EPT@ Brees: Yea the ones that really got to me are more AP based with Rylai's/Rod of Ages (I think, I remember glancing at his items and I was like "wtf Rylai's?", ya I have no clue how to play as Singed). The couple of games I really had trouble w/ Singed was where one of the lanes really fed him =(.
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ArC_man
United States2798 Posts
@ Brees: Yea the ones that really got to me are more AP based with Rylai's/Rod of Ages (I think, I remember glancing at his items and I was like "wtf Rylai's?", ya I have no clue how to play as Singed). The couple of games I really had trouble w/ Singed was where one of the lanes really fed him =(. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On May 11 2010 16:37 ArC_man wrote: @ Southlight: How would I force a 5v5 team fight early on? Is it as simple as just gathering everyone in a lane and pushing? What are some examples so I can try applying them in games? Or gathering everyone to clean through their jungle, try to gank, etc. Singed shines in skirmishes where his relative lack of CC doesn't look bad, and AP Singed is pretty squishy for a long while. If you still can't win, it means your team build is just not very good :p | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Purely tank Singed is pretty bad, like people have been saying. I usually invest at least 2 items in AP (RoA/Void Staff or RoA/Lich Bane). Rest is into HP and MR/Armor. Not a fan of Rylai's though. Singed does need HP and AP to do well but the secondary effects aren't as good. I'll take magic pen or MS/MR over slow procs. Best idea I have of countering a Singed is getting a strong magic user who can burst into the same lane. Someone like Anivia or Annie. Burst Singed down regularly before he has the appropriate MR and he isn't as likely to run amok in the lane and poison everything. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
How's this relevant? Well if they have a Singed he might farm top. Fine and even better if your team has a teleport hero (so he'll 1v1 Singed, but he'll get to the teamfight faster than Singed), but you're forcing a 4v4 teamfight while the other team is down a tank, and in order to defend bottom (or mid) tower the team will have to trek into the jungle, past all the bushes to actually defend the tower. You can easily ruin 4 players like this because they get underfarmed and lose way too much initiative as you threaten/push two lanes. ^-- This is a pretty basic "aggressive" teamfight maneuver, btw. | ||
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rredtooth
5464 Posts
On May 11 2010 16:50 NeoIllusions wrote: ... it's really not that hard to force a teamfight. if you're 5 man roaming why would you attack a tower that has 4 heroes hugging it? just go attack a different one and catch them in the jungle moving over to defend it (or just kill the tower). or go do dragon over and over again. or go pick up all 4 neutral buffs and THEN push the 4 tower hugging champs. or go 5 man gank the singed. just do stuff that forces the other team to either respond or fall behind.Forcing a 5v5 fight isn't always that easy. If I see the other team gathering to push, 4 tower hugging champs + full hp tower can hold off 5 champs. That'd definitely buy me (as Singed) time to farm at least 2-3 full waves of creep before running back to help defend. Purely tank Singed is pretty bad, like people have been saying. I usually invest at least 2 items in AP (RoA/Void Staff or RoA/Lich Bane). Rest is into HP and MR/Armor. Not a fan of Rylai's though. Singed does need HP and AP to do well but the secondary effects aren't as good. I'll take magic pen or MS/MR over slow procs. Best idea I have of countering a Singed is getting a strong magic user who can burst into the same lane. Someone like Anivia or Annie. Burst Singed down regularly before he has the appropriate MR and he isn't as likely to run amok in the lane and poison everything. edit: not to mention the fact that sometimes you can literally force a teamfight by picking off one hero and forcing an engagement. ashe arrow, gragas ult, blitzcrank, shen imbaness, etc. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Edit: By the way if you're wondering, the only way to respond once you've lost initiative like that is to either suck it up and fight them in the jungle (thus responding to the teamfight) or to trade towers (5v1 the top tower), but even this is just a temporary halt, because you'll be forced to teamfight for mid tower etc. It's hard to play passive defensive without engaging in teamfights, and only a select few heroes are very capable of farming like how Singed would like to farm without screwing your team over in the process (TF, Shen, Panth primarily). It's why the first two (Panth is a meh hero even with his mobility) are highly-regarded. On the flip side as redtooth said, heroes like Blitzcrank are absolutely fantastic for forcing and breaking teamfights. | ||
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rredtooth
5464 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
None of the map control heroes you listed are going to stop a Singed with a Catalyst from farming. Not to mention out of Support, DPS and Tank, if you're fighting at a tower, the tank is actually the class you can do without seeing as how you're not trying to initiate. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
And you're not supposed to fight 5 v 4 towers. It's very, very, very easy to force the 4 on the tower OFF the tower. If you've never seen it done, you're playing terrible players, I'm sorry to say. Both redtooth and I explained the most basic of teamfight strategies in taking initiative and forcing people off of hugging the tower. Edit: Incidentally it's also why it's tough playing against one map control hero and a Janna without having one or the other on your team yourself. If your team engages an unfavorable 4v4, and you call in your Singed or whatever hero to try to collapse 5v4, Janna's ridiculous at retreating. If your Singed or whatever decides to keep farming, and your team engages in 4v4, and the map control hero teleports in to make it 5v4, you're looking at multiple deaths and several lost towers. | ||
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rredtooth
5464 Posts
On May 11 2010 17:07 NeoIllusions wrote: this shouldn't happen. unless its SIGNIFICANTLY advantageous for the 5 (like soraka, ez, janna, ashe with blue buffs or something). here's what you do. you group up the 5 and push mid. you force 4+ to defend or face losing the tower. then you move to another lane and push that. they either sit at mid and twiddle their thumbs while a tower dies or chase you to the other lane. you can either get in an advantageous spot (top/bottom are MUCH harder to defend) or catch them moving over in the jungle. team comp doesn't matter.Team comp matters too much on how successful or poor 4 + tower v 5 will be. But I'm going to say that 4 champs will typically be able to hold just fine. Depending on towers' HP, I decide when it's ok for me to solo push/farm a side lane. None of the map control heroes you listed are going to stop a Singed with a Catalyst from farming. Not to mention out of Support, DPS and Tank, if you're fighting at a tower, the tank is actually the class you can do without seeing as how you're not trying to initiate. or just do dragon. benefits from dragon > singe's farming. if you want a teamfight, you can usually force it. the only situation i can imagine where you can't force a teamfight is when dragon is down and all their outer turrets are dead. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On May 11 2010 17:14 redtooth wrote: if you want a teamfight, you can usually force it. the only situation i can imagine where you can't force a teamfight is when dragon is down and all their outer turrets are dead. You can force it pretty easily. If all their outer turrets are dead the only way they can get out is by teamfighting. You can very easily press your advantage at this point by farming all the jungle, controlling dragon, and even getting Baron. Baron is also the easiest way to force a team fight against a turtling team. Edit: Also if you're playing against a competent team, getting Oracles and clearing out key wards (like Baron ward) is a good way to make them paranoid and start walking out. This goes back to the Baron thing. Because getting Baron will heavily swing the game in your favour. | ||
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rredtooth
5464 Posts
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rredtooth
5464 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On May 11 2010 17:19 redtooth wrote: and if you can't kill a pushing singed with 5 heroes then something is wrong with your team. On May 11 2010 16:47 Southlight wrote: If you still can't win, it means your team build is just not very good :p I love how we keep coming to the same point and conclusion LOL. Well slightly different nuance with "team" and "team build" but yeah. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Point is that a smart Singed isn't going to farm when it's detrimental to his team. Dragon and runes are down, that's probably the best time for Singed to solo push. I'm top, I tell my team to def bot. If your team chooses not to engage and go mid instead, Singed with Insanity Potion can solo a tower by himself pretty fast. If you play the waiting game, it's 5 champs not getting much exp vs 4 of my team. Run mid to push down that tower, 4 from bot push to trade towers there. Singed in that situation is still pushing his team ahead. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
The jungle/dragon/gank strat is great but you really have to have a strong way to initiate to prevent tower loss. I suppose good team comp doesn't have this problem, though. | ||
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fspikec
United States30 Posts
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
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fspikec
United States30 Posts
On May 11 2010 22:07 RoosterSamurai wrote: At the moment it's telling me the server is unavailable x.x Big patch, new champion, new skins, balance changes, etc.... info is here http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=110070 | ||
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