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4x doran's + LW + Merc treads is like, 5k. at this point the game is over. Would you rather have Merc Treads LW and a BF sword? +36 dmg, -480 hp -16% life steal?
I will start off by saying it is not like I have not tried every single other twitch build out there, twitch was the first hero I bought and I've got close to 100 games with him now. I've tried avarice, which is terrible. I've rushed IE. I've rushed BC. I've gone mobility wit's end, I've done just about everything outside making malady and committing suicide.
It's not like I just randomly decided to mass doran's blade, either. I constantly try to compare this game to DotA and I could not figure out what this game parallel to the DotA/HoN Bracer (114 hp, .5 armor, something like 60? mana). A friend of mine, who has been playing LoL for a ridiculously long time pointed the doran's items out to me. I saw the possibilities and switched immediately from my shield -> boots -> LW/IE build, the results were staggering. You are essentially a god among men for the early game. You have the most HP in the game, you deal the most damage in the game, combined with an AOE snare and flash/cleanse you have amazing chasing potential.
I do not think that playing twitch suits itself to a go mid and farm til you have LW/IE then crush souls play style. I much prefer, and am more successful with, an aggressive, gank oriented, map control play style.
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On March 23 2010 02:44 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 02:33 oberon wrote:
Looking for advice on my pub game Sivir carry build. What I have so far:
Vampiric scepter
Boots of Speed
Long Sword
Long Sword
Recurve Bow
Dagger
Berserker's Boots
B.F. Sword
Last Whisper
Giant's Belt
Bloodthirster
Ruby Crystal
Phage
Frozen Mallet
After this, we're usually endgame. Do I go for banshee's? Guardian angel? IE? Another bloodthirster? PD? GRB? There seem to be lots of "good" options, but no "great" ones. Scepter is a bad opener on her. I think it's generally pretty bad nowadays, but especially with the last range nerf, a decent Ashe or Trist will prevent you from getting any sort of early autoattacking. I'd open sapphire crystal, then build to merc treads, LW, and BT in whatever order makes sense, then make my sapphire into a banshee's veil, then just stack BTs or get Aegis + Starks if you're feeling helpful for the team.
This is all very reasonable, which is why it doesn't work in pub games. Anyway, autoattack is for creeps, boomerang blade is for trist/Ashe/whoever. The key is to avoid using BB except to push them back until you're level 3 or even 5 and have 2-3 points in it. That saves mana for when it really hits hard.
That said, I've been considering dropping BT, as it comes in late and forces a BF, which takes a long time to get. In that case, I might go long sword first, and replace the BF/BT with pickaxe/madred's or something. No life steal, but life steal isn't really that great anyway.
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On March 23 2010 02:59 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 02:44 Mogwai wrote:On March 23 2010 02:33 oberon wrote:
Looking for advice on my pub game Sivir carry build. What I have so far:
Vampiric scepter
Boots of Speed
Long Sword
Long Sword
Recurve Bow
Dagger
Berserker's Boots
B.F. Sword
Last Whisper
Giant's Belt
Bloodthirster
Ruby Crystal
Phage
Frozen Mallet
After this, we're usually endgame. Do I go for banshee's? Guardian angel? IE? Another bloodthirster? PD? GRB? There seem to be lots of "good" options, but no "great" ones. Scepter is a bad opener on her. I think it's generally pretty bad nowadays, but especially with the last range nerf, a decent Ashe or Trist will prevent you from getting any sort of early autoattacking. I'd open sapphire crystal, then build to merc treads, LW, and BT in whatever order makes sense, then make my sapphire into a banshee's veil, then just stack BTs or get Aegis + Starks if you're feeling helpful for the team. This is all very reasonable, which is why it doesn't work in pub games. Anyway, autoattack is for creeps, boomerang blade is for trist/Ashe/whoever. The key is to avoid using BB except to push them back until you're level 3 or even 5 and have 2-3 points in it. That saves mana for when it really hits hard. That said, I've been considering dropping BT, as it comes in late and forces a BF, which takes a long time to get. In that case, I might go long sword first, and replace the BF/BT with pickaxe/madred's or something. No life steal, but life steal isn't really that great anyway.
You could just ignore damage all together and play god-tier aura sivir with chalice/merc/starks/aegis/LW. 
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On March 23 2010 02:56 swiftterror wrote:
I do not think that playing twitch suits itself to a go mid and farm til you have LW/IE then crush souls play style. I much prefer, and am more successful with, an aggressive, gank oriented, map control play style.
You're not supposed to sit mid and farm ;p Although with Twitch if you're stuck solo mid a lot of times you're left with doing that, because moving elsewhere just leads to mid being pushed, but that's why Twitch isn't very good solo mid, hah.
For me it's always a case of rush LW -> Gank, and then at some point I'll need to sit down and farm for BF sword before I'm useful late-game. The notable exception is when I need to change my gameplan around the game flow, such as going LW -> EC against healers or going LW -> Negatron against nukes. The reality of my (team's) playstyle is that Twitch is a DPS character, and while his ganking power is great early-mid game, most people expect you to DPS their team down. To that end it's inevitable that at some point in the game you sit down and farm up that BF sword. There are, after all, very few heroes in this game that can seamlessly transition from early to mid to late game.
I don't know that I'd prefer BF sword over all the perks of 3 DSwords, but the point isn't that BF Sword > 3 DSwords, it's that a faster IE > 3 DSwords. It's why if I don't feel like I have the time to finish BF I'll buy the 18% crit, then Pickaxe, THEN go for BFSword, or even delay BF for a Negatron.
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On March 23 2010 02:59 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 02:44 Mogwai wrote:On March 23 2010 02:33 oberon wrote:
Looking for advice on my pub game Sivir carry build. What I have so far:
Vampiric scepter
Boots of Speed
Long Sword
Long Sword
Recurve Bow
Dagger
Berserker's Boots
B.F. Sword
Last Whisper
Giant's Belt
Bloodthirster
Ruby Crystal
Phage
Frozen Mallet
After this, we're usually endgame. Do I go for banshee's? Guardian angel? IE? Another bloodthirster? PD? GRB? There seem to be lots of "good" options, but no "great" ones. Scepter is a bad opener on her. I think it's generally pretty bad nowadays, but especially with the last range nerf, a decent Ashe or Trist will prevent you from getting any sort of early autoattacking. I'd open sapphire crystal, then build to merc treads, LW, and BT in whatever order makes sense, then make my sapphire into a banshee's veil, then just stack BTs or get Aegis + Starks if you're feeling helpful for the team. This is all very reasonable, which is why it doesn't work in pub games. Anyway, autoattack is for creeps, boomerang blade is for trist/Ashe/whoever. The key is to avoid using BB except to push them back until you're level 3 or even 5 and have 2-3 points in it. That saves mana for when it really hits hard. That said, I've been considering dropping BT, as it comes in late and forces a BF, which takes a long time to get. In that case, I might go long sword first, and replace the BF/BT with pickaxe/madred's or something. No life steal, but life steal isn't really that great anyway.
I'm saying that a decent Ashe/Trist will prevent you from autoattacking creeps. They just shoot you from far away and push you back off of creeps. The thing about sivir is that straight AD/AS is at a real premium, because that's what your bouncing blade scales well with. With her farming potential, you can't do better than LW into BTs for maxing your damage output in team fights.
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At this point, Corki, Nidalee, Ezrael, and some spam casters (mainly Karthus) will bash Sivir's brains out if she tries to auto-attack, hahah. Not to mention even Mord destroys her.
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Well, pre-6 Nidalee probably won't be able to keep you off of creeps that much... when she hits 6 though, good fucking luck sivir :p
Does mord have any use at the higher levels of play? I still think he's annoying as fuck in the early game and clearly is useful if you can succeed with his ult, but I mostly get pissed at mord early and then just take a dump on him later in the game, so I can't figure out if he has any competitive implications.
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On March 23 2010 03:08 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 02:56 swiftterror wrote:
I do not think that playing twitch suits itself to a go mid and farm til you have LW/IE then crush souls play style. I much prefer, and am more successful with, an aggressive, gank oriented, map control play style. You're not supposed to sit mid and farm ;p Although with Twitch if you're stuck solo mid a lot of times you're left with doing that, because moving elsewhere just leads to mid being pushed, but that's why Twitch isn't very good solo mid, hah. For me it's always a case of rush LW -> Gank, and then at some point I'll need to sit down and farm for BF sword before I'm useful late-game. The notable exception is when I need to change my gameplan around the game flow, such as going LW -> EC against healers or going LW -> Negatron against nukes. The reality of my (team's) playstyle is that Twitch is a DPS character, and while his ganking power is great early-mid game, most people expect you to DPS their team down. To that end it's inevitable that at some point in the game you sit down and farm up that BF sword. There are, after all, very few heroes in this game that can seamlessly transition from early to mid to late game. I don't know that I'd prefer BF sword over all the perks of 3 DSwords, but the point isn't that BF Sword > 3 DSwords, it's that a faster IE > 3 DSwords. It's why if I don't feel like I have the time to finish BF I'll buy the 18% crit, then Pickaxe, THEN go for BFSword, or even delay BF for a Negatron.
Doran's/Merc/LW is still 3700. That's way too long to be sitting mid. Even moving out with boots1/LW/Doran's is 2900. And most likely you'll be level 12 with 1300 hp while everyone else is level 10 with 1300 hp. The advantage is gone. I feel that moving out with my standard doran's x5 and boots1 is slow sometimes, I can't imagine delaying it any further.
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On March 23 2010 03:18 Mogwai wrote:
Well, pre-6 Nidalee probably won't be able to keep you off of creeps that much... when she hits 6 though, good fucking luck sivir :p
Does mord have any use at the higher levels of play? I still think he's annoying as fuck in the early game and clearly is useful if you can succeed with his ult, but I mostly get pissed at mord early and then just take a dump on him later in the game, so I can't figure out if he has any competitive implications.
She outranges Sivir and heals herself. She'll just pewpew you out of the creeps, and fast.
Mord is not very useful at higher levels of play. He's like Poppy to me - if he's fed, he can be a real gamechanging bitch, but you have to be fed or really f-ing good, and if you're really f-ing good it probably doesn't matter what hero you're playing.
On March 23 2010 03:18 swiftterror wrote:
Doran's/Merc/LW is still 3700. That's way too long to be sitting mid. Even moving out with boots1/LW/Doran's is 2900. And most likely you'll be level 12 with 1300 hp while everyone else is level 10 with 1300 hp. The advantage is gone. I feel that moving out with my standard doran's x5 and boots1 is slow sometimes, I can't imagine delaying it any further.
I don't play solo-mid Twitch, for the simple reasons that it's hard as hell to slip away unnoticed, you lose to the majority of heroes 1v1, and if you go away to gank they'll destroy mid tower in a flash.
I side-lane Twitch, often with an Alistar, and rush LW while last-hitting most creep and getting massive lane control. When I've got Boot1 + LW I can go gank, but that's about 2300? Lot of times I can just push down the tower though, and that gives incredible amounts of map control. And when laned with a stunner there're lots of times I can get Boot1 + LW in like 10 minutes. Pretty nasty combo.
After that I can dick around doing whatever I want for 5-10 minutes, at which point I'll be done with Treads and getting closer to IE, and most games I'll hit LW+IE within 30 minutes.
In other words, we're probably looking at a gigantic playstyle difference ;p I would never run 4x DSwords. You would probably not be content side laning.
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On March 23 2010 03:24 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 03:18 Mogwai wrote:
Well, pre-6 Nidalee probably won't be able to keep you off of creeps that much... when she hits 6 though, good fucking luck sivir :p
Does mord have any use at the higher levels of play? I still think he's annoying as fuck in the early game and clearly is useful if you can succeed with his ult, but I mostly get pissed at mord early and then just take a dump on him later in the game, so I can't figure out if he has any competitive implications. She outranges Sivir and heals herself. She'll just pewpew you out of the creeps, and fast.
what's Nidalee's range?
I honestly haven't been playing her much recently because she's not TF, but I always remember having issues with her having low range for a ranged DPS.
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I side lane anytime there's a better solo, gladly. I agree with you twitch is ass terrible mid. But in a solo queue, or even duo queue most of the time, you do what has to be done.
If I remember correctly I sidelane'd a 5man TL queue with you as malphite, twice.
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I don't remember, but I believe it was as long as Sivir's one pre-nerf, which is why pre-nerf Nidalee was still > Sivir (you'll trade hits, but Nid can heal yourself and gets an attack speed buff, while you can only hit her once with Boomerang, and that doesn't make up for the disparity in speed and heal).
Now with the Sivir range nerf Nidalee is very much >> Sivir and it won't even be close.
Edit:
Yes you did o/
Edit2:
Leaguecraft says her attack range is 525, which confirms by belief that it was longer than Sivir's pre-nerf. And obviously now 125 disparity, hah.
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\o
Changing subjects.. do you have any tips for the new TF? I've just recently bought him and without mana/5 runes, I'm probably going to play him with my ArP/Dodge/MRlvl runes purely PaC/SD unless I can just go chalice or something and have it cover all of my mana needs.
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On March 23 2010 03:01 swiftterror wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 02:59 oberon wrote:On March 23 2010 02:44 Mogwai wrote:On March 23 2010 02:33 oberon wrote:
Looking for advice on my pub game Sivir carry build. What I have so far:
Vampiric scepter
Boots of Speed
Long Sword
Long Sword
Recurve Bow
Dagger
Berserker's Boots
B.F. Sword
Last Whisper
Giant's Belt
Bloodthirster
Ruby Crystal
Phage
Frozen Mallet
After this, we're usually endgame. Do I go for banshee's? Guardian angel? IE? Another bloodthirster? PD? GRB? There seem to be lots of "good" options, but no "great" ones. Scepter is a bad opener on her. I think it's generally pretty bad nowadays, but especially with the last range nerf, a decent Ashe or Trist will prevent you from getting any sort of early autoattacking. I'd open sapphire crystal, then build to merc treads, LW, and BT in whatever order makes sense, then make my sapphire into a banshee's veil, then just stack BTs or get Aegis + Starks if you're feeling helpful for the team. This is all very reasonable, which is why it doesn't work in pub games. Anyway, autoattack is for creeps, boomerang blade is for trist/Ashe/whoever. The key is to avoid using BB except to push them back until you're level 3 or even 5 and have 2-3 points in it. That saves mana for when it really hits hard. That said, I've been considering dropping BT, as it comes in late and forces a BF, which takes a long time to get. In that case, I might go long sword first, and replace the BF/BT with pickaxe/madred's or something. No life steal, but life steal isn't really that great anyway. You could just ignore damage all together and play god-tier aura sivir with chalice/merc/starks/aegis/LW.
This requires a team that takes advantage of it. This pretty much only happens in 5-mans, from my experience.
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I've not had a good game with TF yet, so I shall not say anything here
Mog mentioned stuff about TF a few pages back, though, I think?
Edit:
On March 19 2010 00:24 Mogwai wrote:
I've concluded that quick sheen is bad on new TF. It's good when working towards trinity force later in the game, but I think you're better off going Stark's first, then LW, then worrying about Trinity. I've also concluded that WCs are not worth it early without sheen, just do ewewerewewwwqqqqqrr for skills. I've completely stomped the last two games I've played using this AS and Armor Pen stacking build. Runes I think should be armor pen marks, dodge seals, flat CD or CD/level or MR/level glyphs, and flat HP quints. 21/9/0 masteries (3 crit, 1 AP/level, 4 CD redux, 2 AS, 1 Magic Pen, 3 Armor Pen, 3 damage, 3 crit damage, 1 havok, 3 magic resist, 1 armor, 4 dodge, 1 nimbleness). Flash and Cleanse for summoner skills, though I can see exhaust over cleanse if that's how you roll. Open Boots + 3 HP pots. Farm up to Starks, get Merc Treads next, then LW. Here get Banshee's if needed, otherwise straight to Trinity Force. I've experimented with GRB, and it's a respectable way to build up your damage, but I think LW is better for the mid game and Trinity is worth the extra investment in the end game due to his relatively poor AP scaling now. I am now also operating under the theory that Brutalizer is an excellent choice if you need more damage output for cheap at any point in the game, as this build still has room to gain from the CD reduction.
I've really found that the new red and blue PaCs eliminate the need for WCs when farming. You do plenty fine on standard creep waves with just autoattack, and when you're facing a large built up creep wave, you can go nuts with red cards and then replenish your mana with blue cards on the next wave. Stacked deck triggers on towers, so you will absolutely go to town on towers with the new TF.
Oh and Sword of the Divine is good when the other team has a Jax, but is a huge waste otherwise. Activating it before gold carding Jax guarantees you the stun and then you get extra armor pen with absurd AS to quickly DPS him down. I see a lot of TFs now going it regardless of the other teams comp, but it just isn't worth it... you're much better off making the most of the attacks leading up to every 4th attack.
There you go.
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I tried to play TF with LW and Sword of Divine. Kills tower really quickly and has a nice dps/survivability. Not as good as the pre patch godlike TF but still a pickable character I guess.
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you can't, build him AD. AP is still viable and still good, but I swear by AD/AS TF. I do 21/9/0 masteries, ArP/Dodge/CDpL/flat HP Quints (well, not all my quints are there yet, but that's the target :p). I open PaC + Long Sword/1HP pot on side lanes, and SD + boots/3HP pot on Mid. From there, skills go SD > PaC > WCs > ult, with of course a diversion for 1 point in ult at 6.
Either way, my next item is recurve bow, if I opened Long Sword, I'm going LW, if I opened boots, I'm going Starks. After my first big AS Item, I get Merc Treads, then I either stack AS/ArP by getting the one I didn't get first between LW and Starks, or I just imediately go sheen > phage > Trinity. Honestly, I end up just stacking AS more often than I'd like to admit, but it's been hugely effective. I can't actually remember the last game I lost doing this build, tbh, I don't think I have lost since switching to it... I think I'm 14-1 in my last 15 and the one I lost I was trying a doran's stacking build with him :p.
EDIT: damn, SL all over that one :p. So yea, the only stuff that's changed since then on my thoughts are that:
1. Going Trinity after the first AS item works well if you're farming particularly well
2. I tested Brutalizer after first AS when I'm having a hard time actually dishing out damage and it's acceptable. I wouldn't recommend it if you can farm fairly well, but with this rune/mastery setup, you like the extra CD redux and the rest is helpful. It's just a way to break out of a slumping game with him.
3. Red cards are great for famring, but without AP, blue cards are just a way to break even on activating PaC. So like, you can feign aggression with activating PaC early and rushing at an opponent, then when they get off the creeps, pick a blue and get your mana back.
4. I'm always sorry when I replace cleanse with ignite or exhaust. I think this is a playstyle thing still, but jeez, I tried each a couple times and feel like I died like twice in each game cause I didn't have cleanse.
EDIT2: oh yea, and if it's not readily apparent, at like, level 2, after getting your SD procced, if you PaC, you can just pick a blue and hit them for a solid 150 for free, with is just insane harassment mid. On side lanes, do this with a gold and they'll just instantly die if your lanemate can also output some damage. And in this vein, on sidelanes, focusing on PaC over SD makes some sense and is really just a preference call between damage (SD) and stun duration(PaC).
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On March 23 2010 03:51 iG.ClouD wrote:
I tried to play TF with LW and Sword of Divine. Kills tower really quickly and has a nice dps/survivability. Not as good as the pre patch godlike TF but still a pickable character I guess.
Bleh, I'ma stop editing my last post. The problem here is sword of the divine. People think this is some sort of insane synergy, but it's really not worth it unless you need to take out a Jax with huge dodge and even then, it's really only a late game thing. The new TF is probably a little worse, but the whole teleport anywhere and stun them for 2 seconds and then output high tier DPS is still just stupid as fuck and will stomp most games.
tl;dr TF might be worse than Jax now, but he's still better than everyone else.
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I prefer Twitch because Twitch can wipe out entire teams.
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I love playing TF vs. Twitch :p. He goes mia and it's just like, get a gold card, ult, get near him, stun, SD abuse, stun again, SD abuse, free kill :p.
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EPT
