The Elephant in the Room - Page 259

On February 10 2012 13:55 ShadeR wrote:
I don't get you guys... Isn't SC2 dominated by BW has beens and low tier players.

On February 10 2012 14:09 bittman wrote:


Part of the point which people also dance around is that there are BW low tier players that are faring far better in SC2 than higher ranking/achieving BW players.

And this is the whole point of this thread I thought. Not just that good SC2 players are often good BW players, but that our current strong players are far weaker than the BW crowd still. However, people are obviously starting to note that the scenes are different enough and that some players are advancing in skill to points that BW players can't just "come in and get a 100% win rate" or whatever people expected.

If you asked the OP again whether he thought it was still top300, he might say a much lower number. Of course, it's still agreeable that great RTS players such as the BW elite have the skill to be great RTS players in SC2, but as time goes on there are a lot of players who are getting very skilled at SC2, and just because they might not have been able to make it with the top in BW doesn't mean they stagnated in overall RTS skill, and that's ignoring game knowledge built up to this point.

Anyway don't know why this thread is still being bumped haha, we haven't seen any new big names bust onto the scene greater than ForGG + Hyun have we?

On February 10 2012 13:09 lorkac wrote:


Just read the pages before this one.

SC2 is considered a farce simply because Flash, Bisu and Jeadong aren't playing. Maybe Fantasy and Jangbi too, I don't know, the number keeps shrinking the more wrong this article is proven.

Here's the thing--the only argument the whole article had going for it was that SC2 is so easy that any random rag tag group of low level BW pros could switch over and dominate. When you start shrinking it down to "when some really high level players switches to SC2 he will be really good at it!" which is akin to saying...

"when the best of the best decide to do things similar to what they're already the best at--they won't suck at it"

In which case there is no argument. There are always top talented people waiting in the wings to swoop in and take over as best in the business. Whether they wait in the wings because they're stuck in code B (MMA and DRG) or they're waiting in the wings because they're playing another game (Flash, Bisu and Jaedong, supposedly) it all amounts to the same thing in the end. Highly talented individuals coming in every now and then to revolutionize the match-ups or even the game itself--that happens all the time.

The whole argument about Elephants is that SC2 is a farce because any random scrub can jump in and dominate. And we're finding that to just not be true. At all.

So the argument shifted, and now the numbers are getting smaller and smaller. Hell, the very "scrubs" that the article makes fun of is now the "evidence" of the Elephant in the room. It's been completely turned upside down. Defending the Elephant in the Room argument with statements like "MVP was a BW player!" is the exact opposite of what the article and the argument of the article is all about.

If the current players like MVP, MC, Nestea, etc... are no longer scrubs but are valid examples of the supremacy of BW--then there was no need for the article to exists before since it was these same players being bad at BW that prompted the article being written in the first place. If the only argument left is

"Those guys who we called scrubs before because they sucked in BW, well they're no longer scrubs and they weren't even that bad in BW"

Then supporters of the article have literally 180'd and are now against the article.

On February 10 2012 14:09 bittman wrote:


Part of the point which people also dance around is that there are BW low tier players that are faring far better in SC2 than higher ranking/achieving BW players.

On February 10 2012 14:09 bittman wrote:


Part of the point which people also dance around is that there are BW low tier players that are faring far better in SC2 than higher ranking/achieving BW players.

And this is the whole point of this thread I thought. Not just that good SC2 players are often good BW players, but that our current strong players are far weaker than the BW crowd still. However, people are obviously starting to note that the scenes are different enough and that some players are advancing in skill to points that BW players can't just "come in and get a 100% win rate" or whatever people expected.

If you asked the OP again whether he thought it was still top300, he might say a much lower number. Of course, it's still agreeable that great RTS players such as the BW elite have the skill to be great RTS players in SC2, but as time goes on there are a lot of players who are getting very skilled at SC2, and just because they might not have been able to make it with the top in BW doesn't mean they stagnated in overall RTS skill, and that's ignoring game knowledge built up to this point.

Anyway don't know why this thread is still being bumped haha, we haven't seen any new big names bust onto the scene greater than ForGG + Hyun have we?

On February 10 2012 14:13 1Eris1 wrote:



I'm sorry you have to judge based on idiots posting stupid one liners, and that you can't look at the rational arguements posted for this topic. I mean, personally I try not to respond to the idiots that say MMA would have been S Class in BW if he had stuck around for 6 more months.

I don't think it's a farce, personally. Instead I think it has the potential to get better. Would you say the current play now is better than that of when this article is written? Of course you would. And if more talented RTS players switch over, there is a very good chance the overall level of the game will continue to increase.

Also, I don't think anybody ever said "a random scrub can just come in and dominate." It's only ever been referred to as top BW players. Personally I've always though 300 was a bit of an exaggeration, but when this article was written there were probably dozens of players who were mechanically superior to Nestea (the 2nd best player in the world at the time), so I don't see why it's illogical to think they couldn't have had the same, or at least similar sucess as him.

The thing about defending the article with "MVP was a BW player", is that it's only used in conjunction (or should only be) when referring to players who were worse than MVP. ForGG was pretty crappy by the time he switched over, certainly a level below MVP, so when you use ForGG as an example to fight the article, you really can't, because it doesn't work.

And err, I don't believe the article ever claimed those 300 players would always be able to switch over and dominate. It was directed at that specific period in time. Applying the article's standards to todays level of play are ridiculous, because the overall level of play has increased. (Which is why I said that "300" has definetely shrinked)

And hmm? I'm not sure anyone is suddenly claiming MVP was actually amazing at BW (and if they are, they shouldn't be), but to this day he remains the most mechanically talented to have switched.
Nestea is different. He has always had "meh" mechanics, even as far as SC2 goes. But he has always been smart, even to the point that he was a coach in BW for a while. (And with the reduced reliance on mechanics in SC2 and the greater reliance on strategical play, it's not surpising he's sucessful)

As for the others; MMA, DRG, Leenock, etc? They were up and coming. I won't pretend to know how good they were in BW as I didn't follow them, but some players do take a couple of years to fully get the hang of things, so it's possible they could have ended up in the same place MVP was, or flopped out of a Courage, we honestly don't know.
MC is probably the biggest wildcard. He has a terrible record in BW, but that is part due to the fact that he was constantly being placed against good players. Maybe a few months down the road he would have started winning, I have no idea.

tl;dr. Don't judge the arguement based off a few idiots. (that goes for both sides)

On February 10 2012 15:30 Ryncol wrote:


ForGG is not really new; when he officially switched and joined oGs he'd been playing for ten months or so already. And not just casually messing around in Diamond or something, he had three acounts high in GM.

On February 10 2012 15:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:

Notice that I said "competitive SC2". Being a ladder lord is a lot different from playing as a professional in competitions.

I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.

On February 10 2012 14:13 1Eris1 wrote:



I'm sorry you have to judge based on idiots posting stupid one liners, and that you can't look at the rational arguements posted for this topic. I mean, personally I try not to respond to the idiots that say MMA would have been S Class in BW if he had stuck around for 6 more months.

I don't think it's a farce, personally. Instead I think it has the potential to get better. Would you say the current play now is better than that of when this article is written? Of course you would. And if more talented RTS players switch over, there is a very good chance the overall level of the game will continue to increase.

Also, I don't think anybody ever said "a random scrub can just come in and dominate." It's only ever been referred to as top BW players. Personally I've always though 300 was a bit of an exaggeration, but when this article was written there were probably dozens of players who were mechanically superior to Nestea (the 2nd best player in the world at the time), so I don't see why it's illogical to think they couldn't have had the same, or at least similar sucess as him.

The thing about defending the article with "MVP was a BW player", is that it's only used in conjunction (or should only be) when referring to players who were worse than MVP. ForGG was pretty crappy by the time he switched over, certainly a level below MVP, so when you use ForGG as an example to fight the article, you really can't, because it doesn't work.

And err, I don't believe the article ever claimed those 300 players would always be able to switch over and dominate. It was directed at that specific period in time. Applying the article's standards to todays level of play are ridiculous, because the overall level of play has increased. (Which is why I said that "300" has definetely shrinked)

And hmm? I'm not sure anyone is suddenly claiming MVP was actually amazing at BW (and if they are, they shouldn't be), but to this day he remains the most mechanically talented to have switched.
Nestea is different. He has always had "meh" mechanics, even as far as SC2 goes. But he has always been smart, even to the point that he was a coach in BW for a while. (And with the reduced reliance on mechanics in SC2 and the greater reliance on strategical play, it's not surpising he's sucessful)

As for the others; MMA, DRG, Leenock, etc? They were up and coming. I won't pretend to know how good they were in BW as I didn't follow them, but some players do take a couple of years to fully get the hang of things, so it's possible they could have ended up in the same place MVP was, or flopped out of a Courage, we honestly don't know.
MC is probably the biggest wildcard. He has a terrible record in BW, but that is part due to the fact that he was constantly being placed against good players. Maybe a few months down the road he would have started winning, I have no idea.

tl;dr. Don't judge the arguement based off a few idiots. (that goes for both sides)

On February 10 2012 16:16 polysciguy wrote:

not when most of the people you play as "ladder lord" are the same people you'll be playing in those competitions, will they be playing a build they devised, no, but they will be playing standard builds most likely......unless its julyzerg..

On February 10 2012 15:29 lorkac wrote:


My bad. I didn't mean to take the article on its own merits. And, more specifically, on its own words.

Has the play gotten better since the article was written? Yup. Kind of like the skill ceiling wasn't reached yet. Will it continue to get better? Yup--because the skill ceiling hasn't been reached yet. As time passes players will get better and better--with time, because SC2 is still young, the game play will mature and the mechanics more crisp so that a year from now we will laugh at SC2 game play the same way we laugh at Nada for only expanding after making 2 Barracks.

As for the ForGG vs MVP discussion--ForGG is far and away above players like Nestea and Genius at BW and so far ForGG has only really been able to show dominance vs code A players. And sure MVP had the best overall record last year--but he wasn't the favorite to win January even before he got eliminated as players such as DRG and MMA have slowly but surely been getting ahead of MVP when it comes to dominance of the scene.

Overall, the end result is that the original article's prediction has been wrong, it's main defenders have been wrong, and even the "evidence" to prove it right have been wrong. Both ForGG (Hotbid's evidence as could be seen from him bumping the thread) and MVP (The main guy defenders of the article turn to when they realize ForGG wasn't as dominant as they hoped he'd be) are getting surpassed by players with less BW experience than either of them.

And that's not even counting Hyun getting rofl stomped by Taeja out of Code A.

The argument the original article made was never that SC2 players have no BW experience, but that the current "cream of the crop" had insufficient experience or even bad experience--so much so that SC2 was a farce because only bad BW players are in it and when good BW players come in they would dominate. What we're seeing is that that was wrong.

Just remember, it wasn't the "superior player mechanically" MVP who beat ForGG, it was MC, it was Leenock.

Sure a player like Flash could theoretically jumped into SC2 and most likely dominate. But Flash is dominating BW as well. Should BW be a farce because it's dominated by Flash? Should BW be a farce because it's dominated by it's top players?

The only way SC2 can be seen as a farce is if people who aren't the top players could run in and dominate.

I just counted, and if we assume Hyun was the WORSE player to have transferred, the absolute worse player in all of the BW teams, even below the worse players that Air Force ACE has to offer--then even the top 94 of BW can't make it into Code A.

I'm not talking about ForGG who had a good run and stopped--I'm talking about a BW player who was active until his team died and he switched, practiced for several months before hopping into Code A and getting knocked out in the first round. Assuming he is the worse that BW programmers can offer--then we already have to amend the initial estimate by more than 66% percent. And that's assuming everyone else "above" Hyun would roflestomp the SC2 scene.

Most likely Hyun was not the bottom of the barrel. And most likely "top 300" has to be shrunk down to, possibly "top 50" and more realistically "top 20~"

And even then, we probably only have the absolute best players of that top 20 be good enough to actually overrun the SC2 scene. But--those players are the ones dominating the BW scene right now as we speak. Maybe you could even make the argument that BW is a farce because none of the sub-par players are as good as the top players?

That's a wrong conclusion to make of course--but that's the only logical conclusion you can reach if you don't use a large player pool to determine whether something is a farce.

On February 11 2012 15:34 jidolboy wrote:

...
No pros play standard or at least try to win while laddering. They do it with practice partners....

On February 11 2012 15:33 Azzur wrote:
People using the example of MVP, MMA, Leenock, etc would've been top BW players are missing the point - the OP is claiming that the competition in SC2 is a farce, however, the evidence (BW pros switching and not doing well) is showing otherwise.

ple you play as "ladder lord" are the same people you'll be playing in those competitions, will they be playing a build they devised, no, but they will be playing standard builds most likely......unless its julyzerg..