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TL Chess Match - Page 12

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dismiss
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United Kingdom3341 Posts
October 22 2009 14:24 GMT
#221
Bc8-b7
Failure to improve posting standards will result in a lengthy ban. I <crms_> !dumb <GeoffAnderson> crmsdota <crms_> damnit
lightman
Profile Joined April 2005
United States731 Posts
October 22 2009 14:37 GMT
#222
hey benjammin,


+ Show Spoiler +

sorry yes you are right, my apologies. I haven't considered 5 a3. he may play it .... he may not.... so well let's see.

it's my mistake to underestimate this move from him (as well as others also mentioned). my thought process is given the nature of the match I don't think he'll try anything fancy till we're ending the early game phase.


and to iloveambiguity ....... I'm not wiiking anything, I am a solid chess player myself, I'm just trying to keep it constructive and productive, if you don't like the analysis post yours then.
Chuck Norris owns the greatest Poker Face of all-time. It helped him win the 1983 WSOP holding just a Get out of Jail Free Monopoloy card, and a green #4 card from the game UNO, against an AAA KK flop and his rival folding AK after Chuck raised him ALL-IN
iloveambiguity
Profile Joined August 2009
United States81 Posts
October 22 2009 15:21 GMT
#223
On October 22 2009 21:56 jfazz wrote:
Haha. This is getting fun. There isnt much point debating the viability of the various systems and responses kids, they are all very viable and it is more of a matter of what positions you feel comfortable playing - they all lead to subtle strategic differences.

All that said, I prefer 4...Bc8-Bb7 because I am a classical guy at heart.

Now:
a) 5.a3 Ne4 6.Nxe4 Bxe4 7.Nd2 Bb7 8. e4 Qf6 9. d5 Bc5 10.Qf3 Bd4 with equality, but a slightl nagging advantage for white going into an endgame if he can avoid mass exchanges. What you would expect from a pseudo-petrosian system. See Piket vs Anand, Gausdal 1986 for a good example of this line.

notes: also after 5.a3 d5 is also possible, such as 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.Qa4+ Qd7 8.Qc2 Nxc3

ahhh, dont have time for this right now, so quickly off my head (sorry if I miss a variation, I dont have my notes with me):

c) 5.Bg5 Bb4 (although in more recent times I have had heavy success with 5.h6)
d) 5.e3 Bb4
e) 5.g3 Bb4
f) 5.Qc2 Bb4
g) 5.Bf4 Be7 (here I reference Karpov and more recently Aargaard)
h) 5.e4! Nxe4 6. Bd3 Nxc3 7. bxc3 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 with in my opinion, already a slightly better game for black, though white has some initiative, as in Johansen v Tallaksen, 2006.

Its nice to see there is another good player on this thread.... Nice analysis, but why not bb4? after some a3 we can retreat to e7 at no significant tempo losss and we can still fiachetto the light square bishop?
iloveambiguity
Profile Joined August 2009
United States81 Posts
October 22 2009 15:23 GMT
#224
On October 22 2009 23:37 lightman wrote:
hey benjammin,


+ Show Spoiler +

sorry yes you are right, my apologies. I haven't considered 5 a3. he may play it .... he may not.... so well let's see.

it's my mistake to underestimate this move from him (as well as others also mentioned). my thought process is given the nature of the match I don't think he'll try anything fancy till we're ending the early game phase.


and to iloveambiguity ....... I'm not wiiking anything, I am a solid chess player myself, I'm just trying to keep it constructive and productive, if you don't like the analysis post yours then.

I did not mean to offend you... I am sure you are decent.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
October 22 2009 16:52 GMT
#225
Bc8-b7
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
October 23 2009 03:53 GMT
#226
@ iloveamiguity - nothing wrong with Bb4 at all. Its a more dynamic line which leads to a complex and interesting middle game. My line leads to an extremely drawish position, with faster equality. Im a play for a draw kind of guy as black
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
October 23 2009 04:10 GMT
#227
so who's winning so far? o_ o
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
Spazer
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada8031 Posts
October 23 2009 04:39 GMT
#228
Nobody's winning. It's still the opening.
Liquipedia
Vekzel
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Poland142 Posts
October 23 2009 07:55 GMT
#229
On October 22 2009 09:58 Misrah wrote:
Vexel is opening up ponziani right? i haven't played chess in some time- but i am curious if this is the white opening i am familiar with.

thanks to any that read and answer this ^^


This is definetely not Ponziani. This is Queen's Indian Defence.

Ponziani goes: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3!?
#1 Stork Fan II RET FIGHTING!!! II Nal_rA, Calm, UpMaGiC: GL 2U! II sAviOr: recover PLZ!
Arbiter[frolix]
Profile Joined January 2004
United Kingdom2674 Posts
October 23 2009 08:01 GMT
#230
Well that g3 was a little surprising.

I vote: Bb4.
We are vigilant.
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-23 08:14:23
October 23 2009 08:03 GMT
#231
On October 22 2009 09:58 Misrah wrote:
Vexel is opening up ponziani right? i haven't played chess in some time- but i am curious if this is the white opening i am familiar with.

thanks to any that read and answer this ^^


if you type it directly into wiki and look at the very first move you will indeed see this is nothing like the ponziani. as he even said just above this post somewhat.

oh i didnt notice he made is move

analysis then

+ Show Spoiler +

It seems almost completely obvious and a good thing just to take the knight off here, doubling his pawns, and giving him less presence in the center. He has to take back because of the double attack and best case being down a pawn if he doesn't immediately recapture.

So after something like
...5 Bxf3 6 exf3 d5 would be a strong move because he no longer has a pawn counteracting that file, and that pawn kind of blocks in his light square bishop for the time being so there is no worry of him trying to fianchetto it.


So i vote

...5 Bb7-Bxf3
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
SnowFantasy
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
4173 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-23 08:14:28
October 23 2009 08:10 GMT
#232
edit: Changed my vote to Bb4
Spazer
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada8031 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-23 08:56:09
October 23 2009 08:53 GMT
#233
+ Show Spoiler +
What's the point of going 5...Bb4? From what I see, all this does is provoke 6.a3 as a response, making our next move 6...Be7. Or is forcing 6.a3 actually the goal?

I'm not sure what to think of 5...Bxf3. While we do screw up his position, I'm not exactly thrilled about exchanging a fianchettoed bishop, especially if his light colored bishop is still in play. Movement of the knight on f6 is also restricted. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
Liquipedia
SnowFantasy
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
4173 Posts
October 23 2009 10:01 GMT
#234
On October 23 2009 17:53 Spazer wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
What's the point of going 5...Bb4? From what I see, all this does is provoke 6.a3 as a response, making our next move 6...Be7. Or is forcing 6.a3 actually the goal?

I'm not sure what to think of 5...Bxf3. While we do screw up his position, I'm not exactly thrilled about exchanging a fianchettoed bishop, especially if his light colored bishop is still in play. Movement of the knight on f6 is also restricted. Anyone else have thoughts on this?


+ Show Spoiler +
He wont play 6.a3 in respone to Bb4. He will play Qb3 to avoid weakening his pawn structure.
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-23 22:30:12
October 23 2009 11:42 GMT
#235
I vote for 5...Bf8-b4.

Reasoning: + Show Spoiler +
this move actively develops our kingside, allowing us to castle more quickly than white can, actually giving us a slight developmental advantage piece wise, vs. his space advantage and slight initiative. This move limits his central mobility, while not committing ourselves to anything too much - we still had not moved the d-pawn, thus retaining the ability to play the breaking move d5 in one movement, potentially saving a tempo. Further, the b8 knight still has its full range of developmental options.

Now, for those wondering about 6. a3 Be7 is a simple transposition to the Petrosian line, which is in no way detrimental to us. It does win him a half tempi, in sofar as he gets the a3 move for free if instead we had played Be7 directly, but it also gives us scope for counterplay on the weekend b3 (say, Nc8-d4-b3 for example) square later in the game via knight play, or even as a positional weakness in a king and pawn endgame. Its a tiny detail not really worth any major consideration, but I just want to illustrate its not ALL bad.


Finally, I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY against the bishop exchange, 5...Bxf3. Its a terrible move that offends my classical sensibilities. Why?+ Show Spoiler +

1) we exchange a well positioned bishop with immense latent power for a currently limited knight, ceding the bishop pair for no reason. While this opening does lead to interesting knight play, that is only a possiblity, while the bishops are always valuable. There is no sense in giving away any edge this early.
2) The doubled pawns ARE NOT an issue for white in this pawn strucuture. It adds additional protection to his kingside, limiting our own counterplay, and actually giving him a lever for assaulting our kingside via f-file pawn sacrifice. Even if it is never utilized offensively, it will still be traded off in the endgame, to no real detriment. Furthermore, this opens the e-file for pressure from his rooks.
3) The exchange of our light squae bishop stars to give him nagging play on our own light squares. Notably, this will accelerate his ability to play d5, which we cannot allow. It is an even exchange without benefit at the moment, but should it be allowed to gain momentum, and should he then be able to play d5-d6, its all over. We want to keep as much control over the central d5 and e4 squares as possible, while we can, so as to limit his ability to gain space and then momentum for an attack. I should mention that e4-e5 is also a threat if we are not careful.


In the future: + Show Spoiler +
Id like to see us play ...Bb4, then aim to play either ...d6 or ...d5 as appopriate, castling soon after. With a safe classical position, we can then look at various methods of generating action in the centre, either via the standard ...c5 pawn lever (which is why I dont really want to play the knight to c6 if we can help it, I would rather wait and move him to d7, reinforcing our own counter-centre, and the crucial knight on f6) or through the more ambitious ...f5.

Im going to go and look up some classical Korchnoi games from this position, so as to find some methods for attacking. Ill be back.
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
unknown.sam
Profile Joined May 2007
Philippines2701 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-23 11:59:07
October 23 2009 11:52 GMT
#236
dude don't hurt vezkel's feelings
put your analysis in spoiler tags

edit: i vote 5...d7-d5
"Thanks for the kind words, but if SS is the most interesting book you've ever read, you must have just started reading a couple of weeks ago." - Mark Rippetoe
Kazius
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Israel1456 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-23 23:37:50
October 23 2009 13:27 GMT
#237
On October 23 2009 20:42 jfazz wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

I vote for 5...Bf8-b4.

Reasoning: this move actively develops our kingside, allowing us to castle more quickly than white can, actually giving us a slight developmental advantage piece wise, vs. his space advantage and slight initiative. This move limits his central mobility, while not committing ourselves to anything too much - we still had not moved the d-pawn, thus retaining the ability to play the breaking move d5 in one movement, potentially saving a tempo. Further, the b8 knight still has its full range of developmental options.

Now, for those wondering about 6. a3 Be7 is a simple transposition to the Petrosian line, which is in no way detrimental to us. It does win him a half tempi, in sofar as he gets the a3 move for free if instead we had played Be7 directly, but it also gives us scope for counterplay on the weekend b3 (say, Nc8-d4-b3 for example) square later in the game via knight play, or even as a positional weakness in a king and pawn endgame. Its a tiny detail not really worth any major consideration, but I just want to illustrate its not ALL bad.

Finally, I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY against the bishop exchange, 5...Bxf3. Its a terrible move that offends my classical sensibilities. Why?
1) we exchange a well positioned bishop with immense latent power for a currently limited knight, ceding the bishop pair for no reason. While this opening does lead to interesting knight play, that is only a possiblity, while the bishops are always valuable. There is no sense in giving away any edge this early.
2) The doubled pawns ARE NOT an issue for white in this pawn strucuture. It adds additional protection to his kingside, limiting our own counterplay, and actually giving him a lever for assaulting our kingside via f-file pawn sacrifice. Even if it is never utilized offensively, it will still be traded off in the endgame, to no real detriment. Furthermore, this opens the e-file for pressure from his rooks.
3) The exchange of our light squae bishop stars to give him nagging play on our own light squares. Notably, this will accelerate his ability to play d5, which we cannot allow. It is an even exchange without benefit at the moment, but should it be allowed to gain momentum, and should he then be able to play d5-d6, its all over. We want to keep as much control over the central d5 and e4 squares as possible, while we can, so as to limit his ability to gain space and then momentum for an attack. I should mention that e4-e5 is also a threat if we are not careful.

Id like to see us play ...Bb4, then aim to play either ...d6 or ...d5 as appopriate, castling soon after. With a safe classical position, we can then look at various methods of generating action in the centre, either via the standard ...c5 pawn lever (which is why I dont really want to play the knight to c6 if we can help it, I would rather wait and move him to d7, reinforcing our own counter-centre, and the crucial knight on f6) or through the more ambitious ...f5.

Im going to go and look up some classical Korchnoi games from this position, so as to find some methods for attacking. Ill be back.

Did you read the first sentence in this thread? POST ANALYSIS IN SPOILERS... Vekzel won't (literally) read our strategy that way.

My vote goes for: ... Bb4
for the reasons in my last post which are still relevant.
Friendship is like peeing yourself. Anyone can see it, but only you get that warm feeling.
Ecael
Profile Joined February 2008
United States6703 Posts
October 23 2009 13:51 GMT
#238
Quoting the whole analysis goes a long way in getting OP to not see it.
lightman
Profile Joined April 2005
United States731 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-23 14:02:37
October 23 2009 13:56 GMT
#239
ok guys let's relax. first of all

we are still in opening book.
+ Show Spoiler +

I wasn't expecting the not commonly used 5 g3. Anyway, the correct response and what should follow to this is:

+ Show Spoiler +

5 g3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bg2 d6
8 0-0 a5! (this is a suggesting move of mine, to break opening preparation)

If we get there, we have a solid position and we could go on to maybe

9 Qc2 Nbd7
10 Rad1 Qe7
11 a3 Bxc3
12 Bxc3 Ne4 !

leaving him with the responsability of to make the exchange or not


let me tell you guys that

+ Show Spoiler +


5 g3 is a very uncommon move for QID, and it's interpreted as "passive play" from white.

in chess if there's anything you want in early game is the initiative.


to spazner and snow fantasy

+ Show Spoiler +


5 .... Bb4 is the correct move for this opening. remember we're still on book.

6 a3 is a possiblity but unlikely at this point since he already has played g3, and it would imply more passive play for white and gives black more initiative

6 Qb3 also possible but not quite the proper.

to

5 .... Bb4
6 Bd2

would be the correct response from white


I also agree with iloveambiguity and jfrazz 's analysis............


now some corrections:

to Divinek

+ Show Spoiler +


5 .... Bxf3 is regarded as 5 ...Bxf3 ? -in chess a question mark means "why?"-

taking the knight and doubling white pawns won't make us stronger or him weaker.

instead, it makes us weaker and him one "not so important knght" down. that line would likely make us play to force a draw

the whole object of our Bb7 is to keep the active bishop attacking a very important line and eventually looking forward to take an important piece or be part of an important exchange.

to put it simple:

black's bishop in Bb7 is way stronger than white's Knight in f3 ... so why give it away?

.


and to the guy that keeps saying this is a ponziani opening.....

+ Show Spoiler +


for the eleventh time, it's Queen's Indian Defense



therefore my vote is

5...... Bb4
Chuck Norris owns the greatest Poker Face of all-time. It helped him win the 1983 WSOP holding just a Get out of Jail Free Monopoloy card, and a green #4 card from the game UNO, against an AAA KK flop and his rival folding AK after Chuck raised him ALL-IN
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24723 Posts
October 23 2009 14:19 GMT
#240
Bb4

+ Show Spoiler +
clears the way for a king side castle and threatens the pawn structure on his queen side
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
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