TL Chess Match - Page 12
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United Kingdom3341 Posts
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lightman
United States731 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + sorry yes you are right, my apologies. I haven't considered 5 a3. he may play it .... he may not.... so well let's see. it's my mistake to underestimate this move from him (as well as others also mentioned). my thought process is given the nature of the match I don't think he'll try anything fancy till we're ending the early game phase. and to iloveambiguity ....... I'm not wiiking anything, I am a solid chess player myself, I'm just trying to keep it constructive and productive, if you don't like the analysis post yours then. | ||
iloveambiguity
United States81 Posts
On October 22 2009 21:56 jfazz wrote: Haha. This is getting fun. There isnt much point debating the viability of the various systems and responses kids, they are all very viable and it is more of a matter of what positions you feel comfortable playing - they all lead to subtle strategic differences. All that said, I prefer 4...Bc8-Bb7 because I am a classical guy at heart. Now: a) 5.a3 Ne4 6.Nxe4 Bxe4 7.Nd2 Bb7 8. e4 Qf6 9. d5 Bc5 10.Qf3 Bd4 with equality, but a slightl nagging advantage for white going into an endgame if he can avoid mass exchanges. What you would expect from a pseudo-petrosian system. See Piket vs Anand, Gausdal 1986 for a good example of this line. notes: also after 5.a3 d5 is also possible, such as 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.Qa4+ Qd7 8.Qc2 Nxc3 ahhh, dont have time for this right now, so quickly off my head (sorry if I miss a variation, I dont have my notes with me): c) 5.Bg5 Bb4 (although in more recent times I have had heavy success with 5.h6) d) 5.e3 Bb4 e) 5.g3 Bb4 f) 5.Qc2 Bb4 g) 5.Bf4 Be7 (here I reference Karpov and more recently Aargaard) h) 5.e4! Nxe4 6. Bd3 Nxc3 7. bxc3 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 with in my opinion, already a slightly better game for black, though white has some initiative, as in Johansen v Tallaksen, 2006. Its nice to see there is another good player on this thread.... Nice analysis, but why not bb4? after some a3 we can retreat to e7 at no significant tempo losss and we can still fiachetto the light square bishop? | ||
iloveambiguity
United States81 Posts
On October 22 2009 23:37 lightman wrote: hey benjammin, + Show Spoiler + sorry yes you are right, my apologies. I haven't considered 5 a3. he may play it .... he may not.... so well let's see. it's my mistake to underestimate this move from him (as well as others also mentioned). my thought process is given the nature of the match I don't think he'll try anything fancy till we're ending the early game phase. and to iloveambiguity ....... I'm not wiiking anything, I am a solid chess player myself, I'm just trying to keep it constructive and productive, if you don't like the analysis post yours then. I did not mean to offend you... I am sure you are decent. | ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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jfazz
Australia672 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
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Spazer
Canada8028 Posts
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Vekzel
Poland142 Posts
On October 22 2009 09:58 Misrah wrote: Vexel is opening up ponziani right? i haven't played chess in some time- but i am curious if this is the white opening i am familiar with. thanks to any that read and answer this ^^ This is definetely not Ponziani. This is Queen's Indian Defence. Ponziani goes: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3!? | ||
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Arbiter[frolix]
United Kingdom2674 Posts
I vote: Bb4. | ||
Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
On October 22 2009 09:58 Misrah wrote: Vexel is opening up ponziani right? i haven't played chess in some time- but i am curious if this is the white opening i am familiar with. thanks to any that read and answer this ^^ if you type it directly into wiki and look at the very first move you will indeed see this is nothing like the ponziani. as he even said just above this post somewhat. oh i didnt notice he made is move analysis then + Show Spoiler + It seems almost completely obvious and a good thing just to take the knight off here, doubling his pawns, and giving him less presence in the center. He has to take back because of the double attack and best case being down a pawn if he doesn't immediately recapture. So after something like ...5 Bxf3 6 exf3 d5 would be a strong move because he no longer has a pawn counteracting that file, and that pawn kind of blocks in his light square bishop for the time being so there is no worry of him trying to fianchetto it. So i vote ...5 Bb7-Bxf3 | ||
SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
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Spazer
Canada8028 Posts
What's the point of going 5...Bb4? From what I see, all this does is provoke 6.a3 as a response, making our next move 6...Be7. Or is forcing 6.a3 actually the goal? I'm not sure what to think of 5...Bxf3. While we do screw up his position, I'm not exactly thrilled about exchanging a fianchettoed bishop, especially if his light colored bishop is still in play. Movement of the knight on f6 is also restricted. Anyone else have thoughts on this? | ||
SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
On October 23 2009 17:53 Spazer wrote: + Show Spoiler + What's the point of going 5...Bb4? From what I see, all this does is provoke 6.a3 as a response, making our next move 6...Be7. Or is forcing 6.a3 actually the goal? I'm not sure what to think of 5...Bxf3. While we do screw up his position, I'm not exactly thrilled about exchanging a fianchettoed bishop, especially if his light colored bishop is still in play. Movement of the knight on f6 is also restricted. Anyone else have thoughts on this? + Show Spoiler + He wont play 6.a3 in respone to Bb4. He will play Qb3 to avoid weakening his pawn structure. | ||
jfazz
Australia672 Posts
Reasoning: + Show Spoiler + this move actively develops our kingside, allowing us to castle more quickly than white can, actually giving us a slight developmental advantage piece wise, vs. his space advantage and slight initiative. This move limits his central mobility, while not committing ourselves to anything too much - we still had not moved the d-pawn, thus retaining the ability to play the breaking move d5 in one movement, potentially saving a tempo. Further, the b8 knight still has its full range of developmental options. Now, for those wondering about 6. a3 Be7 is a simple transposition to the Petrosian line, which is in no way detrimental to us. It does win him a half tempi, in sofar as he gets the a3 move for free if instead we had played Be7 directly, but it also gives us scope for counterplay on the weekend b3 (say, Nc8-d4-b3 for example) square later in the game via knight play, or even as a positional weakness in a king and pawn endgame. Its a tiny detail not really worth any major consideration, but I just want to illustrate its not ALL bad. Finally, I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY against the bishop exchange, 5...Bxf3. Its a terrible move that offends my classical sensibilities. Why?+ Show Spoiler + 1) we exchange a well positioned bishop with immense latent power for a currently limited knight, ceding the bishop pair for no reason. While this opening does lead to interesting knight play, that is only a possiblity, while the bishops are always valuable. There is no sense in giving away any edge this early. 2) The doubled pawns ARE NOT an issue for white in this pawn strucuture. It adds additional protection to his kingside, limiting our own counterplay, and actually giving him a lever for assaulting our kingside via f-file pawn sacrifice. Even if it is never utilized offensively, it will still be traded off in the endgame, to no real detriment. Furthermore, this opens the e-file for pressure from his rooks. 3) The exchange of our light squae bishop stars to give him nagging play on our own light squares. Notably, this will accelerate his ability to play d5, which we cannot allow. It is an even exchange without benefit at the moment, but should it be allowed to gain momentum, and should he then be able to play d5-d6, its all over. We want to keep as much control over the central d5 and e4 squares as possible, while we can, so as to limit his ability to gain space and then momentum for an attack. I should mention that e4-e5 is also a threat if we are not careful. In the future: + Show Spoiler + Id like to see us play ...Bb4, then aim to play either ...d6 or ...d5 as appopriate, castling soon after. With a safe classical position, we can then look at various methods of generating action in the centre, either via the standard ...c5 pawn lever (which is why I dont really want to play the knight to c6 if we can help it, I would rather wait and move him to d7, reinforcing our own counter-centre, and the crucial knight on f6) or through the more ambitious ...f5. Im going to go and look up some classical Korchnoi games from this position, so as to find some methods for attacking. Ill be back. | ||
unknown.sam
Philippines2701 Posts
put your analysis in spoiler tags ![]() edit: i vote 5...d7-d5 | ||
Kazius
Israel1456 Posts
On October 23 2009 20:42 jfazz wrote: + Show Spoiler + I vote for 5...Bf8-b4. Reasoning: this move actively develops our kingside, allowing us to castle more quickly than white can, actually giving us a slight developmental advantage piece wise, vs. his space advantage and slight initiative. This move limits his central mobility, while not committing ourselves to anything too much - we still had not moved the d-pawn, thus retaining the ability to play the breaking move d5 in one movement, potentially saving a tempo. Further, the b8 knight still has its full range of developmental options. Now, for those wondering about 6. a3 Be7 is a simple transposition to the Petrosian line, which is in no way detrimental to us. It does win him a half tempi, in sofar as he gets the a3 move for free if instead we had played Be7 directly, but it also gives us scope for counterplay on the weekend b3 (say, Nc8-d4-b3 for example) square later in the game via knight play, or even as a positional weakness in a king and pawn endgame. Its a tiny detail not really worth any major consideration, but I just want to illustrate its not ALL bad. Finally, I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY against the bishop exchange, 5...Bxf3. Its a terrible move that offends my classical sensibilities. Why? 1) we exchange a well positioned bishop with immense latent power for a currently limited knight, ceding the bishop pair for no reason. While this opening does lead to interesting knight play, that is only a possiblity, while the bishops are always valuable. There is no sense in giving away any edge this early. 2) The doubled pawns ARE NOT an issue for white in this pawn strucuture. It adds additional protection to his kingside, limiting our own counterplay, and actually giving him a lever for assaulting our kingside via f-file pawn sacrifice. Even if it is never utilized offensively, it will still be traded off in the endgame, to no real detriment. Furthermore, this opens the e-file for pressure from his rooks. 3) The exchange of our light squae bishop stars to give him nagging play on our own light squares. Notably, this will accelerate his ability to play d5, which we cannot allow. It is an even exchange without benefit at the moment, but should it be allowed to gain momentum, and should he then be able to play d5-d6, its all over. We want to keep as much control over the central d5 and e4 squares as possible, while we can, so as to limit his ability to gain space and then momentum for an attack. I should mention that e4-e5 is also a threat if we are not careful. Id like to see us play ...Bb4, then aim to play either ...d6 or ...d5 as appopriate, castling soon after. With a safe classical position, we can then look at various methods of generating action in the centre, either via the standard ...c5 pawn lever (which is why I dont really want to play the knight to c6 if we can help it, I would rather wait and move him to d7, reinforcing our own counter-centre, and the crucial knight on f6) or through the more ambitious ...f5. Im going to go and look up some classical Korchnoi games from this position, so as to find some methods for attacking. Ill be back. Did you read the first sentence in this thread? POST ANALYSIS IN SPOILERS... Vekzel won't (literally) read our strategy that way. My vote goes for: ... Bb4 for the reasons in my last post which are still relevant. | ||
Ecael
United States6703 Posts
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lightman
United States731 Posts
we are still in opening book. + Show Spoiler + I wasn't expecting the not commonly used 5 g3. Anyway, the correct response and what should follow to this is: + Show Spoiler + 5 g3 Bb4 6 Bd2 0-0 7 Bg2 d6 8 0-0 a5! (this is a suggesting move of mine, to break opening preparation) If we get there, we have a solid position and we could go on to maybe 9 Qc2 Nbd7 10 Rad1 Qe7 11 a3 Bxc3 12 Bxc3 Ne4 ! leaving him with the responsability of to make the exchange or not let me tell you guys that + Show Spoiler + 5 g3 is a very uncommon move for QID, and it's interpreted as "passive play" from white. in chess if there's anything you want in early game is the initiative. to spazner and snow fantasy + Show Spoiler + 5 .... Bb4 is the correct move for this opening. remember we're still on book. 6 a3 is a possiblity but unlikely at this point since he already has played g3, and it would imply more passive play for white and gives black more initiative 6 Qb3 also possible but not quite the proper. to 5 .... Bb4 6 Bd2 would be the correct response from white I also agree with iloveambiguity and jfrazz 's analysis............ now some corrections: to Divinek + Show Spoiler + 5 .... Bxf3 is regarded as 5 ...Bxf3 ? -in chess a question mark means "why?"- taking the knight and doubling white pawns won't make us stronger or him weaker. instead, it makes us weaker and him one "not so important knght" down. that line would likely make us play to force a draw the whole object of our Bb7 is to keep the active bishop attacking a very important line and eventually looking forward to take an important piece or be part of an important exchange. to put it simple: black's bishop in Bb7 is way stronger than white's Knight in f3 ... so why give it away? . and to the guy that keeps saying this is a ponziani opening..... + Show Spoiler + for the eleventh time, it's Queen's Indian Defense therefore my vote is 5...... Bb4 | ||
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micronesia
United States24583 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + clears the way for a king side castle and threatens the pawn structure on his queen side | ||
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