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TL Chess Match - Page 13

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cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
October 23 2009 14:48 GMT
#241
Hey guys I know this is book here and all, but what's wrong about ...c5? I know Bb4 develops a piece, but I was thinking ...c5 has the support of the bishop and possible position for it.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
Athos
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2484 Posts
October 23 2009 15:37 GMT
#242
Bb4
+ Show Spoiler +
actually was thinking about this on my own
iloveambiguity
Profile Joined August 2009
United States81 Posts
October 23 2009 16:10 GMT
#243
c5 is playable, bb4, qb3 i think concedes the bishop too early, Ne4 is a good line here, i vote Ne4, go fetch the analysis from some book, I am too lazy to regurgitate opening theory... Bb4 is a positional mistake, because bishops are ususally slightly better, I would avoid bb4. My vote:Ne4
Spazer
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada8036 Posts
October 23 2009 16:27 GMT
#244
I vote Bf8-Bb4.
Liquipedia
lightman
Profile Joined April 2005
United States731 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-23 17:37:59
October 23 2009 17:37 GMT
#245
here's another line on playing 5.... Bb4

+ Show Spoiler +


5 g3 Bb4
6 Bd2 c5
7 dxc5 Bxc5
8 Bg2 0-0
9 0-0 Nc6
10 Bg5 Na5 ! (suggested by me)

the line I posted before....

5 g3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bg2 d6
8 0-0 a5!
9 Qc2 Nbd7
10 Rad1 Qe7
11 a3 Bxc3
12 Bxc3 Ne4 !

Chuck Norris owns the greatest Poker Face of all-time. It helped him win the 1983 WSOP holding just a Get out of Jail Free Monopoloy card, and a green #4 card from the game UNO, against an AAA KK flop and his rival folding AK after Chuck raised him ALL-IN
benjammin
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2728 Posts
October 23 2009 17:49 GMT
#246
i'm down with Bb4
wash uffitizi, drive me to firenze
The Raurosaur
Profile Joined April 2009
198 Posts
October 23 2009 18:08 GMT
#247
On October 24 2009 02:49 benjammin wrote:
i'm down with Bb4


Yeah. Or Bd6 maybe?
:(){:|:&};:
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
October 23 2009 18:44 GMT
#248
Bb4

+ Show Spoiler +
This g3 seems slow as does most Fiancetto positions so black can now take initiative. The move sets up opposing Fiancetto bishops, the ugliness of f3 in such a situation should mean that knights on e4 will probably be safe from pawns.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
October 23 2009 22:27 GMT
#249
Never Bd6, you cannot block your d-pawn because you need it to advance to d6 or d5 fairly soon so as to complete development.
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-23 22:50:16
October 23 2009 22:49 GMT
#250
On October 23 2009 22:56 lightman wrote:
ok guys let's relax. first of all


+ Show Spoiler +


5 .... Bxf3 is regarded as 5 ...Bxf3 ? -in chess a question mark means "why?"-

taking the knight and doubling white pawns won't make us stronger or him weaker.

instead, it makes us weaker and him one "not so important knght" down. that line would likely make us play to force a draw

the whole object of our Bb7 is to keep the active bishop attacking a very important line and eventually looking forward to take an important piece or be part of an important exchange.

to put it simple:

black's bishop in Bb7 is way stronger than white's Knight in f3 ... so why give it away?

.


and to the guy that keeps saying this is a ponziani opening.....





+ Show Spoiler +

I've always been a fan of the possibilities this can lead to for your knights. But it does require quite sharp play, so I suppose i'd agree anyways with 5...Bb4 since it keeps it simpler and is a solid move.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
October 23 2009 23:38 GMT
#251
On October 23 2009 22:27 Kazius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2009 20:42 jfazz wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

I vote for 5...Bf8-b4.

Reasoning: this move actively develops our kingside, allowing us to castle more quickly than white can, actually giving us a slight developmental advantage piece wise, vs. his space advantage and slight initiative. This move limits his central mobility, while not committing ourselves to anything too much - we still had not moved the d-pawn, thus retaining the ability to play the breaking move d5 in one movement, potentially saving a tempo. Further, the b8 knight still has its full range of developmental options.

Now, for those wondering about 6. a3 Be7 is a simple transposition to the Petrosian line, which is in no way detrimental to us. It does win him a half tempi, in sofar as he gets the a3 move for free if instead we had played Be7 directly, but it also gives us scope for counterplay on the weekend b3 (say, Nc8-d4-b3 for example) square later in the game via knight play, or even as a positional weakness in a king and pawn endgame. Its a tiny detail not really worth any major consideration, but I just want to illustrate its not ALL bad.

Finally, I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY against the bishop exchange, 5...Bxf3. Its a terrible move that offends my classical sensibilities. Why?
1) we exchange a well positioned bishop with immense latent power for a currently limited knight, ceding the bishop pair for no reason. While this opening does lead to interesting knight play, that is only a possiblity, while the bishops are always valuable. There is no sense in giving away any edge this early.
2) The doubled pawns ARE NOT an issue for white in this pawn strucuture. It adds additional protection to his kingside, limiting our own counterplay, and actually giving him a lever for assaulting our kingside via f-file pawn sacrifice. Even if it is never utilized offensively, it will still be traded off in the endgame, to no real detriment. Furthermore, this opens the e-file for pressure from his rooks.
3) The exchange of our light squae bishop stars to give him nagging play on our own light squares. Notably, this will accelerate his ability to play d5, which we cannot allow. It is an even exchange without benefit at the moment, but should it be allowed to gain momentum, and should he then be able to play d5-d6, its all over. We want to keep as much control over the central d5 and e4 squares as possible, while we can, so as to limit his ability to gain space and then momentum for an attack. I should mention that e4-e5 is also a threat if we are not careful.

Id like to see us play ...Bb4, then aim to play either ...d6 or ...d5 as appopriate, castling soon after. With a safe classical position, we can then look at various methods of generating action in the centre, either via the standard ...c5 pawn lever (which is why I dont really want to play the knight to c6 if we can help it, I would rather wait and move him to d7, reinforcing our own counter-centre, and the crucial knight on f6) or through the more ambitious ...f5.

Im going to go and look up some classical Korchnoi games from this position, so as to find some methods for attacking. Ill be back.

Did you read the first sentence in this thread? POST ANALYSIS IN SPOILERS... Vekzel won't (literally) read our strategy that way.

My vote goes for: ... Bb4
for the reasons in my last post which are still relevant.

The same applies to you... if you're quoting his post then you should spoiler it. I edited your post for you in this case.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-24 00:31:50
October 24 2009 00:31 GMT
#252
Bf8-Bb4

+ Show Spoiler +

Just a tidy move in the spirit of the opening, if he plays a3, BxNc3 and it's a pretty good position for you, since it's a good variation of a nimzo-indian.
aka Teutonica
Kazius
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Israel1456 Posts
October 24 2009 07:39 GMT
#253
On October 24 2009 08:38 HnR)Insane wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2009 22:27 Kazius wrote:
On October 23 2009 20:42 jfazz wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

I vote for 5...Bf8-b4.

Reasoning: this move actively develops our kingside, allowing us to castle more quickly than white can, actually giving us a slight developmental advantage piece wise, vs. his space advantage and slight initiative. This move limits his central mobility, while not committing ourselves to anything too much - we still had not moved the d-pawn, thus retaining the ability to play the breaking move d5 in one movement, potentially saving a tempo. Further, the b8 knight still has its full range of developmental options.

Now, for those wondering about 6. a3 Be7 is a simple transposition to the Petrosian line, which is in no way detrimental to us. It does win him a half tempi, in sofar as he gets the a3 move for free if instead we had played Be7 directly, but it also gives us scope for counterplay on the weekend b3 (say, Nc8-d4-b3 for example) square later in the game via knight play, or even as a positional weakness in a king and pawn endgame. Its a tiny detail not really worth any major consideration, but I just want to illustrate its not ALL bad.

Finally, I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY against the bishop exchange, 5...Bxf3. Its a terrible move that offends my classical sensibilities. Why?
1) we exchange a well positioned bishop with immense latent power for a currently limited knight, ceding the bishop pair for no reason. While this opening does lead to interesting knight play, that is only a possiblity, while the bishops are always valuable. There is no sense in giving away any edge this early.
2) The doubled pawns ARE NOT an issue for white in this pawn strucuture. It adds additional protection to his kingside, limiting our own counterplay, and actually giving him a lever for assaulting our kingside via f-file pawn sacrifice. Even if it is never utilized offensively, it will still be traded off in the endgame, to no real detriment. Furthermore, this opens the e-file for pressure from his rooks.
3) The exchange of our light squae bishop stars to give him nagging play on our own light squares. Notably, this will accelerate his ability to play d5, which we cannot allow. It is an even exchange without benefit at the moment, but should it be allowed to gain momentum, and should he then be able to play d5-d6, its all over. We want to keep as much control over the central d5 and e4 squares as possible, while we can, so as to limit his ability to gain space and then momentum for an attack. I should mention that e4-e5 is also a threat if we are not careful.

Id like to see us play ...Bb4, then aim to play either ...d6 or ...d5 as appopriate, castling soon after. With a safe classical position, we can then look at various methods of generating action in the centre, either via the standard ...c5 pawn lever (which is why I dont really want to play the knight to c6 if we can help it, I would rather wait and move him to d7, reinforcing our own counter-centre, and the crucial knight on f6) or through the more ambitious ...f5.

Im going to go and look up some classical Korchnoi games from this position, so as to find some methods for attacking. Ill be back.

Did you read the first sentence in this thread? POST ANALYSIS IN SPOILERS... Vekzel won't (literally) read our strategy that way.

My vote goes for: ... Bb4
for the reasons in my last post which are still relevant.

The same applies to you... if you're quoting his post then you should spoiler it. I edited your post for you in this case.

Done because the cat was out of the bag in this case.
Friendship is like peeing yourself. Anyone can see it, but only you get that warm feeling.
Vekzel
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Poland142 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-25 06:51:02
October 25 2009 06:50 GMT
#254
It's updated. You guys should really do something about the members who are not participating, otherwise we'll run out of players around move 20. (Less and less people voting).

EDIT: I played my move. GoGoGo!
#1 Stork Fan II RET FIGHTING!!! II Nal_rA, Calm, UpMaGiC: GL 2U! II sAviOr: recover PLZ!
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
October 25 2009 07:13 GMT
#255
6. ...d5
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
unknown.sam
Profile Joined May 2007
Philippines2701 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-25 12:17:08
October 25 2009 07:18 GMT
#256
6...Nf6-e4

+ Show Spoiler +
i think this move is quite aggressive which is not really my style of play. other options would probably be 6...d4 and 6...0-0 which would be moves that i feel would give a more comfortable position.
"Thanks for the kind words, but if SS is the most interesting book you've ever read, you must have just started reading a couple of weeks ago." - Mark Rippetoe
anImaru
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States106 Posts
October 25 2009 07:20 GMT
#257
6...Nf6-e4
SnowFantasy
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
4173 Posts
October 25 2009 07:23 GMT
#258
Bxc3 imo
Kazius
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Israel1456 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-25 08:00:00
October 25 2009 07:43 GMT
#259
I vote: 6... O-O
+ Show Spoiler +
I doubt we'll get a better time to castle. He's probably going to castle himself as well, and then we can follow up with Bxc3, he takes bxc3, and then d6 puts us at a solid defense, pawns helping our active bishop on both sides, and to sum up: our position is slightly better. I think c5 at this point is premature and will either weaken our pawn structure or force us to move the bishop back, and d6 is much more reasonable, but again, we won't have a better time to castle than now.
Friendship is like peeing yourself. Anyone can see it, but only you get that warm feeling.
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
October 25 2009 07:43 GMT
#260
Perhaps, but you won't get rid of some of us soo easily :D

I really want to do something crazy...but nothing really comes to mind - still close to opening theory :D

so I vote for 6...c7-c5

+ Show Spoiler +
this is basically standard theory that leads to equality in the fianchetto variation. A sample line might run 6...c7-c5 7. 0-0 cxd4 8. Nxd4 d5 9. cxd5 Nxd5 =. This position would have good play for both sides. We wuld want to castle and play d5 when possible.

So what other options would Vekzel have?
a) 7. dxc5 - an odd move, giving up central space and options (such as later pawn thrusts). We could simply ignore the white pawn, as c5-c6 is not a threat while we can still play ...Nxc6; and keep developing, either through 7...0-0, 7...Nc6 or ...Na6 (probably better, it pressures the pawn, offering a sacrifice, and would allow us to soon exert pressure of e4 and d3, after solidifying the knight outpost via the move ...a5, covering the c5 square from white pawn thrusts. I think this line offers white very little, and gives us as black too much counterplay.

b) 7. a3 and now either ...Ba5 (we are been annoying) or ...Bxc3 (carrying out the threat to double pawns). Note that white cannot play the move b4 to trap the dark square bishop until he exchanges on c5, but black can then play the intermezzo ...Bxc3+; becafore recapturing on c5. This is a pretty mundane move, especially if we play the immediate ...Bxc3+, followed by ...Qe7 to pressure the a3 pawn and stop white's now unopposed dark square bishop from developing. If he counter-pins with Bg5, we play ...h6, entering the Kasparov variation in earnest. If he then exchanges, we are at a cross roads. The super solid ...Qxf6 gives us a good, safe solid position. We will want to play d5 or d6 depending on Vekzel's moves, bring the other knight to f6 via d7 and play from there.

The more risky, and lets face it, fun way to go would instead be...gxf6!? (or ?! if we lose ). This is afforded only because of the semi-tempo waste in the 7.a3 move; we can then simply play d6 (or skip entirely if we want the knight to go to a6-c5), mobilize the other knight and castle queenside. It is easy to shut down queenside. Im overall very sceptical of this line, but I have seen it employed before. I would want to see some really hard analysis before comitting to it.

c) 7. Bg5 - not a very good move in this line for white; he is going to give up his own bishop pair before we have even given up ours! simply play ...h6, and he either retreats to d2, wasting a move (unless forcing h6 was worth a tempi this early), or forcing Bxf6, Qxf6 which is good for us. Control of the g5 square cannot hurt us.

d) 7.e3 - not a bad move at all. We can just castle however, and await further developments, preparing the pawn thrust ...d5 before maxx exchanging his pawn centre.

Otherwise, my observations are that we want the queen on c7 when possible, to cover our b7 light square bishop, to limit tactical threats.

Also, do we want to try and exchange his centre OR set up blockades and knight outposts? That is, do we want to play ...d6 and grind, or ...d5 and play for the initiative?
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
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