TL Chess Match - Page 15

i don't understand why you are so negative toward this move. isn't 6...Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 0-0 essentially identical? can you at least explain why you don't like it instead of insulting people who disagree with you? i'm especially confused because earlier in the thread you were advocating 7...Bxc3+, just wondering why that difference is so fundamental here

im not sure how to best explain this, so feel free to ask for elaboration on anything I say, im not sure if I am assuming too much strategical understanding. What I am trying to get across is not that "6...Bxc3+ loses by force" but simply that we are worse off playing it now, as opposed to later.

so...

1) we give up the bishop pair, with only a (usually temporarily) 'advantage' of the doubled c-file pawns. This is a loss under both modern and classical thinking. Bishops are worth more than knights while the pawn centre is still fluid, and given the current structure, the centre should remain fluid for a good many turns yet (basically until he plays e4 and we play ...d5, followed by him playing e5, which he does not have to do). The c-file pawns only remain doubled until we exchange our own c-pawn for his d-pawn, and in any case, we are allowing him to bring a wing pawn (the b-pawn) to the centre (c-file). Furthermore, our dark square bishop has a good many options if we keep it alive, such as:

a) after been kicked via a3, returning to e7 or indeed exchanging via ...Bxf3+. The difference is now that we gain a half tempi (as a3 is a pseudo wasted move). If we return to e7, we can later come to play on f6, after we have established outposts for our knights. White's pawn structure has the traditional lingering dark sqare weakness common to all structures with a pawn of d4 and e4, with no supporting pawn on c3. If white instead elects to play e3 instead of an early e4, he is forced to consider what to do with his own dark square bishop:

a1) play Bg5 - a pretty tame move in this opening variation, that leads to easy equality for black. we play...h6 in response, and due to his own fianchetto, he must exchange, allowing us to play ...Qxf6 with a good game. I have even seen ...d6, ...e5-e4 in this line (not by me mind you, im from the 'offer a draw with a slightly better position' school).

a2) play e3 with the dark square bishop at home, angling for a delayed e4 to free it. An alternative, albeit a poorly thought of one in this structure (as opposed to as in the Queen's Gambit were if often shines) is to play for b3 and Bc1-b2, although black has plenty of time to solidify a knight or bishop (but usually not a pawn) on the d5 square, AND have time to play the move ...f5, solidifying a grip on the d5 square, keep the bishop silent forever (or at least until the endgame, when it is sorta sucky anyway).

2) what are white's plans for the c3 knight? Basically, its only job in life is to support the advance d4-d5, which isnt a threat unless we play really lethargically. We will be solidifying a position on d5 shortly, at least before white can play it himself. Our bishop isnt going anywhere until it is forced to (in which case, we can always exchange for the knight) and we otherwise control the d5 square. So, the c3 knight is pretty lame. The knight can be horrendous later on if it can come to d6 via e4, but that threat is so far off, giving up the strength of the bishop pair for a 'perhaps' threat seems silly.

3) capturing now gives white an easy choice of moves, and puts little pressure on him to develop his own dark square bishop (because the move Bd2 sucks, why move a bishop only one square?). Lets say we castle, he castles, we play c5. Now d5 doesnt work out too well because we can now exchange and break his central strength. This simply doesnt work if we exchange earlier, because he doesnt play d5, he instead plays for e4 and e5. He can do that comfortably with four pawns in the centre, because he has no dark square weakness (we have no dark square bishop, and he gets a pawn to c3 for free) and he saves a half move (via not having to play a3). After kicking our f6 knight, he can only now continue with d5, and we collapse and die.

It seems like a small thing and what I have put above is exaggerated for effect, but there are fundamental ramifications for making an unforced exchange in this position. I can link you well over 100 grandmaster games were they continue with 0-0, c5 or Ne4; the mainlines (in that order), but none with the continuation Bxc3+, at least without been forced to do so by the move a3. The half move you gain is very fundamental, as after all, black is a full move behind, so regaining a half move goes a long way to forcing equality. The strength of the bishop pair cannot be discounted.

Finally, if anyone is wondering about Qb3, we play Nc6 - the only time in the whole QID complex that you voluntarily block your c-pawn.

First of all there is nothing wrong with castling here... I see no way for white to take advantage of this move. Second of all, Bxc3 is a mistake unless he forces our hand. If he were to play a3 then that might be the time to exchange, but I love having his knight pinned with him currently having no way to prevent that besides a3. We didn't place the bishop at b4 in order to immediately trade... doubling his pawns isn't worth wasting that much time early in the game. I think a pawn move here could work also but I doubt there is anything wrong with castling.

so guys, how do we want to play? It looks like we are castling, which is totally fine. Do we want to follow up with play in the centre (via c5 and d5, then exchanging) or do we want to go for Ne4 and f5 to keep our influence, go for d6 and Nd7? QID formation does not allow us to go offensive until later (or until he makes an error).

We could also play my preferred method (Karpov Style!) and go for c6-d5. The bishop may be entombed, but its not a big deal, as it blunts his bishop as well, and we can always re-allocate to a6. This game becomes a real grind, but its a lot of fun. I think it works well with so many people helping to, because everyones analysis will be checked several times, and together, we are unlikely to miss anything.

Thoughts?

Bxc3 is not a good move and should not be played imo. Has been explained before, so just read what others have said. Nf6-e4 would be fun, but I feel it is easily countered by Bd2 and we won't get any momentum going, and would be castling very soon anyway. So we might as well do it now.

My assumption is that if he'll castle in return, and then perhaps Bxc3 would be warranted for the simple reason that the semi open b-file is perhaps our most solidly defended one, so while we give up the bishop pair for weakening his pawn structure, he has no short to mid-term options of slowing down our development. c5 seems to be the natural follow up for the pressure we're exerting here. Blockaded doubled pawns really sting. c6 and d5 assumes that we'll need to retreat our bishop. I'm not comfortable with that at this point. Then again, I usually lose to 1800+ Elo players so maybe I'm doing something wrong

We need to look for counter play opportunities against the space advantage that has been given to white. The double pawn on c3 would only solidify the pawn center. It's better to build up the tension first. With a3 it's different since white wastes a move by white and there are new weakness on the queen side to possibly attack.

Really it depends on the votes but I was thinking of c6 d5. I was also considering d6 N-bd7 but that would limit the dark square bishop. I'd think that it's better to begin with c5 before going to d6 and N-bd6. Still such a line would limit the dark square bishop so much that we might as well exchange it. I'll think a bit more about d5 and the other possibilities, but those are my plans right now.

Yeah, now that I think about it, if I were to play d6, I'd exchanged with Bxc3 and then play d6 and play c5 next to clog up the double pawns, and follow up with Nbd7. That's the best looking variation of d6 since with black's pawn structure, the dark square bishop becomes all but useless. Not a bad outcome for black.

safe play via

c5, d5,

if he's playing honestly, he will make a blunder sooner or later with this opening

well im glad someone is seeing that is a reasonable play, this is the same line i gave on the previous page
6...Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 d6 8.0-0 Nbd7 9.Rb1 0-0

this works out fine for black