out.
On July 15 2012 13:23 Shymon wrote: when trying to read the "Wait" of someone remeber the 1-3-5 rule. e.g., some one discards a 3 pin then the 5 pin and 1 pin are "likely" safe tiles as a 12 or 45 wait would use the 3.
Whoa, 5 safe when he discarded a 3??? Nowai. 67 ryanmen wait. The enemy could be hoping to draw an aka dora, too. 5 is pretty damn dangerous, almost all the time. 1 isn't that safe either, 233 is a good shape, enemy discards 3 to get a ryanmen wait on 1 and 4. And since terminals are less useful than 2-8 most of the time, people are likely to discard those. So 1 4 is a pretty good wait if you're not aiming for tan'yao.
If someone discards a 4, however, 1 is relatively safe. He can't wait on 1 4 with 23 in hand now because he'd be furiten. 4 is obviously safe. 7 is kinda safe, because again the wait can't be 4 7 with 56 in hand. The penchan wait on 7 with 89 in hand isn't that great because there are only 4 tiles available at best, so it's not played as often, but still possible of course.
I agree with spine. I've never heard of the 1-3-5 rule and honestly I think its a terrible rule. If your trying to read your opponent just off a single tile without regarding when the tile was discarded then this is a giant hole in your game. The only read that you can really get off a single discard is the 1-4-7 or w/e rule where if you throw a 4, then 1 and 7 are usually safer throws.
If you really want to improve, post a link to one of your games and let people go through the game. Reading and following tips will only get you so far.
errr yeah, i sorta posted all of those "tips" while very drunk. so yeah the 1-4-7 is what i MEANT to post but in my haze actually made up a new bad rule for defense ;p
Alright I did up a quick analysis which took a bit longer than I thought. I noted down each of your discard and added notes to where I believe it was not the best discard. One problem that I came up often in your games is how early you discard prevailing wind and seat honor tile + dragon tiles. You need to hold onto these since drawing a second tile and help you earn a quick wind, and it also prevents your opponents to quickly obtain cheap wins. Your still making some mistakes here and there in terms of tile efficiency which is very important if you want to get better. Try to focus on improving this.
北 西 南 發 - dragon tile is thrown way too early, best tile to throw at this time is 8p 1p - as played 1p is fine here 2s 8s 白- should hold on to this tile since no white dragons have been thrown yet. would throw 4s instead 3p - not too sure about this move but it seems like you were worried about north having a half flush. You can be 90% sure that he is not aiming for a half flush base off his first three discards (being honor tiles). Thus the best discard would be the 8m since therse really no tells to indicate that 8m nor 3p are were dangerous. 8m would make your hand closerto tenpai. 5p
pon 南 北 1m 3m 4p 6m 西 2m 5p 8p North Riichi 7m 9s - here i prefer discarding 8s instead. 8s safe against both North and West (could be on a potential half flush). You also have around the same number of waits and most importantly, your waiting on the 9p which is a safe discard for other players against North. 8p
1p 發 1s 9s - discarding 7p is the better choice here. 7p is a lone time in this hand. Your 899p has a higher possibility of forming a meld than having the 7p in your hand. 9s - again discarding 7p is better here 白 7p 南 8s West Riichi 9m Chi 345p 2p - your choice to push here is perfectly fine. 7p 7s 5m 中 8p
pon 發 9m 南 - hold onto this. Since you get 2 yakus for a set, it holds a much higher value. Throw 7s instead. 8p 9s - this discard seems a bit pointless. With this discard the 7s needs to be thrown due to the likely hood of being furiten. You lose two move without making any progress on your hand. 6m is a far superious discard. It gets you closer to tenpai and also a rare chance at a chanta 7s East Riichi 1p - your hand contants no guarenteed safe tiles so if you a bailing, this is a very easy 2p or 3p discard. The reasoning is because of East prioritize discarding 4p (valuable tile) before the 9m (not so valuable tile). This shows that the tiles around 4p have either formed a meld already or is a lone 4p. With the same read, I can also assume that 8 and 9p are safe. This is a very simple and reliable read that is based on how a normal person would play an efficient game. Take note that this type of read becomes less reliable if the riichi comes late. 白 2m chi 234s - this is probably not the best time to push. Your up against an East riichi and you can tell that West is bailing and north is somewhat bailing. Your hand is only worth 1 point if you win. Sure you may be able to deny a win off East but the risk is not worth the reward. Discard 6m instead. Relatively safe discard due to th 1-4-7 rule 東 1p - some indecision here. If your going to push, then push. By bailing after 2 melds, you put yourself in a situation where your probably furiten or not in tenpai while having not many tiles to play around with 2p 白
西 東 5m - If you wernt thinking of going for a flush, this is probably one of the few times you want to hold on to some lone tiles. You have pair 1s and a 3s set that are almost guarenteed to stay that way for the rest of the game. If you picked up a 7s it would work well with this hand since you would have 2 set of pairs. Discarding 8s would be best here since you really only want to make one meld out of your 5568p combo. You hold on to the 5m becuase 23p and 56p share the same wait which is never a good case. The 5m would help improve the wait if you pick up a 4m or 6m. 9m 1s - This discard is pretty bad TBH. you were in the same situation as before the discard (2 set of pairs) but now you no longer have an out to triple up your 3s. 8s 5s 南 You Riichi 2m - This is a very good example of a bad riichi. It might not look bad at first since you have many outs but if you look around, its a really really bad move. First of all, both North and West have 2 open melds and should be commited in this round. North is forming a cheap hand so we can assume hes either in tenpai or relatively close to tenpai. West is forming an obvious flush or half flush. Since your hand is only worth 1 yaku, riichi does not give that much of a bonus. In other words, your risking 1000 points and a chance to deal into a flush, for roughly 1500 points (if we include uradora) and the chance to deal into a flush. Definitely not worth it
北 西 中 - again a bit to early with these dragon tiles. Discard 9m instead 東 南 - same as above, its 2 yakus for you. Hold onto these a bit longer 白 2m 9m
東 1m 南 - 2s first 7p 9p 3p 8s 8m - not so good of a discard. If you were planning a toitoi then you'll have a hand time since two 7m and a 西 are already discarded. Should have discarded the 9m and continue for a chitoitsu or a iipeko yaku 3m 白 9s West Riichi 5m 5s 9m 6s 6s 南
西 East Riichi 1s - this might not have affected the game but it may in some others but I believe its important. When someone riichis and your 100% bailing, always throw the safe tiles provided by who ever riichi's pool instead of the others. This so you can stock up on safe tiles incase someone else also riichis. In this case, throw the 5s first and hold onto the 1s until you have no other choice. 1s
I have one question though. For the South 1 South East: You mentioned that it is better to discard 2p 3p because of 4p discard? Except East didn't discard 4p He discarded (in order) chun 7p 4s south 9m (riichi)
I'm guessing you mean 4s, so I should've discarded 2s and 3s
Ok, I'll try holding onto dragons and Seat winds longer than lone tiles
if I see a yaku that I'm i a good position for and the dragon/seat wind spoils it (ex. 11 of my tiles that I plan to keep are tanyao) then I will discard the dragon early to prevent people from building up pairs for a yakuhai win. Alternatively, if I see somebody doing a lot of pong/chi, it's safe to say that they've already got a yakuhai set, especially if they are very agressive with their pong and chi.
I dunno the reason I usually just discarded the dragon/wind tiles because it usually requires my hand to be open and usually isn't worth much, unless I get bunch of dora
TImes when I go for yakuhai- a) when I have a lot of dora and no easy way out b) when I have a mix of 2-9 and terminals/honor tiles c) DAI SAN GEN d) when I see somebody about to win or with a very dangerous looking hand (ex. a guy that has a set of dora)
Er yeah you don't need it to be open, but a lot of times it is
I do agree with all the points you made too And depends on how behind/ahead I am too probably I need bigger hands if I'm behind But you can get some pretty big hands off honitsu + yakuhai too
Only getting rating for first place and no penalty for last place also is weird, no point in doing anything but shoot for first place no matter what. And then there always are these people way below first place who go for these pointless <2000 points hands just to crush my chances at a comeback with a big hand. Well, at least I'm placing first more than 40% of the time.
By the way: Does anyone know if there's a way to acquire actual files of Tenhou replays, not just links?
On August 17 2012 23:46 Rhaegar99 wrote: I too want to know this. All i know is that they are stored somewhere on your comp but Im not sure where either.
From the Tenhou documentation, it sounds more like only the links are stored on your PC. You can access them from the client, but the client would just load the list from your PC then. Since you can watch other people's games, the replays must be stored online. They could be stored on your PC too (duplicated), but it doesn't sound like that's the case...
Don't really want to nitpick at your play but I think this is very important. Your kan is very unnecessary and I would even consider it bad play in this current situation. We are currently in the west round so whenever one person reaches 30k the game ends. You are on 29k and your hand without the kan is already plenty for you to win the game if you do win this hand.
You also must consider the point difference between you and your opponents: 8k before riichi for west, and 9.4k for south, and also the 600 + 1000 extra bonus points. If you are to deal into mangan to any of your opponents, you would still be 3rd place OR in 4th place but the game will continue onto the next seat, giving you an extra chance for a come back. So in this case when you do kan, you are actually giving your opponents a greater chance to win (with a haneman), and a greater chance for you to lose.
Constantly being aware of little things like these will make you a better player. Remember that in tenhou where only your final position matters, its not about how hard you win but how you win. Also feel free to double post if you want to add something new. This way people will know when theres some new content
I'm not gonna double post just to show off some random hand.
Anyways, I appreciate the comments. I've pretty much just started playing, and I'm already through all the English strategy resources I can find via google. If I don't have to figure everything out by myself that'll be quite helpful.
I didn't really call the Kan to increase my points, the idea was to provide me with that extra tile. I suppose that one tile is indeed not worth the risk though.
By the way, I've been wondering what happens (on Tenhou) if someone declares Riichi and 2 people win at once a bit later (the Riichi goes through). Do they split the 1000 points from Riichi? Or does the stick remain on the table? Surely the player who called Riichi wouldn't have to pay another 1000...
I'm pretty mad at this guy... Not only did he have safe tiles against south and going betaori should be obvious, he also drew one of my winning tiles that very same turn... + Show Spoiler +
Ah im not too sure how to word this properly. IIRC the person who is first in line of the winds at the beginning of the game gets the 1000 points. Priority goes East -> South -> West -> North. For example, if we are in east wind seat 3, and south and west wins off east, then west takes the 1000 points because back in east wind seat 1, he was east, whereas south was north. This is the same method they use to calculate the final position if there are tied points at the end of the game.
Question first: When some opponent discards a tile, I can see it coming from somewhere in his hand. I am assuming that it comes from the right position in case of a Tsumokiri, and from a random other position in all other cases. So you can tell whether the tile was thrown from the hand or if it was discarded immediately. Is that correct? After all there's quite the difference between a 9 discarded in round 7 being a Tsumokiri and the same tile thrown from inside the hand...
Next, about replay files: I'm cosidering writing a small program that automatically goes through a list of replay links and collects the replay data into a file. Does anyone know how I would go about this? My programming skills in general should easily be sufficient, but I've never done stuff like that so I don't know how to start. Does anyone have information about Tenhou bots (the ones that play as if they were humans)?
So apparently you get sent replay files and not just single actions when you watch a replay. For example: http://ff.mjv.jp/0/log/?2012090918gm-0089-0000-484a55b6 This should be one of my replays. It has a seed for tile shuffling and then some stuff that seems to be player actions. I have yet to analyze the file in detail; whether it is just 1 hand or a full hanchan and so on. E: Actually it's quite certainly the full hanchan in one file. And then I have to figure out how to access these files effectively. I found it through packet capture using wireshark, but obviously I would want to automate the process based on the list of replay links I can access from the tenhou client (which is supposed to be stored on my computer anyways).
Call for help. The above replay file belongs to this replay: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012090918gm-0089-0000-x8a20abea0f04&tw=0 Most of the replay file is straightforward, but for now I'm stuck at the Pon/Chi/Kan descriptions. Maybe someone can figure it out (I'll keep looking into it of course).
Some info about the file format: The file is split into XML-like parts, it always looks like this:
<STUFF/>
The first element is the game version, the second (huge) element a seed for the tile shuffling, but that isn't needed unless you want to show the unused parts of the wall. Next is some introductory stuff, player names and rankings etc. The names are in the form %UNICODE, dan="10" means first dan, less means kyu ranks. + Show Spoiler [example] +
Next is a block of elements each describing an action a player makes. T## means player 0 draws tile ##, D## means player 0 discards tile ## U and E for player 1, V and F for player 2, W and G for player 3. + Show Spoiler [example] +
N stands for Naki (I think), which means "Call" I guess. The "who" attribute is the index of the player who called the last discard. Then comes a mysterious "m" attribute, which is (as far as I can tell) a 5 digit number. That number has to be responsible for multiple things: Specify the type of call (Chi, Pon, Closed Kan, Open Kan, Added Kan) and specify the tiles used for the call. For Chi it certainly needs some info, and when you add in Aka Dora, it also gets messy for Pon. + Show Spoiler [example] +
<N who="2" m="41482"/>
Riichi is split into two elements, one preceding the discard and one with the new score after the discard went through. + Show Spoiler [example] +
The AGARI element wraps up the game. Not sure what the "ba" attribute is for, and the "yaku" attribute might take some work too. + Show Spoiler [example] +
After that, another INIT element starts the next hand.
Man this is becoming one hell of a long post... Here is a table of some calls and the according "m" attributes. It already is clear that 2 melds will only have the same m (possibly m for meld) value if they use exactly the same tile IDs. Don't know yet if the discarded tile has any influence though, technically it shouldn't be necessary to store information about that tile in m. All Chi end in 111 binary so far, all Pon end in 0XY. Apart from that, I'm still clueless... As far as I can tell, the available bits aren't sufficient to store the IDs of 2 tiles even if packed tightly (ID1 + ID2*136), that is assuming that at least 3 bits are used for deciding the type of call. Of course you don't really need the actual IDs of these tiles, if you have the type of the call and the ID of the discarded tile, you can already narrow the number of possible combinations down by a lot. + Show Spoiler [calls] +
I especially have no idea why the format isn't just a comma seperated list of tile IDs that make up the meld...
So I got my hands on the tenhou flash application and decompiled it. In there are functions that handle both the generation of the replay link and the deciphering of the m attribute. It's not pretty, and I have no idea why it is so complex. It's also completely uncommented of course. But it's something to work with and I think I can translate it into useable code. Looking good.
I hacked up a small, crude and mostly untested program that takes a text file as an input and then downloads all the replay files (actually called "logs" on Tenhou) that are mentioned in that file.
Use at your own risk. Though I can't see how it would do any harm unless someone on Tenhou detects you downloading many replays at once and decides to ban you or something.
The program is in written in C#. It's the first C# program I wrote that other people might use, so who knows if everything works right away. You probably can break it in many ways, I haven't put a lot of effort into working around unexpected user input. Just tell me when something goes wrong or could be better.
For the input file, copy the replay link list from your Tenhou account, it looks like this: + Show Spoiler +
(for some reason TL seems to mess up the code tag if there is an url inside... so I replaced : with . after the http lol)
Then choose an output directory and hit "Grab logs". The program will name the files according to the link where they were downloaded from, and when trying to grab logs it will check if any of the logs you have in your input file already exist in your output folder. So keep the files there and don't rename them if you want to avoid downloading files unnecessarily.
Now about the replay file format: as I said before it's mostly obvious, but the Call part is weird. Here's the Action Script Tenhou probably uses to resolve that. I couldn't verify it yet, but I'm positive it's the right thing. + Show Spoiler [this is long!] +
Next is to write a program that parses these replays and extracts some statistics from them... Suggestions? :p
Also, lately I've been having this bug of sorts on Tenhou where I 100% click on a another tile, and it also highlights green properly before I click it, but it still discards the tile I just drew. Any ideas what could cause that? Causes a ton of problems.
I thought I understood when I could pick up a discarded tile and when I could not. When I am playing Janryumon - the only discarded tile that I can seem to pick up is the player to the left. There are other times that I can pick up the discarded tile from the player across from me and to the left only. I have re-read the instructions and searched hi and low.... Can someone please tell me what I am missing? I think it has to do with East, North, West and South positions... I feel that I might be able to win with more intelligence. Sincerely
On September 15 2012 10:09 Nann1654 wrote: I thought I understood when I could pick up a discarded tile and when I could not. When I am playing Janryumon - the only discarded tile that I can seem to pick up is the player to the left. There are other times that I can pick up the discarded tile from the player across from me and to the left only. I have re-read the instructions and searched hi and low.... Can someone please tell me what I am missing? I think it has to do with East, North, West and South positions... I feel that I might be able to win with more intelligence. Sincerely
you can call a chi from only the player on your left (a chi being a run in a suit 5-6-7 man for example). you can call a pon or a kan off any discard though (3 or 4 of a kind). You may also call ron off any discard provide you have the required winning conditions (at least 1 yaku, not in furiten, etc). hope that explains it for you :D.
Next hand ends with Kamicha dealing into Shimocha's hand for 5200 or so...
Anyways, what's up with all the insane hands my enemies seem to get lately? They throw around Hanemans like crazy, while I often couldn't even reach Tenpai more than once a Hanchan even if I knew my draws before the game... Well at least that's what it feels like. I'm still playing in the same room, lower Dan, but these last few days have simply been ridiculous.
Oh yeah, when I look at my list of recent replays in the client, I only get 40 replays. Is threre a list of links with all the replays or are older links always deleted? Where is the list on my PC anyways?
Sup guys. I took a long break from mahjong again lol. I hit 1900 points on 5dan and lost about 1000 points over 40 games or so. Not too sure if I played bad or hit a bad run but that crushed my soul.
On September 07 2012 17:21 spinesheath wrote: When some opponent discards a tile, I can see it coming from somewhere in his hand. I am assuming that it comes from the right position in case of a Tsumokiri, and from a random other position in all other cases. So you can tell whether the tile was thrown from the hand or if it was discarded immediately. Is that correct?
Thats correct, though I really don't suggest paying too much attention to this for now (even I have a lot of trouble with this). The only time that I do is when someone riichis and another player is also going for the win (when he discards a tile from his hand, then all the tiles thrown after the riichi stage is no longer 100% safe, though still very quite safe).
Also if your looking do pull some stats of games http://arcturus.su/tenhou/ranking/http://arcturus.su/tenhou/ranking/ maybe a bit useful. Its only got your placement and Rpoints you gain so theres really not much you can do with it.
The best method you can really do is probably to save all the replay urls after each game. This way you can still access it after the 40 replay limit.
On September 21 2012 22:42 Rhaegar99 wrote: Sup guys. I took a long break from mahjong again lol. I hit 1900 points on 5dan and lost about 1000 points over 40 games or so. Not too sure if I played bad or hit a bad run but that crushed my soul.
Same here, ever since I hit 3dan, I've felt completely out of control in almost every single game. I'm down 300-400 points already. When I'm done with debugging my replay parser I'm going to implement a Shanten and uke-ire calculation algorithm (anyone can help me out here? Doesn't seem all that trivial at first glance, though I probably could just bruteforce it...). And then I'm gonna see if my hands actually ARE that awful or if I'm just suddenly way worse than two weeks ago...
Me three. Was 3dan but begin to make disastrous streak that brought me down to 1 dan, and ragequit by erasing the document where I wrote down the ID. So if I feel like playing again I'll once again have to start from the scratch.
On September 13 2012 21:22 spinesheath wrote: Also, lately I've been having this bug of sorts on Tenhou where I 100% click on a another tile, and it also highlights green properly before I click it, but it still discards the tile I just drew. Any ideas what could cause that? Causes a ton of problems.
Just played a few games and I got this shit happening randomly. Fuck its so annoying. Makes me so mad.
On September 13 2012 21:22 spinesheath wrote: Also, lately I've been having this bug of sorts on Tenhou where I 100% click on a another tile, and it also highlights green properly before I click it, but it still discards the tile I just drew. Any ideas what could cause that? Causes a ton of problems.
Just played a few games and I got this shit happening randomly. Fuck its so annoying. Makes me so mad.
And it always happens at the worst times too. Well, you only notice it when you draw a good tile (or the Ippatsu tile of one of your enemies lol), which is the worst time... Discard a red 5 that connects to your other tiles? Hell yeah I always do that shit.
I think I also had it happen once when I tried to make a call. It's been happening a bit less frequently lately, but still not gone (at its peak I had it happen about once per hand). And I already made sure my Flash is up to date. I am entirely clueless what this is about.
In other news: Making decent progress with an offline replay viewer. Mostly for practicing WPF programming, but it also helps me with verifying that my replay parser is correct.
Does anyone here play 3s? I could use a couple of replays so that I can ensure compatability of the parser with 3s. If you do and want to provide me with some of your replays, just PM me your replay links copypasted from the Tenhou client. + Show Spoiler [what the links should look like] +
For anyone with issues with the glitch discards, I am mostly sure the problem is your browser if you're running FF15
I had the same issue on mine, but no problems using Chrome. My friend also had a similar issue and fixed it by switchong browsers as well. I will try tenhou on the ff16 beta later and see if that fixes anything
Does your rank/level decay over time on tenhou? i haven't played in a while and I misplaced my ID somewhere derp
I did it! Two days of work. Grinding through horrible documentation, trying all kinds of stuff, and luckily learning a bunch of stuff as well.
I managed to display a Chakan in my replay viewer: + Show Spoiler +
Notice the 1111m Chakan in the bottom right. Beautiful, isn't it? Btw tile images taken from http://www.martinpersson.org (and slightly modified), really nice ones.
So why am I making such a fuss about this? Because that's the XAML code I had to write for it: + Show Spoiler +
On September 25 2012 01:41 Wineandbread wrote: For anyone with issues with the glitch discards, I am mostly sure the problem is your browser if you're running FF15
I had the same issue on mine, but no problems using Chrome. My friend also had a similar issue and fixed it by switchong browsers as well. I will try tenhou on the ff16 beta later and see if that fixes anything
Does your rank/level decay over time on tenhou? i haven't played in a while and I misplaced my ID somewhere derp
It shouldn't decay I know like after 6 months of inactivity it resets the data so anyone can take the ID
Just got double dama ronned, after 5 discards ;_; so sad...
The date is actually required as it is read too. Also don't remove any linebreaks or add in extra ones, that's likely to cause issues.
Apart from that, it should be straightforward: Specify input file and output folder, and wait for the replays to be downloaded.
The Replay Analyzer doesn't do any analyzing yet, but it comes with a replay viewer. Load a bunch of replay files aquired with TenhouLogGrabber, select one from the list, and hit Watch Replay. The display is messed up before you resize the window, but if you just maximize it all should be fine.
A replay file is called a Match (Hanchan, Tonpuusen). A Match consists of multiple Games (8 + Renchan for Hanchan). Each Game is seperated into Frames. If a player draws a tile, it's a new frame, when he discards one it's a new frame and so on.
With this the controls should be self-explanatory. If you hit alt, you can see the hotkeys that you can use for the buttons: + Show Spoiler [hotkeys] +
G next game A prev game F next frame (also right and bottom arrow keys) R prev frame (also top and left arrow keys) S selected frame
The checkboxes allow you to display the fancy information, see the spoiler below for details.
Red tint means the tile was tsumokiri'd. Green in pond means that the tile has actually been called away from the pond. Red/Green in pond is obviously the combination of the above two. Green in the wall means that the tile normally wouldn't be visible.
Only the tiles that will become visible normally until the end of the game are shown as the rest is simply not known. The replay file specifies a seed for the randomizer used for building the wall, but I don't have the algorithm that goes with the seed.
EDIT: I cleaned up a good amount of bugs and fixed the slowdown issue. New version link is up: http://www.mediafire.com/?7a3zcdpq3qp1inx No big changes, but damn, fixing the memory leak there helped a lot (memory leak in a managed language that wasn't really my fault... nobody told me about having to freeze image sources before displaying them). Fixed a lot of things connected to riichi, rinshan draws and win/draw frames.
Uke-Ire is only displayed when you are not about to discard a tile. When you are about to discard, I want to calculate the uke-ire for each of the (reasonable) discards. I'll work on that next, and conceptually it's not hard, but it's going to be heavy on performance before I optimize the shanten calculation algorithm. The uke-ire number is the total of single tiles that are still available, all visible tiles subtracted. The list of tile types (all 4 5pin are of the same type, for example) can contain tiles where none are left for you to draw.
Score calculation shows the Han, Fu before rounding as well as a list where the Fu comes from, and the base points for that Han and Fu (Just the Fu*2^(2+Han) formula, 2000 for Mangan and so on). Dealer gets a rounded 2 times that from all, other One/Two times that.
The Langage menu lets you select from any "language" specified in the xml file in the folder data. It's only a couple of terms like Yaku names and such. Currently I have rough drafts of Romaji and Japanese languages. If you find any spelling mistakes or know a better version for some term, let me know. That stuff isn't all that consistent on the internet after all.
For keybindings, hit alt and you'll see them.
Now where I need your help: I can't prove that my shanten counting algorithm is correct and it's pretty darn complex. If you spot any wrong results, let me know. Replay File, Game, Frame and Player is the information I would need to fix it. Same goes for Yaku, Han and Fu calculation, of course. Here it should be enough if you just give me a list of the tiles in the hand, unless it involves special things like Ippatsu, Double Riichi, Rinshan Kaihou, Haitei Raoyue and so on.
Also: Does Tenhou allow the 8-wins in a row Yakuman?
If I win I get 1st place If I don't deal in, I get 2nd If west wins, (and I don't deal in) I get 1st If I deal in, I get 3rd or possibly, but unlikely 4th
I ended up bailing, and West dealt into East and I ended up 2nd
I wouldn't decide that before I see the next discard and your draw, you're Iishanten with a chance to go Damaten with a nice wait after all. You also only have one suji 7 and no other safe tiles if I see that correctly. Suji 7 isn't even all that safe to begin with.
Yeah I picked one of those hands with a LOT of possible discards.
Whenever you have to discard something, you can now look at an Uke-Ire analysis of all discards that don't increase your Shanten. Would be easy to include Shanten increasing discards too, but then the amount of data becomes retarded... If you guys think it's worth having, I should easily be able add a toggle for displaying all/only good discards.
ReplayAnalyzer: see post on next page for new version
I also did some refactoring, hopefully I didn't reintroduce old bugs... That 2000+ lines function for analyzing the hand sure needed it. And the remainder of it still needs it.
On October 09 2012 02:16 JSH wrote: This is where it got hazy
edit: I is dumb
This is one of those tricky spots where both decisions are not bad.
You cant hold onto the 8p else you'll either be furiten from the 5p or 7p, or you'll be waiting on the last 8p to complete your pair. With the 6p discard from west, 6p and 9p are now (very) safe tiles to discard meaning that if east is bailing, they will come out sooner rather than later, giving you less outs to win. Because of this, it can makes your pin tiles hard to complete.
You should be able to know that you will almost never come last. West almost has to riichi to have a decent chance to come 3rd and since hes not, its easy to say hes not in tenpai. South can't have a baiman since he discarded the dora 4p and he riichi while only 2100 points behind, indicating he has a shitty hand, either 1 han or non pinfu. No real tells on east but he needs a haneman to drop you which is highly unlikely without a riichi. Another plus to push is that west must push, making it a bit easier to complete your hand.
For now I'll probably discard the 8p first since there are also 3 blockers on both 7p and 8p, and wait for the next draw.
On October 09 2012 06:45 spinesheath wrote: Wow, this went way smoother than expected:
Yeah I picked one of those hands with a LOT of possible discards.
Whenever you have to discard something, you can now look at an Uke-Ire analysis of all discards that don't increase your Shanten. Would be easy to include Shanten increasing discards too, but then the amount of data becomes retarded... If you guys think it's worth having, I should easily be able add a toggle for displaying all/only good discards.
I also did some refactoring, hopefully I didn't reintroduce old bugs... That 2000+ lines function for analyzing the hand sure needed it. And the remainder of it still needs it.
Your program looks pretty damn good. Remember you can't always rely on just shanten. This example you have is a good spot for shooting for a bluff half flush even though a yakuhai would be faster. Not sure if the bluff will work on the lower lobbies though.
You know what would be awesome though is instead of it analyzing replays, have it such that you can input tiles manually so that it can be used during a game. It'll probably considered cheating but if your not that great with tile efficiency, a program like that may be able to help you learn faster.
Thanks, WPF makes it rather easy to make it look good though :p
Well of course shanten and more importantly uke-ire isn't everything. After all we're shooting for highest expected value (at least in the first few hands of a hanchan), and that adds the value of a hand into the equation.
Still, shanten/uke-ire is something that you can analyze clearly and correctly, while expected value depends on a lot of estimations like the time you have to fiddle with a hand before you have to bail or someone else wins etc. Uke-ire obviously also depends on the tiles that you expect someone else to be holding.
Still, this is some precise information that is important whenever you are pushing a hand. Sometimes the right discard (for pure speed) isn't all that obvious too, so checking your replays can show you where your discards were bad. Watching a replay like this certainly is a better learning experience than just watching a replay on the Tenhou client.
To use it during a game, having to input the tiles manually is too slow, kinda. There also is Tenhou's uke-ire calc at http://tenhou.net/2/?q=468m1156778p345s1p where you can input any hand you like and it will do the same thing I do with replays. Except for considering visible tiles though.
Technically, I should be able to write a Tenhou client which works like the online client or the windows client, but ALSO does analysis on the fly which helps you out. I already discussed this a bit with a friend actually. However, I personally do consider it cheating and I am not one to cheat or help people cheat in a game against human opponents. I still can't say I discarded the idea completely.
Anyways, this would be a seperate project. I could reuse lots of code so it shouldn't be too hard, but it would have to wait for a while.
What I can and most likely will do is add a standalone uke-ire calc to the ReplayAnalyzer. It's still kind of like cheating, but at least you're dropping your attention to insert the data, and you won't get the visible tiles subtracted automatically. Just the raw data for your current hand.
Just to make sure: I am Furiten even if the tiles I discarded wouldn't give me a Yaku, right? They only need to complete my 4 melds + 1 pair? For example: Discarded 1m Hand 23m 234 666p 345s 77s I can't Ron a 4m for Tanyao then, even though the 1m wouldn't give me the Yaku?
I'm just getting into mahjong. I think i know the basic rules a bit and now i am trying to find an easy way to practice. I was thinking about an offline game against ai or something like that to start. Is that a good start-up plan? Or are there other things recommendable?
I'd love to hear some advice on how to start playing. Thanks in advance.
btw, i became interested in it via the anime akagi; part of what i know also comes from there. Is there anything about the anime i need to know with regard to normal gameplay? (besides that there are different variants of mahjong and not to bet my own life..)
Mmm best way once you know the basic rules is to just play AI is good to start with if you're still having trouble with the basic rules (ie Yaku)
Try to focus on making hands and making the most efficient discards Play on Tenhou, create an account and try to level it up for a goal Try to reach 1Dan
I played a lot vs bots here: http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/mahjong/mahjong_e.html before I went on to playing on Tenhou. I think it's a good idea until you get a firm grip on the rules. Now those bots are still likely to murder you if you are a beginner.
Tile efficiency is pretty much the most important skill to learn early on. Later on you can sacrifice efficiency for other causes, but you better be well aware of how much you sacrifice and if it's worth it.
On October 11 2012 16:02 spinesheath wrote: I played a lot vs bots here: http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/mahjong/mahjong_e.html before I went on to playing on Tenhou. I think it's a good idea until you get a firm grip on the rules. Now those bots are still likely to murder you if you are a beginner.
Tile efficiency is pretty much the most important skill to learn early on. Later on you can sacrifice efficiency for other causes, but you better be well aware of how much you sacrifice and if it's worth it.
Those bots are killing me, Thirteen Orphans within the first 8 games..
On October 11 2012 16:02 spinesheath wrote: I played a lot vs bots here: http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/mahjong/mahjong_e.html before I went on to playing on Tenhou. I think it's a good idea until you get a firm grip on the rules. Now those bots are still likely to murder you if you are a beginner.
Tile efficiency is pretty much the most important skill to learn early on. Later on you can sacrifice efficiency for other causes, but you better be well aware of how much you sacrifice and if it's worth it.
Should I pass or take the guaranteed second It's a pretty good wait, so I have a pretty good chance of winning again, perhaps to 1st or 2nd place But I would have to win again, in the next two rounds
I still have my dealer turn left as last round But hmm I ended up just taking the second, but what would you guys do?
Either is fine but if your gonna shoot for first, your gonna have to change your hand first to increase your chances. Chi with 7m8m and discard the 8p. Youll be tenpai once you draw another man or an honor. Your hand dosnt smell of a flush cause of your early 1m discard. Insta 7800!
New version of Firefox, still the wrong discard bug. I really need to play on a different browser... Yeah, seems fine on Opera...
Man what the hell is this. Closed Chinitsu, pretty much at least one enemy gets one every single Hanchan. Given that the it statistically only happens in less than 1% of the hands...?
I really wish my luck was a bit more evenly distributed...
I got like no Ura Dora at all in the last dozen games, and then I get 5 when I didn't even need a single one? Seriously.
I have now officially lost count of the number of Kokushi Musou I have attempted in the last couple of days. At least 4. 9 or 10 tiles with starting hand each time. Of course none of my attempts was successful.
About a week after beginning playing, i thought it was time for some kind of update. First i read the blogs by xkime as recommended by spinesheath, without really getting it. I just grinded a lot of games against bots, with very volatile results. I read the blogs again with some game experience and it seemed to be a lot more understandable than first. After trying again, my 2nd try against the bots gave this result, which makes me rather proud, if i may say so. http://imgur.com/P4Url ( <-- copy paste link)
I still don't care much about the discard tiles of my opponents, i'm still too busy with my own hand. ): My first priority atm is tile efficiency, building a basic hand and trying too estimate whether to call on a discard or not.
On October 18 2012 00:27 Yorbon wrote: I still don't care much about the discard tiles of my opponents, i'm still too busy with my own hand. ): My first priority atm is tile efficiency, building a basic hand and trying too estimate whether to call on a discard or not.
That's fine, it takes a while to get the hang of analyzing your own hand. Especially when you get these huge blobs of tiles of a single suit it can get pretty darn confusing.
By the way, how does everyone here count the Shanten of their hands (4 meld 1 pair hands only, chiitoitsu + kokushi is obvious)? Since I've been developing this Algorithm for Shanten/Uke-Ire, I've approached it from a couple of different angles (I still want to improve the speed of the Algorithm, lots of redundant stuff going on...). For me the easiest method I have found is:
8 - (2 * called melds) - (2 * closed melds) - (taatsu + toitsu) melds + taatsu can't be greater than 4 and with toitsu it can be 5 at most.
Another approach was to simply count the useless tiles, but that confuses me all the time for some reason.
Sadly you can't be greedy with the closed melds: 245568m159p1589s If you use the Shuntsu 456, it's a 5 Shanten hand. If you split it 24 55 68 it's 4 Shanten instead...
mmm I dont usually count shantens when I play lol. There really isnt a need or isnt even important until someone riichis, and by that time your either close so its quite simple to count, or too far away so theres no point in counting.
As for an algorithm I think it'll be pretty dam hard. Correct me if Im wrong but even the method you havnt dosnt work for all cases. Like say 2468m2468p2468s + a honor. Thats 4shanten whereas your algorithm will give you 2shanten. Ukeire is more important though so I would say to focus on that instead.
On October 18 2012 16:07 Rhaegar99 wrote: mmm I dont usually count shantens when I play lol. There really isnt a need or isnt even important until someone riichis, and by that time your either close so its quite simple to count, or too far away so theres no point in counting.
As for an algorithm I think it'll be pretty dam hard. Correct me if Im wrong but even the method you havnt dosnt work for all cases. Like say 2468m2468p2468s + a honor. Thats 4shanten whereas your algorithm will give you 2shanten. Ukeire is more important though so I would say to focus on that instead.
Nope, my algorithm yields 4 shanten for that too, notice the "melds + taatsu <= 4" part. It's 6 taatsu, but only 4 of them are counted, so I end up with 8 - 4 = 4. Uke-Ire is defined as tiles which can be used to improve the Shanten of your hand. The Uke-Ire algorithm basically calls the Shanten algorithm up to 34 times, once for each type of tile you could draw. Because the Shanten algorithm also works on 14 tile hands (Shanten = -1 in case of a winning hand, ignoring Yaku of course), I don't have to select a discard either.
My Algorthms work, except for a few bugs here and there most likely (I have hints on at least 2 bugs). I just don't like the speed yet because I want to do deeper analysis (more than 1 turn ahead) as well as analysis of a big number of hands at once. It's not exactly slow, but it's not instant, so it's gonna add up fast.
I do usually count shanten (well only recently). If it's too high (and the value of the hand doesn't look like it's gonna make up for it) I'm not gonna bother with the hand and prepare for Betaori. It also helps decide between Chiitoitsu and regular hands.
Hm, i have a little noob question again, this time about the stuff spoken about in the above posts. If i understand correctly, shanten is the number of tiles you need before you are in tenpai and uke-ire gives the amount of tiles that would reduce shanten by one.
Am i right then that there is a connection (though not necessarily one on one) between tile efficiency and uke-ire? I mean, if i discard correctly following tile efficiency rules, i should theoretically end up with a higher uke-ire than when i don't, right?
P.s. what is betaori? from blogs it looked like the way to play defensive against an opponent who're in riichi. Is this correct?
Hehe, I sure like using the Japanese words, don't I? The english equivalents are usually so... long and clunky. Yes, your understanding of Shanten and Uke-Ire seems to be correct.
Tile Efficiency is pretty much all about Uke-Ire, at least if you're only considering closed hands. A ryanmen shape like 23 can be upgraded to a shuntsu (sequence, 123 or 234) with up to 8 tiles (minus the ones already visible somewhere). A kanchan like 24 only has up to 4 tiles to wait on. That's why you read in those tile efficiency tutorials that ryanmen > kanchan.
Of course pure Uke-Ire ignores all win conditions, dangerous tiles, and the value of your hand. But since finishing first is the only way to win, and finishing first is also the best defense, it's very important to be able to play efficiently.
Betaori means to give up your hand. You only try to prevent dealing into someone else's hand.
If you are very unlikely to finish a hand (say you got dealt something like 147m258p369sESWN, can hardly get any worse than that - a whopping 6 shanten towards Chiitoitsu) but still stack up all the good tiles (34567), maybe call a bunch of times hoping you'd somehow make a hand, then you will end up in a very bad spot once someone calls Riichi and you are still 2 or 3 Shanten. Not only will your hand likely not have any value, your tiles might all be very dangerous. In such a case you might want to hold back honors to prevent people from getting a triplet, and also stack up on safe tiles against all enemies early on.
LogGrabber now supports the file format of the file the Tenhou client uses to store replay information. If you set the input file to the actual file used by Tenhou, you can simply start up LogGrabber every 20-40 games and grab the logs without any extra effort. Tenhou updates the file, LogGrabber remembers the location of the file and only downloads the new replays.
Click a tile in the bottom left to add it to the hand, click a tile in the hand to remove it. Displays Shanten and Uke-Ire for the hand in the bottom right. If you use less than 13 or 14 tiles, an unspecified called meld is assumed. A hand with a multiple of 3 tiles won't display any information because such hands are not possible in Mahjong.
Now also with customizable Background for the Replay viewer: + Show Spoiler +
I included this image as images/mami.jpg, but the default is a boring monocolored background.
To change the background, simply go to /data/settings.xml and change the name of the image (which you should place in the images folder of course). In case your system opens .xml files in Internet Explorer or something like that, you can just open it in any simple text editor as well.
Improved Shanten counting algorithm. Still not as fast as I want it to be, but with less bugs now.
Shanten = 8 - 2 * melds - 1 * taatsu
is still about right, but I also had to take care of some odd cases like this: 1111m123456789p This hand has 4 melds and a single tile: 1m. Now obviously you can't make the 1m into a pair, so the hand is not Tenpai but 1 Shanten. Sure, if you call a Kan, you get a new tile, but that's still a draw and you might even have an enemy win on that call. And if your hand looks like this: 1m111p called: 123m 123m 123m then you can't even save your tenpai by calling a Kan anyways.
As always: Tell me about any bugs you find and any suggestions you have.
Also if you abuse the hand analyzer while playing on Tenhou, don't come bragging about ranking up while using it! I don't think it's too bad if you use it to practice, especially at the lower ranks. But if you play in the upper dan room, I suppose it becomes kind of morally questionable...
I wouldn't be too worried about upperdan players. ukeire is not as important at this level since we (at least I) play around other peoples discards. Always discarding tiles that give the best ukeire may be efficient in getting to tenpai, but it's not always the best when it comes down to your EV. I don't particularly want to delve too much into this but you'll definitely understand once you hit the upper dans.
BTW whats your rank/rating atm spines. It sound like you understand enough to be able to beat the lower dans soon.
On October 25 2012 15:21 Rhaegar99 wrote: I wouldn't be too worried about upperdan players. ukeire is not as important at this level since we (at least I) play around other peoples discards. Always discarding tiles that give the best ukeire may be efficient in getting to tenpai, but it's not always the best when it comes down to your EV. I don't particularly want to delve too much into this but you'll definitely understand once you hit the upper dans.
BTW whats your rank/rating atm spines. It sound like you understand enough to be able to beat the lower dans soon.
Sure, I know there's way more to this game than than just something as simple as tile efficiency. But I also don't care a whole lot about people getting a bit of help at the lower ranks.
I'm currently 2nd Dan, fell down from 3rd. Rating was up to 1700 or so before, now below 1600. I have no idea what happened, but when I was 2nd Dan before, it was pretty easy to get points, but ever since I hit 3rd Dan and won like 2 games, it's been going hilariously bad for me. Even back at 2nd Dan it feels like either I got way worse or my enemies got way better :p Hell, I even fell below an average placing of 2.5, when I was better than 2.4 when I hit 3rd Dan TT
By the way, I would LOVE you to go into detail on how you play around discards. Or point me to some resources. I'm out of English resources to read...
I had that happen too haha I got 3 dan, then I dropped down to 2 Dan, then dropped down to 1 dan, then dropped down to 1Kyu... I was probably playing on tilt, this happened all in one day lol
I ended up making a new account, and it's at 2 Dan now
On October 25 2012 21:07 JSH wrote: I had that happen too haha I got 3 dan, then I dropped down to 2 Dan, then dropped down to 1 dan, then dropped down to 1Kyu... I was probably playing on tilt, this happened all in one day lol
I ended up making a new account, and it's at 2 Dan now
In a single day? That's fast. Let's say you only had to lose 1 more game to drop to 2 Dan. Then you needed like 9 straight 4th places to drop to 1 Dan? And then another 10 or so for 1 Kyu?
lucky ippatsu + haitei raoyue to take first place on the last round.
I believe that I'm back in form now. Gained about 700 points over the past ~30 games so I'm back to even points for my rank. I'll probably give you guys a few tips about when to push and when not to when I feel really confident about my game. I feel that I've learnt a lot after experiencing that massive downswing.
For you guys on a downswing as well, try to play a bit less aggressive. I feel over-aggressiveness was probably the reason why I dropped x.x
Overaggression? I kind of doubt it. After all I never get to Tsumo these 12000 point hands before anyone else gets to Tenpai like my opponents like to do... So if I play even more defensively I'm just gonna lose because everyone Tsumos and I don't get to win anything.
Here's why I'm losing: Well ok, I didn't lose that hand. But what the hell is that? It's scary. I feel like I'm being preyed upon.
Also next round I was playing around a Riichi just to deal into TWO 3 or 4 Han damaten hands just a few turns before the hand would end in a draw... Lately this stuff happens so much that I just burst out in laughter...
So I collected some statistics from my replays: Rank and Rating show the highest values among all the replays I have of that player.
Ukeire draw ratio is the ratio between how often a player draws one of his Ukeire and the number of draws he made total. Ukeire draw chance is the ratio between how many Ukeire tiles are still invisible to the player when he draws and the total number of invisible tiles at that point.
So the former is how often the player actually has a draw that advances his shanten, while the latter is the theoretical chance for such a draw based on how many tiles he waits on and how many tiles he doesn't see. Obviously it's better to have high values for both.
Now I am very close to the average (1/4th of the average is from me though), many people I played more than once are close to it too.
But there is an outlier. いかさましです, 1 Kyu, best rating 622.83. Massively higher ratio and chance. I mean, seriously, 43% chance to draw an Ukeire seems ridiculous. There are other people I played against with similar ratios, but they have a much smaller sample size. 35 Games however is at least several hundreds of draws, it can't just be a streak of luck. Is this a pro on a new account? And what does she do that makes her draws that much better than the average?
Seems more like a bug maybe? Probably not. If youve got 35 games of him and hes drawing at such ridiculous rate, he would be in the dans with a much higher rating (how do you even get as low as 600 lol). Otherwise, seeing how rating is that low, maybe they are like kokushi bots where they hands are always crap and most draws would increase their shantan. Should maybe check how they play.
Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldnt draw/chance ratio be a lot closer to 1 when you already have so many games on yourself? Its a bit strange how everyone is out drawing their tiles more often then their actual chance.
Seems like tenhou has finally recognized the firefox bug + Show Spoiler +
On November 04 2012 21:14 Rhaegar99 wrote: Seems more like a bug maybe? Probably not. If youve got 35 games of him and hes drawing at such ridiculous rate, he would be in the dans with a much higher rating (how do you even get as low as 600 lol). Otherwise, seeing how rating is that low, maybe they are like kokushi bots where they hands are always crap and most draws would increase their shantan. Should maybe check how they play.
Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldnt draw/chance ratio be a lot closer to 1 when you already have so many games on yourself? Its a bit strange how everyone is out drawing their tiles more often then their actual chance.
Seems like tenhou has finally recognized the firefox bug + Show Spoiler +
※ Flash version is cut Tsumo unintentional in some versions of FireFox occurs. We recommend the use of other browsers because it is reported that.
No, I definitely expect a draw/chance ratio higher than 1. For example you can get some read on the tiles your opponents have in hand (and try to move your Ukeire away from the tiles you expect them to have), while they are considered invisible tiles for the chance calculation. And I'm pretty sure that your actual chance increases if several players including you are stockpiling tiles of a certain suit, everyone a different suit. Triplets might also have some influence. I can't give you a solid mathematical model for this though, it's just my gut feeling and I know that gut feeling and probabilities usually don't go hand in hand...
I have a lot of people with 10+ games (usually 1 hanchan only though) with a ratio greater than 1.4, someone with 9 games even cracked 2.0 (1902.7 rating). She had an extremely low chance (less than 15%) but drew Ukeire at almost 30% ratio. Only about 1/8th of the people had a ratio below 1.0. The lowest is a 5 Dan with slightly above 0.7. Of the highly rated people with high Ukeire draw ratios I have one each of 7, 6 and 4 Dan with draw ratios above 30%.
Hell yeah, all that ratio, chance, ratio-chance-ratio crap... Can't find any better names though damnit.
Btw I didn't include it in the picture, but the average Shanten of a starting hand seems to be ~3.6, with a big focus on 3 and 4 Shanten hands.
Well, I'll see if I can dig up a replay of that 600 rating girl... HAHAHA, ok, here's the deal with いかさましです: she disconnected. In all 3 hanchans. From the very start. What the hell is that even. The guy with the second highest ratio disconnected for the last 2 out 7 hands of a hanchan. Despite his godlike draws he fell down to 900 points.
The 4th highest, a 2nd Dan at 1575 rating played legit through 10 hands, but the average Shanten of his starting hands was 4.4. Similar with many other players at the top of the list.
So it turns out your Ukeire draw ratio increases if you either disconnect from the game or have horrible starting hands. I guess that makes sense. The draw/chance ratio however still leaves some questions open... I'm not sure why it is so high for people who disconnected (another 1 Kyu who disconnected, named lulu, hits 1.6). Maybe I have a bug here... But I'm just dividing one value by the other, so one of the vaules must be wrong if it's a bug... And of course there is a whole bunch of legit players with high ratios too. Maybe I should also calculate the average shanten of a player's hand after each of his discards, that might help weed out the people who stay at high shanten hands.
On November 04 2012 22:50 spinesheath wrote: No, I definitely expect a draw/chance ratio higher than 1. For example you can get some read on the tiles your opponents have in hand (and try to move your Ukeire away from the tiles you expect them to have), while they are considered invisible tiles for the chance calculation. And I'm pretty sure that your actual chance increases if several players including you are stockpiling tiles of a certain suit, everyone a different suit. Triplets might also have some influence. I can't give you a solid mathematical model for this though, it's just my gut feeling and I know that gut feeling and probabilities usually don't go hand in hand...
Hmm I dont quite understand that part of your explanation. I reread the whole thing a few times and think I understand a bit better now and my question before was a bit silly. But now I think there might be another problem (or something I dont understand lol). Shouldnt your theoretical draw chance be greater than your actual draw ratio? Since well... your opponents are going to hold some of your ukeire tiles. It dosnt seem right to be the other way round.
Or is it the fact that your opponents hold more non ukeire than ukeire tiles that it flips the chances the other way.
On November 04 2012 22:50 spinesheath wrote: No, I definitely expect a draw/chance ratio higher than 1. For example you can get some read on the tiles your opponents have in hand (and try to move your Ukeire away from the tiles you expect them to have), while they are considered invisible tiles for the chance calculation. And I'm pretty sure that your actual chance increases if several players including you are stockpiling tiles of a certain suit, everyone a different suit. Triplets might also have some influence. I can't give you a solid mathematical model for this though, it's just my gut feeling and I know that gut feeling and probabilities usually don't go hand in hand...
Hmm I dont quite understand that part of your explanation. I reread the whole thing a few times and think I understand a bit better now and my question before was a bit silly. But now I think there might be another problem (or something I dont understand lol). Shouldnt your theoretical draw chance be greater than your actual draw ratio? Since well... your opponents are going to hold some of your ukeire tiles. It dosnt seem right to be the other way round.
Here's how I calculate those values, correct me if I made any mistakes in my model.
The tiles your opponents hold in the concealed part of their hands are considered invisible tiles. The face down part of the wall is also considered invisible. The value ukeireCount is the number of invisible tiles that could be used to improve the shanten of your hand. Draws are only draws from the wall, tsumo or rinshan tsumo. No calls. Of course I am only looking at the draws of a single player.
The draw ratio is calculated like this: ratio = ukeireDraws / totalDraws
The draw chance: chance = ukeireCount / invisibleTiles
For each draw a player makes, the values (draws, totalDraws, ukeire, invis) are summed up and then the final chance/ratio is calculated.
For the chance, I can't reliably (without trying to read my opponent's hands) tell whether a tile is in the wall of an opponent's hand, so I have to assume that I draw one out of all the invisible tiles. I have ukeireCount favorable tiles. My opponents can't magically draw all my ukeire into their hands, so for calcualting the chance it doesn't matter at all, the tiles are distributed evenly. The ratio calculation should be straightforward, it's just the results.
Now I as a player can try to read an opponent's hand and figure out what tiles he has. Those tiles are less likely to be in the wall, since I assume them to be in his hand. They also use up space in his hand, so the chance for another tile to be in his hand rather than the wall decreases. I can try to adjust my ukeire in a way that allows me to wait on the tiles in the wall rather than those in an opponent's hand. This improves my chance to draw one of them assuming my read was correct.
If my opponents try to stock up on my ukeire (assuming they read my hand and know what I am waiting on), then they still only draw tiles randomly. That shouldn't affect my chance nor my ratio. They can't increase their chance to draw my ukeire unless they manage to increase my own ukeireCount which is rather unlikely and hardly useful for my opponents.
There's an online ranking league currently going on in the english lobby (http://tenhou.net/0/?L7447) on tenhou. There is more info on the league at http://www.osamuko.com/waml-presents-league-ranking/#more-3591. You can also join their IRC channel at #osamuko on the Rizon server. Just joined them recently and the community there is pretty cool + there are always games going with them.
I want to play greatly, but the only person in my area that I really knew that played has stopped >:
I'm not the type that learns well just from reading, easier for me when I'm learning firsthand with some explaining. Makes it pretty hard to get into this game. Any tips?
On November 13 2012 22:10 Cirn9 wrote: I want to play greatly, but the only person in my area that I really knew that played has stopped >:
I'm not the type that learns well just from reading, easier for me when I'm learning firsthand with some explaining. Makes it pretty hard to get into this game. Any tips?
So, have you checked out tenhou.net? If not, I guess you should try. Here's some info in case you don't know your way around the site (since it's in Japanese): http://arcturus.su/tenhou/ If you jump right into it, you might end up losing a lot, but it's not like it'll do you any harm.
On November 13 2012 22:10 Cirn9 wrote: I want to play greatly, but the only person in my area that I really knew that played has stopped >:
I'm not the type that learns well just from reading, easier for me when I'm learning firsthand with some explaining. Makes it pretty hard to get into this game. Any tips?
So, have you checked out tenhou.net? If not, I guess you should try. Here's some info in case you don't know your way around the site (since it's in Japanese): http://arcturus.su/tenhou/ If you jump right into it, you might end up losing a lot, but it's not like it'll do you any harm.
Sadly the replay viewer doesn't work for me, I'm on winXP. LogGrabber seems to work fine. Do I need anything like the .NET frameworks or other stuff I might not have? Anyone else using it?
On November 23 2012 05:53 tissue wrote: Sadly the replay viewer doesn't work for me, I'm on winXP. LogGrabber seems to work fine. Do I need anything like the .NET frameworks or other stuff I might not have? Anyone else using it?
Yes, it's written in C# using WPF, which requires .net. I am compiling for .net 4.0, which you should be able to install on XP. Technically, the LogGrabber is using WPF as well, but much fewer features, so it probably is enough if you have an older version of .net installed.
If you can't get it to work by updating your .net framework, I guess I can't really help you out. I'm not going to rewrite it for windows forms or some platform independent stuff; too busy for that. In any case you can send me any error messages you get, maybe it's an easy fix.
I also think I have a newer (better, faster) version of the replay viewer here which I didn't upload yet (I'm working on something else right now, but plan to come back and add some more stuff). I would have to adjust a few things before I can release that though.
I'm curious why you would still be using XP though...
First it presents me this fine 5 shanten hand towards Chiitoitsu, it would be 6 shanten towards a regular hand. It goes without saying that there is no way this turns into a Chiitoitsu, the Ukeire for that way too slim.
There's only 8 terminals/honors in the hand though, so I can't call it a draw. Clearly the course of action here is to go for Kokushi Musou: Abusing my own bad draws. After all I'm only a mere 5 tiles away from tenpai!
On November 28 2012 05:15 spinesheath wrote: Tenhou is making fun of me.
First it presents me this fine 5 shanten hand towards Chiitoitsu, it would be 6 shanten towards a regular hand. It goes without saying that there is no way this turns into a Chiitoitsu, the Ukeire for that way too slim.
There's only 8 terminals/honors in the hand though, so I can't call it a draw. Clearly the course of action here is to go for Kokushi Musou: Abusing my own bad draws. After all I'm only a mere 5 tiles away from tenpai!
That game was pretty stupid. I managed to get to tenpai a couple of times, and didn't play into any big hands. Yet all I collected was 1500 points from a draw, went all the way down to 300 points on just tsumo payments...
No end in sight. Playing in real life this time, my brother actually completes this hand: 1 Hatsu 1 Chun 1 Ton 1 Aka Dora 1 Dora 5 Ura Dora 1 Riichi 1 Rinshan Kaihou 1 Menzen Tsumo 3 Honitsu 2 San An Kou Sum: 18 Han
He sat to my left though, as opposed to all the people who got Yakuman hands to my right on tenhou.net.
On May 30 2013 16:02 Rhaegar99 wrote: Sup guys, Anyone still play here? I just got back into this game haha. Haven't touched it for like 4 months.
I was wondering where everyone went, too. I don't really have the time to play online currently, and haven't gotten to play offline either in quite a while. Sure hope that's gonna change soon. I picked up my replay analyzer project again just a few days ago, though.
I'm learning Japanese right now, anyone know of any good (in depth) mahjong books that I could import? Surely there are good ones in Japanese, and I could use one for practice.
On May 30 2013 16:02 Rhaegar99 wrote: Sup guys, Anyone still play here? I just got back into this game haha. Haven't touched it for like 4 months.
I was wondering where everyone went, too. I don't really have the time to play online currently, and haven't gotten to play offline either in quite a while. Sure hope that's gonna change soon. I picked up my replay analyzer project again just a few days ago, though.
I'm learning Japanese right now, anyone know of any good (in depth) mahjong books that I could import? Surely there are good ones in Japanese, and I could use one for practice.
You could just read Ten and Akagi in japanese. Good enough for mahjong.
On May 30 2013 16:02 Rhaegar99 wrote: Sup guys, Anyone still play here? I just got back into this game haha. Haven't touched it for like 4 months.
I was wondering where everyone went, too. I don't really have the time to play online currently, and haven't gotten to play offline either in quite a while. Sure hope that's gonna change soon. I picked up my replay analyzer project again just a few days ago, though.
I'm learning Japanese right now, anyone know of any good (in depth) mahjong books that I could import? Surely there are good ones in Japanese, and I could use one for practice.
You could just read Ten and Akagi in japanese. Good enough for mahjong.
Well, I'm looking for new stuff to learn in the realm of mahjong. I won't find that in Akagi. Didn't know about Ten and will check it out, but really, I'm looking for something more akin to high level chess strategy etc.
I ragequit while ago but is picking up the game again, currently at ５級. Once again I won't mind organizing ourselves sometimes to play a game against each other Also, though perhaps not suitable for education purposes, I must concur Ten is epic. I consider it far more superior than Akagi.
Yea I've been pretty busy lately too and use up all my free time watching dota haha. I haven't really read up on much mahjong strats during the time I've been playing - only the rare english translated ones available online. If you know jap or chinese, there should be plenty on the internet for you to find.
On June 02 2013 17:07 Rhaegar99 wrote: Yea I've been pretty busy lately too and use up all my free time watching dota haha. I haven't really read up on much mahjong strats during the time I've been playing - only the rare english translated ones available online. If you know jap or chinese, there should be plenty on the internet for you to find.
Good to see people still playing
Yeah, but it's hard finding a good Japanese source online when you're still having a hard time with the language. I can't just skim over a site and see if it's worth reading
By the way, is there a way to change the timelimit in private lobbies or another program where you can play private games with extra time or no limit? I'm asking this because I just got into it with some friends of mine and some of us can't really handle the speed yet.
Not to my knowledge. I remember game speed on Mahjongtimes being much slower, though I stopped using the site for awhile since I preferred Tenhou interface.
mahjongtimes' user interface is a crime aginst humanity. It really shouldn't take you too long to get used to the tenhou time limits, even if it might seems fast to beginers.
On June 02 2013 17:07 Rhaegar99 wrote: Yea I've been pretty busy lately too and use up all my free time watching dota haha. I haven't really read up on much mahjong strats during the time I've been playing - only the rare english translated ones available online. If you know jap or chinese, there should be plenty on the internet for you to find.
Good to see people still playing
Yeah, but it's hard finding a good Japanese source online when you're still having a hard time with the language. I can't just skim over a site and see if it's worth reading
I don't know a ton about it, but I think Fukuchi Makoto is a pretty well-respected mahjong writer in Japan. Or if you're interested in a manga, there's one called Obaka Miko (not even unofficially translated, sadly) that's supposed to have some actually solid mahjong advice.
Ah yes. Osamuko has some good info for beginner and intermediate players. These were also the only ones I've read and probably the only decent ones available in english. For me, http://www.osamuko.com/tenhou-secrets/ is probably the most important article I've read at this site.
Played a game where a nondealer won off someones discard off the first round. Apparently its not counted as a yakuman, so your better off passing the ron and double riichi when it gets to your turn.
So he tried a Renhou/Hand of man, did I get that right? That's weird. Just a week or so ago I was going through the Tenhou Client "disassembly" to get the mapping of yaku to integers used in the replay format and found:
36 renhou 人和
I was surprised, as I had thought that Tenhou didn't support Renhou. But obviously I didn't really have a way to find out. Guess now I can be certain, and the yaku is only in the list for completeness/some random nonsense. Thanks.
Also it seems I have to install the Chinese IME to be able to type out these yaku names... Japanese IME doesn't find what I want it to.
Double Riichi is not the only thing you can get, you still have a chance to score a Chiihou if you pass the Ron I feel sorry for that guy, at least if he thought he had a yakuman right there...
On June 02 2013 17:07 Rhaegar99 wrote: Yea I've been pretty busy lately too and use up all my free time watching dota haha. I haven't really read up on much mahjong strats during the time I've been playing - only the rare english translated ones available online. If you know jap or chinese, there should be plenty on the internet for you to find.
Good to see people still playing
Yeah, but it's hard finding a good Japanese source online when you're still having a hard time with the language. I can't just skim over a site and see if it's worth reading
I don't know a ton about it, but I think Fukuchi Makoto is a pretty well-respected mahjong writer in Japan. Or if you're interested in a manga, there's one called Obaka Miko (not even unofficially translated, sadly) that's supposed to have some actually solid mahjong advice.
Is this what serious books look like in Japan? Books by Fukuchi Makoto on amazon.co.jp Also, those books are like 600 Yen each, thats ~5 EUR. Unless the literature market is upside down in Japan I can't expect much from those.
On June 02 2013 17:07 Rhaegar99 wrote: Yea I've been pretty busy lately too and use up all my free time watching dota haha. I haven't really read up on much mahjong strats during the time I've been playing - only the rare english translated ones available online. If you know jap or chinese, there should be plenty on the internet for you to find.
Good to see people still playing
Yeah, but it's hard finding a good Japanese source online when you're still having a hard time with the language. I can't just skim over a site and see if it's worth reading
I don't know a ton about it, but I think Fukuchi Makoto is a pretty well-respected mahjong writer in Japan. Or if you're interested in a manga, there's one called Obaka Miko (not even unofficially translated, sadly) that's supposed to have some actually solid mahjong advice.
Is this what serious books look like in Japan? Books by Fukuchi Makoto on amazon.co.jp Also, those books are like 600 Yen each, thats ~5 EUR. Unless the literature market is upside down in Japan I can't expect much from those.
From what I understand, Fukuchi Makoto and Hisato Sasaki are the two people who have actually managed to make a living playing high-stakes mahjong games (aka gambling). And I don't think it's that weird for backlist titles from a few years ago to be for sale cheap on Amazon...
Since I'm working on my program again, I could use some replays with unusual things in them for debugging. For example just now I found a bug that could only appear in the case of a double ron where both players called riichi...
I only need the replay link. Alternatively any of the formats where the replay link is contained like tenhou's backup format which you can find in the menu: メニュー (menu) 牌譜の管理 (replays) バックアップ (backup tab)
Interesting replays are those where rare things happen, like any yakuman, things like 4 kans (or even better 5!), quad riichi, nagashi mangan, very long games (can tenhou games extend into the North round?), end game ties and so on.
Generally, the more replays I can get my hands on the better. If it doesn't show me any bugs, no harm is done.
Here are the games in my backup tab. Been playing a lot recently thanks to the midyear break. There are probably 3 or 4 yakumans in there and maybe a nagashi mangan. Other than that, nothing too special as far as I can remember.
I had a game ages back where we reached the end of west round. The game does not extend to the north round even if all players have points less than 30k. Normal placement and scoring is still use.
I'm pretty sure Japanese (Riichi) Mahjong is NOT the same as Singaporean Mahjong. From what I can gather about Singaporean/Malaysian Mahjong, it especially does not have Riichi, Dora and Furiten and as far as I can tell the scoring system is very different as well. Wikipedia even says it has flower and animal tiles.
Now, a Yakuman in Japanese Mahjong is extremely rare. For example a Kokushi Musou (your Shi San Yao) is made in about 0.043% of games. One Tenhou (Tian Hu) in about 330,000 games.
"pong pong hu" probably is the equivalent of Toitoihou, and is not a Yakuman but a Yaku. It's not rare at all (although usually not worth too much since it's usually open).
On July 05 2013 16:14 spinesheath wrote: I'm pretty sure Japanese (Riichi) Mahjong is NOT the same as Singaporean Mahjong. From what I can gather about Singaporean/Malaysian Mahjong, it especially does not have Riichi, Dora and Furiten and as far as I can tell the scoring system is very different as well. Wikipedia even says it has flower and animal tiles.
Now, a Yakuman in Japanese Mahjong is extremely rare. For example a Kokushi Musou (your Shi San Yao) is made in about 0.043% of games. One Tenhou (Tian Hu) in about 330,000 games.
"pong pong hu" probably is the equivalent of Toitoihou, and is not a Yakuman but a Yaku. It's not rare at all (although usually not worth too much since it's usually open).
Hmm your right. I thought it was about the same though, didn't realise there wasn't flower & animal tiles.
Yea suuankou is probably the most common ive seen. Then daisangen, then kokushi. I think ive seen the little winds like 3 times including one i picked up recently. I might have exaggerated about the number of yakumans lol. Ive definitely saw a few since i restarted playing again but im not too sure if its within my last 40.
On July 05 2013 16:14 spinesheath wrote: I'm pretty sure Japanese (Riichi) Mahjong is NOT the same as Singaporean Mahjong. From what I can gather about Singaporean/Malaysian Mahjong, it especially does not have Riichi, Dora and Furiten and as far as I can tell the scoring system is very different as well. Wikipedia even says it has flower and animal tiles.
Now, a Yakuman in Japanese Mahjong is extremely rare. For example a Kokushi Musou (your Shi San Yao) is made in about 0.043% of games. One Tenhou (Tian Hu) in about 330,000 games.
"pong pong hu" probably is the equivalent of Toitoihou, and is not a Yakuman but a Yaku. It's not rare at all (although usually not worth too much since it's usually open).
Hmm your right. I thought it was about the same though, didn't realise there wasn't flower & animal tiles.
The lack of flower and animal tiles probably is the least important of the differences. Riichi (together with the scoring system) and Furiten make it a completely different game.
I can't log in on Tenhou anymore it seem... IDが正しくありません ("invalid ID" would be my translation) I certainly have the right ID, I have it written down here and verified.
I haven't actually played a game in a long time, but I did log in fairly recently to check out my replay backup data. The time between my last login and now has been shorter than the time between my last 2 logins. And on Osamuko's blog someone says it only expires if you don't log in for 180 days.
Any ideas what is going on?
EDIT: Well, I just tried to register again under the same name I used before and it worked. I guess my account really expired. Too bad. Not exactly a big deal, but I really didn't expect that, especially after I was able to log in recently...
Oh man, rookie games are pretty damn hard.
Gee, it only took me 8 games to score a first place and get to 9級.
Question: When you get a Rinshan Kaihou on Tenhou, why don't you get another Dora Indicator? For example final game in: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2013080904gm-0009-0000-x6483b9b6c30c&tw=3 I can't remember anything in any rules I read where it says that you have to make a rinshan discard before you get to add a dora indicator, I thought it always said something like "for each kan, add an indicator".
This is so weird, all the rules I can find that talk about the order of this specifically mention that you reveal an indicator and then make a rinshan draw.
What you're saying seems correct for Tenhou though, I think I remember getting the indicator before I have to decide on my discard if I declared a closed kan.
I was really hoping to get a couple of doras that game, too Otherwise I would just have discarded something even though the chances to win after that would have been next to 0.
Spinesheath, this might be helpful (at 44 minutes, 24 seconds)
The gist is that there are different house rules, some may allow you to flip the dora indicator before discarding, some don't. I would generally recommand watching all 4 parts of this guy's tutorial (even though they are 4 hours long). They cover everything from the basics to special rulesets.
Well, I appreciate the effort, but unless this contains a part that is specific to tenhou.net this isn't going to help me because I know the rules quite well and also know that there are plenty of variations for all kinds of things.
Of course it's nice to have someone explain that particular variation since I can't find it described anywhere, but I'm not going to watch the whole 4 hours.
I guess games in general room aren't as hard as they first seemed when I started playing again. Maybe I was just rusty. 7-7-5-4 is quite the nice score, especially when it doesn't matter whether you're 2nd, 3rd or 4th and play accordingly. Up to 40.7% first place ratio now. I can only hope that independence of events isn't just a myth made up in made up for my math courses.
Does anyone know what the point of this tenhou "statistics database" is? http://arcturus.su/tenhou/ranking/ You can see a list of all your games and a couple of general stats, but that's hardly worth anything... You can't even get replay links TT
I think what was said in the video is right. I've noticed myself that with some kans you'll see the dora flipped immediately, and others will only flip after the discard. Everything makes sense here if tenhou uses those rules.
There is one thing that really annoys me in my opponents currently (well, 2, I hate people disconnecting after they drop a hand): People with ranks lower than ３級 ending the match volutarily (by putting someone into the negatives or not letting the dealer win in the last round) with hands that have no chance to bring them to first place.
I feel like sometimes, it's to cut their losses Like if the gap is too large, or it's close that I am risking 4th place, I might as well take the 2nd or 3rd that dreaded 4th place :<
On August 13 2013 20:04 JSH wrote: I feel like sometimes, it's to cut their losses Like if the gap is too large, or it's close that I am risking 4th place, I might as well take the 2nd or 3rd that dreaded 4th place :<
Lower than ３級 you don't lose anything for placing 4th. Except for rating I guess, but I can't relate to someone who cares about his rating but doesn't maximize his chances to enter the lower dan room. Actually ３級 gets away for free too, seems like that changed sometime ago.
I tried translating tenhou's rules as specified on the website, it's tough because my japanese isn't the greatest (yet), and mahjong is full of words that Rikaichan doesn't know... There are several things that I wasn't quite sure about. + Show Spoiler +
- start with 25000 ten, pay with 30000 ten - uma 10 - 20 - atozuke ari (no yaku before win) - kuikae nashi (call and replace) - kuitan nashi/ari selectable - aka nashi/ari selectable (1 red 5 each suit) - nooten oya nagare, tenpai renchan (renchan if oya win or tenpai) - sudden death rule (south/west round someone >= 30000 ten win (deposit outstanding?)) - maximum game length south/west round - tobi ari (game ends if someone < 0 ten, negative ten count towards final score) - last round oya placed first automatically wins match if he wins a game or goes tenpai - final ten are rounded up to next 1000 - deposit (probably riichi payment) at end of match goes to first place - draw at end of match decided by wind order in first game of match - round+seat wind pair worth 4 fu - rinshan tsumo adds 2 fu - 2 han shibari nashi (never need 2 han to complete hand, always 1) - abortive draws grant renchan (9 different winds/honors, 4 riichi, 3 ron, 4 kan, 4 of same wind) - 9 winds/honors must happen on first draw with no melds made - nagashi mangan ari (mangan payment, tenpai oya gets renchan) - double ron ari (left hand opponent takes deposit) - double ron oya gets renchan - player who is responsible for last meld in daisangen/daisuushi pays all if tsumo, half if ron (+something about honba?) - no responsibility for 4 kan - formal tenpai ari (discarded tiles are ignored) - riichi possible if >= 1000 ten, tsumo must be possible - don't have to pay for riichi if discard is ron'd - furiten riichi ari - ignoring a winning tile after riichi = furiten - (something else about riichi and ignoring a tile = furiten) - (stuff about which kans are allowed after riichi) - kan dora/kan ura ari - ankan = instant dora, others wait until discard/next rinshan draw - (probably about conditions of interrupting a go-around) - (something about same go-around choice ron nashi...) - same go-around furiten is removed by discarding a tile, not by a meld call - (bottom of the ocean tile (the very last one) can't sing???) - (a list of some not allowed yaku/wins including 8 renchan, renhou)
In any case, it mentiones the rules for revealing dora indicators as well as renhou nashi (no yakuman for win on discard in first round).
- last round oya placed first automatically wins match if he wins a game or goes tenpai (except you must have over 30k points, if not you go into renchan) + Show Spoiler +
clutch 30k end win
- draw at end of match decided by wind order in first game of match
also I found some ss for rinshan dora closed +dora + Show Spoiler +
Not enough action in here! I'll just show off my recent results then: That's from the 46 games I played after I had to recreate my account. Those stats seem quite crazy to me. I'm well aware that they will take a dive as soon as I get to play in the lower dan room again (which I will, I'm here for the challenge after all). But after 46 games I still wouldn't have expected such good stats from myself. Maybe there are more people playing now and the average skill level is a bit lower.
Enough about myself (nah, not really). On this page you can download replay packs of all players that reached the Tenhou rank so far (the second white box from the top). That's 3 people for 4 mans, 独歩, （≧▽≦） and ASAPIN. Several thousand replays each. If you download the pack and copy the filename of one of the files without the extension, like this:
Hey, I did badly in the first couple of games too! It actually took me like 7 games to score my first win and get promoted to 9kyu :p It's been the recent games where I did so well for me too.
In short (hope I don't get this wrong, still don't know all the kanji yet): Right side is hand win rate, deal in rate, meld call rate and riichi rate, middle is match count, average final score gain, average final place. Left side the line below 4th place is "flying ratio", which is how often you go negative. Bottom half first line is games this month, rating, and your ladder rank. Rest is some averages over the games of the month.
Man I don't feel like playing mahjong lately. I reached 3 dan a month ago and I was so happy. After that, over the next few weeks, I came home tired from 12 hour work shifts and got onto a pretty bad losing streak(was 900/1200 onto 4 dan) and now I'm too depress to play. Haven't played in 2 weeks now, is there any advice for me to get happy at playing mahjong again? Stomp some nubs at 7447? or Just play in the normal lobby 0 room? I don't want to touch the dan room at moment
I usually just take a break if I play on tilt, like a couple days or so maybe even a week I made a mistake of just keeping on grinding games, and that was bad
Yeah bad luck does happen but it can happen to anyone so just gotta play though without getting upset... which is really hard You just have to get a few good games in and always remind yourself that you made the right decision even if you dealt in! (assuming you did make the right decision) and not be too upset over a loss If it's just bad luck where you get hit with haneman tsumo when you are dealer or like a bs okkake riichi with shit wait (have some really salty memories on this one) and you deal in ippatsu... it's hard to get upset but you have to brush it off :<
First of all you have to make sure you are not worried about dropping a rank. It's normal and not avoidable to drop ranks on Tenhou, sometimes even several in a row.
And once you go on a losing streak, imo you should try to get your mind off of it for a while (which you hopefully did when you didn't play for 2 weeks) and just forget about it. It has no influence on your next games. Don't fall into the trap of avoiding the plays that turned out bad for you in the last games just because of bad luck. You can do the right thing and still lose, but if you take that as a reason to do the wrong thing, you will lose even more.
Sure, you could try to analyse your lost games in detail and find out where you actually made mistakes, but I'd rather just ignore those and play to the best of your current knowledge without digging up painful memories. You'll fix those mistakes sooner or later in a less painful way.
My stats have dropped heaps since playing in the upper lobby but its enough to keep me breakeven at 5dan. A fresh start is always nice but don't get too obsessed with your stats! When it comes to having a losing streak, I always jump to L7447 for a game or two. I don't particularly like playing there though since people there aren't that great and play really slow.
Yeah, I had a bad run these last few games too: I mostly placed second, only a couple of first places. Ohhhh yeah! Back to 初段 now, finally I can get my stats wrecked against better opponents.
Interesting, both of you Rhaegar and JSH have massively higher meld call rates and obviously lower riichi rates to go with it than me. We seem to differ quite a bit in style. Your ratios are a lot closer to the average ratios of the highest ranked players though...
Whatever, I like patiently sitting on a closed hand until I think I have a good shot at winning with riichi, or just damaten to victory.
Also remember that since you've been playing the public lobby, your stats will be a bit skewed due to the softer competition. If you hit the same wall again in the lower lobby you could try opening up more hands a bit and play more aggressive.
I wouldn't say I ever hit a wall on Tenhou yet. I hit 3 dan before I think, and then had a bad run dropping by 1 rank. After that I took a break for unrelated reasons and found my account to be gone. With the fairly small number of games I played in those ranks it's too early to call it a wall just because I dropped a rank once.
How much of an indication of skill is Tenhou's rating system, by the way? Since I'd likely overtake Rhaegar's rating if I win my next match too (I got 25 rating points for my last game and am now at 1897) even though I'm 4 ranks lower I wonder if it has much of a value.
But I have been playing more aggressive now and hopefully that would translate over to better results once I get there And I think my bailing got loads better too Only one more win away from 1kyu :3
I feel like if I can call and win a hand quick (mostly Yakuhai/Fanpai/tanyao + dora(s)), I would almost always go for it, if the hand favors being open Even if it's only worth like 2k or something There are so many times when I got greedy trying for bigger hands and never actually winning :/
But I don't call every hand and I prefer keeping my hands closed. I do like closed hand better as it nets more points, and more ambiguous I suppose It's hard to put into words when I decide to open my hand or when I decide to keep it closed, but I guess biggest influence would be how quick I can win, yaku, and hand value (also how many points you or the other players have)
Also I'm having trouble knowing what to discard when your hand has pairs with random lone 3 4 5 6 or 7 tiles and end tiles with single waits like 12m or 98p. Should I keep the lone tiles which has has potential to create better hands (and ryanman waits), or keep the pairs and penchan waits? Should I discard one tile from my pair to create multiple opportunities for ryanman waits? I can't remember the situation exactly on the top of my head, but if I ever play a game and run across it, I'll take a SS and post
I think I like ryanman waits too much :< to the point where I might be inefficiently forming my hands around them
I usually aim for at least 2 dora if I go for otherwise cheap open hands like yakuhai or tanyao. Unless I'm well ahead and trying to close out the game. I'll also consider how dangerous my opponents look. If an opponent seems to be making good progress with his hand, I am less likely to call tiles. However, I am trying not to be greedy for high value hands either. I'm fairly quick to abandon ship and go into betaori if a hand isn't going well and my opponents are making me cautious. I don't like the idea of pushing a low value hand while at risk of dealing into mangan hands. I definitely want to be close to victory when I start calling tiles. A bit less close if I call a triplet of dora dragons I guess.
I know what you are talking about with the single tile vs penchan waits. There's a lot of things to consier. Like how close you are to getting tanyao if you get rid of the penchan and how likely you think you are to draw the tiles that complete the penchan vs the tiles that build the ryanmen, which in turn depends on your opponents' discards. Also how likely you are to draw tiles towards pairs/triplets for each of the options. And of course the dora. And last but not least what will the waits of your final hand be (sometimes you can even hope for something better than a ryanmen) and how likely are your opponents to hold or discard these tiles.
Since all of this can't actually be quantified... I just go with my gut feeling. Whenever I don't, I usually deal straight into a mangan anyways.
For me, I see rating to be a short term and rank as a long term indication of skill. I like to see spines in the upper lobby and see how you fair. Judging from your posts, I think you've got what it takes to break even there.
I agree with a lot of spines' points. Except maybe the first sentence. I like to open hands with yakuhai even without any dora simple because a closed yakuhai hand would be almost as crap as an opened one. I feel its better to just win a quick hand and deny your opponents of points instead of playing patiently to get that riichi. The only time I would not call the yakuhai is when I would use them as a pair or I'm one or two off tenpai with good waits. Tanyao is more situational since a closed tanyao hand can be worth much more due to pinfu.
On September 11 2013 01:38 Rhaegar99 wrote: For me, I see rating to be a short term and rank as a long term indication of skill. I like to see spines in the upper lobby and see how you fair. Judging from your posts, I think you've got what it takes to break even there.
I agree with a lot of spines' points. Except maybe the first sentence. I like to open hands with yakuhai even without any dora simple because a closed yakuhai hand would be almost as crap as an opened one. I feel its better to just win a quick hand and deny your opponents of points instead of playing patiently to get that riichi. The only time I would not call the yakuhai is when I would use them as a pair or I'm one or two off tenpai with good waits. Tanyao is more situational since a closed tanyao hand can be worth much more due to pinfu.
This is a bit unstructured, but I don't want to clean it up, too lazy.
I do call yakuhai relatively often as long as the hand doesn't seem extremely slow. I guess that and open tanyao during the last games of a match when I am ahead are where most of my calls come from. However, if the hand is slow and not worth a lot I tend to just hold my pair of yakuhai back and eventually use them as relatively safe tiles (in the situation we discuss we can assume that at least one of the yakuhai was discarded by an opponent or else I couldn't call it). The chances to win a slow hand are slim enough even with calling, cutting into my defensive potential for an unlikely 1300 points seems bad to me. I don't think I call riichi very often with yakuhai in my hand.
Generally, when I call yakuhai and the hand is not worth a lot, it's a defensive maneuver. I probably am pretty close to you there in fact. I don't do risky discards just to get the hand through, but I usually wouldn't mind taking the game if I get fast draws. If it doesn't put me into tenpai, I probably wouldn't make additional calls because then my defense really starts hurting.
I never actually thought this through in such detail before, I just did it :p
Seems like I overtook you Unless you made some rating as well I guess... I really only had to win my next match after all. Funny that I won this since I misclicked one game which led to me dealing into a 11600 hand a few turns later, and then I was afk for a couple of turns of one hand as well. Salvaged it by scoring 3 mangan hands.
Won another one. Can't stop laughing. First places among my last 40 matches: 20.
It will take ages for that grin to disappear from my face. I can't remember the last time I was this happy. It was an awesome match. Everyone was hitting hard, yet it was close until the very end. The game collapsed during the west round, but I emerged victorious from the destruction my opponents laid down on each other.
That match was the foreshadowing for my next games at 二段 rank. The average tenpai speed of my opponents has dropped by about 3 turns if not more. Took me a while to adapt and decrease my ratio of playing into super random fast hands with surprisingly high values. And I am pretty sure I had overstressed my luck with that 0.436 first place ratio, now it is time for compensation.
Anyways, after a couple of really bad games (and really horrible luck too) I manged to scrape together some second places and now even a first place. Regained all the points I lost. Starting to feel better about the lower dan room.
My call ratio has increased a bit, but I totally blame that on the much higher number of honors I get dealt and draw. Can't really do much in the area of closed hands when you have to get rid of 6+ random honors for that. I still feel a lot more comfortable with closed hands though.
September was a pretty good month for me. I've been grinding a bit and doing a bit better than breakeven which puts me within reach of 6dan again. Every time I get this close I always crash and burn and lose consecutive games. Hopefully I'll finally get there this time!
I think you should clear up that last line a bit. What happened?
I'm about to crack into 三段, have been durdling around above 700/800pt for a while now. About time I get those last few points.
Best of luck to you, even if it sounds like it didn't go so well yet...
Got there!
Gee, this is super annoying currently. I do make mistakes here and there of course, but the amount of luck my opponents have currently is crazy. Just now one guy won 7 out of 9 hands. The first hand was a draw, and I managed to score a single hand off one of the other players who both went negative when that guy wrapped the game up with a dealer's haneman while they were at 400 and 2600 or so points. Yeah, I got second place... but I sure didn't do much for it other than not play into anything.
This will never come up, but I have to get it right anyways: Can a hand be a yakuman, but counted as a normal hand anyways because the normal hand has a "higher value"? In other words: Do multiple kazoe yakuman exist?
On September 10 2013 23:51 JSH wrote: I felt like I hit a wall when I got to 3dan :/
Same here, went to 3rd dan and couldn't really progress that fast anymore. Stopped playing for a while, then noticed my account got deleted and well, never really played again.
On October 25 2013 17:33 spinesheath wrote: This will never come up, but I have to get it right anyways: Can a hand be a yakuman, but counted as a normal hand anyways because the normal hand has a "higher value"? In other words: Do multiple kazoe yakuman exist?
Yakuman: plain Suuankou Han: riichi 1, ippatsu 1, tsumo 1, tanyao 1, toitoi 2, sankantsu 2, sanshokudoukou 2, sanankou 2, aka dora 3, dora 16, ura dora 16 Total han: 47 ("triple kazoe yakuman")
In most rulesets a koze is always a single yakuman no matter how excessive the han. Of course some random jansou might have differnt house rules and if you ar playing international diplomatic mahjong then of course all bets are off.
Oh I swear i replied to that previous post! I crashed and burned again and kinda went on tilt lol. I'm about 1400 points now.
Shymons probably right about the rules. From what I know, and han over 13 is a yakuman and there no other non yakuman score greater than that other than double or multiple yakumans.
On October 25 2013 22:25 Rhaegar99 wrote: Oh I swear i replied to that previous post! I crashed and burned again and kinda went on tilt lol. I'm about 1400 points now.
Shymons probably right about the rules. From what I know, and han over 13 is a yakuman and there no other non yakuman score greater than that other than double or multiple yakumans.
The single source I found on the internet that addresses this issue directly also supports that assumption. Specifically it says that han is ignored if a regular yakuman is present.
Sucks to drop by that much. I know from recent experience. Back to about neutral in 3rd dan though.
During the last few months I developed and implemented a new shanten counting algorithm (the old one was slow and also had at least one structural bug that would be a pain to fix). It's a complex process involving multiple finite state machines adding up to ~22 MB, constructed from ~700MB of data I generated.
But it is fast.
First thing I'd like to use it for is a small program where you can input a hand and it will display the shanten and ukeire much like the program I posted here earlier. However thanks to the increased speed I should be able to run these calculations multiple turns deep. The discard that improves your shanten by 1 right now is not always the fastest discard to bring you to tenpai. So I could for example list for each possible discard "X% chance to reach tenpai in Y turns" and other such things.
Does anyone have ideas for the user interface or other features I should include?
Here's the ideas I have for the UI so far: - A block of the different tiles - A display for the current hand, a display for the current melds, a display for the current discards - Clicking the block of tiles while holding some key adds a tile to either display depending on the key - Clicking a tile in hand moves it to discard or to a new meld, probably with a key again, some way to fill up a meld - Potentially drag and drop too - Stats are obviously updated on the fly
Can someone explain to me this "japanese mahjong"? I am a very experienced old style Cantonese player. Generally I am a greedy player, I look at my hand and see the best possible outcome and tailor it on the fly.
So far it has given me plenty of bullshit such as the dreaded "furiten" error. Now I know you cannot win off a tile you discarded before, and in this case I wasn't - I passed up on winning on a discarded paipan so I could go out on a reachy triple dora (5 sticks) which I have never discarded before, and I knew it was going to have to come out, and so it did - but lo and behold, furiten error. What is this dumb shit.
Also the AI uses nonsense cheap hands to win, ok so gaiwu is allowed, I got the point, but none of my chin yat sik (pure suit) hands I usually pull off in canto actually work. If I'm close to actually winning, the AI never actually gives me the tile I need to win, or some other AI feeds the winning player on purpose.
On November 03 2013 21:53 shadymmj wrote: Can someone explain to me this "japanese mahjong"? I am a very experienced old style Cantonese player. Generally I am a greedy player, I look at my hand and see the best possible outcome and tailor it on the fly.
So far it has given me plenty of bullshit such as the dreaded "furiten" error. Now I know you cannot win off a tile you discarded before, and in this case I wasn't - I passed up on winning on a discarded paipan so I could go out on a reachy triple dora (5 sticks) which I have never discarded before, and I knew it was going to have to come out, and so it did - but lo and behold, furiten error. What is this dumb shit.
Also the AI uses nonsense cheap hands to win, ok so gaiwu is allowed, I got the point, but none of my chin yat sik (pure suit) hands I usually pull off in canto actually work. If I'm close to actually winning, the AI never actually gives me the tile I need to win, or some other AI feeds the winning player on purpose.
I really don't understand anymore.
I don't understand the Chinese/Cantonese(?) terms you use, but I'll try anyway.
1. Even real players win with bullshit cheap hands all the time. Mostly to prevent anyone else from winning when they're either leading themselves or when they want to bump a player off of their dealer position.
2. Furiten is the basis of defense in Riichi mahjong. To be able to play defensively, you need to know which tiles are safe to discard. So if you have discarded tile X, it should be safe to assume that you don't need tile X to win. As an extension to this, if any of the tiles you need to win are in your discard pile, you can only win by tsumo (self draw). So if you have 23456 and are waiting for 147, and you have discarded any of those 3 tiles before, you can not ron/can only tsumo. If you pass on the chance to ron, you are furiten until your next turn. If you are in riichi and you pass on your chance to ron, you are in furiten forever. Related: A defense guide about furiten (suji): http://osamuko.com/umaikeiki-defense-guide-betaori-and-suji/
3. hon'itsu/chin'itsu are usually both hard to make and pretty obvious, so if the AI is any good, it won't deal into your hand. And not getting the tile you need... well that happens all the time.
If you have enough time, here's a set of videos that explain Riichi mahjong. They're 4 hours long, but since you've played other variants of mahjong, you can skip large parts of the videos that explain how to set up the game/the tiles/etc and only watch the interesting parts.
Furiten probably is the most important aspect of Japanese Mahjong. Furiten allows for defensive play. For example, if an opponent discarded a 4, the 1 of the same suit is safer than usual because your opponent can't be waiting to complete a row with 23 in hand, or rather if he does you don't care.
If you ever discarded any of the tiles that you could theoretically use to win a hand, you are furiten. If you pass a ron, you are furiten until your next draw. If you had called riichi, you are permanently furiten. If you are furiten, you can only win by self draw.
It doesn't have to be actually possible for an opponent to discard any of the tiles that you discarded which now make you furiten. For example if you are waiting to complete a row and have 34p in hand, discarded 2p, and your opponents called/discarded the other three 2p, you are still furiten.
Furiten also forces you to plan your hand ahead and stick with the plan, which adds strategic depth.
The scoring system in Japanese Mahjong makes it inefficient to go for big hands unless you got dealt a very good one. After 4 han, the payout doesn't increase exponentially anymore, and the hands take considerably longer to finish.
Also that AI is certainly challenging at first, it was for me as well, but ultimately it isn't all that great.
It certainly is a valid hand. It's also highly unlikely that you weren't actually able to win this hand as these hands come up rather frequently so I doubt tenhou would be bugged there.
Maybe, though I highly doubt it, a few packets were lost on the way from the server to you and the game didn't realize it. With the result that your client was never informed by the server that this hand can win. The protocol used by tenhou is about the same mess as the replay format, so that's the place where I would expect bugs to be if there are any.
What would you do in this situation? Take the 2nd, or hope to get 1st?
I ended up passing, in hopes that 1st place would deal in or something My rationale was I am so ahead from 3rd and 4th, why not try to get 1st, even if other people win, I am in no danger of getting 3rd/4th
As played, I would take 2nd simply because any competent player that is this ahead this many points in the last round would defend against you since you have already shown that your hand is at least a mangan. If in a different situation where you have your set of 2m hidden, I would play for the win based on the same reasons that you gave. Another situation is if you were positioned between the 1st and 3rd place players. This way if you pass on the 2p, if first placed also had a 2p, he would play it straight after thinking its safe, and you would not be in furiten.
If you did want to shoot for first, you would have been better off discarding the 34p instead of the 3m and hope for a half flush. With the help of bonus points and position, you can snag first with a selfdraw or a haneman win off anyone. Or even think about forming the half flush at the beginning of the hand if you had the two 2m at the start of the round (not too sure what your hand looked like at the start!).
Anyway, shit like this happens and someone gets a godly run. But as long as you don't come last, there shouldn't be anything to worry about!
Hesmyrr, its probably gonna be hard for me to play with you guys since I live on the other side of the earth!
I agree. I never had much luck with ignoring winning discards. Usually I'm not lucky enough to even get one so I grab whatever points I can whenever I can.
That's too bad Rhaegar. So hard to find TL players to play against, yet Caller just has to so say GOGOGO out of nowhere to get a match
Yeah, I agree with that statement ;_; It's not greed if you think of it as a percentage play though
Actually which button does what on the bottom? the bottom right is auto-sort, but unsure of the others, so I didn't mess with them I know one is auto discard too
Ahhh suji. After getting burned hard by them, I rely on them - but never with the riichi declaration tile itself - only when I am about to run out of time and has no reads. Still useful tool to eliminate possibilities when plenty of tiles are discarded though.
I probably would have discarded dora tile to see if anyone calls on it, then declare riichi with 9s wait. Or maybe even would have stayed in dama-ten. Feels like going for haneman when you are at first feels unnecessary. I become very cautious upon being first though...
If I was behind and needed points, would have discarded 9s and have dora wait, though in that case I'd probably never declare riichi (I'd say unless really really desperate, but still I wouldn't. I'd rather have more points to climb closer to 3rd position then risk everything on all or nothing bet).
Yea your best play here is to riichi and wait on the 9s. The other and worse play is to wait on the 1p and not riichi. I think riichi the 1p is really bad cause even though its suji and everything, many people would rather discard any other tile than the risk the off chance of feeding 2 extra yaku and a minimum of 5200 points. Even worse is that one 1p has already been discarded.
Like hesmyrr said, there is no need to aim for a haneman when your in the lead. In fact, what you aim to do when your in the lead is to get ahead of second place by at least a 8000 points, or even better, 10000 points, so that the majority of times, second place would need two non-east rounds to get ahead of you.
Looking at the discards in that situation, my gut feeling is that it's unlikely for another 1p to come out. It doesn't look like anyone still has one of them that they wouldn't need. South and West though might have a 9s sitting in their hand that could come out as they improve their hands (not too likely in the actual game though, since South is keeping his, and West has other places to improve).
This is just my gut feeling though. I might be able to back this up with statistics one day...
Riichi would be fine then, since everyone will suspect you being tenpai when you discard the 1p in this situation anyways. You're probably not going to fool anyone with damaten.
On November 27 2013 18:56 crcerror wrote: Wow, Mahjong forum? I played Reach Mahjong, long time ago.
How can I Change Tenhou's BackGround Picture or Voice SE? I reviewed this forum but I cant how...
I was hoping someone who actually knew would answer that, but apparently that takes a while. I believe you need the external tenhou client to do that, which costs money. 500 yen a month or so?
yeah you need to pay for subscription which is 525 Yen for 30 days You can also buy with paypal/credit card, but you get charged extra for difference currency
To buy subscription, make a tenhou account and put it in here
You can change the background, change the tile colors, and arrange the tiles in any order you like Other than that, nothing different Just aesthetics
hmm. i know how to play, but rarely do. i used to play tenhou a lot, too. i don't use quakenet, so is there any way to know if others are available to play....?
Just post if you have time for playing and see anybody responds I guess. I doubt anyone actually spend time within the tenhou irc unless directly stated for.
@29 fps It's kind of hard to get games with people here, but you can always play in the 0 lobby or the "official" english lobby is 7447 and if you queue up there, you can get a game if you wait a while
Hey guys. I'm new here. I would love to play with you guys sometimes. I'm already playing on Tenhou pretty much everyday anyway, so I should generally be available.
Unfortunately I am not going to have as much time to play Tenhou during December, so not sure how often we'll be able to play each other
Is there any way I can check when you are playing? I just added you on TeamLiquid buddylist, so you can add my name too if you want. Then we'll be able to see if we are online or not.
Finally managed to qualify for the upperdan lobby! Looks like my ragequit, like, one year ago actually helped somewhat since I no longer had to deal with the rating pit. Pretty excited and scared at the same time. Is there anyone who can give me advice about general playing style here?
Congrats! I'm kind of tempted to make a new account too. My first hundred games or so skewed my rating so much that I can barely manage to stay above 1800 even though I'm already at 5 dan. For me in the upperdan I need to play a lot more defensively compared to the lowerdan. When necessary do use your available time to think more carefully. Anyway, I'm still struggling to make progress myself so some tips would be helpful to me too.
I find the opposite to be true. I find aggressiveness to be key here. In lower dan, you can play defensive since you can rely on players to screw up there. In upper dan, players make less mistakes, and everyone are just as efficient with their tiles. To win you need to somehow edge out on them and get as much value out of your hands. There's much more decision making between risk and reward; you can't just betaori every time someone riichis. It all depends on position, everyone's points, what tiles have been discard, your own hand, and the list goes on. This is my opinion only and for now I've been hanging out on 5dan for over a year with countless games under my belt.
What I would do Hesmyrr is to first play what works for you and to play the style you normally play. Test the waters first and if you drop to 1800 rating for example, only then should you try and adjust your style. Your play style might actually work in this lobby!
On December 15 2013 11:37 Rhaegar99 wrote: I find the opposite to be true. I find aggressiveness to be key here. In lower dan, you can play defensive since you can rely on players to screw up there. In upper dan, players make less mistakes, and everyone are just as efficient with their tiles. To win you need to somehow edge out on them and get as much value out of your hands. There's much more decision making between risk and reward; you can't just betaori every time someone riichis. It all depends on position, everyone's points, what tiles have been discard, your own hand, and the list goes on. This is my opinion only and for now I've been hanging out on 5dan for over a year with countless games under my belt.
What I would do Hesmyrr is to first play what works for you and to play the style you normally play. Test the waters first and if you drop to 1800 rating for example, only then should you try and adjust your style. Your play style might actually work in this lobby!
From my experience, someone wins an early hand with 12k+ points (usually a crap hand with lots of dora), and from there on, everyone else just tries not to get last while that guy defends his first place.
Se1th example is very accurate of what happens in upper dan. Usually during the east wind is where people everyone will take moderate risks to gain points. Its only around the south wind is when leaders play more safely, and losers play more risky.
My console version of tenhou logs parser: TenhouViewer. Open source, of course. C#, .NET 3.5.
Allow generate tables for graph plotting (in external program), finding games by many parameters (yaku, player's stats, balance, hand cost, opened sets count and etc), paifu generation, stats file generation (for statistical analysis in external programs like excel) and some other things.
Greaaaaaat wins twice on the dealer turn and be in commanding lead have family call you out of nowhere and drag me away from the keyboard come back hour late to see I got 4th place
On December 17 2013 06:15 teplofizik wrote: My console version of tenhou logs parser: TenhouViewer. Open source, of course. C#, .NET 3.5.
Allow generate tables for graph plotting (in external program), finding games by many parameters (yaku, player's stats, balance, hand cost, opened sets count and etc), paifu generation, stats file generation (for statistical analysis in external programs like excel) and some other things.
Funny, my current project is called TenView and does or will do similar things. Earlier in this thread I posted a program that can download and display replays too.
I see you're using a recursive shanten calculation algorithm much like the one I use/used. How is it performing for you?
I found it was too slow for my needs (statistical analysis over thousands of replays), so I developed an algorithm that uses state machines. The final shanten calculator takes up more than 20MB in memory and takes more than a day to build (hopefully it's not bugged so I don't have to build it again).
On December 18 2013 03:41 spinesheath wrote: Funny, my current project is called TenView and does or will do similar things. Earlier in this thread I posted a program that can download and display replays too.
I see you're using a recursive shanten calculation algorithm much like the one I use/used. How is it performing for you?
I found it was too slow for my needs (statistical analysis over thousands of replays), so I developed an algorithm that uses state machines. The final shanten calculator takes up more than 20MB in memory and takes more than a day to build (hopefully it's not bugged so I don't have to build it again).
I actually also made my own program that computes the shanten number. It is based on a recursive algorithm with a few simple optimizations. From what I've seen it's always fast (<100 ms), but if you have some hands that are particularly difficult to compute I can try them on my program to see if it's still fast.
I'm more interested in your state machines algorithm. By that you mean a look-up table, right? Is it a look-up table for all possible hands? There are tens of billions of unique 13-tile hands. You must be relying on many kinds of symmetry to get that down to 20MB.
Initially I was trying to create a bot to play on Tenhou, because I believed that computers should be able to play much better than an average player seeing how simple my playing strategy is even though I'm already about average. I still believe this but my ideal algorithm would require some estimates about how other people play. Logs from real games help but I still need to put in a lot of effort to generalize very limited set of game logs to complete playing strategy. This is way more effort than I planned to put in for this little hobby, so in the end I had to give up. If anyone wants to work on this though, I'd be happy to share my ideas.
spinesheath, my idea - use preparsed logs (saved to xml) with all precalculated values as shanten number, waiting tile list, wall content and danger tiles for all hands. On searching or paifying, this preparsed file loaded and used without any calculations (apart some exceptions). One replay's parsing time is least than 1 second. Of course, searching on complex parameters, for which we are need to analyze content of all hands in all games (forms search for example), is relatively slow. Uke-ire analyzing maybe slow too (+several shanten analysis for suitable tiles instead one), but at now I don't use it.
I know about your replay viewer, but I wanted to find games from my tenhou log and build some graphs (rating graph at least, ron percent, agari percent, average payment, average place and etc) =)
I measure perfomance of this shanten counting algorithm on 256097 hands (~500 replays) (1.61 GHz, x32): average: 486,01 us, maximum: 22176,00 us.
Shanten counting algorithm was copied from 麻雀C言語プログラム集 site (ShiftJIS codepage), C++; and rewrited to C#. Additionally, C# version analyze waitings of tempai hand.
It probably can be speed up by using functions in native code (x86, x64).
Benawii, bot AI algorithms are interesting :3 I have small list of open source mahjong projects, some of them has AI. Maybe it be useful for you.
On December 18 2013 03:41 spinesheath wrote: Funny, my current project is called TenView and does or will do similar things. Earlier in this thread I posted a program that can download and display replays too.
I see you're using a recursive shanten calculation algorithm much like the one I use/used. How is it performing for you?
I found it was too slow for my needs (statistical analysis over thousands of replays), so I developed an algorithm that uses state machines. The final shanten calculator takes up more than 20MB in memory and takes more than a day to build (hopefully it's not bugged so I don't have to build it again).
I actually also made my own program that computes the shanten number. It is based on a recursive algorithm with a few simple optimizations. From what I've seen it's always fast (<100 ms), but if you have some hands that are particularly difficult to compute I can try them on my program to see if it's still fast.
I'm more interested in your state machines algorithm. By that you mean a look-up table, right? Is it a look-up table for all possible hands? There are tens of billions of unique 13-tile hands. You must be relying on many kinds of symmetry to get that down to 20MB.
The slowest hands for the recursive algorithm typically are the monocolored hands because there are a lot more possible combinations to consider.
It's a Deterministic Finite Automaton (DFA). Or rather a combination of 9 DFAs of which 4 are selected in a first step and their results are combined into the input for the last one, which then outputs the shanten count. It's kinda like a look up table, but a lot better.
It also works on both 13 and 14 tile hands, with a fairly natural extension of the term "shanten" for 14 tile hands as in - winning hand is 0 shanten - other hands are the best shanten you could get by discarding any one tile This part allows for easier calculation of Uke-Ire; instead of drawing one tile and counting the shanten for each discard, I get the correct value just by counting the hand after the draw.
You can browse the code here. The actual calculator is ShantenCounter.cs. The rest is mainly code to create the ShantenCounter.
On December 18 2013 17:49 teplofizik wrote: spinesheath, my idea - use preparsed logs (saved to xml) with all precalculated values as shanten number, waiting tile list, wall content and danger tiles for all hands. On searching or paifying, this preparsed file loaded and used without any calculations (apart some exceptions). One replay's parsing time is least than 1 second. Of course, searching on complex parameters, for which we are need to analyze content of all hands in all games (forms search for example), is relatively slow. Uke-ire analyzing maybe slow too (+several shanten analysis for suitable tiles instead one), but at now I don't use it.
I know about your replay viewer, but I wanted to find games from my tenhou log and build some graphs (rating graph at least, ron percent, agari percent, average payment, average place and etc) =)
I measure perfomance of this shanten counting algorithm on 256097 hands (~500 replays) (1.61 GHz, x32): average: 486,01 us, maximum: 22176,00 us.
Shanten counting algorithm was copied from 麻雀C言語プログラム集 site (ShiftJIS codepage), C++; and rewrited to C#. Additionally, C# version analyze waitings of tempai hand.
It probably can be speed up by using functions in native code (x86, x64).
Benawii, bot AI algorithms are interesting :3 I have small list of open source mahjong projects, some of them has AI. Maybe it be useful for you.
By "us" you mean microseconds? As in a maximum of 0.022176 seconds? That sounds quite fast, though to be honest I didn't even profile my current version yet heh.
I'm not completely sure I understand why your algorithm works, I don't know if it works, anyways. I probably will look into it in detail when I have more time, maybe a week or so.
At first glance I don't see how your algorithm deals with the boundary between colors in the CutMentsu method. It seems to try things like 9m12p as a row which obviously is not allowed. I'm also not sure it deals correctly with situations like closed: 1245m + some honors, called: 333m 6666m This hand doesn't allow both 12 and 45 to be considered penchan/ryanmen shapes because there only is a single 3m left and no 6m at all. My recursive algorithm "reserves" tiles that would be used for incomplete melds, I see nothing that would replace this functionality.
On December 18 2013 08:36 Benawii wrote: Initially I was trying to create a bot to play on Tenhou, because I believed that computers should be able to play much better than an average player seeing how simple my playing strategy is even though I'm already about average. I still believe this but my ideal algorithm would require some estimates about how other people play. Logs from real games help but I still need to put in a lot of effort to generalize very limited set of game logs to complete playing strategy. This is way more effort than I planned to put in for this little hobby, so in the end I had to give up. If anyone wants to work on this though, I'd be happy to share my ideas.
Humans vs computers in Mahjong is (at least that's my view at it) very similar to the same situation in chess. Except that chess (probably) has less board states and only two players. Computers do very well at short term, tactical play, but they are not very good at strategic play. Well, chess computers got fairly good at that too by now, but still, tactical play is their true strength.
In Mahjong, there is short term tile efficiency and safety - which tile discard gives me the best chance to improve my shanten by one, which tile is safest to discard right now? But as soon as you look ahead a couple of turns, the problem becomes insanely difficult to compute. Which discard gives me the best chance to improve my shanten by 2 or 3 and leaves me with a good tenpai hand worth enough that it should be pursued? Does this plan lead to a series of potentially dangerous discards? Each turn you look ahead increases the computational effort by a very large factor.
I'm not entirely opposed to letting other people in on my project, even if it's just to share ideas. My code is a bit of a mess right now though, since I want to redo part of the program architecture and I'm still debating fairly big changes in the database design and encapsulation... I'm also a busy, so I didn't actually have the time/energy to write code in the last few weeks. But one of the (further in the future) goals of my project is indeed to tack on a tenhou client. It would both be able to play by itself as well as allow a player to play just as if he used an official client, but with live analysis and suggestions.
I too. I didn't use any optimisations of algorithm.
I'm not completely sure I understand why your algorithm works
Algorithm run throught the hand (which describe in Tehai array, index of array - tile type, value - count of tiles) and recursively cut pairs, sets (mentsu and ankou) and on the end simply forms (kanchan, penchan, ryanmen, pair) in all possible variations. One pair or form substract one shanten, one set - two shanten. Used tiles are removed from array and restore after recursive call of CutMentsu function. Accounted only first 4 forms (other does not give shanten number reduction). After each variant of dissection shanten counted as (8 - 2 * sets - forms [- 2 * opened sets]). Minimal value is used as real shanten number.
It seems to try things like 9m12p
No, all suits are divided by one cell (indexes 10, 20, 30), which always contains zero. Algorithm is correct and irrelevant to tiles count in hand (if hand has some opened sets). Of course, nuki should not be counted.
I'm also not sure it deals correctly with situations like 1245m + some honors
If honors completed to set, it's one shanten. Shanten number irrelevant to unaccesible tiles - it's a minimal count of tiles, which you should replace to reach tempai. In this hand any tile of 12345m get pair and tempai. Yes, it's matters if you write a bot for maximal efficiency, but not for real value. If it matters, I maybe can analyze waitings of forms in hand to calculate count of need tiles and they accessibility in wall. At now it's not needed.
but with live analysis and suggestions
It's interesting. I want a trainer (mb online?) with suggestions for newbies and intermediate players. Maybe with bots, maybe for Tenhou or similar server. Which tile is better to discard and why? Why your choise is incorrect? What yakus you missed by your choise? Is tile dangerous or not? And many other questions... There are need many algorithms and riichi theory. Who seeks shall find.
I'm not completely sure I understand why your algorithm works
Algorithm run throught the hand (which describe in Tehai array, index of array - tile type, value - count of tiles) and recursively cut pairs, sets (mentsu and ankou) and on the end simply forms (kanchan, penchan, ryanmen, pair) in all possible variations. One pair or form substract one shanten, one set - two shanten. Used tiles are removed from array and restore after recursive call of CutMentsu function. Accounted only first 4 forms (other does not give shanten number reduction). After each variant of dissection shanten counted as (8 - 2 * sets - forms [- 2 * opened sets]). Minimal value is used as real shanten number.
No, all suits are divided by one cell (indexes 10, 20, 30), which always contains zero. Algorithm is correct and irrelevant to tiles count in hand (if hand has some opened sets). Of course, nuki should not be counted.
I'm also not sure it deals correctly with situations like 1245m + some honors
If honors completed to set, it's one shanten. Shanten number irrelevant to unaccesible tiles - it's a minimal count of tiles, which you should replace to reach tempai. In this hand any tile of 12345m get pair and tempai. Yes, it's matters if you write a bot for maximal efficiency, but not for real value. If it matters, I maybe can analyze waitings of forms in hand to calculate count of need tiles and they accessibility in wall. At now it's not needed.
It's interesting. I want a trainer (mb online?) with suggestions for newbies and intermediate players. Maybe with bots, maybe for Tenhou or similar server. Which tile is better to discard and why? Why your choise is incorrect? What yakus you missed by your choise? Is tile dangerous or not? And many other questions... There are need many algorithms and riichi theory. Who seeks shall find.
Oh, I see, splitting the color groups by 1 empty index works.
Turns out I didn't think that example through in detail. I'm still not convinced it always works just like that, seems hard to prove.
What will your algorithm yield for this hand: closed: 12m 11p called: 3333m 123p 123p
It's a karaten. Tempai without live outs. Maybe problems with limited forms with not declared kan (I never seen such hands), for example: 3333p [opened sets] should be ishanten. I would check this tomorrow (upd: fixed). If not - it can be handled by additional condition: if tempai hand has only one waiting and hand contains all 4 tiles, shanten should be increased to 1. Hmm.
Hm, what kind of statanalysis you want to perform? =)
On December 19 2013 03:35 spinesheath wrote: You can browse the code here. The actual calculator is ShantenCounter.cs. The rest is mainly code to create the ShantenCounter.
I looked at your code (very nice and clean code by the way) and see that you're basically summarizing each suit separately in the first step. I didn't look into the second step, but it's most likely the look-up table with perhaps some optimizations to get it down to 20MB. Actually I didn't believe you could do even the first step in 20MB at first, as I thought the number of monocolored hands alone would still be in the billions. I couldn't estimate this using combinatorics so I wrote a program to do that instead. Guess what the number is. It's only 93,600. This is very nice because you can make things fast if you can limit the dependency between different suits (not saying this is easy).
On December 19 2013 03:35 spinesheath wrote: Humans vs computers in Mahjong is (at least that's my view at it) very similar to the same situation in chess. Except that chess (probably) has less board states and only two players. Computers do very well at short term, tactical play, but they are not very good at strategic play. Well, chess computers got fairly good at that too by now, but still, tactical play is their true strength.
In Mahjong, there is short term tile efficiency and safety - which tile discard gives me the best chance to improve my shanten by one, which tile is safest to discard right now? But as soon as you look ahead a couple of turns, the problem becomes insanely difficult to compute. Which discard gives me the best chance to improve my shanten by 2 or 3 and leaves me with a good tenpai hand worth enough that it should be pursued? Does this plan lead to a series of potentially dangerous discards? Each turn you look ahead increases the computational effort by a very large factor.
Mahjong is definitely more difficult than chess, but the best chess engines are already at the level of world champions. Due to uncertainty from the tile shuffling (within a round and also the rounds after) and multiple opponents, I think it is better compared to poker. Despite being studied a lot more than Mahjong, poker AI is still nowhere near human players when there are 3+ opponents. We probably won't see a good computer Mahjong player any time soon, although having the computer assist a human player is definitely doable.
It's a karaten. Tempai without live outs. Maybe problems with limited forms with not declared kan (I never seen such hands), for example: 3333p [opened sets] should be ishanten. I would check this tomorrow (upd: fixed). If not - it can be handled by additional condition: if tempai hand has only one waiting and hand contains all 4 tiles, shanten should be increased to 1. Hmm.
Hm, what kind of statanalysis you want to perform? =)
So we have different definitions of shanten. 12m 11p called: 3333m 123p 123p This hand is 1 shanten with my definition: either of 1m or 2m puts you in tenpai by discarding the other of the two. It is not tenpai because you can not legally complete the hand with a single draw if you had all the tiles available that are not in your hand. If you start introducing additional conditions in some specific cases, you're likely to miss something else. But this is precisely why your recursive algorithm is a lot faster than mine: I keep track of "reserved" tiles which leads to a lot more combinations that have to be checked.
I wonder how tenhou handles this case.
Here's how I want to analyze: 1) pick something that could prove to be statistically relevant, say the colors in a player's hand in relation to his first 3 discards. 2) analyze 3) check if it actually is statistically relevant 4) use this data to give better recommendations by the AI
You can find all replays of all 3 Tenhou ranked players on tenhou.net (10000 or so replays total), so that's where I would be getting my most of my data from at the start.
5 yakuman (normal one for sure, maybe kazoe 6?)
Is quoted that from my code? I'm careful with the information on arcturus.su, but nice to have an actual example.
On December 19 2013 03:35 spinesheath wrote: You can browse the code here. The actual calculator is ShantenCounter.cs. The rest is mainly code to create the ShantenCounter.
I looked at your code (very nice and clean code by the way) and see that you're basically summarizing each suit separately in the first step. I didn't look into the second step, but it's most likely the look-up table with perhaps some optimizations to get it down to 20MB. Actually I didn't believe you could do even the first step in 20MB at first, as I thought the number of monocolored hands alone would still be in the billions. I couldn't estimate this using combinatorics so I wrote a program to do that instead. Guess what the number is. It's only 93,600. This is very nice because you can make things fast if you can limit the dependency between different suits (not saying this is easy).
Not clean enough for my tastes yet. But time is always short.
I have calculated the number of combinations of monocolored hands too. You can actually reduce the number by about half because you can invert the numbers (for each color individually) without any change to shanten. Honors can be reduced even more than that, you can just sort them by their multiplicity in hand.
For single color hands with 0 to 13 tiles you get: + Show Spoiler +
And when you combine everything with the flipping colors and sorting honors trick applied, and also apply another trick (it you can sort the 3 colors by the total number of tiles in each color) you get a total of 437710054 relevant hands.
However, you can't just use a lookup table since a lookup table needs an index (you certainly don't want to search the table, WAY too many entries). The total number of relevant hands is way too large anyways. And we haven't even looked into hands with called melds yet.
Here's what my algorithm does in brief (simplified):
At first I tried to put all of these hands into a DFA. A DFA takes a so called word (the hand) and looks at it letter by letter (the number of tiles of each kind) and then walks down a graph based on what each letter is. Once it's done with the word, it will arrive at a final node, in our case we would have one final node for each possible shanten number. DFAs can be compacted by a lot. But even with perfect compaction (a mathematically proven minimal size), storing all relevant hands straight up would require me to work with 64 bit integers for address space reasons, and the total size of the DFA would exceed 8 GB.
That's why I split it into 2 parts, and it wasn't easy to come up with this solution.
First, I need a so called ArrangementValue. An ArrangementValue has 3 properties: Number of occupied pairs, number of occupied melds, value. A pair can be occupied by an actual pair, or just half a pair (1 tile that has room to grow into a pair), similarly with melds: 1, 2, or 3 tiles of a triplet or row. Value is the number of tiles used to occupy the pairs/melds in.
Then I split each hand into the 3 colors and the honors, and calculate the list of ArrangementValues for each part (ArrangementValues can not be fully sorted, just partially, so we end up with more than one that has to be considered).
Next I iterate though all possible combinations of the ArrangementValues of the 4 hand parts and pick the one that doesn't occupy more than 1 pair and 4 melds and has the highest total value. 13 - total value = shanten.
Calculating the ArrangementValues for each part is step one, that is done by DFAs. The result is a binary string where each bit represents one ArrangementValue (there are only about 50 variations of these). Then I concatenate the 4 result strings and use them as the input for the final DFA which returns the shanten count.
At first I tried to put all of these hands into a DFA. A DFA takes a so called word (the hand) and looks at it letter by letter (the number of tiles of each kind) and then walks down a graph based on what each letter is. Once it's done with the word, it will arrive at a final node, in our case we would have one final node for each possible shanten number. DFAs can be compacted by a lot. But even with perfect compaction (a mathematically proven minimal size), storing all relevant hands straight up would require me to work with 64 bit integers for address space reasons, and the total size of the DFA would exceed 8 GB.
That's why I split it into 2 parts, and it wasn't easy to come up with this solution.
First, I need a so called ArrangementValue. An ArrangementValue has 3 properties: Number of occupied pairs, number of occupied melds, value. A pair can be occupied by an actual pair, or just half a pair (1 tile that has room to grow into a pair), similarly with melds: 1, 2, or 3 tiles of a triplet or row. Value is the number of tiles used to occupy the pairs/melds in.
Then I split each hand into the 3 colors and the honors, and calculate the list of ArrangementValues for each part (ArrangementValues can not be fully sorted, just partially, so we end up with more than one that has to be considered).
Next I iterate though all possible combinations of the ArrangementValues of the 4 hand parts and pick the one that doesn't occupy more than 1 pair and 4 melds and has the highest total value. 13 - total value = shanten.
Calculating the ArrangementValues for each part is step one, that is done by DFAs. The result is a binary string where each bit represents one ArrangementValue (there are only about 50 variations of these). Then I concatenate the 4 result strings and use them as the input for the final DFA which returns the shanten count.
Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand the idea now. This is probably the best one can do for shanten computing. Combining this with some computation you can compute the (approximately) fastest way to reach tenpai, and possibly while taking hand value into account if you can prune the search space enough. Now that sounds useful even to an intermediate player.
I agree... Is there any way to ask a japanese pro (japanese players's opinion about karaten - noten or not)?><
If you start introducing additional conditions in some specific cases, you're likely to miss something else
No, fix only one: waiting not exists if concealed part of hand aleady contain all 4 tiles. In no one waiting exists in tempai - it's noten (ishanten?). I can easily count tiles in sets if it matters (and form 12 [3333] will be count as ishanten), but I don't know which is right... Maybe try to play with computer on tenhou with aim to build such hand and go to draw?=D 4444p hand is noten anyway (on tenhou and in Akagi anime).
Here's how I want to analyze
Hmm, it's sound interesting... Any results are exists at now?) I buy the book "科学する麻雀" with many graphs and tables about hands and probabilities, but japanese language is difficult (especially with mix a math and riichi-therminology) to understood this info...
You can find all replays of all 3 Tenhou ranked players on tenhou.net
Are you about Phoenix lobby replays? I know only about it. Any other games published only as result, without link to replay...
Is quoted that from my code?
Yes =) I had a look to code and related docs... I'm not familiar with this level of C# =D
At first I tried to put all of these hands into a DFA. A DFA takes a so called word (the hand) and looks at it letter by letter (the number of tiles of each kind) and then walks down a graph based on what each letter is. Once it's done with the word, it will arrive at a final node, in our case we would have one final node for each possible shanten number. DFAs can be compacted by a lot. But even with perfect compaction (a mathematically proven minimal size), storing all relevant hands straight up would require me to work with 64 bit integers for address space reasons, and the total size of the DFA would exceed 8 GB.
That's why I split it into 2 parts, and it wasn't easy to come up with this solution.
First, I need a so called ArrangementValue. An ArrangementValue has 3 properties: Number of occupied pairs, number of occupied melds, value. A pair can be occupied by an actual pair, or just half a pair (1 tile that has room to grow into a pair), similarly with melds: 1, 2, or 3 tiles of a triplet or row. Value is the number of tiles used to occupy the pairs/melds in.
Then I split each hand into the 3 colors and the honors, and calculate the list of ArrangementValues for each part (ArrangementValues can not be fully sorted, just partially, so we end up with more than one that has to be considered).
Next I iterate though all possible combinations of the ArrangementValues of the 4 hand parts and pick the one that doesn't occupy more than 1 pair and 4 melds and has the highest total value. 13 - total value = shanten.
Calculating the ArrangementValues for each part is step one, that is done by DFAs. The result is a binary string where each bit represents one ArrangementValue (there are only about 50 variations of these). Then I concatenate the 4 result strings and use them as the input for the final DFA which returns the shanten count.
Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand the idea now. This is probably the best one can do for shanten computing. Combining this with some computation you can compute the (approximately) fastest way to reach tenpai, and possibly while taking hand value into account if you can prune the search space enough. Now that sounds useful even to an intermediate player.
Computing the fastest way to reach tenpai still is rough. You have to keep in mind that the effort for each extra turn you look ahead increases by about a factor of 30. That's massive. A potential speed improvement would be to extend the algorithm even further to cover "15 tile hands". But I have no idea by how much the memory footprint of the algorithm grows in that case, and creating the algorithm would also take a lot longer (already takes over 24 hours...).
If you start introducing additional conditions in some specific cases, you're likely to miss something else
No, fix only one: waiting not exists if concealed part of hand aleady contain all 4 tiles. In no one waiting exists in tempai - it's noten (ishanten?). I can easily count tiles in sets if it matters (and form 12 [3333] will be count as ishanten), but I don't know which is right... Maybe try to play with computer on tenhou with aim to build such hand and go to draw?=D 4444p hand is noten anyway (on tenhou and in Akagi anime).
Hmm, it's sound interesting... Any results are exists at now?) I buy the book "科学する麻雀" with many graphs and tables about hands and probabilities, but japanese language is difficult (especially with mix a math and riichi-therminology) to understood this info...
Yes =) I had a look to code and related docs... I'm not familiar with this level of C# =D
Well, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that a hand is only tenpai if it can be legally completed using any tiles that are not in your own hand or melds. But I have no idea where.
If you cover this case with a special condition, you should make sure it actually is the ONLY case where a result would be wrong. And it's unlikely you can prove that very easily.
I don't have any relevant analysis results yet.
I'm talking about the replays of the 3 players who made it to the highest rank on tenhou.net, which is called Tenhou. I don't have access to other player's replays.
Recursive algorithm can parse such hands if it need without any changes.
Well, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that a hand is only tenpai if it can be legally completed using any tiles that are not in your own hand or melds. But I have no idea where.
Okay, I ask in different places about it and search such games in replays =) "Ki ni narimasu!"
If you cover this case with a special condition, you should make sure it actually is the ONLY case where a result would be wrong. And it's unlikely you can prove that very easily.
I don't know hands which has tempai with 0 possible outs (all waitings on already used tiles) =D This fix don't disturb common hands. But I'd create some tests in future with common and unusual hands.
I'm talking about the replays of the 3 players who made it to the highest rank on tenhou.net, which is called Tenhou. I don't have access to other player's replays.
ASAPIN and so?
I know about logs from this page: http://tenhou.net/sc/raw/ (radiobutton "鳳凰卓"), archives contain actual links to phoenix lobby (unreal upper dan lobby) replays for everyday, as example scc2013121200.html.gz (I cannot use direct links, they are dies fast). Page has js interface in json format for automatic downloading (see on page's bottom "ログの自動ダウンロードについて"). Maybe, somewhere (arcturus.su) exists full archives for all time. You can use it for statistics =)
There you can download their replays (probably all the games from creating the account to the time when they reached Tenhou rank). Actually I don't know what format these files have yet, but the filenames can be used to get the replay links which you can then use to download the actual replays.
On December 21 2013 02:07 spinesheath wrote: Computing the fastest way to reach tenpai still is rough. You have to keep in mind that the effort for each extra turn you look ahead increases by about a factor of 30. That's massive.
My idea is that we can reduce the fanout and the depth by only considering draws that improve the hand. The goal hands that are too far away do not need to be considered. It's not a trivial extension of shanten computing but at least it is within the realm of possibility.
On December 21 2013 03:01 spinesheath wrote: There you can download their replays (probably all the games from creating the account to the time when they reached Tenhou rank). Actually I don't know what format these files have yet, but the filenames can be used to get the replay links which you can then use to download the actual replays.
They are gzip files. The content is the replay in the usual format.
On December 21 2013 02:07 spinesheath wrote: Computing the fastest way to reach tenpai still is rough. You have to keep in mind that the effort for each extra turn you look ahead increases by about a factor of 30. That's massive.
My idea is that we can reduce the fanout and the depth by only considering draws that improve the hand. The goal hands that are too far away do not need to be considered. It's not a trivial extension of shanten computing but at least it is within the realm of possibility.
On December 21 2013 03:01 spinesheath wrote: There you can download their replays (probably all the games from creating the account to the time when they reached Tenhou rank). Actually I don't know what format these files have yet, but the filenames can be used to get the replay links which you can then use to download the actual replays.
They are gzip files. The content is the replay in the usual format.
You should at least look 1-2 turns ahead each turn and take the most promising lines, then calculate everything again from that point (ideally caching some results). I don't think you should be so greedy to ignore all discards that don't improve the hand right now. I would guess that there is some decent information available online on basic strategies like that in the chess area.
Good to know about the gzip.
On December 20 2013 13:40 Rhaegar99 wrote:
He was 3shanten at start of the round and made it to 1shanten in 3 tiles. Noone saw it coming. Luckily south took the bullet and dealt into it
spinesheath You are right, in Osamuko facebook group people found rule: "A player is not considered tenpai if he is waiting only for a tile of which he already has 4" In Chapter 3.4.2 Exhaustive draw in Rules for japanese mahjong.
Good, so I didn't go through all this work of creating a recursive algorithm that respects this rule (and because of it's slow speed the DFA based algorithm) for nothing. Thanks for finding it!
Now, you might be able to fix your algorithm with a single exception, but I would carefully check that it really covers all cases.
To elaborate why I'm worried about this quickfix: It probably works when a hand seems to be tenpai but actually is 1 shanten. But what if your algorithm says it's 1 shanten? If you draw and discard your next tile, will the hand be tenpai or will it turn out to be one of these exceptional cases? Your algorithm doesn't keep track of how many tiles of a certain type a hand will need to draw before it can reach tenpai. What if it's more than 1 shanten?
Here's an example:
1245m 119p called: 333m 6666m
Your algorithm probably says it's 1 shanten: draw a 3m to complete 123m and wait on the 36m to complete 45m. Your quickfix won't apply because you don't know yet that you need to draw two 3m. Sure, you might be able to work this special case in too, but unless you can prove that it covers all the corner cases you're just gambling on the correctness of your algorithm.
And it's not like these hands are particularly unlikely to appear: Calling for monocolored hands isn't all that rare.
That's why my recursive algorithm keeps track of the tiles that would be necessary to complete the shape it is looking at. It also considers things like (45 waiting on 3) a different shape as (45 waiting on 6). This is certain to give the correct result, but really slow.
On December 21 2013 02:51 teplofizik wrote: I know about logs from this page: http://tenhou.net/sc/raw/ (radiobutton "鳳凰卓"), archives contain actual links to phoenix lobby (unreal upper dan lobby) replays for everyday, as example scc2013121200.html.gz (I cannot use direct links, they are dies fast). Page has js interface in json format for automatic downloading (see on page's bottom "ログの自動ダウンロードについて"). Maybe, somewhere (arcturus.su) exists full archives for all time. You can use it for statistics =)
Would you be able to write a small program that checks every 10 minutes or so if there are new replays available and then downloads them to some folder? That would be a nice way to stock up on replays from all kinds of high ranked players. Replaypacks by single players like ASAPIN are a bit sketchy for statistics...
Your algorithm probably says it's 1 shanten: draw a 3m to complete 123m and wait on the 36m to complete 45m. Your quickfix won't apply because you don't know yet that you need to draw two 3m. Sure, you might be able to work this special case in too, but unless you can prove that it covers all the corner cases you're just gambling on the correctness of your algorithm.
It's true, I'd think about i. Fix for tempai is more significant, about other shantens... I can wait and think. Maybe exists a not complicated way to handle this. Are you want to write article about shanten counting algorithms? This problem poorly described in internet.
Would you be able to write a small program that checks every 10 minutes or so if there are new replays available and then downloads them to some folder? That would be a nice way to stock up on replays from all kinds of high ranked players. Replaypacks by single players like ASAPIN are a bit sketchy for statistics...
Hm, maybe. But new archives appears not frequently than a one per hour =) I think, such program is not difficult. If there are not much work, I'd try to do it.
Your algorithm probably says it's 1 shanten: draw a 3m to complete 123m and wait on the 36m to complete 45m. Your quickfix won't apply because you don't know yet that you need to draw two 3m. Sure, you might be able to work this special case in too, but unless you can prove that it covers all the corner cases you're just gambling on the correctness of your algorithm.
It's true, I'd think about i. Fix for tempai is more significant, about other shantens... I can wait and think. Maybe exists a not complicated way to handle this. Are you want to write article about shanten counting algorithms? This problem poorly described in internet.
Would you be able to write a small program that checks every 10 minutes or so if there are new replays available and then downloads them to some folder? That would be a nice way to stock up on replays from all kinds of high ranked players. Replaypacks by single players like ASAPIN are a bit sketchy for statistics...
Hm, maybe. But new archives appears not frequently than a one per hour =) I think, such program is not difficult. If there are not much work, I'd try to do it.
If you know how to download the files (or maybe even have the code for it already), it shouldn't take much more than a loop and Thread.Sleep(). I just don't really know a thing about the download interface on tenhou.net, while you seem to know it well enough.
I've been thinking about writing about shanten counting before, I put a lot of effort into developing my algorithms after all. I'm just lazy... Knowing that someone is interested is a big help though. Maybe I'll find enough motivation this or next week, I should have enough time at least.
By the way, any specific topics you would be interested in? If I just write down what comes to my mind I will probably forget half the interesting topics.
Yeap, it's easy and can be detected by browser's cache =) It's only one difficult: converting replay hash from encoded form to decoded (encoded was in browser flash client, decoded in windows) to build replay url.
And another little difficulty to parse replay pack - 7z archiver. There is need to study 7zip SDK or use tenhou unpacker...
By the way, any specific topics you would be interested in?
Mahjong algorithms =) Shanten, yaku calculating, cost calculating (there are need to test all variants of fu/han counting), AI algorithms and such.
It seems there are new lobby in tenhou: (archives which starts with "sce"), replay sample http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2013121600gm-0841-0000-076460cd I don't know what it mean (unknown ranks, gold?), but replay file format get some new additions.
Yeap, it's easy and can be detected by browser's cache =) It's only one difficult: converting replay hash from encoded form to decoded (encoded was in browser flash client, decoded in windows) to build replay url.
By the way, any specific topics you would be interested in?
Mahjong algorithms =) Shanten, yaku calculating, cost calculating (there are need to test all variants of fu/han counting), AI algorithms and such.
It seems there are new lobby in tenhou: (archives which starts with "sce"), replay sample http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2013121600gm-0841-0000-076460cd I don't know what it mean (unknown ranks, gold?), but replay file format get some new additions.
I will only cover Shanten related stuff for now, yaku and such I would rather do in a seperate article. It's relatively straightforward anyways. As you said, you have to check all possible variations. But if you already verified that the hand is -1 shanten/a winning hand, the number of variations isn't all that huge.
It's probably Jansou Mode. Afaik it's basically a different way of playing for money in mahjong parlors. "Gold" is the currency.
ot the algorithm by decompiling the tenhou online client (actionscript).
I already use this decompiled algorithm =) I decompile it in summer from tenhou client too. There no another way to download replay from any correct link to replay... But thanks anyway) Also, wall can be decoded too.
It's relatively straightforward anyways
I know =) But maybe there are number of tricks or interesting ways to detect some yaku.
It's probably Jansou Mode
Yep, but early I had seen no replays with it in archives... Maybe there was a results, but without links.
On December 24 2013 22:02 teplofizik wrote: Also, wall can be decoded too.
Do you have the wall shuffling algorithm? If yes, please share. Obviously the seed says what type of encryption it is, but so far I didn't bother with trying to find out how it is implemented in detail. It would not be necessary for the online client anyways, so I didn't go lookin for it in the decompiled client.
Yep, this algorithm I found somewhere in tenhou blog (without detail): 1. Decode base64 and get a seed array; 2. Use it as seed value for mt19937 random generator; 3. Generate 288 uint32 random values (mt); 4. Hash it with sha512; 5. Generate wall tiles (136 values) and fill they by indexes. 6. Swap all tiles with another, which has calculated from sha512 hash index. 7. Use it.
Tiles 0-13 is a dead hand(5,7,9,11 are dora pointers, 4,6,8,10 are ura pointers), 134-135 - dice, dealer get 130-133 tiles, shimocha get 126-130 as IRL and etc - hands can be checked by INIT tag;
Random generator initialized one time per game. For another wall generate next 288 values. I think, online client has no information about wall, only replay file =) Else it's cheating><
Yep, this algorithm I found somewhere in tenhou blog (without detail): 1. Decode base64 and get a seed array; 2. Use it as seed value for mt19937 random generator; 3. Generate 288 uint32 random values (mt); 4. Hash it with sha512; 5. Generate wall tiles (136 values) and fill they by indexes. 6. Swap all tiles with another, which has calculated from sha512 hash index. 7. Use it.
Tiles 0-13 is a dead hand(5,7,9,11 are dora pointers, 4,6,8,10 are ura pointers), 134-135 - dice, dealer get 130-133 tiles, shimocha get 126-130 as IRL and etc - hands can be checked by INIT tag;
Random generator initialized one time per game. For another wall generate next 288 values. I think, online client has no information about wall, only replay file =) Else it's cheating><
Also, old algorithm (2009 year and so) descripted on arcturus.su site.
Thanks. May I use that in my code (provided I also respect the license for the mersenne twister)?
Obviously you won't have wall information while playing a match. But the online replay viewer has the seed (since it has the same replay files as we have) so it could theoretically construct the wall. But since you can't display the tiles in the wall in the online replay viewer, I expect that there is no code for that in the online client.
I think its the fourth time breaking the 1900 point barrier and this time I finally made it to 6dan! It took only a year and a half playing 1100 or so games. During this time I've never dropped to 4dan, though I do remember hitting ~100 points at multiple occasions.
There's a few changes that I've made in my play that seems to help me a lot. I'll list some that I think are important with some examples maybe.
Hold on to single rounds winds, own winds, and dragons during the early game
Not exactly too sure what they are called, but the ones that give you yakus if you have three of them. A lot of the times you want to hold on to them until someone else has played them. This lets you hold onto the opportunity to make a yakuhai hand if you draw a pair, giving you value for any hand you have no matter how crap they are. It also helps prevent other players to make their yakuhai hands and deter them from making open sets with end tiles. Another benefit is that it helps you defend easier against early riichis.
The times were you would discard the winds and dragons early are when you have a good starting hand, if you already have a pair in your hand, or you have too many of them. An exception to this is if one of them is a dora; never throw these out unless someone else has, or you are at least 1shanten.
This hand is a good example where you would hold onto your wind a dragons. You want to hold onto your dora 1s pair so you wont play tanyao and your hand is not very connected. In this hand you would discard the 9m first and may even think about discarding the non red 5s next.
This hand we can start discarding east and the white dragon. Although we have 3 pairs here, we have the opportunity of tanyao if you draw or south discards a 4m. The hand can also easily transition into a pinfu hand. You can also see that the other three players also favours this style of play, especially south. He realises that it is very hard from him to win this game unless he draws another south wind or red dragon. If I was playing his hand however, I would instead start discarding the 1p and 9p so that I can work my way towards a pinfu or tanyao in case I do not pick up any of those tiles.
Thanks for sharing the tip, Rhaegar. Examples certainly helped make it more clear. I'm sort of already aware of it, but sometimes I just can't bring myself to discard a lone middle tile in favor of waiting for a yakuhai (just like the case when the situation calls for a betaori but you just keep attacking anyway).
On a related topic, how long would you keep a dora dragon/round wind? Discard it early and risk losing potential 4 hans. Keep it for too long and either end up unable to discard it or suffer like this guy if you discard it anyway:
I'm not sure what it is called, but holding a wind or dragon even if you have no direct use for them just to prevent your opponents from calling it has a name.
Personally, I hold on to winds or dragons until either someone discards them or until they significantly hurt the progress of a promising hand (not 3 shanten/low value/awkward shape stuff).
Imo dora yakuhai pretty much decide whether you can attempt to win a hand or not. You can't really just discard them unless you hit a very fast tenpai off that discard, or someone else discarded one before you. If you still have a single one of these in your hand on your 10th turn, you probably should give up on the hand.
On December 27 2013 17:09 spinesheath wrote: Imo dora yakuhai pretty much decide whether you can attempt to win a hand or not. You can't really just discard them unless you hit a very fast tenpai off that discard, or someone else discarded one before you.
Good point there. I've never really considered keeping dora/yakuhai tiles to prevent other players from calling it before, as long as I can keep myself safe. That explains some games where I've seen the east player discard a dora yakuhai early on.
I don't think discarding a lone middle tile is good in any situation but when you have a nice connected hand or close to tenpai. 13579m 1268p 226s + a red and white dragon This starting hand for example where the hand is bad but each tile has some sort of use, your better off discarding 12p instead of the lone 6s. . I would always keep a dora wind/dragon until at least 1shanten unless someone has already discarded it. I would only think about not discard it if i see people opening up their hands, but in the case where all hands are closed like your example, I would still discard it. What happened there was just unfortunately situation.
With my second hand, I picked up a 1p and 3p within a few turns and riichi waiting on the 8m or 3s. North picked up some nice tiles and decided to race me with just an open tanyao. During this he discarded the red dragon where east took but later discarded the suji 3s. Thinking back this probably was a very poor play and I should have discarded the 3s instead of playing riichi.
On December 27 2013 17:44 Rhaegar99 wrote: With my second hand, I picked up a 1p and 3p within a few turns and riichi waiting on the 8m or 3s. North picked up some nice tiles and decided to race me with just an open tanyao. During this he discarded the red dragon where east took but later discarded the suji 3s. Thinking back this probably was a very poor play and I should have discarded the 3s instead of playing riichi.
Indeed, I wouldn't riichi there. In fact I don't think there are many situations where riichi-nomi makes sense. I usually only use it as a bluff.
On January 07 2014 15:07 mtvacuum wrote: Had to share this epic hand I had as dealer on all last, enjoy btw, would this have been a draw if I hadn't won on the 6m?
reading comprehensiooooon secondary edit so even mods can't see my foolishness!
On personal note, got kicked out of the upper dan lobby after demoralizing string of last places though I managed to climb back up immediately. The level of play difference between the two lobbies are ridiculous. My usual playing style aren't working at all. I guess it's finally about time I force myself to learn efficiency and such
On January 18 2014 01:14 Hesmyrr wrote: reading comprehensiooooon secondary edit so even mods can't see my foolishness!
On personal note, got kicked out of the upper dan lobby after demoralizing string of last places though I managed to climb back up immediately. The level of play difference between the two lobbies are ridiculous. My usual playing style aren't working at all. I guess it's finally about time I force myself to learn efficiency and such
Upper Dan? We had multiple upper dan players in here and I didn't realize? Also how can one play at upper dan level without tile efficiency?
I suspect there are lot of upperdan players. Wasn't almost anyone who've been talking for last few pages qualified to play in one? That was the nuance I got with the information from the post.
Also how can one play at upper dan level without tile efficiency?
PURE GUTS AND INSTINCT To be fair, I got knocked out pretty quickly.
I find that I progress faster (in terms of points) playing in the lowerdan lobby than in the upperdan lobby even at 5 dan (I'm down to 4 dan now btw), although that could be because of my lower skill level. Makes me wonder how much higher the Houou players' skill levels are compared to the upperdan players'. I've watched them play but often get puzzled by the moves they make.
Just gonna point out a few things I noticed while skimming through the game
East 4 At step 15, your better off discarding 4m here. Being this late into the game, if you haven't made a set with a yaku and there are no discards on the board, its highly likely that someone else has a pair as well, or a defending with it in their hand. You have a better chance at winning by using it as a pair.
South 2-2 At step 6, there is no point holding onto the 3p. Either discard the 3p or 6p and hold onto the red dragon. You don't want to regret it later when someone plays riichi later on.
South 2-5 At step 7, I feel you should pon the 8s and discard the 6/8m. Overall you should have more outs waiting on the p tiles
South 2-6 Your first discard should be 8s. Its the least useful tile there whereas you can make a meld with the 2/4p. Onto step 2, if we did discard the 8s, we can then discard 9p, aiming for a tanyao which is much easier to form than a pinfu with the current hand.
South 2-10 I feel you threw away 2nd place on this hand. It looks like you were going for a half flush initially by discarding the 5p first. This is a mistake since you only had twp sets of dragon/winds and two m tiles. Also cause first place is so far ahead, you aren't playing for points anymore, but to win the game. As played you should have at least kept the 8p and started discarding the lone dragon tiles.
It was quite the interesting game. I've never seen anyone play more than 7 or so bonus(?) rounds. I was actually expecting someone to hit a yakuman and come first instead. oh well
Huh, for some reason I thought eight consecutive wins was legit yakuman condition but just checking the wikipedia, apparently that was one of the wisely unrecognized ones.
On January 20 2014 02:44 Hesmyrr wrote: Huh, for some reason I thought eight consecutive wins was legit yakuman condition but just checking the wikipedia, apparently that was one of the wisely unrecognized ones.
I was expecting that guy to score 48000 points off a cheap hand on multiple occasions. But then again he didn't win eigth times in a row, it was "only" six, with draws seperating his other wins. But I wouldn't know how this rule works exactly.
Then again I can't remember seeing this yakuman in in any of the lists in the decompiled tenhou client, so I doubt tenhou uses it.
Also how do you not declare riichi in tenhou? It shouldn't be forced right? I only find a button to declare riichi and to discard the tile which makes the hand obviously out of tenpai...
On January 21 2014 07:58 Shauni wrote: Also how do you access logs? I can't read this moonshit
I assume you want to watch your own replays?
The bottom left button is the menu (メニュー). The first entry in that dropdown brings you to an overview screen with 3 tabs. You can close that screen with the button in the top right (閉じる). In the leftmost tab (selected by default), you will see blue hyperlinks that you can click to watch the replay. The other 2 tabs are different formats which both include the hyperlink in full text so you can copy it from there.
The bottommost replay in these tabs is your most recent one, you can see the date in the first and third tab.
The second button from the right in that screen clears the (locally stored) history, don't click that. The dropdown to the left of that button lets you select how to open the replay; in this window, in a popup or in a new window respectively.
About not declaring riichi: Just ignore the button and discard as usual. At least I think that's how you do it, I don't really know anymore because I just do it subconciously...
On January 22 2014 03:40 spinesheath wrote: About not declaring riichi: Just ignore the button and discard as usual. At least I think that's how you do it, I don't really know anymore because I just do it subconciously...
I've abused autowin function so much that I am afraid that if I stop using it, I'll confuse between riichi and tsumo button...
On January 22 2014 03:40 spinesheath wrote: About not declaring riichi: Just ignore the button and discard as usual. At least I think that's how you do it, I don't really know anymore because I just do it subconciously...
I've abused autowin function so much that I am afraid that if I stop using it, I'll confuse between riichi and tsumo button...
Yeah, I don't think I have clicked any Ron or Tsumo buttons in quite a while as well...
Oh I see you can just discard tiles normally? I thought they were red-marked. My bad. Also, I still can't figure out how all the open hands work... how is this open valid for example?
The helfarer guy who won. I thought you only could win on your / middle winds open unless the special requirements. But he has mixed colors and ladders and pairs with the green dragon... Do the dragons work as your own wind?
*edit* oh i see they do. It's yakuhai I assume.
Other open hands I don't understand are junchan (you can win with whatever open as long as you have no honors? I assume this is not the 2-9 open hand, tanyao?? how can it be worth more) and seven pairs (how can pairs be open?)
And kang doesn't count as open no matter if its from your own pick or others?
All dragons give 1 yaku regardless of wind and position.
Tanyao is when you make a hand with no honor tiles. Hand can be made of both sequences and sets. Hand can be open or close.
Pinfu is when you have sequences only (and a pair). Hand can contain honor tiles. Hand must be closed.
Junchan is when when have at least a terminal tile (1s and 9s) in each of your sequences/sets. Hand can be both opened or closed, but its 2 yaku for opened and 3 yaku for closed.
There is also a Chanta hand that is almost the same but allows the use of dragon and wind tiles. 1 yaku for open and 2 yaku for closed.
You hand will become open if you kan off someone's discard. If you draw your 4th tile and decide to kan, then the hand remains closed, however other players will see what tile you kan.
On January 22 2014 14:33 Rhaegar99 wrote: Tanyao is when you make a hand with no honor tiles. Hand can be made of both sequences and sets. Hand can be open or close.
Not so hasty! You forgot to mention it can't have terminals either. Terminals are the 1 and 9 tiles, Shauni.
7 pairs can never be open.
There are 3 types of kans: Closed Kan: drew all 4 tiles yourself, can be kept in hand and declared later as well (or used for a triplet and part of a row), but it only counts as a kan after you declared it. Your hand is still closed after declaring a closed kan. Called Kan: You have 3 of the same tile in hand and call someone's discard. Your hand will be open. Added Kan: You have called a triplet (already opens your hand) and draw the 4th tile yourself. You can then keep the 4th tile in hand or add it to the exisiting triplet, "upgrading" it to a kan.
Even after reading the wiki entry on yaku 10 times I'm still slightly confused how some things work out in practice. I mean I've played quite a bit and realize how most valid hands are formed but there are still some strange exceptions and complicated rules. But I guess things will become clearer with more experience... Like in the beginning I was so slow at reading what hands I had because of confusing the wanzu tiles, and multiple sequences in same color could also be very confusing. Since I can't read kanji I'm also sometimes confused about the point system. if the dora indicator is 1 pin, the dora is 2 pin, but what happens if the indicator is chupin or a honor tile? And what determines how many rounds there are? Sometimes it seems like the game takes forever. There also seems to be rules of losing extra points if you deal into a kang. And sometimes I don't realize how I can possibly be in furiten. And if you have multiple waits and one of them creates your furiten, do the other waits also become invalid? And if you have say an invalid open hand that isn't worth anything, can you still win on special rules like houtei or haitei?
Since I can't read kanji I'm also sometimes confused about the point system. if the dora indicator is 1 pin, the dora is 2 pin, but what happens if the indicator is chupin or a honor tile?
For the wind, you can look at the center where all player wind are located. Wind that is counter-clockwise of the dora indicator is the dora.
To be honest order of the Dragons still confuse me too, which is why I always keep this handy table open while playing to reference as necessary.
And what determines how many rounds there are? Sometimes it seems like the game takes forever.
It depends on the game settings on Tenhou, 1 round (4 hands) or 2 rounds (8 hand). However the hand does not end when the dealer (EAST) wins or is in tenpai.Thanks Raegar!! Also if no one has score above 30000 at the end of the round, you keep playing until someone does so.
There also seems to be rules of losing extra points if you deal into a kang.
The kan gives extra fu which would increase point value of the hand less than 5 han.
if you have multiple waits and one of them creates your furiten, do the other waits also become invalid?
Yup. When you decide to switch your waits, always check if it is one of the tiles you discarded. Remember that your discard pool do not show all of your discards - some of them might have been called by your opponents earlier!
And if you have say an invalid open hand that isn't worth anything, can you still win on special rules like houtei or haitei?
Yes, since houtei and haitei count as yaku
Don't worry about asking questions. Some of this stuff can be get confusing even for non-beginners.
Even after reading the wiki entry on yaku 10 times I'm still slightly confused how some things work out in practice. I mean I've played quite a bit and realize how most valid hands are formed but there are still some strange exceptions and complicated rules. But I guess things will become clearer with more experience... Like in the beginning I was so slow at reading what hands I had because of confusing the wanzu tiles, and multiple sequences in same color could also be very confusing. Since I can't read kanji I'm also sometimes confused about the point system.
Everyone starts off like that. I remember I use to attempt open pinfus and wondering why I couldn't win
if the dora indicator is 1 pin, the dora is 2 pin, but what happens if the indicator is chupin or a honor tile?
For suits, the dora sequence goes 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 7 -> 8 -> 9 -> 1 For winds it goes 東(east) -> 南(south) -> 西(west) -> 北(north) -> 東(east) For dragons it goes 中(red dragon) -> 白(white dragon) -> 發(green dragon) -> 中(red dragon)
And what determines how many rounds there are? Sometimes it seems like the game takes forever.
After each round, the winds rotate unless east wind winds that round. This includes him having a tenpai hand if the round ends up with no winner.
There also seems to be rules of losing extra points if you deal into a kang.
This is a rare yaku. If someone has an open set, and decides to kan it if he draws the same tile, if your hand requires the tile to complete a hand, you can immediately win off his kan assuming you are not in furiten. This yaku does not work if they make a closed kan instead.
And sometimes I don't realize how I can possibly be in furiten. And if you have multiple waits and one of them creates your furiten, do the other waits also become invalid?
This is correct. Its a bit annoying when you first start off, but youll soon realise how important this rule is and how terrible the game could be without this rule.
And if you have say an invalid open hand that isn't worth anything, can you still win on special rules like houtei or haitei?
Yes. Houtei and Haitei both give yakus, so since your hand gains an additional yaku, it doesn't matter what hand you have it automatically becomes valid. Again, only if you are not in furiten.
Yes. Houtei and Haitei both give yakus, so since your hand gains an additional yaku, it doesn't matter what hand you have it automatically becomes valid. Again, only if you are not in furiten.
Can't you still win by self-draw while in furiten? So regarding those two yaku, only houtei ron would be invalidated.
I view furiten as multiple rules: 1) If you are furiten, you can't win by ron. 2) If one or more of your waits is a tile you already discarded, you are furiten. 3) If you pass on a discard that could have completed your hand (even if it has no yaku), you are furiten until your next draw. 4) If you pass on a win after you declared riichi, you are furiten for the rest of the hand.
Multiple sequences in the same color are really hard to deal with. You'll slowly get more used to it, but don't worry if it takes a long time. It really is hard.
On January 24 2014 02:55 spinesheath wrote: 3) If you pass on a discard that could have completed your hand (even if it has no yaku), you are furiten until your next draw.
Oh yeah, but Tenhou uses a variant rule where once you pass on a discard that could have completed your hand, you are furiten for the entire hand. Learned this the hard way when I was trying to snipe the first place with multi-waits.
On January 24 2014 02:55 spinesheath wrote: 3) If you pass on a discard that could have completed your hand (even if it has no yaku), you are furiten until your next draw.
Oh yeah, but Tenhou uses a variant rule where once you pass on a discard that could have completed your hand, you are furiten for the entire hand. Learned this the hard way when I was trying to snipe the first place with multi-waits.
Are you sure you weren't riichi there? I am pretty sure that tenhou wouldn't do it like that without a declared riichi. I highly doubt that this rule even exists anywhere without riichi since it's impossible to check for the other players.
On January 24 2014 02:55 spinesheath wrote: 3) If you pass on a discard that could have completed your hand (even if it has no yaku), you are furiten until your next draw.
Oh yeah, but Tenhou uses a variant rule where once you pass on a discard that could have completed your hand, you are furiten for the entire hand. Learned this the hard way when I was trying to snipe the first place with multi-waits.
Are you sure you weren't riichi there? I am pretty sure that tenhou wouldn't do it like that without a declared riichi. I highly doubt that this rule even exists anywhere without riichi since it's impossible to check for the other players.
Oh yeah, that happened when I declared riichi. Is there a rule that prevents passing up when you have a declared riichi? I didn't know about that.
On January 24 2014 02:55 spinesheath wrote: 3) If you pass on a discard that could have completed your hand (even if it has no yaku), you are furiten until your next draw.
Oh yeah, but Tenhou uses a variant rule where once you pass on a discard that could have completed your hand, you are furiten for the entire hand. Learned this the hard way when I was trying to snipe the first place with multi-waits.
Are you sure you weren't riichi there? I am pretty sure that tenhou wouldn't do it like that without a declared riichi. I highly doubt that this rule even exists anywhere without riichi since it's impossible to check for the other players.
Oh yeah, that happened when I declared riichi. Is there a rule that prevents passing up when you have a declared riichi? I didn't know about that.
Well, no you are not prevented from passing a win while riichi (I have done so before), but you will be furiten for the rest of the hand. See number 4) in my post above.
On January 24 2014 13:52 Hesmyrr wrote: Oh man, and I call myself 4 dan
Yea, you should know various parts of the rule book by now. :p
Anyways, I used to make edits on Wikipedia. However, I've pretty much abandoned it because of the inability to extend the articles or even clean them up, as the stand now. Perhaps someday, I just might. For now, when it comes to Wikis and Japanese Mahjong, I've been doing a lot of work here:
The kind of stuff I can do in this Wiki -- I cannot necessarily do in regular Wiki due to its rules, limited English publication, and my inability to read Japanese (denying me access to Japanese publication).
With the arcturus.su domain, some of you should recognize that. Maybe. If y'guys feel like it, feel free to help out. I'm just a mere 2-dan for now. Although, I should be at like 4-dan or so. At least, I think so. :D
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Kokushi like a million times more likely in 3man? At least you're about 26% more likely to draw a Kokushi tile in 3mans (assuming not a single tile was drawn before that).
Anyways, you're playing a lot of 3man lately? How is it? Can it be taken seriously?
They are definitely more common. Ive seen a bunch of yakumans already in my run in 3man. Mostly suuankous though.
I only started playing some 3man cause my internet has been slow and disconnecting a lot recently. It's pretty fun since everything goes so quick but the games are extremely volatile. Mangan hands are the norm and half of those would be hanemans. The game is a lot different to 4man even if the rules are almost the same. No chi makes sequences less viable. The dora north makes yakuhais king. And now 2-8m drastically reduces the probability of certain yakus like pinfu, tanyao , juncha, tanyao, Instead, you have toitoi and flushes dominating the game.
I'm at 2dan atm but I think I can make it to 4dan without too much trouble. I don't think I will play it that much more after that though. I feel 3man lacks depth and mistakes don't get punished so easily.
On January 22 2014 03:40 spinesheath wrote: About not declaring riichi: Just ignore the button and discard as usual. At least I think that's how you do it, I don't really know anymore because I just do it subconciously...
I've abused autowin function so much that I am afraid that if I stop using it, I'll confuse between riichi and tsumo button...
Yeah, I've played against someone who lost his Tenhou win because he decided to double riichi instead.
On January 27 2014 03:13 S1eth wrote: Yeah, I've played against someone who lost his Tenhou win because he decided to double riichi instead.
Hmm, that kinda makes me think about the oya double riichi, that I pulled a few days ago. At that time, after I instinctively clicked the riichi button -- the prospect of getting tenhou wasn't even close in my mind, until after the fact. Thankfully, it was not a tenhou hand to begin with.
Given the tiles 14m and 15p, which 1 would you discard and why?
I've asked myself this question before and I came to the conclusion that discarding 1m is best. The first point is that the 15p has has an additional draw (7p) that can help improve the hand. The second point is if you draw a 2p, they provides more and better waits for the next draw than if you drew 2m or 3m. I used this following example to help me. If you first draw a 2 in both scenarios, then if you draw the following:
2m gives you a double single waits on the 12m and 24m 3m completes the 12m sequence 4m gives you a pair 5m gives you double sided waits on 36m however the 3m becomes a shared wait with the 12m 6m gives you a single wait.
3p completes the 12p sequence 4p gives you a double sided wait however the 3p becomes a shared wait with the 12p 5p gives you a pair 6p gives you a double sided wait without any shared waits with the 12p 7p gives you a single wait.
As you can see, the 15p comes out better if you first drew the 2p. I hope you understand this poor explanation lol. I'm not too good with these terminologies.
What are your thoughts on the 122 shape?
This shape by itself is not that efficient on its own. Using 3 tiles, it has 6 tiles to draw from the complete a sequence or set. However what you do with this should depend on what your other hands look like. If you don't have a pair in your hand, you should immediately discard the 1, else just leave it as it until your hand improves a bit more.
Yeah, that's what I have been doing too, for pretty much the same reasons. I just ran into a lot of these situations and I find them really annoying so I wanted to hear other people's opinions.
Weird, I know I read that article but couldn't remember that it touched the topic.
On January 30 2014 16:52 Rhaegar99 wrote: Is it just me or can you play lower lobby and higher games in premium client now?
Yea, I read the Tenhou manual. Joukyuu is denoted as Free now for Premium. So, I'll be happy about that. At least, custom lobbies have always been available on Premium.
Somehow I don't understand what you two are talking about.
By the way, is the premium client worth getting? Actually that's a stupid question, I just bought 60 days to try it out.
I changed my region settings to Japanese to get the windows client to display properly. Is there a better way? I also promptly placed 4th and I'm pretty sure that the unfamiliar looks of the client played a big role in that as I had trouble keeping track of discarded tiles
Lower dan lobby has been available to premium at any rank since I started playing several months ago. This doesn't apply to upper dan. Houou requires premium to play.
I like the premium client a lot. I would say if you play in lower dan or upper dan lobby (where premium flash is not available) and play at least 10 games a month it is worth the $5.25 or so you need to pay. The graphics is much better than the economy flash version. You also get one gameplay advantage: when you call chi or pon you can choose between the red five and a regular five. I believe the flash clients always choose the red five for you.
By the way, for a programmer like you, it should be easy to use the premium client without paying for premium. There is essentially no protection to prevent this at all. Then again we should be supporting the developer for nice work on the ranking system and the premium client.
Use Microsoft AppLocale to launch the client. It lets you change the system locale for a single program without any restart.
On January 31 2014 07:09 Benawii wrote: You also get one gameplay advantage: when you call chi you can choose between the red five and a regular five.
Talk about pay to win.
About two years ago when I started, I was playing in the public lobby on the premium client for like forever before I was told you could access lower lobby with the economy client. Back then it was not available to us, or to me at least. I just checked yesterday and I can access both lower and upper lobbies with the premium client. Can't access the last lobby though. Anyone know what they call that lobby?
On January 31 2014 11:50 Rhaegar99 wrote: About two years ago when I started, I was playing in the public lobby on the premium client for like forever before I was told you could access lower lobby with the economy client. Back then it was not available to us, or to me at least. I just checked yesterday and I can access both lower and upper lobbies with the premium client.
This is new. A few months ago I definitely could not play in the lower dan or upper dan lobby using the premium flash client, and now I can. Must be a recent change.
On January 31 2014 07:09 Benawii wrote: By the way, for a programmer like you, it should be easy to use the premium client without paying for premium. There is essentially no protection to prevent this at all. Then again we should be supporting the developer for nice work on the ranking system and the premium client.
Use Microsoft AppLocale to launch the client. It lets you change the system locale for a single program without any restart.
I might write my own client one day, but I certainly wouldn't try to avoid paying for tenhou. They already give you most of the content for free anyways.
Oh, AppLocale still works? For Windows 7 that is. Well, no downsides to Japanese region settings spotted so far anyways. Downside spotted: Different font in Console... Luckily AppLocale does work indeed.
should have discarded the 1m for the better wait, this is also something I witnessed from a while back, poor guy also lost his riichi stick to the pot for the next hand
You are 16200 ahead of 2nd place and 2 shanten. 2 players are (or should be) tenpai. West probably is wating for Chun or already has a triplet of them. Does he even have any other ways to win? Defend. Conveniently enough discarding the 4p doesn't even hurt your shanten while being a genbutsu. Then again your shanten doesn't matter here because you can't get rid of the Chun anyways and won't draw another one either.
Or... are you trying to be sneaky and discard the Chun? That would actually be pretty damn sweet.
Fold completely. Chun is outrageously dangerous tile I'll never discard, and there is enough safe tiles on the hand. Another factor in consideration: first place, low value hand, bad wait, not enough dora North tiles on the board. Ideal order of discard would be 2p, 4p, 1p, 3p (heavier focus on North than West with his joke hand).
There's probably something I am missing, but I wouldn't have time to think more than that within 10s anyway.
Edit: Read the comment above, I can see why you would want to discard the Chun, since only way for West hand to be viable is Chuns. Pass the hand cheaply. Still there's chance that he - being last place - is just kanning in hope of someone else dealing into massive hand. Also I wouldn't understand why he would throw away pair of 1 if chun is his winning tile (so his previous hand would be 1-1-red-red). Not worth the attempt.
West has a pair of Chun and any other pair. You can see that he tsumokiri'd everything after the red 5m since he wouldn't want to break up his tenpai even with a shitty hand.
I would obviously like to know when he made those calls, but since he called 888s and 123s you can assume that he had 2 Chun very early. He wouldn't call those with 666m in hand if he's not planning to win the hand.
It's pretty crazy how much you can read from this hand...
Fold completely. Chun is outrageously dangerous tile I'll never discard, and there is enough safe tiles on the hand. Another factor in consideration: first place, low value hand, bad wait, not enough dora North tiles on the board. Ideal order of discard would be 2p, 4p, 1p, 3p (heavier focus on North than West with his joke hand).
There's probably something I am missing, but I wouldn't have time to think more than that within 10s anyway.
Edit: Read the comment above, I can see why you would want to discard the Chun, since only way for West hand to be viable is Chuns. Pass the hand cheaply. Still there's chance that he - being last place - is just kanning in hope of someone else dealing into massive hand. Also I wouldn't understand why he would throw away pair of 1 if chun is his winning tile (so his previous hand would be 1-1-red-red). Not worth the attempt.
But we don't know for sure if he discard the pair of 1m in his hand. It could be 2 consecutive draw and discard. He could possibly have Pei Pei Chun Chun in his hand.
Of course I would fold right away as this hand is not worth it. There's 6 draws left and you got 4 safe tiles.
On February 10 2014 22:26 S1eth wrote: Riichi button is too tempting.
On February 23 2014 05:15 spinesheath wrote: Reply to Hesmyrr: + Show Spoiler +
West has a pair of Chun and any other pair. You can see that he tsumokiri'd everything after the red 5m since he wouldn't want to break up his tenpai even with a shitty hand.
I would obviously like to know when he made those calls, but since he called 888s and 123s you can assume that he had 2 Chun very early. He wouldn't call those with 666m in hand if he's not planning to win the hand.
It's pretty crazy how much you can read from this hand...
Actually I am not reading anything into the 5m, it's just that those tiles are greyed out in the pond, which means they were discarded the turn they were drawn. So he never had 11m in hand.
Actually I am not reading anything into the 5m, it's just that those tiles are greyed out in the pond, which means they were discarded the turn they were drawn. So he never had 11m in hand.
Showing tsumokiri as greyed out discards is only for replays (although the data is available to the client during the game, it's just not displayed like that). And if I'm not mistaken that screenshot isn't from the premium client.
I read somewhere that once upon a time the client displayed tsumokiri in the pond, but they took it out again because people didn't like it. So now you have to watch your opponent and remember for each tile if it came from the draw or from the hand. Tiles from the hand are shown as coming from a random slot in the hand though, so no reading into that.
It's interesting to read everyone's comments about this position. As spine said, west is [highly likely to be] waiting on chun and there is no way for me to win without discarding that tile. Betaori is definitely an option and no way an incorrect play in this situation. Tenhou is correct to say that there are only 6 draws remaining, however after seeing both north and west discarding dangerous tiles after south played riichi, south actually has up to 18 draws and not 6. This is where we could play the chun to let us pass the round cheaply. The best move here really comes down to risk vs reward and your own opinion on how much they weigh.
Each option has a few scenarios that may happen. From most likely to least likely, by playing betaori: 1. South wins off east or north - Again we can say its most likely a mangan hand. Not too bad of a situation for us here but we are still within firing range especially since south becomes the dealer in the next round. 2. North plays riichi - Theres no reason for north not to play riichi if he is in tenpai and not playing betaori. This give us another candidate for a possible haneman. 3. South wins a haneman off west - The best case scenario for us. Ends the game 4. South tsumos - The worst case scenario when playing betaori; we can assume a minimum mangan hand which puts south within a few thousand points of us. 5. Draw - A good result for us. 6. West wins off south or north - We keep our lead and go into the next round!
By playing chun: 7. Deal into south with no doras - 1300 points. 8. Deal into south with 2 north tiles - This becomes a 40fu 3han hand which turns out to be 5200 points. 9. Double ron - Probably the only thing that made me use up my thinking time. If south had the other chun tile, he could also play riichi with a single wait on chun as his only chance to win the round. Unlikely, but still a possibility. 10. Nothing happens - Very unlikely lol.
With north and west not playing betaori, I though that a majority of the times, 2nd or 3rd place will gain on us a significant amount if I played betaori. By playing the chun, I though there would be about a 95% or so chance i will deal in with a maximum of 5200 with at least 50% of it being only 1300 points. With this, I believe chun was the best play here.
Also for those who didn't know, tiles that are 1 or 2 above and below from the riichi tile are consider very dangerous tiles to play. In this example, 4p 7p would be considered bad tiles to play due to the 556p pattern. There is also the 554p pattern but the 3p has already been played here.
4p is not a dangerous tile here though because North discarded it right before your draw, so everyone else is furiten on that tile. It's the safest discard in your hand.
That was perhaps a bit too easy. The answer wouldn't change even if the draw was 2s instead of red 5s (i.e. as in the previous turn). I gotta be more careful and think a bit more in real games.
Furiten means when you're on a multiwait ANY tile that would have completed that wait cannot be in your discard pile. In this case 3/6/9 all complete your hand.
On February 28 2014 12:44 Pocom wrote: Can someone explain why I could not win? (look at my hand, in reach and the immediate discard before me, not the actual win)
The only stick I discarded with 9 of sticks. The player before me discarded my winning tile 3 of sticks, but Tenhou did not allow me to ron.
I am aware that by furiten rules I am prevented from winning on 6 of 9 of sticks. But why is 3 of sticks also included?
Every tile is included. You are either in furiten or you are not. There is no partial furiten for a certain tile or tiles.
On February 23 2014 13:04 Rhaegar99 wrote: It's interesting to read everyone's comments about this position. As spine said, west is [highly likely to be] waiting on chun and there is no way for me to win without discarding that tile. Betaori is definitely an option and no way an incorrect play in this situation. Tenhou is correct to say that there are only 6 draws remaining, however after seeing both north and west discarding dangerous tiles after south played riichi, south actually has up to 18 draws and not 6. This is where we could play the chun to let us pass the round cheaply. The best move here really comes down to risk vs reward and your own opinion on how much they weigh.
Each option has a few scenarios that may happen. From most likely to least likely, by playing betaori: 1. South wins off east or north - Again we can say its most likely a mangan hand. Not too bad of a situation for us here but we are still within firing range especially since south becomes the dealer in the next round. 2. North plays riichi - Theres no reason for north not to play riichi if he is in tenpai and not playing betaori. This give us another candidate for a possible haneman. 3. South wins a haneman off west - The best case scenario for us. Ends the game 4. South tsumos - The worst case scenario when playing betaori; we can assume a minimum mangan hand which puts south within a few thousand points of us. 5. Draw - A good result for us. 6. West wins off south or north - We keep our lead and go into the next round!
By playing chun: 7. Deal into south with no doras - 1300 points. 8. Deal into south with 2 north tiles - This becomes a 40fu 3han hand which turns out to be 5200 points. 9. Double ron - Probably the only thing that made me use up my thinking time. If south had the other chun tile, he could also play riichi with a single wait on chun as his only chance to win the round. Unlikely, but still a possibility. 10. Nothing happens - Very unlikely lol.
With north and west not playing betaori, I though that a majority of the times, 2nd or 3rd place will gain on us a significant amount if I played betaori. By playing the chun, I though there would be about a 95% or so chance i will deal in with a maximum of 5200 with at least 50% of it being only 1300 points. With this, I believe chun was the best play here.
Also for those who didn't know, tiles that are 1 or 2 above and below from the riichi tile are consider very dangerous tiles to play. In this example, 4p 7p would be considered bad tiles to play due to the 556p pattern. There is also the 554p pattern but the 3p has already been played here.
One thing to add is that the guy is a 5 dan, you generally don't get to tokujou by messing around. By opening his hand up to this extent, he is more likely than not signalling for the sashikomi. He's effectively saying, hey, look at my hand, I hope you have this tile so we can help each other out. If he had absolutely nothing, he wouldn't deal the 1m dora into a riichi.
Edit: Sorry for double post, was checking the backlog.
If I had this hand in an actual game, I probably would discard the Chun. But in reality I am clueless. Maybe the plan is open tanyao if the next couple of tiles work out that way...
If I declare riichi and someone calls my discard for a kan, then wins off the rinshan draw, do I pay the 1000? In other words: Is the riichi payment made before the next regular draw or before any next draw?
Discard the north. Its not likely to speed up anyone and aim for metapin if it gets there. Hang on to the chun till either your hand gets a lot better in the next two draws or someone else deals one. If you get useless but safe tiles in the next two draws and no chun is felt keep it for potential yakuhai. Basically this is a flexible hand that should I think you should play closed to give you a better chance to either get to metapin or easily betori. You should be playing to keep your lead but no need to g o overboard on defense.
You should hide player's hands when doing "what to discard" puzzle I would've discard Chun regardless though. Go with whatever is most efficient for riichi.
On March 19 2014 09:10 Hesmyrr wrote: What do you do with this hand?
I fold immediately here. Discard the Dora first as it will never be safer to do so. I would then see what my draws brought me. If you get lucky you can try to get a half flush but I would play with defense as my first priority all the way. You are in first if only by a little bit but going crazy for the Yakima is a sure path to the bottom.
Ps. If your name is akagi go for 13 orphans and make smug comments about the flow, cowardly plays etc.
Looks like I need to tamper down my aggression down a little. I just went for half suit immediately. Even if the draws don't favour me, I thought at least half of those honour tiles would have become an excellent "safe tile".
I actually had a temporary burst of madness and considered Nagashi mangan (thankfully abandoned before first discard) For some reason that yaku is one of my favourites.
there's nothing wrong with that, with terrible starting hands like this one, it's fine to "force value" onto the hand and if your first several draws don't advance you toward your final shape, the hand's not worth pushing and you can fold.
On March 21 2014 10:54 KyuuSC wrote: No, if you move the mouse cursor right over that middle area -- you'll see the point differences between you and everyone else.
On March 21 2014 10:54 KyuuSC wrote: No, if you move the mouse cursor right over that middle area -- you'll see the point differences between you and everyone else.
Hundreds of games and I never noticed...
hahahaha One of the reasons I like tenhou premium
busy enough calculating my hand, other people hand, and remaining tiles... no time to calculate point differences ;_;
Can I ask something that I was never brave enough to try? If you turn both autowin and autopass on, do you still call ron if the opponent deals in the winning tile?
On November 23 2013 04:13 spinesheath wrote: Leftmost is auto-win (自動和了), then auto-discard aka tsumokiri (ツモ切り), then ignore callable tiles (嗚かない), and finally color settings (色) and sound (音).
Nah, it's completely valid to have autowin and autopass/autodiscard on at the same time. It's like riichi, just damaten. If you have a closed damaten hand, you wouldn't want to call anything. Autodiscard for when you can't possibly improve your hand and won't defend either, like a hadaka tanki wait or some nonsense like that.
There's no way I can maintain those placement ratios in the long run, so just riding the wave while I can
The only advice I have is to just keep playing and improving your situational judgement. You should always be considering the point and round situation and the shape and value of your hand, and possible value of your opponents' hands when making decisions to attack/defend, riichi/damaten, call/pass etc... This is the most difficult thing to master, and you just have to learn for yourself through experience.
Dang that really is impressive :O How often and how long have you played? Or maybe the answer might leave me feeling depressed lol
I haven't been playing for such a long time, I think I forgot all the game sense I somehow collected ;_; Hopefully they'll come back after a few trips down memory lane
Maybe we can have another TL Tenhou game Did anyone arrange another game after that one time we played?
Will be hanging around for eight hours or so, though I will probably go afk for around hour or more intermittently. I'll wait around #tltenhou so if anyone have time and are interested for another TL game, drop in!
If you fail hard enough, you will end up winning !
Explanation: If all your discards are honors (winds + colors) and terminals (1's & 9's) and no one takes any of your discards and you don't open your hand by the end of a round, you win 8k. Its pretty much a sympathy win, since you probably just discarded self draw yakuman hand ;_;
I scored my very first yakuman! In a game against human opponents, that is. Started at 8 tiles and drew the 9th on my first draw. Pulled the rest in very quickly. Actually, now that I recap that game, I drew a tile towards Kokushi every. single. turn.
My opponent was very hesitant to deal that tile in. And rightfully so.
By the way, I called it, discarded the 7s and drew the Hatsu shortly after. Ended up 2nd place overall anyways, so it really didn't make much of a difference.
On July 19 2014 09:10 JSH wrote: well might as well, since you already called three times
ALL IN
Wait wouldn't that be Ryuuiisou?
I had a shot (well in reality I didn't, but I couldn't know that) at Ryuuiisou if I didn't call the 5s. The 5s isn't all green. I went for 2700 points instead of 32000 points.
Maybe we should declare a time when we "normally" have time to play. Setting up a regular play time every X days/weeks seems a bit far fetched right now. But if people know a match is more likely at a certain time, they might be able to set up their own schedule so they can be there.
The rule is called Sekinin barai. Being responsible for the 3rd of 3 sangenpai pons or the 4th of 4 kazehai pons means you have to pay. Full amount if tsumo, half if ron.
That's a beautiful set of pons, haku hatsu chun all in order, all from the same (stupid) opponent. What was north's hand?
Currently I do not have any fixed schedule at the moment, unlikely the situation will change until September. So I won't be of any help unless others make their availability known.
Also wtf. That dragon dealer guy is better than me T_T
On August 04 2014 03:07 Hesmyrr wrote: At least it's unlikely for one to get tsumo'd to the last. I'd take yakuman tsumo over haneman direct hit any day.
But that's exactly what a majority of my last places come from. Everyone else tsumoing while I can't get anything together. The next biggest contributor is people declaring riichi after my own riichi.
Well ok, that's what it feels like anyways.
The sweetest hand I've had in a long time:
Needless to say, I still only managed to score second place, without dealing into anthing.
Aaaand another 2nd place. I was in first by about 8000, then in the very last hand this dude goes Ippatsu Tsumo in turn 4 for 7700. I'm at precisely 5% first place ratio this month with 1-7-10-2 placings...
Got demoted too. What a run. Multiple matches where I couldn't even win a single hand.
Is tonight full moon? So much haitei raoyou. I came across, no joke, about six of them during this play session. At least half of them were from me so I don't really mind
I'm here, though I have very little idea what is going on. Tell me if you guys are still available, will hang around for a bit before going back to the main lobby.
And it pained me to purposely pass ron and tsumo to use Koromo's Haitei Raoyou lol
I'd say extra 1 han is not worth the risk of other players winning before your last tile draw, notwithstanding the possibility that draw order could easily change around in a fly. Unless Koromo also has her power of preventing other players from doing anything, but that'd be overpowered lol.
Does anyone know where I can learn about the tile efficiency? I always went with gut so far instead of doing actual calculation but such discards can only carry you so far. There seem to be very little resource which teaches some rules like "If X, do Y (except in special circumstances)".
For example, what would you discard if you drew this hand from the very beginning?
As a pure tile eff. problem i would throw the 4 sou. you already have a pair and are 1 shanten, you have 16 tiles that make you tempai. that said i could see arguments for throwing a 9 sou and going for tanyao as well, but it is less efficient.
The tile efficiency guides in the links spinesheath posted earlier do talk about some common situations. Tenhou has a discard efficiency calculator at http://tenhou.net/2/. Just keep in mind that it does not take into account other tiles you can see on the table and how other people discard (e.g., honors and terminals are more likely to be discarded than middle tiles). So you can use it as a starting point then use your own calculation/estimate to see what the best discard would be.
The problem with tile efficiency is that you typically only ever look 1 discard ahead. The seemingly best discard is the one that leaves you with the largest number of potential draws that advance your hand. But then you draw such a tile and are left with a very poor hand. Much like a chiitoitsu hand advances fast at the beginning but getting the last tile to tenpai is super slow and then you're stuck with a 3 tile wait at best. Ideally you would look many draws ahead, but I certainly am not very good at that either.
That particular hand though is super obvious if all you want is speed, there is no viable option other than discarding 4s. If you wanted more value you'd probably tackle the 9s and hope to draw 3m 7m. And if this was your starting hand, I'd say it's a good idea to aim for a higher value.
Thanks for all the helpful response! I brought up that hand because it represented a case where I strongly suspect my instinct fails; my immediate impulse is to discard the 2 man (!).
I can even pin-point the reason why I would want to do so in spite of there being an obvious choice. I usually make my hands in a way, you could call it a "rule" of mine, to avoid single waits if possible - I also read somewhere to avoid kanchan shape since it is inferior. For example, in the case where I have to discard something from 2446 shape, I prioritize 446 shape over 246 shape. The problem is that this instinct originated from the cursory knowledge from others, so I lack true understanding and struggle to see which case would be exceptions. In the example I presented, I am 1-shanten and also possess 344 sou - shape which I know 4 sou discard is superior - which encourage keeping the kanchan shape. I had several cases where my premature disposal of kanchan shape backfired, so posted above to re-evaluate my playing habit because why struggle over it alone when I can easily ask for opinion of others?
The 246 shape is pretty good to keep At first it might not look so, but if you draw 2 3 4 5 6 AND 7, it'll be pretty useful With 3 5 7 being more "useful" ones
And the single waits aren't that bad, you can always not riichi and wait for a draw to make it a double wait
Also, it's good to have a change of mindset I always thought tiles as useless or good
But it's better to think: "how can this tile help me"
This I felt was one of the best change of mind I had in determining what to discard
The 246 shape is pretty good to keep At first it might not look so, but if you draw 2 3 4 5 6 AND 7, it'll be pretty useful With 3 5 7 being more "useful" ones
Yeah, after you think about the matter what's not immediately obvious becomes noticeable. I guess that's why people make mistakes on heat of the moment though.
The way you put it is really illuminating as well. I found the observation from others tend to profoundly affect my game surprisingly often - I used to love nagashi mangan and sometimes attempted it when my hand was crap, but all it took was random comment from someone here that it's a missed kokushi musou and I never go for it anymore.
When you keep a kanchan shape, you should pay attention to your discards around that shape. Since you ideally want to upgrade it to a ryanmen shape, you have to make sure that you don't put yourself into furiten by doing so. If you discarded a 9 early in the game and end up with a 357 shape that you want to discard a tile from, discard the 7. Now you can still draw a 2 and be happy, otherwise you'd be stuck with 57.
Finally managed to return to the upperdan lobby after my demotion about month ago.
I should fare well after having gotten over the difficult part. If you get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th place respectively while attempting 3dan -> 4dan it yields net zero pts while doing so while attempting 4d -> 5d yields +15 pts. So the road to the latter is bound to be easier, right?
Im a few losses away from 4 dan LOL. I think I picked up a huge leak in my game when I hit 6dan and got a bit overconfident. Im still having trouble finding whats wrong with my play. Im doing sooo bad.
I actually didn't expect anyone to be tenpai, let along two. North was the only player that I thought would be closest to tenpai due to the dora 6s discard. He discarded the 4p previously though so my 7p discard is quite safe vs his non riichi hand. I decided to hold onto the 6p since due to the lack of 45p on the board and there was no need to be greedy with my current position and at this stage of the game,
I'm not too sure that's the best way to play the game. Personally, I like to base how close people are to tenpai by watching their discards. In this round, both east and south are unlikely to have tenpai hands due to their lack of middle tile discards (3-7) so I just need to play around north. I can be wrong but this read is usually fairly accurate. South's last 5p play may have shown that hes in tenpai but I was too focused on North and did not make the connection there.
If I was not houtei or even with 2-3 draws remaining, I would have definitely discarded any tile I draw except for the red 5p (if he hasn't discarded the 2p yet). The 67s discards he made indicates he is unlikely to have any other 6s and two red doras are visible to us. With this information, we can assume his had to be fairly weak. IMO the reward of tenpai is much greater than the risk of feeding into his hand if he had a hand in tenpai.
Being houtei makes it a bit riskier cause of the extra yaku and a wider range of hands that it can hit, and that was enough for me to decide it was not worth the risk to play the tile at this stage of the game.
Sure, I try to guess at when people are in tenpai or not, but it's still just that, a guess You can deduce tiles sure and maybe even pretty accurately, but you just can't know for sure
Sure he got lucky (sort of) but those sorts of things can happen
From the point totals and seat positions, I think giving up might be better option Like you said, no point in being greedy with your current position and situation So why risk it at all?
Like I read your explanation on north hand being weak but what about the others? You can't be sure they are not in tenpai nor their hands being weak
Its true that those types of hands can occur and I we can never be sure what they have with the information we have, but from experience, they do not happen very often. For me, after weighing the risk and reward, I feel that I'm usually ahead a lot of times, and that a lot of times I would be in an okay spot of I do end up feeding. The difference with houtei is that the risk is more than doubled and that was just enough to change my decision and bail at the very last minute.
I after saying this, I'll need to rephrase what I say earlier. There's no need to be too greedy with my current hand and position. It's fine to be greedy as long as you have assessed the current situation as this is what gets you the edge in the upper lobby. Sometimes things do not work out, but the goal is that you've gained more overall from taking these risks.
Yes I think with tile efficiency and never feed mentality, it can still get you a long way. In the lower lobby, it is perfectly fine to play efficient and safe and that's the same strategy I got up to the upper lobby. It's just that once you get there, everyone plays just as well in those areas and in order to beat them you'll need something else.
I wouldn't really be able to tell you in all honestly what to do with that hand, already having seen that of the opponents. I probably would have folded though since I generally tend to be really cowardly in most scenarios that threaten the possibility of you becoming the last.
what is this guy doing...
Lol, that must have been misclick trying to press 9 sou right? I also occasionally have cases like that, immediately have to fold immediately after such mistake to maintain "peace of mind" for remaining rounds.
I have been having a run of good games at the moment, allowing me to reach 5 Dan earlier than expected
I have been having a run of good games at the moment, allowing me to reach 5 Dan earlier than expected
\o/
Also, I'm almost 4Dan, just need 120 more points!
Except my Rating is really bad So I wouldn't be able to join the upper room anyways (1671) It was close to 1800 before I took that dive bomb back from 3dan to 1Dan
I think there's no right or wrong moves here. You can discard 6p and riichi, discard 6p and not riichi, or play it safe. All these plays look fine to me. If I was to pick, I would yolo riichi all day.
BTW is anyone having issue with the browser client recording replays? I havnt been able to record a game since the 10th of September :/
...What is that background? Looks like some cute thing pierced in the face by the red dagger. Also Rhaegar99 is right, if this is normal mahjong I'd riichi (or maybe even damaten) but since Tenhou is all about last place avoidal there is strpng argument for folding as well.
Good, at least my decision matches with what higher ranked people would do. It still cost me 12000 points. I think I managed to pull myself back up to 3rd place.
I've been playing like idiot recently, blatant mistakes with severe consequences which are currently occurring in like 50% of my games. What the hell is wrong with me.
Well, back to 4 Dan with this game which I affectionately dub "Curse of 7 Sou". Never had such rotten luck with single particular tile before, though to be fair the dealer loss was definitely due to me being overly greedy.
I'm new to the forum here, and while this is my first post, my intent is not to do a drive-by. I hope to read up on Team Liquid's NA LCS successes in the future.
I have opened registrations to the 2015 World Amateur Mahjong League (Season 1): since there are definitely a few good players among you, I was hoping this might pique your interest to participate. Most of the information is on the main website, some of it is on the wiki and we're present on IRC as well.
Thanks for taking the effort to organize the league. I rarely visits Osamuko, so thanks for posting here also. I like the rules/format you have. There's nothing I would want to change, although I do have a few questions:
1. Will the dan ranking and power points ever get reset (e.g., at the start of every 3-month session)? 2. If they are not reset, are the winners determined based on their final cumulative ranking and power points, or only points obtained during that session? 3. How many power points are given for 1st, 2nd, etc. for each hanchan? I hope it's something like +75/+30/0/-105 (last place avoidance) and not +35/+5/-15/-25 plus score differences (aiming for first place).
A tip for those who have never used IRC before: it's essentially a public chat room. To join, go to http://www.rizon.net/chat, pick a nickname, put #osamuko as the "channels" and don't worry about "Auth" and "password."
P.S. There's someone with a 7-dan ranking on Tenhou? That's awesome! (edited) Just realized it's the same person who posted about reaching 6 dan last year here. Way to go man!
The point of this league was to provide an environment with controlled variables as much as possible, all while minimizing administrative overhead (because there is a fair amount). As such, it's basic non-ranked lobby rules and scores that apply.
1) Dan points and power levels are earned every season and are added cumulatively. Power levels work with the formula (1000 * #players_beat / (#players - 1)). These points are awarded at the end of a season, with 500 points necessary to earn a 2-dan rating, 1000 more for 3-dan, 2000 more for 4-dan, etc. The point is to show a record of who is strongest in online mahjong in the non-Asian community (although Asian players are also welcome). The next season will calculate a new score to add to previously-earned points. 2) I guess I answered most of that above, but just to be clear: while the above controls the point mechanism, fighting for ranking is what leads to promotions or demotions, in a simple thirds mechanism [promote, stay, demote]. To start, everyone is in Bronze, but there is a strong possibility of forming a Silver division as of Season 2 (so for the summer, officially to be decided by the end of Session 3 of 6). 3) Non-ranked lobby points, so yes, I believe that the net score from an oka-nashi, uma-nashi game would be affected by [+35, +5, -15, -25] (20P oka, 10P-20P uma). The penalties for 4th are lower but if you consistently rank 3rd, you will not end up with a good ranking either. While 4th place avoidance is definitely a good skill to have, the league's goal is not to measure how much non-Asians can play ranked Tenhou lobbies outside Tenhou lobbies.
The point of WAML is to show that we are capable to compete following mechanisms very similar to Japanese pro leagues (JPML, NPM Kyoukai, Mu, Saikouisen NPM, etc.), all while compensating for obvious things (geography, timezones, internet, and variable presence).
Interesting, I didn't expect people from outside of TL to stumble across this thread. While we're on the topic of interesting things, can someone explain this to me?
In other news, I recently managed to write my own tenhou.net "client", connect to it and play a match using an AI. Sadly the AI lost. I was so confident in my TsumokiriAi!
I also spotted a detail in the messages tenhou.net's server sends to its clients that could possibly be used to deduce information about your opponent's hands...
Thanks for the explanations, Trundle. Your point about scoring certainly makes sense. It's just that I feel that scoring system that encourages 4th-place avoidance makes the game interesting. With that said, I have never really played using the regular oka/uma system so that might actually be good also.
Nope, it's not the seed. If I had the seed at the start of a match I'd play like those girls in Saki.
Tenhou sends you XML nodes in TCP packets. Sometimes there's more than 1 node in a single packet. Usually a discard is immediately followed by a draw in the same packet: <F104/><W/>. But sometimes it's not, even if nobody calls a tile. I don't know yet if this is a reliable way to tell that someone can - or probably more reliably can not - call the current discard. Tenhou most likely screws with those packets a bit, but I don't know how much it does or even can.
I have most of the protocol sorted out too. I didn't dig too deep into the <PROF .../>, <RANKING .../>, <LN .../> and <PXR .../> messages yet though.
I see what you're talking about. Information about whether there is someone who can call the discarded tile is definitely leaked. This can be taken advantage (although perhaps less reliably) even without inspecting the packets since if someone can call then there will be a delay. This is simply the price we have to pay unless we're willing to wait for 5+ seconds every single turn. I do think Tenhou does randomly inserts artificial delay even when no one can call the discarded tile also.
The message that's difficult to decode would be the message when someone makes a call, e.g., "<N who="2" m="49167" />". That "m" field encodes the 3/4 tiles in a somewhat complicated way. I had to use a decompiler on the (premium) flash client to learn about this. Thankfully the code I get is easy to read, although I kinda got lazy and gave up when I see the code.
On January 27 2015 03:26 spinesheath wrote: Interesting, I didn't expect people from outside of TL to stumble across this thread. While we're on the topic of interesting things, can someone explain this to me? (image)
The forum is trolling you then. Be careful in the Freljord...
On January 27 2015 07:23 Benawii wrote: I see what you're talking about. Information about whether there is someone who can call the discarded tile is definitely leaked. This can be taken advantage (although perhaps less reliably) even without inspecting the packets since if someone can call then there will be a delay. This is simply the price we have to pay unless we're willing to wait for 5+ seconds every single turn. I do think Tenhou does randomly inserts artificial delay even when no one can call the discarded tile also.
The message that's difficult to decode would be the message when someone makes a call, e.g., "<N who="2" m="49167" />". That "m" field encodes the 3/4 tiles in a somewhat complicated way. I had to use a decompiler on the (premium) flash client to learn about this. Thankfully the code I get is easy to read, although I kinda got lazy and gave up when I see the code.
So I just wrote a random seed generator in order to write a local server to let my bots play on. For that I checked the length of the seed in a couple or replay files. Before I had estimated it to be about 1000 characters long. It's 3328 characters long, excluding the part before the comma. Geez. And that's only used to initialize a mersenne twister, which produces a random sequence, of which 288 values are taken and hashed using a SHA512 hash, and then the result of that is used to permute the tiles in the wall using a Fisher-Yates shuffle...
Does anyone happen to know which tile is auto-discarded if you call a pon or chii and fail to choose a discard in time? Normally if you fail to choose, tenhou will make you tsumokiri, but if you call a pon or chii you don't have a draw to discard. I'd assume it's either the lowest-indexed (1m comes first, then up to 9m, and so on) tile or a random tile just because I don't really see any reasonable choice. Actually lowest indexed might not even be a good idea because it gives away information out your hand.
On January 28 2015 01:55 spinesheath wrote: Does anyone happen to know which tile is auto-discarded if you call a pon or chii and fail to choose a discard in time?
Just tried this in test play (you know about it, right?), and it looks like the highest index tile that can be legally discarded is auto-discarded. I'm guessing in the case of kan the rinshan tile (replacement tile) is auto-discarded.
But anyway, you don't need to make your local server behave exactly the same as Tenhou's server, right? Unless you are planning to have Tenhou's client connect to it...
Well, if I'm planning on having a couple of bots learn while playing against each other on a much faster environment before I let them loose on tenhou.net, I should emulate tenhou.net closely. Then again I obviously wouldn't want my bots to fail to choose a discard. It's just something I'd have to implement one way or another, so why not the same way as tenhou does it?
And yeah, I know of test play. I wouldn't have thought of trying it there though, and don't care about it too much in general. I don't even know if test play connects to the server or is just a local game against TsumokiriAIs.
Test play is still server-based, although some messages like computer's discards may be bunched up and sent at the same time.
Will you start implementing actual AI soon, or do you still need other stuff implemented first? I'm looking forward to seeing whatever you end up making.
On January 28 2015 00:06 JSH wrote: Cool! Can anyone join or do you have to be a certain rank?
The base requirement is a Tenhou.net 1-dan rating. While there are exceptions made to this rule (me, for one, a few others), it is not something suitable for total beginners (see the "what's a yaku" posts on reddit) nor for people who blindly play with no strategy or tactics. It's not meant to be rude to others, it's just that riichi mahjong itself has that level of complexity. A league with ponitsu-type players or that can only aim for speed (at the expense of ever making a hand worth more than 2600) will not be enjoyable for others; and HK-style players ignoring mentanpin-based hands (both offensively and defensively) will lead to a similar conclusion: if they are singled out, it's the equivalent of feeding the person on the right, handicapping the other two players at that table.
I did say that I would administer a pro test for those that have no record online, but i've been fairly lenient in letting people think and reason out the answer to the question(s).
On January 28 2015 07:24 Benawii wrote: Test play is still server-based, although some messages like computer's discards may be bunched up and sent at the same time.
Will you start implementing actual AI soon, or do you still need other stuff implemented first? I'm looking forward to seeing whatever you end up making.
Depends on how much motivation I can muster after work. It's been going well recently, but you never know. Things I want to do first is finish up that local server and then write a gui so I can actually watch my bot play rather than read a series of message logs. Then I've got to reimplement my shanten counting algorithm since that is the most basic skill an AI will need. In the mean time I could hack up an AI that accepts a victory if presented one (aka tenhou/chiihou hands). chiitoitsu/kokushi AIs would also be easy to implement.
So yeah, could take a couple of weeks. I'm not hacking some quick and dirty code either (only temporarily), I make it a point to write very high quality code in this project.
Hi spinesheath, a friend linked me to this thread just now. What you have so far is pretty cool, so I thought maybe the work I have done before on this could be of help to you. I haven't really done much experimenting in the past years, but I have a lot of documentation and some old projects similar to what you've done (AI and so on). You can see some examples in these links:
Some of the info sits behind the login of http://arcturus.su/tenhou/prot/ - so drop me a line if you're interested. The rest I haven't uploaded or is in my head... Email (bps at arcturus.su) is better than PM since I just made an account here to post this, so I probably won't check much.
Actually it's a bit unhelpful giving the mean position... but anyway, it wasn't too bad. It was actually far better than this, but there was a bug that made it very often disconnect which I never bothered to address. So it lost a lot of games unnecessarily. But if memory serves well, it got to at least 3dan and had a rate of about 1700. The AI was really stupid too, so I think there's a lot of room for improvement.
And just for fun, there's also the more successful incarnation, which got to "tenhoui" rank (天鳳位 R3083) within 24 hours...
Interesting. I'm by no means trying to exploit tenhou, but still there's some things I'd like to hear some details about.
In one link you write that tenhou doesn't do anything if you don't send a discard but keep sending <Z/>. Is this still the case? I would assume tenhou would just time out your turn after a while...
The new wall generation algorithm is based on a seed that is many orders of magnitude larger than necessary to prevent predictions based on the draws seen so far. I'm pretty sure there's no way to predict the wall unless you have the seed or there is a major flaw in SHA512.
So mittens was actually an AI that played regular games? I'd be very interested in its inner workings; decision making process and such.
Also if you have any documentation on the protocol outside of just normal matches, I'd be happy if you just sent me some of that. Things like the LN, PXR and RANKING tag, and just now I noticed there's a nintei attribute in the HELO tag (after a match it seems) that I had never seen before...
Hi Alvin. I greatly appreciate all the work you have done on your site. The recent update to the ranking tool is quite nice also. Do you know if there is some way to find out the dan ranking of a Tenhou account? This was the first information I was looking for when I first tried using your ranking tool. If it's not available anywhere else, would it be possible to add this to your ranking tool? With the information it is already displaying I suppose it shouldn't increase the load on the server too much.
On February 01 2015 06:30 Benawii wrote: Hi Alvin. I greatly appreciate all the work you have done on your site. The recent update to the ranking tool is quite nice also. Do you know if there is some way to find out the dan ranking of a Tenhou account? This was the first information I was looking for when I first tried using your ranking tool. If it's not available anywhere else, would it be possible to add this to your ranking tool? With the information it is already displaying I suppose it shouldn't increase the load on the server too much.
Done! You can see the details in the most recent news post (2015-02-01) here:
On February 01 2015 06:30 Benawii wrote: Hi Alvin. I greatly appreciate all the work you have done on your site. The recent update to the ranking tool is quite nice also. Do you know if there is some way to find out the dan ranking of a Tenhou account? This was the first information I was looking for when I first tried using your ranking tool. If it's not available anywhere else, would it be possible to add this to your ranking tool? With the information it is already displaying I suppose it shouldn't increase the load on the server too much.
Done! You can see the details in the most recent news post (2015-02-01) here:
On February 03 2015 13:38 Hesmyrr wrote: Wow, this thread exploded in the past few weeks. For the WAML, what do I use for the country - my citizenship or the current place of residence?
Being from Canada, the organization prides itself in recognizing your right to identify however you wish, or even outright lie. We have a Vietnamese player living in Japan who signed up as a player from the Holy See (Vatican).
Given that this is the internet, I can't be bothered to check the truth for anyone. Were it a "bit" more serious, I would still allow people to identify with whatever country they can naturally identify with, or to pick one if they have multiple options. Mind you, if I were to draw a line, I wouldn't allow "Boston Irish" to choose Ireland or third-generation Asian immigrants to pick China/Japan/Iran/whatever. As long as you don't change every 3 months, I'm cool with it.
Do you guys usually try to deny ippatsu when someone riichi near the end of the round (and you have enough safe tiles)? It's just that the thought never crossed my mind, so I thought it was interesting when it happened to me.
North called chii on my discard and discarded 1p. East then discarded 1s. At first I was unhappy that I couldn't get ippatsu, but thinking back, if North didn't call, I wouldn't have won that hand, so I guess it's okay.
On February 05 2015 18:32 Benawii wrote: Do you guys usually try to deny ippatsu when someone riichi near the end of the round (and you have enough safe tiles)? It's just that the thought never crossed my mind, so I thought it was interesting when it happen to me.
North called chii on my discard and discarded 1p. East then discarded 1s. At first I was kind of angry that I couldn't get ippatsu, but thinking back, if North didn't call, I wouldn't have won that hand, so I guess it's okay.
Whether I have the presence of mind when the situation arises is questionable. But ideally you'd first assess what the result of an ippatsu would be. It might be good for you. It might be bad for you.
In your case it seems like an easy decision because a big win from you would have threatened north's position.
Performing terribly recently, I might drop down to 3 dan before WAML at this rate. I think it's because I am unconsciously playing more aggressive to "recover" the points lost in this slump, which in turn puts me at greater risk of 4th place, yada yada one of those common negative feedbacks which are present all the games that need mental fortitude to play well.
Yeah I've been having hard time playing multiple games "Bad luck and good luck" should balance out, but when that bad hand happens, I get really discouraged So I end up playing only 1 or 2 at a time
It really is hard to be strong mentally in this game Maybe I'm viewing the game all wrong hmm
On February 23 2015 09:08 JSH wrote: It really is hard to be strong mentally in this game Maybe I'm viewing the game all wrong hmm
Only winning about 1 in 4 matches can be really rough. Hands where you literally couldn't have won are rough. You have to find satisfaction in aspects of the game other than winning. Which seems especially hard if you have a starcraft background.
Yeah, with how the points work I'm happy as long as I get 3rd and above, but it's absolutely soul-crushing when you get 4th place because you know it's going to be so hard to recover from > 4 dan.
Not sure what I should've done @ 0:22 I'm guessing I should've just dropped 5s or the 1p, and stuck with the original plan for sanshoku? I dunno if it was "smart play" I think I was just trying to maximize chances for number of outs? Like 3m only wait wouldn't be too good
And then I just tilted at the end rip
edit: Looking back I think I should've dropped the 5s and kept the 3p earlier?
1234 is a bit of a crappy combo to improve on. It does look nice, but in reality, you only benefit from a 3p or 5p draw. If you pick up a 2p, your gonna have a crap wait, or fall further behind by discarding it. You want to avoid these types of situations if you can. Compare this to the 2345s run. 1s, 3s, 4s, 6s draws all improve your hand and you can't end up with those single end waits. So in this scenario, it should be a 1p discard.
The sanshoku here also allows you to open your hand AND since it's an middle wait, you also do not have to worry about fuuriten. This is a very good for you to make a quick win, especially when your already in the lead.
As for the 5s/3p decision, both shapes have the same number of outs. But since there's already four s tiles discarded (that help improve the shape), discarding the 5s will give the your hand more outs to improve.
On March 09 2015 22:59 Rhaegar99 wrote: 1234 is a bit of a crappy combo to improve on.
It's pretty much just a single 4 (and a random completed shuntsu). 2 less tiles to draw around the 4, but it's more likely to form a pair than a lone 4.
Pretty much what Rhaegar said. You're more likely to get sanshoku after discarding 1p than get ittsuu after discarding something else (2-shanten vs. 1-shanten).
With regard to 3p vs 5s, I ran it through my AI (designed to play against tsumokiri bots) in two setups: a) going for a quick win, and b) (winning and ) maximizing expected hand score. Both setups give 5s as the definitive answer, even when I remove all the sousu discards and keep the 58p discards. I'm not sure why though. I would expect 3p to be a better discard since otherwise we could end up with 34 67p competing for the same 5p. Maybe my program is just wrong.
Edit: I think I know why. It depends on whether you will riichi later on if you can, and how much you are penalized for losing that riichi stick. If I play around with these settings I do get 3p as the answer sometimes.
I am not too sure what the Japanese terms are for them but I am only missing the yakuman where you start as East (ouya?), with 14 tiles and that is already a completed hand. I have already gotten one where you reach in turn 1 and ippatsu(?). I have also yet to win with pons of all four winds.
Something that happened as I was checking on this thread. Lucky day today haha.
Edit: I forgot to ask, but does Tenhou allow double/triple yakumans?
The chance of getting one of each yakuman except for tenhou and daisuushi is in the range of 10^-20. Give or take a couple of digits. What the hell have you been doing to get that many?
Though from the screenshots one might imagine that you've been bruteforcing yakuman hands at low ranks, abusing the bad tile efficiency and thus lack of speed of bad players? That probably changes the odds a great deal, considering how often I've been close to a yakuman just before someone won a hand.
Thats a helpful link, thanks. Those two are the only yakuman I have gotten from excessive dora/uradora so far. All the others have pretty much been close hands. I guess its probably just luck. My luckiest is probably the closed 1112345678999 sumo hand.
Also I can't read japanese and my friends told me to click the third button down from the right side after going to http://tenhou.net/0/ , so thats the only one I play. I have no idea what the last paragraph of your post means.
I am not sure what any of the other buttons do haha.
Well, I don't have to ask when I can just check: http://arcturus.su/tenhou/ranking/ranking.pl?name=Pocom You played 576 matches on tenhou, that's about 5000 hands. If those yakuman odds did apply for your playing field, then no amount of luck in the world would ever get you that many yakuman hands. I can also see that you've been playing on Shodan rank and below, which would explain why you have time to finish hands that would otherwise be out of reach because your opponents would just win before you.
Playing to get all types of yakuman is a valid way to play, if that's what you enjoy. Although I have to say you are missing out the strategy depth that riichi mahjong has to offer.
On March 14 2015 06:08 spinesheath wrote: The chance of getting one of each yakuman except for tenhou and daisuushi is in the range of 10^-20. Give or take a couple of digits.
10^-20? According to the page you link, tsuuiisou for example has 0.008% chance of occurring. That's in the order of 10^-4 isn't it? I think their sample size is too small to accurately capture the probability of the rare yakumans though.
On March 15 2015 05:11 Benawii wrote: Playing to get all types of yakuman is a valid way to play, if that's what you enjoy. Although I have to say you are missing out the strategy depth that riichi mahjong has to offer.
On March 14 2015 06:08 spinesheath wrote: The chance of getting one of each yakuman except for tenhou and daisuushi is in the range of 10^-20. Give or take a couple of digits.
10^-20? According to the page you link, tsuuiisou for example has 0.008% chance of occurring. That's in the order of 10^-4 isn't it? I think their sample size is too small to accurately capture the probability of the rare yakumans though.
Not to get one of them, but one of each of them except for tenhou and daisuushi. Also of course I don't know exactly how precise those values are, but I am pretty certain that there are enough games played on tenhou to provide a reasonable sample size if those were the samples. And even if those odds were off by several orders of magnitude, you still wouldn't be able get all but 2 yakuman against a high ranked competition in 5000 hands.
Played a couple of games yesterday. I'm not really good anymore (3-3-1-1). Too bad I lost interest after they deleted my 3rd dan account because of inactivity (wasn't even a year -.-).
I remember why I stopped playing Mahjong again. I can't deal with too much bad luck (1-1-2-1). Drop tile, get same tile again, three times in one round. Drop dora, because it's not worth it at that point, get dora next draw -> drop it again...2 draws later I get my third dora (one was already out). Fuck this.
On March 31 2015 06:10 Lucumo wrote: I remember why I stopped playing Mahjong again. I can't deal with too much bad luck (1-1-2-1). Drop tile, get same tile again, three times in one round. Drop dora, because it's not worth it at that point, get dora next draw -> drop it again...2 draws later I get my third dora (one was already out). Fuck this.
Same here.... I'm not mentally strong enough to go on. Although I might log on just so I don't lose my account.
Ive played a few games of 3p before and made it all the way to 4dan. 3p has super high variance and is super frustrating to play for me lol. It is a nice change of pace to play from time to time though.
On March 31 2015 06:10 Lucumo wrote: I remember why I stopped playing Mahjong again. I can't deal with too much bad luck (1-1-2-1). Drop tile, get same tile again, three times in one round. Drop dora, because it's not worth it at that point, get dora next draw -> drop it again...2 draws later I get my third dora (one was already out). Fuck this.
Same here.... I'm not mentally strong enough to go on. Although I might log on just so I don't lose my account.
Yep, first game first, then fourth because while in riichi I discard one of two tiles another player needed to win (he riichi'ed after me). Lose 16k points because of that. Pretty much game over at this point. Almost got daisangen the next round but the same player ruined it for me because he went for kokushi musou. He even drew the other tile I needed to win to complete at least shousangen but he kept it and discarded a different tile which allowed the player behind him to win.
On March 31 2015 06:10 Lucumo wrote: I remember why I stopped playing Mahjong again. I can't deal with too much bad luck (1-1-2-1). Drop tile, get same tile again, three times in one round. Drop dora, because it's not worth it at that point, get dora next draw -> drop it again...2 draws later I get my third dora (one was already out). Fuck this.
Same here.... I'm not mentally strong enough to go on. Although I might log on just so I don't lose my account.
Yep, first game first, then fourth because while in riichi I discard one of two tiles another player needed to win (he riichi'ed after me). Lose 16k points because of that. Pretty much game over at this point. Almost got daisangen the next round but the same player ruined it for me because he went for kokushi musou. He even drew the other tile I needed to win to complete at least shousangen but he kept it and discarded a different tile which allowed the player behind him to win.
That's part of the appeal. You will lose some matches without much of a chance. But that just means you'll have to be that much better at converting the opportunities you are presented. And at recognizing opportunities. While defending against 3 people. Both by not dealing in and by pressuring them with fast hands.
On March 31 2015 06:10 Lucumo wrote: I remember why I stopped playing Mahjong again. I can't deal with too much bad luck (1-1-2-1). Drop tile, get same tile again, three times in one round. Drop dora, because it's not worth it at that point, get dora next draw -> drop it again...2 draws later I get my third dora (one was already out). Fuck this.
Same here.... I'm not mentally strong enough to go on. Although I might log on just so I don't lose my account.
Yep, first game first, then fourth because while in riichi I discard one of two tiles another player needed to win (he riichi'ed after me). Lose 16k points because of that. Pretty much game over at this point. Almost got daisangen the next round but the same player ruined it for me because he went for kokushi musou. He even drew the other tile I needed to win to complete at least shousangen but he kept it and discarded a different tile which allowed the player behind him to win.
That's part of the appeal. You will lose some matches without much of a chance. But that just means you'll have to be that much better at converting the opportunities you are presented. And at recognizing opportunities. While defending against 3 people. Both by not dealing in and by pressuring them with fast hands.
Nah. For example, I've lost all the games I riichi'ed...not because the opponents were good, they just were lucky not to deal any winning tiles and drawing everything alright. Like, I riichi'ed after the second tile, had 8 outs and did lose because they did whatever, not playing safe at all. Before the last round, I was last at 21500 even though I never lost. I finally won one round then and got first, but still...
/edit: Ended day with 6-0-1-3 (last game loss of course) sigh
That was the final round. Only 1 out of 6 tiles I needed were even in the game at that moment
On March 31 2015 06:10 Lucumo wrote: I remember why I stopped playing Mahjong again. I can't deal with too much bad luck (1-1-2-1). Drop tile, get same tile again, three times in one round. Drop dora, because it's not worth it at that point, get dora next draw -> drop it again...2 draws later I get my third dora (one was already out). Fuck this.
Same here.... I'm not mentally strong enough to go on. Although I might log on just so I don't lose my account.
Yep, first game first, then fourth because while in riichi I discard one of two tiles another player needed to win (he riichi'ed after me). Lose 16k points because of that. Pretty much game over at this point. Almost got daisangen the next round but the same player ruined it for me because he went for kokushi musou. He even drew the other tile I needed to win to complete at least shousangen but he kept it and discarded a different tile which allowed the player behind him to win.
That's part of the appeal. You will lose some matches without much of a chance. But that just means you'll have to be that much better at converting the opportunities you are presented. And at recognizing opportunities. While defending against 3 people. Both by not dealing in and by pressuring them with fast hands.
Nah. For example, I've lost all the games I riichi'ed...not because the opponents were good, they just were lucky not to deal any winning tiles and drawing everything alright. Like, I riichi'ed after the second tile, had 8 outs and did lose because they did whatever, not playing safe at all. Before the last round, I was last at 21500 even though I never lost. I finally won one round then and got first, but still...
/edit: Ended day with 6-0-1-3 (last game loss of course) sigh
That was the final round. Only 1 out of 6 tiles I needed were even in the game at that moment
You place first 60% of your matches and end the day with a disappointed sigh? That's... odd.
I've had matches where I didn't deal into any hands and finished the match with a negative score. Being last without dealing in is nothing special.
Your opponents aren't lucky just because they don't deal in. At the very least you shouldn't assume that. Always assume that your opponents know what they are doing. They have information you don't have.
Also just guessing from your screenshot, your posts and your stats I have the feeling that you're aiming for high value hands and toitsu hands too much.
I'm not writing this post for anyone in particular, most likely for beginners who know the rules of mahjong and are looking to get better on Tenhou:
Imo to climb the dans, you must have a solid pinfu game. Can't really get good at this game by calling everything you can :D. Keep your hand closed, aim for pinfus with doras and some other extra closed yaku if you can. While doing so, you'll learn about multi-sided waits and discard patterns (yours and that of others), and have your attention on defense. Try to aim for 3-sided waits instead of just 2-sided. Try not to riichi everything either, people get really good at betaori in higher ranks if you tell them out loud that you're in tenpai :D
On March 31 2015 06:10 Lucumo wrote: I remember why I stopped playing Mahjong again. I can't deal with too much bad luck (1-1-2-1). Drop tile, get same tile again, three times in one round. Drop dora, because it's not worth it at that point, get dora next draw -> drop it again...2 draws later I get my third dora (one was already out). Fuck this.
Same here.... I'm not mentally strong enough to go on. Although I might log on just so I don't lose my account.
Yep, first game first, then fourth because while in riichi I discard one of two tiles another player needed to win (he riichi'ed after me). Lose 16k points because of that. Pretty much game over at this point. Almost got daisangen the next round but the same player ruined it for me because he went for kokushi musou. He even drew the other tile I needed to win to complete at least shousangen but he kept it and discarded a different tile which allowed the player behind him to win.
That's part of the appeal. You will lose some matches without much of a chance. But that just means you'll have to be that much better at converting the opportunities you are presented. And at recognizing opportunities. While defending against 3 people. Both by not dealing in and by pressuring them with fast hands.
Nah. For example, I've lost all the games I riichi'ed...not because the opponents were good, they just were lucky not to deal any winning tiles and drawing everything alright. Like, I riichi'ed after the second tile, had 8 outs and did lose because they did whatever, not playing safe at all. Before the last round, I was last at 21500 even though I never lost. I finally won one round then and got first, but still...
/edit: Ended day with 6-0-1-3 (last game loss of course) sigh
That was the final round. Only 1 out of 6 tiles I needed were even in the game at that moment
You place first 60% of your matches and end the day with a disappointed sigh? That's... odd.
I've had matches where I didn't deal into any hands and finished the match with a negative score. Being last without dealing in is nothing special.
Your opponents aren't lucky just because they don't deal in. At the very least you shouldn't assume that. Always assume that your opponents know what they are doing. They have information you don't have.
Also just guessing from your screenshot, your posts and your stats I have the feeling that you're aiming for high value hands and toitsu hands too much.
I'm not aiming for high value hands. I play according to what's best and that usually works. Just finished my second match and placed 2nd twice in a row just because the 2nd overtook me in the last round both times. And it really doesn't seem that way. They just put incredibly dangerous tiles in for no reason (well, to have a good chance at still winning).
And the opponents aren't really good. I usually play when there are less than 20 people around (so half the players are dan players). But it's still bothersome to lose against those.
/edit: I'm not good but still better than those at least. 1900er or 1800er would probably wreck me.
It really sounds like you have the wrong attitude. You actually seem to do well currently, getting all those 1st and 2nd places. I'd be really happy about two 2nd places in a row. You seem dissatisfied.
On April 02 2015 04:39 spinesheath wrote: It really sounds like you have the wrong attitude. You actually seem to do well currently, getting all those 1st and 2nd places. I'd be really happy about two 2nd places in a row. You seem dissatisfied.
Certainly, currently I'm at 1-5-2-0. But you have to remember, this is the first lobby, I only play against dan half the time.
one of the reasons why i don't like the game as much as i used to is because the lucky BS hurts. In Hong Kong MJ (or most Chinese styles, I think), the tier scoring system makes it so that small hands don't hurt very much, even if people win with them quickly and frequently. In Japanese mj, though, someone can win before the 5th turn with a huge hand (mangan) that you have no idea about (since they're not showing anything; sometimes they dont even need to riichi). And it happens a little too often for my liking. I know that means players must take advantage of the times when that DOESN'T happen and play optimally then. But I just can't get over this part of the game. I guess you could say that the doras are the reasons for these powerful hands that can be completed quickly. It's still a great, interesting game overall, but it's starting to get irritating.
The huge hit from being 4th place also contributes to the rage, but that scoring system is somewhat understandable.
Yeah, I don't know how and why red dora sneaked into the modern mahjong, but I find them to be unnecessary editions that do not offer much strategic depth.
Fortunately(?) when I get last place I've always retrospectively identified bunch of detrimental mistakes, so I end up furious at myself instead of RNG. It's not really healthy to blame bad luck for all the poor performances anyhow, even if it might be true in some cases.
Lol, guy in last place with barely any points riichi'ed with one out (I have two out of three) and he tsumo's that one within one round. Something like this is just ridiculous. He still was last even with 12k gain (I stayed first and won the final round anyway).
It also took me till 4kyu to reach 1700+ -.-
/edit: Fuuuck, messed up getting a daisangen because I had auto-win enabled. I mean, I pon'ed both other dragon but still had two outs (both in the wall) in that regard (next to all the other outs which I sadly got one from). I'm bad.
I don't really see how hong kong mahjong is less luck dependant than japanese. You can shrug off small hands all you want, but that only means that the one who is lucky enough to score the most big hands will win.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe hong kong mahjong has a furiten rule. While that rule doesn't really prevent people from scoring big with dora, it is what lets you avoid last place reliably. That's also why you only get punished for placing last on tenhou. Getting first place requires luck. Avoiding last place much less so.
I find that furiten together with all those dora and riichi creates a very interesting setup where you always have to be very careful, but at the same time can't just stop pressuring your opponents.
On April 03 2015 03:04 Lucumo wrote: Lol, guy in last place with barely any points riichi'ed with one out (I have two out of three) and he tsumo's that one within one round. Something like this is just ridiculous. He still was last even with 12k gain (I stayed first and won the final round anyway).
It also took me till 4kyu to reach 1700+ -.-
He channeled his inner Hisa Takei. And no, that's not ridiculous (not necessarily at least). It happens.
Your rating is inflated in the lower ranks. It'll likely go down once you start playing people of similar skill level. I had a much higher rating shortly after switching to the lower dan room than now too, and I definitely improved since then.
On April 03 2015 03:04 Lucumo wrote: Lol, guy in last place with barely any points riichi'ed with one out (I have two out of three) and he tsumo's that one within one round. Something like this is just ridiculous. He still was last even with 12k gain (I stayed first and won the final round anyway).
It also took me till 4kyu to reach 1700+ -.-
He channeled his inner Hisa Takei. And no, that's not ridiculous (not necessarily at least). It happens.
Your rating is inflated in the lower ranks. It'll likely go down once you start playing people of similar skill level. I had a much higher rating shortly after switching to the lower dan room than now too, and I definitely improved since then.
To be fair, there were quite some tiles left + there was also the chance the other opponents had them.
Yep, I know. That's why I'm complaining it took this long. When I entered the dan ranks with my first, now deleted, account, I had close to 1800.
Guy on my left never dropped any useful tiles but everyone else did. I won the round afterwards but still only got 3rd in the end because the guy on my right feeded into them hardcore. So the other two were both 1500 in the lead. But finallly I'm not playing with too many dan guys anymore.
/edit: What's also annoying. When you have east wind and get tsumo'ed by another player. Was in the lead, final round, he did that after one turn (like always -.-) and I drop below 30k...in the end, 3rd place again. I didn't even lose a single round.
/edit2: Don't lose rounds and win maybe one for 8k or less and you end up like this, sigh.
And well, my rating has taken a dive. I still have mostly wins and my 4th place ratio is at .128, but...
After those downs, I went up again, to around 1750, then a bit down due to 3rd place. Did something else for a while and then this game:
First one ever for me. My initial hand was pretty good, I had two rather quick pons and then some lucky draws and wow. This is definitely my luckiest hand ever.
Hm, after you get good results, I always get the feeling that you get worse tiles. Two times 3rd in a row now. Also, it has logged 40 games now (no idea where those before those disappeared though). 14-9-13-4
Despite all your complaining you seem to be a rather lucky fellow.
I randomly dealt a 1s into a dealer's shou suu shii on turn 7 today and got close to ending up 4th in another match after one of my opponents survived a direct yakuman hit. I was tenpai in the last hand and drew the tile that would have dropped me to 4th place had I discarded it in order to stay tenpai (and have a shot at 2nd). Also 3 4th places today anyways.
Not really. I guess this one was thought to cancel out all the bad luck. And I won one round in that match anyway.
Ouch, that's harsh. Those early wins from other players are awful when they hit you. The worst is when people aren't declaring riichi (and have a fully concealed hand) and you can't make out what they are going for. Lost 12k and 16k today to these kinda things which always dropped me down to third place. Apart from those it's mostly fine though. I mean, all my third places pretty much come from those hits or the times when I can't get any hand all match long...like, when you reach two tenpais in two whole matches. Just look at the streak I posted above. It was the case there for several matches in a row.
And yep, playing safe is king...though, I sometimes tend to ignore it. I would categorize myself as a pretty aggressive player, but I'm at least not dumb enough to run into open fire.
A lot of these scenarios are very standard in mahjong. In any draw based game, there is always going to be some sort of element of luck involved, whether it be games like magic, hearthstone, or poker. You don't want to be too result orientated and should focus on playing a solid game. You also do not want to get too attached with your "deal in" rate. A good player will have a relatively low rate, but when it gets too low, it show that you are not taking appropriate risks to get the most value out of your hands. Don't get me wrong though, playing a defensive strategy is still very viable in the lower lobby, but aggressive is the way to go in the upper lobby. Keep it up the results and you might be there very soon.
On April 05 2015 13:51 Rhaegar99 wrote: A lot of these scenarios are very standard in mahjong. In any draw based game, there is always going to be some sort of element of luck involved, whether it be games like magic, hearthstone, or poker. You don't want to be too result orientated and should focus on playing a solid game. You also do not want to get too attached with your "deal in" rate. A good player will have a relatively low rate, but when it gets too low, it show that you are not taking appropriate risks to get the most value out of your hands. Don't get me wrong though, playing a defensive strategy is still very viable in the lower lobby, but aggressive is the way to go in the upper lobby. Keep it up the results and you might be there very soon.
You really should elaborate on the aggressive style.
In the lower lobby, by playing a defensive game, you play a game where you win the games you should be winning, and capitalize on the mistakes your opponents make. However, in a game where you are against solid players, you win games where you should be winning, and not win games where you shouldn't be winning. It gets to the point where you are getting breakeven results, and finding yourself in those games where you get tsumo'ed to death without dealing in. You may think you're unlucky but in reality this is one of the consequences of playing a defensive game. You let the game dictate who wins. If your drawing well, then you will probably win. But if your on the other end of the stick.. well then tough luck.
Not dealing in does not mean you are winning more. It means your are losing less. To win more, you need to win more. You need to be aggressive. You need to be the one dictating the flow of the game. Be less greedy and play hands that have a higher chance of winning. Try and play tanyao hands when you have gapped connectors/doubles. When someone opens their hand and you have a decent pinfu hand, consider playing a tanyao if given the opportunity. When multiple doras have been discarded, consider playing into their ippatsu riichi. Riichi those 1 tile draws where appropriate. If your coming last, do something about it now and not later. Play your hands as though you won't be getting any easy mangan hands.
Probably not a good explanation its the best I can do for now.
On April 02 2015 23:53 29 fps wrote: one of the reasons why i don't like the game as much as i used to is because the lucky BS hurts. In Hong Kong MJ (or most Chinese styles, I think), the tier scoring system makes it so that small hands don't hurt very much, even if people win with them quickly and frequently. In Japanese mj, though, someone can win before the 5th turn with a huge hand (mangan) that you have no idea about (since they're not showing anything; sometimes they dont even need to riichi). And it happens a little too often for my liking. I know that means players must take advantage of the times when that DOESN'T happen and play optimally then. But I just can't get over this part of the game. I guess you could say that the doras are the reasons for these powerful hands that can be completed quickly. It's still a great, interesting game overall, but it's starting to get irritating.
The huge hit from being 4th place also contributes to the rage, but that scoring system is somewhat understandable.
One thing I've done to mitigate this is to avoid playing with aka Dora (red fives). This already eliminates super lame Mangan hands :D
Edit: Hugely agree with Rhaegar. Not playing overly safe is the most delicate thing in mahjong riichi and also the one that makes the game interesting. Once you feel comfortable with defense that doesn't lead anywhere other than "not losing", the next step is to be aggressive and bold while protecting yourself from most big plays.
The first hand there and the comment on it caught my attention: 34789m 11337p 37s ww (notice it's 14 tiles)
From the article:
Discarding the isolated pin of 7 pin, 3 sou or 7 sou are common beginner discards. If it were me, I would bravely discard 1 pin or 3 pin.
Actually when it comes to effective tile loss, the loss of discarding 3 pin will only be the other two 3 pin. However if you discard 3 sou, the loss will be 124 sou, a total of 12 tiles. In a situation with a lack of mentsu, relying on the toitsu in your hand to complete your hand will often result in failure.
Here's why I find that interesting: Currently this hand needs to draw 3 tiles to be completed, for example 2m, 1p and 3p. If you discard the 1p or 3p, you will need 4 tiles. To compensate, you'll have 10 extra tiles you can draw and potentially a much better shape.
So the question is: When are discards like 3p better than discards like 3s? How much do you need to increase your chance to draw a useful tile to make it worth discarding a useful tile?
Discarding the isolated pin of 7 pin, 3 sou or 7 sou are common beginner discards. If it were me, I would bravely discard 1 pin or 3 pin.
Actually when it comes to effective tile loss, the loss of discarding 3 pin will only be the other two 3 pin. However if you discard 3 sou, the loss will be 124 sou, a total of 12 tiles. In a situation with a lack of mentsu, relying on the toitsu in your hand to complete your hand will often result in failure.
Here's why I find that interesting: Currently this hand needs to draw 3 tiles to be completed, for example 2m, 1p and 3p. If you discard the 1p or 3p, you will need 4 tiles. To compensate, you'll have 10 extra tiles you can draw and potentially a much better shape.
So the question is: When are discards like 3p better than discards like 3s? How much do you need to increase your chance to draw a useful tile to make it worth discarding a useful tile?
In a closed hand where you have no yakuhai, you generally don't want more than two pairs in your hand unless your going for a toitoi/chiitoitsu. I think its very easy to see why this is the case if you look through your past games. Its very hard to draw a set and even if you do, your riichi hand will be pretty terrible. Other scenarios are maybe when your 1-shanten and you need to take some risks? or your 3p are doras? Its very hard to think of any scenarios where you would prefer the toitsu shape.
I'm so jelly, I am having spectacularly bad streak which put my point down to 20 with rating of 1797 (kicked out from upperdan lobby with risk of being demoted to 3 dan). I mean, bad run will happen to everyone eventually - just need to try to mitigate the effect when it strikes.
The first hand there and the comment on it caught my attention: 34789m 11337p 37s ww (notice it's 14 tiles)
From the article:
Discarding the isolated pin of 7 pin, 3 sou or 7 sou are common beginner discards. If it were me, I would bravely discard 1 pin or 3 pin.
Actually when it comes to effective tile loss, the loss of discarding 3 pin will only be the other two 3 pin. However if you discard 3 sou, the loss will be 124 sou, a total of 12 tiles. In a situation with a lack of mentsu, relying on the toitsu in your hand to complete your hand will often result in failure.
Here's why I find that interesting: Currently this hand needs to draw 3 tiles to be completed, for example 2m, 1p and 3p. If you discard the 1p or 3p, you will need 4 tiles. To compensate, you'll have 10 extra tiles you can draw and potentially a much better shape.
So the question is: When are discards like 3p better than discards like 3s? How much do you need to increase your chance to draw a useful tile to make it worth discarding a useful tile?
In a closed hand where you have no yakuhai, you generally don't want more than two pairs in your hand unless your going for a toitoi/chiitoitsu. I think its very easy to see why this is the case if you look through your past games. Its very hard to draw a set and even if you do, your riichi hand will be pretty terrible. Other scenarios are maybe when your 1-shanten and you need to take some risks? or your 3p are doras? Its very hard to think of any scenarios where you would prefer the toitsu shape.
Well, there's got to be some statistics behind it. You need more useful draws, but you have a higher chance to draw them - naturally there's a breakeven point somewhere. Obviously there are many other factors playing into the equation, so you can't follow an absolute rule. But as a rule of thumb, do you need +10 useful tiles, +8, +6? Would you take a pair apart for a single 2 or 1?
This part of the problem brings me right to the next issue: It's not just about the +10 useful tiles right away, but also about the range of tiles that can be used after you drew a tile close to the single tile you kept. If you kept a 3, drawing 2 or 4 is great. If you kept a 1, whether you draw a 1, 2 or 3 it's never great. Still can be better than a pair, but wasted a lot of time moving from a pair to a 12 or 13 shape.
On April 08 2015 01:30 Hesmyrr wrote: I'm so jelly, I am having spectacularly bad streak which put my point down to 20 with rating of 1797 (kicked out from upperdan lobby with risk of being demoted to 3 dan). I mean, bad run will happen to everyone eventually - just need to try to mitigate the effect when it strikes.
Happened to me as well...got last place in 5 games out of 13 or something. At least I'm back above 1800 ranking and finally in the dan lobby as well (haven't lost a game there so far).
Sucks to be the toimen. Not sure why he discarded the 2p. There's no point in keeping the 4m at all. Kamicha gets pretty much the best result he could expect (2nd place). If he discarded 6p instead of 3p then he would have a better chance of overtaking you.
Either I'm on a streak of luck or rereading that piece on taking pairs apart in favor of lone middle tiles has increased my efficiency by a lot. I'm hoping for the latter.
The first hand there and the comment on it caught my attention: 34789m 11337p 37s ww (notice it's 14 tiles)
From the article:
Discarding the isolated pin of 7 pin, 3 sou or 7 sou are common beginner discards. If it were me, I would bravely discard 1 pin or 3 pin.
Actually when it comes to effective tile loss, the loss of discarding 3 pin will only be the other two 3 pin. However if you discard 3 sou, the loss will be 124 sou, a total of 12 tiles. In a situation with a lack of mentsu, relying on the toitsu in your hand to complete your hand will often result in failure.
Here's why I find that interesting: Currently this hand needs to draw 3 tiles to be completed, for example 2m, 1p and 3p. If you discard the 1p or 3p, you will need 4 tiles. To compensate, you'll have 10 extra tiles you can draw and potentially a much better shape.
So the question is: When are discards like 3p better than discards like 3s? How much do you need to increase your chance to draw a useful tile to make it worth discarding a useful tile?
In a closed hand where you have no yakuhai, you generally don't want more than two pairs in your hand unless your going for a toitoi/chiitoitsu. I think its very easy to see why this is the case if you look through your past games. Its very hard to draw a set and even if you do, your riichi hand will be pretty terrible. Other scenarios are maybe when your 1-shanten and you need to take some risks? or your 3p are doras? Its very hard to think of any scenarios where you would prefer the toitsu shape.
Well, there's got to be some statistics behind it. You need more useful draws, but you have a higher chance to draw them - naturally there's a breakeven point somewhere. Obviously there are many other factors playing into the equation, so you can't follow an absolute rule. But as a rule of thumb, do you need +10 useful tiles, +8, +6? Would you take a pair apart for a single 2 or 1?
This part of the problem brings me right to the next issue: It's not just about the +10 useful tiles right away, but also about the range of tiles that can be used after you drew a tile close to the single tile you kept. If you kept a 3, drawing 2 or 4 is great. If you kept a 1, whether you draw a 1, 2 or 3 it's never great. Still can be better than a pair, but wasted a lot of time moving from a pair to a 12 or 13 shape.
I think that question is overshadowed by the higher possibility of a double-ended riichi, at least in this scenario. In most other scenarios, I believe it's also overshadowed by higher possibility of multiple waits on riichi since that's what it means when you have more useful tiles to improve your hand.
Urgh. Currently waddling around R1800 atm due to I having such different success between lower dan and upper dan lobby.
I don't even mind being stuck on 4 dan, I just wish I had enough rank and points to stop worrying about being kicked out from the latter. In one lower dan lobby game I was forced to play, two people called kan without being in tenpai, with one of them calling third kan AFTER I declared riichi.
I won that match with a lead of about 2000 points, after fourth place overtook third place with a ron of 2000 points, which was more than third place had.
I won that match with a lead of about 2000 points, after fourth place overtook third place with a ron of 2000 points, which was more than third place had.
I've been on the receiving end of that - except it was on my second discard in the whole game ;_;
I won that match with a lead of about 2000 points, after fourth place overtook third place with a ron of 2000 points, which was more than third place had.
I've been on the receiving end of that - except it was on my second discard in the whole game ;_;
What was it that someone said, kokushit? I wouldn't mind that yaku gone since I never even got a chance to go for it in a long long time lol
I won that match with a lead of about 2000 points, after fourth place overtook third place with a ron of 2000 points, which was more than third place had.
I've been on the receiving end of that - except it was on my second discard in the whole game ;_;
What was it that someone said, kokushit? I wouldn't mind that yaku gone since I never even got a chance to go for it in a long long time lol
I get a LOT of hands full of kokushi tiles. This one started at a low 8 of those tiles, so I had to keep it, but the hand was no good for anything else so I went for it.
Also recently a hand went all the way to a draw and much to my surprise an opponent was tenpai for Kokushi. I had no idea he was going for it...
Is anyone still playing in WAML? Trying to find a game is nightmare for me. Although much flexible, I almost prefer the organizers to set out fixed "playing times" so I can tell for sure my ability to participate instead of coincidentally trying to come across 4~5 people at the same time on IRC (this would not be problem should forum be active, but it seems effectively dead due to poor communication where about half of the participants don't seem to realize it exists).
On May 05 2015 23:40 Hesmyrr wrote: Is anyone still playing in WAML? Trying to find a game is nightmare for me. Although much flexible, I almost prefer the organizers to set out fixed "playing times" so I can tell for sure my ability to participate instead of coincidentally trying to come across 4~5 people at the same time on IRC (this would not be problem should forum be active, but it seems effectively dead due to poor communication where about half of the participants don't seem to realize it exists).
Yeah I dropped out I thin it would've been better if the organizer just set fixed times And then work from there I suppose
Still it is tough to get people from all over the place to do things
On May 05 2015 23:40 Hesmyrr wrote: Is anyone still playing in WAML? Trying to find a game is nightmare for me. Although much flexible, I almost prefer the organizers to set out fixed "playing times" so I can tell for sure my ability to participate instead of coincidentally trying to come across 4~5 people at the same time on IRC (this would not be problem should forum be active, but it seems effectively dead due to poor communication where about half of the participants don't seem to realize it exists).
Yeah I dropped out I thin it would've been better if the organizer just set fixed times And then work from there I suppose
Still it is tough to get people from all over the place to do things
WAML years ago used to be a more chaotic system, where anyone who plays in the 7447 room ends up getting their points compiled. That old system encouraged a lot of play in there, but to top the point standings, all that required was a lot of game play. Unfortunately, that ends up skewing a lot of results considerably.
Now, as for the current system... I can't speak for the organizer; but I'm presuming, that it was intended to produce results in a more "controlled" fashion - where every player has N-games to play.
If you ask me, a hybrid system might very well be possible. Players come in at a fixed and pre-arranged time on a weekly basis. Those who come end up participating and getting their records compiled.
I didn't participate but I prefer how it was done in the previous seasons where you just queue and wait for games to start. It just needed some work with its point system. I stopped playing in their leagues though since the competition is just way too soft for me (no offense). I just prefer to queue up against ladder.
I was hoping to get there by the end of the month... but then I went 5-2-0-1. Sadly I was durdling around on 2/3 dan for so long that my rating has taken a huge hit. Now I'm around 1700 and at this rate I might hit 5 dan before I get to 1800 rating.
Are those rules based on some big japanese tourney format or are they as random as they seem to me? What the hell is "no abortive draws", anyways? So what do you do when the 6th kan is declared?
On June 11 2015 03:16 spinesheath wrote:Are those rules based on some big japanese tourney format or are they as random as they seem to me? What the hell is "no abortive draws", anyways? So what do you do when the 6th kan is declared?
They're somewhat a modified version of the World Riichi Rules. No abortive draws... they're all turned off. But the extra kan thing -- hope it doesn't happen. But good question. I don't know the answer to that.
On June 11 2015 03:16 spinesheath wrote:Are those rules based on some big japanese tourney format or are they as random as they seem to me? What the hell is "no abortive draws", anyways? So what do you do when the 6th kan is declared?
They're somewhat a modified version of the World Riichi Rules. No abortive draws... they're all turned off. But the extra kan thing -- hope it doesn't happen. But good question. I don't know the answer to that.
Don't worry, the chances of that happening are slim. As are the chances of kazoe yakuman (especially without aka dora) and double yakuman... Well, unless everyone is going for super high value hands all the time.
I'm guessing additional kans would just not be possible.
The rules are pretty bizarre, and touch upon some obscure scenarios seemingly just for the hell of it, such as the kozoe yakuman.
Although the one that makes no sense to me is:
Last-hand riichi sticks are removed from the game.
So does that mean if you declare riichi in the last hand, your 1000 pts is gone even if you win, or does it mean that the riichi sticks that were already deposited are lost if all last ends in a draw and the game ends.
And the game ending at south 4 is really vague too. Does it end if dealer wins or is tenpai when they're 1st, or what?
I am also considering dropping in for the tournament, but I have not registered due to online transactions being difficult for me and I am not sure they'll have space for someone who will randomly show up at the morning. Besides the fact that it is tentative whether I'll even have enough free time. Only if the tournament had been just one week later....
On June 16 2015 23:21 Hesmyrr wrote:So how was the event?
It was a worthwhile trip - a nice 1,800 mile (almost 3000 km) drive. The drive allowed me access to the Detroit Mahjong Club and the Waterloo Mahjong Club along the way. Good thing I did not book a flight.
Regrettably, I already declared my absence to next year due to an intent to spreading myself around. My travel per year is very limited, and I'd like to check out other mahjong groups (or events) on this continent.
As for the event itself, my only main complaint would be the tournament size of 12-players; but at the very least, the player quality makes up for the low attendance numbers. On the Tenhou scale, the upper level players are well into the 3-dan to 5-dan range. Only a few, I'd classify at 2-dan or below. This assessment is based more on noticeable play-styles rather than results. Competition was tight; and conventional mahjong tactics are considered during the game, including factoring point differences. Being there, it felt like a professional tournament by North American standards. Essentially, I found myself generally playing the style at WRMA: http://arcturus.su/wiki/World_Riichi_Mahjong_League
The hospitality was great. My main regret here is not necessarily talking enough with the Montreal club. Being an Osamuko guy, I ended up leaning more towards the other Osamuko guys. After all, we have our own little circle there. Yet, at the post game dinners on both days, we managed to hang out at a couple of local restaurants to do some nice socializing there. At the very least, it was a pleasure there and then. There was at least one player, who was of particular interest due to his funny antics. It was fun joking around with him at the tournament tables. In the end, we were all happy to be around each other after some fairly played games.
The mahjong discussion was great, with a big focus on the effort to providing mahjong information to the general public. After all, most publications are in Japanese. So, access is limited in this department, for those (like me) who are illiterate in Japanese. I wish I had taken notes; but I'll continue the work in the Wiki instead.
Overall, I was glad to have gone. Much fun was had; and I felt like I belonged there. If I could, I'd do it again; but once again, I need to spread myself out -- particularly to the West Coast (Seattle and/or San Fran.) Until then, I need to up my game.
On June 11 2015 03:16 spinesheath wrote:Are those rules based on some big japanese tourney format or are they as random as they seem to me? What the hell is "no abortive draws", anyways? So what do you do when the 6th kan is declared?
They're somewhat a modified version of the World Riichi Rules. No abortive draws... they're all turned off. But the extra kan thing -- hope it doesn't happen. But good question. I don't know the answer to that.
There were no abortive draws (9 terminals, 4 initial same winds, 4 riichi, 4 kans) for two reasons: one being the most tournaments disallow them (not just WRC2014), the other being that they are a pain in the ass to deal with.
6 kans is impossible, as is 5. 4 never even happened at the tournament (3 separate was the most): not having abortive draws would increase the chance of sankantsu scoring (somewhat negligeable), and anyone daring to call a fifth would be told to take his tiles back, as nothing more than "broadcasting information" to his own detriment.
As for WAML, it's pretty much dead, we'll have to figure out what to do with the scores in place, and do something different. I'm willing to pass the reins off on that one. Trying to run a distributed grid like that across any area with more than 2 time zones (so not Canada, the US, EU+Russia, or in this specific instance: the entire planet) is bound to fail. As Top Gear says, ambitious but rubbish.
At least the live tournament last weekend was ambitious but successful. Would have liked to have more than 12 participants though: next year's edition is already (90%) scheduled for June 4-5, 2016. No excuses, show up
On June 19 2015 04:45 Trundle wrote: As for WAML, it's pretty much dead, we'll have to figure out what to do with the scores in place, and do something different. I'm willing to pass the reins off on that one. Trying to run a distributed grid like that across any area with more than 2 time zones (so not Canada, the US, EU+Russia, or in this specific instance: the entire planet) is bound to fail. As Top Gear says, ambitious but rubbish.
Once again, I'll propose something similar to the LMC system, where we schedule online game sessions on a semi-regular basis. Whoever comes, they play; and we get their scores. It's somewhat a makeshift hybrid of the initial but ridiculously chaotic WAML from years ago to the more organized but dead WAML of this year.
Personally, I feel, that I have to go to this one.
Is it open to everyone?
I have never played with real tiles, so many it's not a good idea for me to go lol There doesn't seem much info on the site, except for pre-registering
It's open to everyone, thus the whole point of calling it an open. Anyone who can pay the registration fee and that knows the rules of the game should be able to register.
If you do not know how to play riichi mahjong, or have otherwise committed the most foul of foul acts (cheating or sabotage), then of course you can't. If you have never touched live tiles before, I actively suggest going to a mahjong club and get the feel of the game two or three times prior. Montreal, Waterloo (ON), Chicago, New York, Crestville (FL), Seattle, San Francisco, and a few others are good places to get that live experience that while not mandatory, is very important to perform well at the tournament.
You should be able to discard relatively fast, as well as count waits and furiten with ease.
As far as I am aware it should be a double yakuman regardless of ron or tsumo. The double yakuman is granted for 4 concealed triplets with a wait to complete the pair. The triplets are concealed no matter how you complete the pair.
But tenhou has its own set of rules, and apparently there simply are no double yakuman on tenhou.net: arcturus.su/wiki/Multiple_yakuman
Some groups, most notably Tenhou.net, do not award double yakuman for any specific hand. However, multiple yakuman are still possible, if two (or more) different yakuman are completed in the same hand.
Nice hand, Rhaegar. Indeed Tenhou doesn't do double yakuman, although it does recognize the hand as a separate variant. Multiple yakuman is possible, as the wiki said. But getting 32000 points should get you to 1st place in most cases anyway.
I knew I drew the devil there. Still went for it. Lost 7700 to West. And in the next hand, shimocha drew a turn 7 open Honitsu Honroutou Toitoi Haku Hatsu Chun (as if 9 han wasn't enough, this also happens to be a yakuman).
I probably would have discarded the 2p here too seeing they discarded 3p before riichi. Also like Benawii mentioned, 9m is super dangerous due to 8m dora. If I discarded 9m, then I wouldn't have even thought about the 2p.
Not too sure when you were iishanten but I would have riichi this hand 2 steps after west riichi seeing how the other two appear to be defending. No need to conceal your hand when the only other contesting player is in riichi. Then again I've been losing a lot lately so maybe no the best suggestion
That 3p was from a 334p shape. I don't know why, but the 9m didn't feel as dangerous as the 2p to me. I still held it until I had to discard it to get tenpai. The 2p however, the moment I saw it I cursed my luck. I was set on not backing down (except maybe if I drew a dora I guess), so I didn't think about it either, but I still wished had drawn better. I'm not so sure about the riichi. I was content with the value of the hand and didn't want to make my opponents play more defensively against me as well. In rarely call riichi when I get tenpai that late, I'd rather increase my odds of winning something before anyone else can.
into guy on the left riichi for 2.6k. I've never felt so betrayed before in my life. I don't think I'll ever get a starting hand like that again lol
But man the shaft was real. I got another dora super fast, probably like 3rd or 4th draw, decided against replacing one of the other pairs because I figured getting another dora if I have to settle for calling would be harder. Next draw obviously another dora that would have made it a tripplet orz
Nice starting hand. After drawing another dora I would discard south instead, because 7788s can become iipeikou. Also, having two doras in your hand boosts your hand point by a lot, giving you a good chance of ending up 1st.
On August 23 2015 14:01 Rhaegar99 wrote: Then again I've been losing a lot lately so maybe no the best suggestion
I'm at 0-6-7-5 0-6-8-5 this month. Can you top that?
I won 1 match last month, so I ended that one 1-6-8-5. This month I'm doing way better: 2-5-12-6.
It's ridiculous. I'm still playing in the lower dan room like I've been for ages now. But these last 2 months have been nothing but frustrating matches unlike everything I have experienced before. I'm not even losing that much - I just can't win anything. I don't even notice any big or frequent mistakes I'm making. I'm pretty certain that I couldn't possibly be winning as many quick high value hands as my opponents do and I'm almost tempted to actually verify that...
Spines, if you want, post the game links for at least a few games you lost, and we can take a look and try to see if you make systematic mistakes anywhere. From the results it looks like you might be playing too defensively, but we need to see the replays to verify that. IMO, letting other people review your games is really helpful and we should do it more often.
On September 26 2015 01:29 Benawii wrote: Spines, if you want, post the game links for at least a few games you lost, and we can take a look and try to see if you make systematic mistakes anywhere. From the results it looks like you might be playing too defensively, but we need to see the replays to verify that. IMO, letting other people review your games is really helpful and we should do it more often.
Thanks! Frankly, I was hoping someone would suggest that. My own judgement obviously is clouded by frustration - even though I try to never play when frustrated. + Show Spoiler +
Looks like your biggest problem is tile efficiency. Instead of giving general guidelines I think it is better to delve into specific situations. Here are my comments from this game: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015082316gm-0089-0000-9dda0d34&tw=0.
East 1 Turn 3 (draws 6m): You are the dealer, so you want to get to tenpai as soon as possible. Most of the time your shanten number should never increase. Sanshoku is not an option here because it will slow you down. Three groups are pretty much set in stone, 789p, 56s, and 999s. With 8s next to 999s that group can turn into pair + group relatively easily (if you draw 7s then one of 4578s will do the trick). 6679m is your potential fourth group + pair. You need to discard 5p here.
East 2-0 Turn 5 (draws another 6s): Don't view 4566778m as two complete groups plus one extra tile. This is an extremely good shape which can be viewed as 4567 + 678m or 456 + 6778m. Both can easily turn into 3 groups if you draw one of 35689m. You should discard 2s here. At turn 11 (draws 8s), you should discard 2s because 668s can turn into 678s. It also gives you slightly better chance of chiitoitsu tenpai.
East 3-1 Turn 8 (draws 3s): Not sure why you discarded 7s. The only correct discard here is pei (North).
East 4-0 Turn 5 (draws another 7m): It's true that two 7p are out, but with your 4p discard it makes a good suji trap. Between 3m and 7m I would discard 3m because 7m gives you a small chance of iipeikou and one of each 124m is out already.
South 1-0 Turn 7 (draws 3m): Pairs are easy to get, so don't break your 999s. Discard 1s or 2s.
South 4 Turn 4 (draws first 9m): To avoid last place, either the dealer has to deal into your mangan or the game has to continue to the next round. So, your goal is to make a mangan hand and hope the dealer deals in. If that does not happen you should at least be in tenpai. Do this while avoiding dealing into anyone. Your best bet to getting a mangan hand would be the dora chun. It should be the last thing you discard from your hand.
On September 26 2015 07:27 Benawii wrote: Looks like your biggest problem is tile efficiency. Instead of giving general guidelines I think it is better to delve into specific situations. Here are my comments from this game: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015082316gm-0089-0000-9dda0d34&tw=0.
East 1 Turn 3 (draws 6m): You are the dealer, so you want to get to tenpai as soon as possible. Most of the time your shanten number should never increase. Sanshoku is not an option here because it will slow you down. Three groups are pretty much set in stone, 789p, 56s, and 999s. With 8s next to 999s that group can turn into pair + group relatively easily (if you draw 7s then one of 4578s will do the trick). 6679m is your potential fourth group + pair. You need to discard 5p here.
East 2-0 Turn 5 (draws another 6s): Don't view 4566778m as two complete groups plus one extra tile. This is an extremely good shape which can be viewed as 4567 + 678m or 456 + 6778m. Both can easily turn into 3 groups if you draw one of 35689m. You should discard 2s here. At turn 11 (draws 8s), you should discard 2s because 668s can turn into 678s. It also gives you slightly better chance of chiitoitsu tenpai.
East 3-1 Turn 8 (draws 3s): Not sure why you discarded 7s. The only correct discard here is pei (North).
East 4-0 Turn 5 (draws another 7m): It's true that two 7p are out, but with your 4p discard it makes a good suji trap. Between 3m and 7m I would discard 3m because 7m gives you a small chance of iipeikou and one of each 124m is out already.
South 1-0 Turn 7 (draws 3m): Pairs are easy to get, so don't break your 999s. Discard 1s or 2s.
South 4 Turn 4 (draws first 9m): To avoid last place, either the dealer has to deal into your mangan or the game has to continue to the next round. So, your goal is to make a mangan hand and hope the dealer deals in. If that does not happen you should at least be in tenpai. Do this while avoiding dealing into anyone. Your best bet to getting a mangan hand would be the dora chun. It should be the last thing you discard from your hand.
Thanks! For some of these I really don't quite know why I did it like that. Especially that 3-1 turn 8 one is super weird. I'll have to find out why I am doing that. I'll probably also do some actual uke ire counting practice as your points suggest that my judgement is off in that area. I don't actually count much, I mostly play by instinct.
Yes, doing some counting practice will help, but even before that just try to get a sense of "what are the tiles (and how many) I need to draw for this tile in my hand to be usable?" For example, with 679 the tile 9 is not likely to be useful. With 35689 the tile 3 is only useful if you are going for tanyao. By the way I suggest using Tenhou's uke ire tool to compute uke ire: http://tenhou.net/2/.
Also, one way to practice by yourself is to look at replays of high-level players. Try to guess what the player will discard in each turn. If the actual discard made is something you would not discard, then stop and think why the player discarded it. For different ways to get these replays see https://www.reddit.com/r/Mahjong/comments/3lttig/how_to_find_good_tenhou_replays/.
I am still in the process of verifying Tenhou's ranking algorithm but once I have done so, I may post my findings here. So far, it is still going on track within my current expectations. I still have about 1100 games left to play. I hope to hit 7 dan this time. Played over 8000 games, mostly east only games. Still doing everything i can do avoid bullshit 4th place finishes.
On September 28 2015 02:24 merchant01 wrote: I am still in the process of verifying Tenhou's ranking algorithm but once I have done so, I may post my findings here. So far, it is still going on track within my current expectations. I still have about 1100 games left to play. I hope to hit 7 dan this time. Played over 8000 games, mostly east only games. Still doing everything i can do avoid bullshit 4th place finishes.
Are you talking about the R rating system? The formula is known and it's probably correct. Also it's not very important unless you play in a lower room than your current level.
1100, huh? That's actually not too bad for east-only games. I imagine the variance would be pretty high though. With some luck you might hit 7 dan much earlier than that.
On September 29 2015 02:43 Benawii wrote: Then you mean the dan/points system. Isn't that quite straightforward? There's a table for it in the Tenhou manual.
No. These elements are irrelevant. What the most important thing is tracking a specific amount of games and tracking your 1st and 4th place. These are part of the algorithm. Tsuno tracks cheaters by checking the 4th place % at specific points.
Each rooms have specific high and low cap % on 1st and 4th place. Generally higher level rooms have lower 1st place cap % and higher 4th place cap %.
Hearthstone uses the similar type of algorithm using percentage caps over a set of games. out of those two, Tenhou has the worst grind amount.
Wow, so little activity in here. I haven't gotten around to playing a lot either... work always exhausts my mind. Oh well, what are a couple of months to a game as old as this?
Anyways, I just found a link to this on Osamuko's blog: A Mahjong Strategy Primer for European Players by Daina Chiba (if anyone knows that person, never heard the name before). It also says "Riichi Book I", which suggests that there is more to come
Haven't read it yet, but I'm looking forward to.
Also, if you haven't heard yet, there was an Akagi drama series aired a while ago. It only covers Washizu Mahjong, but this time with real people. And fake blood, I guess.
Update on the book: You can safely skip to page 80 / chapter 3 if you are a regular on tenhou already. That first part only explains how to play there. It also covers some interesting information about tenhou itself and a vague comparision on how ranks there compare to japanese mahjong parlors and leagues. There's also an explanation for the stats screen.
Tenhou generally for me is topic too frustrating to talk about perhaps
I actually came back month ago after my ragequit and intended to post after I reach 4 Dan again, but I'm prodding water ineffectively atm. Hard to find something to talk about.
The book does give some interesting recommendations - the fact one of its inspirations is "Utahime Obakamiko" is plus for me, since it's first external material that actually shaped my current Mahjong playing style. Although the manga I do not believe translates perfectly into the doctrine Tenhou demands.
I'm through the book now. It was quite interesting and I'd recommend it. I would have prefered if there had been deeper reasoning behind some of the recommendations, and the book lacks a section on what to do with high shanten hands and when/whether to discard honors. Still, I found it quite helpful and it's a resource I might consult again every now and then.
That was... interesting. Half way through the match tacwan was ahead by over 70000 points. I managed to reduce that all the way down to ~3000 points. The match was terminated because those other guys (hardly noticed them) went flying with my last tsumo.
Unfortunately, the result bumps me right out temporarily. I hope to get back soon. Few things to work on: damaten defense, paying greater attention to discards the later a hand goes, and balancing options to maximize possibilities.
It's been going pretty well ever since I read that book: Seriously, I highly recommend that book. My rating is finally improving as well. It's quite annoying though that I get +/-5 rating per match at most. It's still a long way to R1800.
Hello! I've stumbled upon this thread while looking for Japanese mahjong discussions, and was glad to find an active non-Japanese community for the game. I've been on playing on Tenhou for a good year after teaching myself to play, and only recently have registered an ID and begun playing ranked games. I am also chronicling some of my games on YouTube for my own scrutiny. (I hope the bgm in the vids isn't much of an issue. It's from a web radio I enjoy that plays video game music called NoLife-radio.)
Would appreciate any kind of feedback. I am currently 1st dan and have started playing in joukyu rooms. The spike in challenge was significant and I'm gradually learning more about strategic discarding and basic defense methods.
Nice to see someone join our community! (well, "community", in pretty loose definition)
I'll try to look at the latest vod when I have the time and give feedback, but mahjong learning book/pdf spinesheath brought up is excellent material to found your basic strategy upon if you haven't read it yet.
Thanks! I have already gotten that book, and I'm reading through it at the moment. I am going through as many resources as I can find.
There's a 3-part video series I found that shares some of the same principles as the book. It's actually pretty good information. Here's the first part:
FYI, Tenhou has replay functionality. It's easier to use than recording and uploading matches onto Youtube, and lets you see how accurate your reads are on other players.
Though it's apparently not shared by account, meaning you'd have to remember to save the link somewhere else if you play on multiple computers or want to view old games. Recording games by video also have benefit of allowing you to save any commentaries about your current thought processes which could be scrutinized, but in this case it seems to be moot since you're solely using it as form of storage method.
On April 05 2016 04:07 Hesmyrr wrote: Though it's apparently not shared by account, meaning you'd have to remember to save the link somewhere else if you play on multiple computers or want to view old games. Recording games by video also have benefit of allowing you to save any commentaries about your current thought processes which could be scrutinized, but in this case it seems to be moot since you're solely using it as form of storage method.
You can dig up the file that stores the last 40 replays URLs on your computer somewhere under AppData. The actual replay files are stored on tenhou's servers, and probably stay available there for a very long time. At least until the replay is so old that you don't care about it anymore. The file on your computer doesn't contain the actual URL though as far as I remember, just some parts of it. The client pieces those parts together with some other parts to create the actual URL.
So just copy the URLs out of the client if you want to keep them. Replays also have the added benefit that you can look at other people's hands if you want to understand why they played how they did.
Also if you look back to page 15 or so of this thread I posted a tool that downloads the actual replay files from tenhou's servers along with a program that can display them independently of tenhou.net. I haven't touched either of them in quite a while though, so I have no idea if the replay format is still the same and the download still works.
I occasionally sit at work, thinking how much I'd rather code mahjong stuff... I have plenty of ideas for that too. But when I come home I just want to do something else. I can only handle so much coding each a day.
A while back I made a tool that saves the replay URLs from Tenhou clients in a separate file. It does not download the actual log, but I believe it does not get deleted anyway. The tool is at https://github.com/Benawii/tenhou-log-collector. More information is in the README.
On April 05 2016 06:08 Benawii wrote: A while back I made a tool that saves the replay URLs from Tenhou clients in a separate file. It does not download the actual log, but I believe it does not get deleted anyway. The tool is at https://github.com/Benawii/tenhou-log-collector. More information is in the README.
Man, and here I am using forums and/or reddit to archive selected games.
Now, with this tool, so it's possible to download Tenhou logs, upload them into the client, and run the replays offline?
For Anime Central, I'm looking to do some kind of strategy panel and dissect games. Then again, I could also do this for the Intro panel. Up in Anime Milwaukee, I was also doing an intro panel, only to find my slide preparation to be inadequate. So, I took advantage of the convention center's free internet and just loaded up some tenhou links. Unfortunately, Anime Central will not have this free Internet.
On April 12 2016 15:16 KyuuSC wrote: Took me a while to get here; and it required some bits of hell along the way. I'm sure to expect more hell pressing forward.
Nice! What's your Rating? I'm on my way there too (at least if things keep going the way they have been lately), but it still might take a while.
On April 05 2016 06:08 Benawii wrote: A while back I made a tool that saves the replay URLs from Tenhou clients in a separate file. It does not download the actual log, but I believe it does not get deleted anyway. The tool is at https://github.com/Benawii/tenhou-log-collector. More information is in the README.
Man, and here I am using forums and/or reddit to archive selected games.
Now, with this tool, so it's possible to download Tenhou logs, upload them into the client, and run the replays offline?
For Anime Central, I'm looking to do some kind of strategy panel and dissect games. Then again, I could also do this for the Intro panel. Up in Anime Milwaukee, I was also doing an intro panel, only to find my slide preparation to be inadequate. So, I took advantage of the convention center's free internet and just loaded up some tenhou links. Unfortunately, Anime Central will not have this free Internet.
His program only saves the replay URL. The tenhou client uses that to download the actual replay from the tenhou.net servers. Under normal circumstances you shouldn't be able to use either of the official tenhou clients to watch replays offline. I guess you could in theory fetch the actual replay file and save a client on disk, then simulate the tenhou servers to watch the replay offline... not so trivial.
With my program somewhere in the depths of this thread, running replays offline should be possible, but as I stated above, I haven't touched that in quite a while so I don't know if everything still works. It also doesn't look very much like the official tenhou clients.
However, the LogGrabber doesn't seem to do its job anymore. Could be that tenhou changed the dowload URLs or something like that. And I didn't really make it configurable back then. And without replays, the viewer is pointless. So, I just checked, and the LogGrabber does indeed get a 404 Error when trying to fetch the replay. And because Tenhou uses some really odd URL transformation, I won't be able to fix it very easily.
On April 12 2016 08:14 KyuuSC wrote: Now, with this tool, so it's possible to download Tenhou logs, upload them into the client, and run the replays offline?
For Anime Central, I'm looking to do some kind of strategy panel and dissect games. Then again, I could also do this for the Intro panel. Up in Anime Milwaukee, I was also doing an intro panel, only to find my slide preparation to be inadequate. So, I took advantage of the convention center's free internet and just loaded up some tenhou links. Unfortunately, Anime Central will not have this free Internet.
My tool doesn't download the actual mjlog files, mainly because I do not really see a point of doing that. Tenhou's Windows client can actually open mjlog files from disk and run the replay, but to do that it looks like you have to log in first, which would not work without an internet connection. Your best bet is probably to save the replays as screenshots or videos.
On April 13 2016 01:23 spinesheath wrote: Nice! What's your Rating? I'm on my way there too (at least if things keep going the way they have been lately), but it still might take a while.
I sit at 1840 now. For a year up till February, I've been hovering between 1730-1780 going up and down while remaining at 4-dan par.
Your best bet is probably to save the replays as screenshots or videos.
Yea Sad that client doesn't have offline functionality. The tactics discussions; yea, those can be done with screenshots.
My Tenhou Windows client doesn't load anymore all of a sudden. Any ideas why that could be? Reinstalling didn't help; it doesn't work under AppLocale or Japanese region settings. It just sits there showing two progress bars at 0%. I can't find a logfile either.
Edit: apprently it was a server thing. Works again.
Also I just found a tool called logana under C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Local\C-EGG\tenhou\130 Next to it is a config.ini which contains a path that you can set to a folder where you have some *.mjlog files (like the ones you can download on tenhou.net for all the tenhoui ranked players). If you do that and then start logana, it will list all those files. Double click one and it will start the local client (I assume this tool comes with the windows client). I can't tell if it allows you to view replays without logging in because my client won't start though. God what the hell is this...
Edit: Now that I am able to login again I tried that again and when I try to load a replay from within logana it tells me to start the client, login and start logana from there. So nope, doesn't allow offline replay viewing.
So, I had a plan to "enable" offline replays in the tenhou client by redirecting all traffic from the client to a local fake server (that only does the bare minimum to allow replays). That way the client would think it's online when it actually isn't. But it is quite the hassle (having to access the file C:/Windows/System32/drivers/etc/hosts, which not only requires admin rights but also is specifically protected by antivirus software) and I have little experience with web related stuff.
Maybe one of my colleages can give me a few hints.
On April 17 2016 22:10 spinesheath wrote: So, I had a plan to "enable" offline replays in the tenhou client by redirecting all traffic from the client to a local fake server (that only does the bare minimum to allow replays). That way the client would think it's online when it actually isn't. But it is quite the hassle (having to access the file C:/Windows/System32/drivers/etc/hosts, which not only requires admin rights but also is specifically protected by antivirus software) and I have little experience with web related stuff.
Maybe one of my colleages can give me a few hints.
Personally, I use a tool called Proxifier to redirect network traffic. It is not free though. Another option is using WinDivert.
On April 17 2016 22:10 spinesheath wrote: So, I had a plan to "enable" offline replays in the tenhou client by redirecting all traffic from the client to a local fake server (that only does the bare minimum to allow replays). That way the client would think it's online when it actually isn't. But it is quite the hassle (having to access the file C:/Windows/System32/drivers/etc/hosts, which not only requires admin rights but also is specifically protected by antivirus software) and I have little experience with web related stuff.
Maybe one of my colleages can give me a few hints.
Personally, I use a tool called Proxifier to redirect network traffic. It is not free though. Another option is using WinDivert.
Interesting. I will consider WinDivert when I give this idea another try.
All this activity in this thread has got me to pick Tenhou up again. Logged in what must have been at least 6 months. Found myself around 1850/2000 in 5dan. After a few games, I'm finally back into 6dan.
So, I have the next 2 weeks off from work. Can we get 4 players together one of those days, at some time that is not in the middle of the night at CET?
Either schedule something -- or play against some 7447's.
And my stint at tokujou has been quick. Managed to get 101 games in there, before falling below R1800 -- AND -- one 4th away from falling back to 4dan.
Well we can play in 7447, but we have to decide a time and date so we can all join in at the same time I'm down to play, I'm sorta available all time this week
Apparently most of you are from the US/Canada, so I compared the US timezones with mine. If I also assume that everyone sleeps at around the same hours (red), that leaves the green cells as possible times.
I guess those times are a bit inconvenient for people who go to work/school during the day in the Americas. And I'm really not fond of staying up way past midnight anymore. Can we do it anyways?
I'm looking to learn mahjong after Akagi has me hooked on it. I was just curious if there's a PDF of the rules of Mahjong and the scoring system. I know a few hands, but it's hard to know them all without learning the rest.
Try this: Osamuko's beginner's guide. EDIT: Well JSH already linked that one. I recommend that you just start playing on tenhou.net right away. See part 1.5 of the guide for that. Osamuko's site is a nice resource in general.
And once you have a decent grip on the rules, you should read this free book: http://riichi.dynaman.net/
In other news: I've once again hit a streak where I just can't seem to do anything. Never getting tenpai, being forced to bail because I draw an oppoenent's winning tile at the worst time (I manage to draw and confirm those frighteningly often), and obviously my specialty, counter-ippatsu: I call riichi, someone else joins in and I deal into his hand right away.
Also I re-watched some Saki episodes (I thought there was more Mahjong and less "fanservice"), and ever since then my opponents call a lot of kans and have won off their rinshan tsumos twice already. I don't think I had seen a single rinshan kaihou in the last 200 matches before that.
My 3rd Yakuman hand since playing in Joukyu on two different accounts (4th if you count Kazoe). It helps that the other players were in stalemate, pretty much. I've uploaded the whole game on my channel.
I could go for a few games myself. I'm in the same timezone as CEST, so any of those times are good enough for me.
On May 05 2016 00:24 ApatheticSchizoid wrote: I'm looking to learn mahjong after Akagi has me hooked on it. I was just curious if there's a PDF of the rules of Mahjong and the scoring system. I know a few hands, but it's hard to know them all without learning the rest.
This is truly the weirdest match I ever played... http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2016060603gm-0089-0000-2b8d77e0&tw=1 Check out the player to my right. I have no idea what the hell he was doing. Not the slightest bit. For a while it seemed like he was forcing honitsu hands, but that wasn't it. When I watched the replay it seemed like a really odd way of forcing Kokushi, but that suspicion went by quickly as well. He also wasn't doing the "eliminate one suit" thing from Akagi. He wasn't trying to win. He wasn't trying to lose. He wasn't trying to make someone else win or lose. He wasn't even discarding randomly.
I just don't get it. And that's just about the only thing he could have been doing... making me not get it.
Because of that event, I bought 1 month's worth of Tenhou client. So, looks like I'll be playing the game to death this month, especially as I teeter on the lower end of the 5-dan scale on my verge to drop to 4-dan. Naturally, my goal here is to prevent that from happening.
On June 06 2016 17:30 KyuuSC wrote: Maybe he's on the verge of deranking; and he's looking to drop down on purpose to 2-dan. So, he didn't give a crap in that game.
Wouldn't you then either try to lose asap or just enable auto-discard and auto-no-call?
On June 06 2016 17:30 KyuuSC wrote: Because of that event, I bought 1 month's worth of Tenhou client. So, looks like I'll be playing the game to death this month,
The Tenhou subscription is so cheap, I don't see why you wouldn't have a 2 year subscription in the first place. I feel like their service is well worth that much. In any case, have fun grinding!
On June 07 2016 02:15 spinesheath wrote: Wouldn't you then either try to lose asap or just enable auto-discard and auto-no-call?
Nah, I'll fight every inch that I can. It's the harder road. I realized this during my 4-dan stretch, when I was on the verge of dropping from 4 to 3.
As for the client, well, I'm not in favor of pay-to-play (if I can). Now, if Tenhou changes such that access to tokujou and beyond requires a subscription, then no choice there. I suppose, I can treat myself to client here-and-there every few months. I've played so many games on the flash browser, so it's not gonna bother me. It's strange playing a few on Sega Mahjong though, where I find myself trying to shift tiles left and right (out of new habit).
The Pacific Mahjong League (PML) hosts the first international PML Riichi Mahjong Open 2016 tournament in San Francisco, California. Join us for an intense weekend of riichi with the pros and compete for a guaranteed spot in the World Riichi Championship.
The North American Riichi Mahjong Association is looking for players to field teams for the 2016 Interational Online Riichi Mahjong Competition. The nations of the United States and Canada are each looking to assemble teams for the November competition. The competition is hosted via Tenhou.net. So familiarity with Tenhou's interface is encouraged.
To qualify, players must play in at least two out of the four scheduled competitions. Any players entering in more than two of the schedule. Only the top two qualification scores are considered. So, there is no harm for any player to enter in more than two. US players compete in one set of qualifications, while Canadian players compete in their own set of qualifications. Both the US and Canadian competitions will occur concurrently.
A total of four players per nation will be selected with two alternates. Good luck to all participants.
The competition schedule is as follows: * September 17 * October 1 * October 15 * October 29
The times for each tryout competition is still pending.
The 2016 Interational Online Riichi Mahjong Competition is the sixth international team competition hosted by the Korean Mahjong League (KML). With each iteration, the competition has been growing year after year. The previous year hosted 6 national teams. This year, at least, thirteen teams are slated to participate. For more information on the IORMC itself, see here: http://kml.or.kr/xe/67895?ckattempt=1
The IORMC is scheduled for November 5 @ 11 AM UTC, which is 4 AM Pacific time or 7 AM Eastern time.
On August 18 2016 02:13 Hesmyrr wrote: Thank you for the notification. I'll see if I can participate when the time of tryouts become determined.
My bad on a very late replay. That start time is still being talked about, but I see suggestion of a start time similar to the IORMC itself to get people accustomed to playing at that time.
On August 18 2016 02:13 Hesmyrr wrote: Thank you for the notification. I'll see if I can participate when the time of tryouts become determined.
My bad on a very late replay. That start time is still being talked about, but I see suggestion of a start time similar to the IORMC itself to get people accustomed to playing at that time.
This forum is barely active so can't fault you for it.
Today was really weird. I played 5 or so matches and saw approximately 20 kans called. Most of which I was cursing the player for because they were so pointless. For one I was grateful because it led to that player playing into a mangan, which put him in range for me to overtake his first place. Which I did.
And I started the day off with a rinshan kaihou.
Just wow. This has to be one of the most frustrating discards ever:
If you discard 9s, there are 23 tiles that will get you to tenpai with sanshoku, so I'd go with that. Pinfu+riichi do not really give you enough points for a good chance at 2nd or 1st. Once tenpai for sanshoku, I'd probably dama, although I think riichi is totally fine too.
On October 26 2016 17:34 Benawii wrote: If you discard 9s, there are 23 tiles that will get you to tenpai with sanshoku, so I'd go with that. Pinfu+riichi do not really give you enough points for a good chance at 2nd or 1st. Once tenpai for sanshoku, I'd probably dama, although I think riichi is totally fine too.
Good. I did discard the 9s. I think I drew one of 56s soon after and riichi'd for 12000 and first place. Could just have been lucky and a bad call though, so I wanted someone else's opinion.
Hmm, I understand the reasoning since one wouldn't expect to get any other opportunity. However would same thinking hold if the game was still in East round (with same score differences)?
I usually try to prioritize speed riichi over points, unless forced in late-game by placement reasons as shown above, and I wonder if that's a bad habit then.
In Tenhou where 4th place is penalized heavily, there is a bigger focus on speed than building slow, big hands. Often getting to tenpai then riichi is enough to turn the situation in your favor. If the situation above were in east round, if you were the dealer insta-riichi is the only correct choice (let's assume shimocha has not left the game). If kamicha or toimen were the dealer I would lean toward sanshoku, but it's a close call between that and dama pinfu.
On October 28 2016 09:40 Benawii wrote: In Tenhou where 4th place is penalized heavily, there is a bigger focus on speed than building slow, big hands. Often getting to tenpai then riichi is enough to turn the situation in your favor. If the situation above were in east round, if you were the dealer insta-riichi is the only correct choice (let's assume shimocha has not left the game). If kamicha or toimen were the dealer I would lean toward sanshoku, but it's a close call between that and dama pinfu.
You can't let go of every single high value hand either though, or else you'll be hard pressed to win enough to balance out the inevitable matches where you end up last without much of a fault from yourself. Obviously if you were 2 tiles off the sanshoku in this situaltion, it'd be foolish to pursue it. But when you're this close with so many good draws, I think it's important to consider waiting.
Thanks for the responses. Another problem I have difficulty with:
when you are given terrible hand, do you still try to push for low points win or give up outright for maximum safety? If you do try to push for a hand, when is the point you choose to switch to defense?
On October 29 2016 02:03 Hesmyrr wrote: Thanks for the responses. Another problem I have difficulty with:
when you are given terrible hand, do you still try to push for low points win or give up outright for maximum safety? If you do try to push for a hand, when is the point you choose to switch to defense?
The kind of hand where you see your first 13 tiles and start counting the kokushi tiles hoping to be able to force a draw but end up 1 short? Obviously if anyone calls riichi, I'm out. When someone shows discards that hint at a tenpai like dora, I'm out. If everyone else is only discarding honors too, I push a little longer. Though often in a defensive way, like keeping some safe honors over other tiles that have a low chance of making it into my hand (like the 8 in 568) or tiles that won't fit into a quick/nimble/damaten hand. I also value tiles that can be used as safe tiles higher in this situation.
Again I feel like you can't just fold completely right off the bat because that could enable 4th place to surpass you with a slow hand.
When to fold a weak hand seems to be one of the most difficult and important questions in this game though...
I'm at 3+7+1+0 this month. I decided to deal in less and managed to do so, which also meant that I cut down on the riichi calls with narrow waits (regardless of value). It certainly helped prevent frustration and in turn bad play.
My play style has definitely changed over the past few months. I'm favoring a more offensive play style. After all you're not winning if you play defensive frequently when any signs of aggression is shown - any 4dan player can do that. Winning more is what differs the 6dans from the 4dans.
Some not so common tips: * Riichi more often, especially the crappy waits with low points. You always have a chance to win and you put the pressure on your opponents. * Making riskier plays the moment your fall to last place. Don't hope that someone will make a mistake and drop below you. Play offensively and get yourself out of last place quickly and put the pressure on someone else. * In south round, try to play as if you had a 2k deficit if east wind hasn't reached you yet. This is to account for opponent's tsumo mangans that occur more often than not when your east. * Challenge opponents riichi more often. Knowing when and how comes with experience, its hard for me to explain this in words. * Start reviewing your own games with your opponents tiles hidden. You'll start making subjective decisions the moment you see their tiles.
I started playing in the phoenix lobby using the windows client and I can't help but notice something different. This has occured a few times alreay. I sometimes (maybe always) cannot chi right after someone riichi. The action buttons popped up for me but the chi option was greyed out. There was also some extra text in brackets but my Japanese is very poor so I wasn't able to understand what it said.
On November 16 2016 00:34 Rhaegar99 wrote: I started playing in the phoenix lobby using the windows client and I can't help but notice something different. This has occured a few times alreay. I sometimes (maybe always) cannot chi right after someone riichi. The action buttons popped up for me but the chi option was greyed out. There was also some extra text in brackets but my Japanese is very poor so I wasn't able to understand what it said.
Anyone know anything about this?
I haven't noticed that ever, and I have been using the windows client for a long time. Next time you get it, printscreen it. You know that the windows client allows you to choose which tiles to call the chii with (like red 5 or normal 5)? Maybe it has something to do with that?
When there are more than one way to chii (e.g., kamicha discards 3m and you have 1245m), the chii button will be grayed out, and you need to click the two tiles from your hand that you want to be part of the meld. Clicking the tiles also works for pon (but probably not for kan). Try it in test play before playing a real game (middle button to the right of menu button, then first item).
Looks like your right Benawii. Must have been a coincidence that in the few games I've played that I never had a multiway chi expect during riichi. I'm still not use to it though..
So its been about a month and I've played 77 games in the Phoenix lobby going 18-10-23-26. Not the best result. Had to play a handful of tokujou games to keep me away from demoting. Luckily it seems like I'm still capable of beating the competition there.
On December 16 2016 00:35 Rhaegar99 wrote: So its been about a month and I've played 77 games in the Phoenix lobby going 18-10-23-26. Not the best result. Had to play a handful of tokujou games to keep me away from demoting. Luckily it seems like I'm still capable of beating the competition there.
Gee, that's rough. I hit a couple of 4th places after getting back to 4th dan and already had my motivation slump. Does it feel like you're improving with the competition? Also did you get used to the client, was your problem because of multiple possible chii?
Its hard to say. Sometimes I'm overly aggressive cause I feel I need to outplay my opponents. Sometimes I play overly defensive cause I don't want to lose my lead. If anything, it has reinforced my understanding that an aggressive style of playing is much superior than a defensive style, though you gotta control that aggressiveness.
Speed and riichi is king here. Shape doesn't matter too much. No one seems to fear dealing in. In fact it feels like more people deal in in Phoenix lobby as people make more calculated risks.
Client is good. Chi works differently in the client. I'm use to it now though.
Rhaegar invited me and a couple others from TL to a mahjong discord with ~60 people. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to publicly post an invitation link here, but feel free to PM me if you're interested. Nice people, also they are currently working on compiling resources and pushing riichi mahjong in the west.
I believe it's fine for post the invitation link. Here it is: https://discord.gg/n6aYrjx. This is a Discord chat focused on Riichi Mahjong. Both newcomers and veterans are welcome!
On January 27 2018 13:27 JSH wrote: Oh that's really cool, looks kinda messy though
It's just that the font is too big.
On January 27 2018 16:57 spinesheath wrote: Join the discord linked by Benawii on this page. Good level of activity, helpful people and easy to set up a community game.
Eww, Discord. That's for the people that aren't cool enough for IRC.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img2.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire4/e4188ec2affe392a3887a9b0a64dadc01238983108_full.jpg)
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Me and my friends play it IRL sometimes.
mistakes (such as misclicking a button which causes me to forego fanpai pon, and walking into blatant chinitsu) and unexpected end result.
If we do manage to get this thing though, what client should we use? Touhou is awesome, but not really optimal if you want to play with specific player...![[image loading]](http://i51.tinypic.com/oarryr.jpg)
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. Rest is me completely losing my composure, trying to push every hand in risky fashion in order to get the first place I "deserved" back, and promptly failing down to 4th.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8xssS.png)
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I didn't even know I wasn't playing in dan room until the first game was over.
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OMA(-9.0) D:sankamo(+49.0)![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/sv787r.jpg)
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智花*(-38.0) C:saw(+55.0)![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fQhfty4.jpg)
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