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On February 08 2012 02:09 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 23:59 lorkac wrote:On February 07 2012 23:41 TheSubtleArt wrote:On February 07 2012 22:44 lorkac wrote:On February 07 2012 21:47 TheSubtleArt wrote:On February 06 2012 08:09 lorkac wrote:
I wonder how many people are actually defending the original article's argument (MVP and others are a sham because current BW pros are better) and are actually defending SC2 (MVP and others are great examples of why BW experience is superior to non-BW experience but Forgg's lack of results show that it's not the be all end all of SC2)
Tldr: unless you think MVP is a horrible player that could get roflstomped by low level BW pros in SC2--you're actually defending SC2 according to this article. MVP was actually on a hugestreak before he switched...a streak that included wins over Snow, Flash, Baby, Best, Stork, Bogus and Kal, which is an incredibly strong lineup of players. So are you saying that good BW players (like MVP) can be as good in SC2 as bad BW players (like Nestea/MMA/MC) proving that how good you are in BW does not directly relate to how well you'll do in SC2--but does help. + Show Spoiler +Which would mean you disagree with the article. Or Do you mean that SC2 is not a sham because it already has good BW players in it meaning that the competition it's had has actually been impressive because good BW players have been in it since the beginning. + Show Spoiler +Which also means you disagree with the article. My opinion is that the article is over 9 months old and thus obsolete. The scene has changed, players are more skilled, players practice more, and most team houses have more rigid practice schedules than they did last may, making this article irrelevant and a waste of time to discuss Cool  glad we agree that the article is bogus. Not saying it was bogus, it might have been true at the time, but it's just outdated now. It's like looking at current balance in a matchup by analysing games and winrates that are almost a year old....it's useless and far too much has changed.
Hope this isn't creepy, but is your account at all connected to this?
http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/pegn6/a_tribute_to_subtleart_one_of_the_greatest_spies/
Or is it just coincidence?
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Back on topic, the only thing that seperates the best BW pros from the lesser BW pros is the work ethic. Therefore, they won't instantly dominate SC2 on switching. However, over a period of time the BW pros would probably do better than a lot of our current batch.
The current best SC2 pros would survive, and probably do very well. Guys like MMA, MC, MVP, Nestea would, unless they went into slumps, achieve great results. There would just be more competition. Oh yeah, and TBLS would eventually dominate, again assuming no slumps.
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On February 08 2012 03:38 foxmulder_ms wrote:
People who say this article is stupid, cannot read or cannot comprehend what they are reading. The article sits on very solid facts. They were not ideas at all. Write down all the successful SC2 players, they are all below average (not S-class, may be low A class) broodwar players. This is a fact. July and boxer (my favorite player) were legends but still they were not successful for years in broodwar before they switch. This is a fact, too. MVP, the most successful SC2 player were also the most successful broodwar player (among the sc2 players of course) when the sc2 switch happened. Another fact for you.
After HOTS release, I believe some top Koreans, A- and maybe some S-class will switch to sc2 (most of them will retire but some will switch) and they have extremely strong chance to be very good on sc2, too.
There is another possibility, though. If Koreans still favor to follow broodway even after HOTS release, we may never know.. And if the real switch for Korea delays until Legacy of the Void, I expect almost all broodwar legends to retire.
The argument is not about whether A and S lass players will do well at sc2, it's about whether there are a lot of people below that level which would do as well. Which is obviously not true and it wasn't even true back then.
Besides that he was pretty biased when he wrote the article and left out stuff that would discredit some of his facts. I.E. the low winrate of MC being because he was just brought when he couldn't handle it.
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On February 08 2012 03:38 foxmulder_ms wrote:
People who say this article is stupid, cannot read or cannot comprehend what they are reading. The article sits on very solid facts. They were not ideas at all. Write down all the successful SC2 players, they are all below average (not S-class, may be low A class) broodwar players. This is a fact. July and boxer (my favorite player) were legends but still they were not successful for years in broodwar before they switch. This is a fact, too. MVP, the most successful SC2 player were also the most successful broodwar player (among the sc2 players of course) when the sc2 switch happened. Another fact for you.
After HOTS release, I believe some top Koreans, A- and maybe some S-class will switch to sc2 (most of them will retire but some will switch) and they have extremely strong chance to be very good on sc2, too.
There is another possibility, though. If Koreans still favor to follow broodway even after HOTS release, we may never know.. And if the real switch for Korea delays until Legacy of the Void, I expect almost all broodwar legends to retire.
Just because it is based on "facts" doesn't mean the article isn't stupid. You were successfully tricked by the writer into thinking what he wanted you to think. It's not just about comprehending what the article entails, but thinking about what the article tries to accomplish, which is what it is stupid.
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he is also playing terran
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I think Jangbi playing in this tourney, or just playing sc2, would be a way bigger deal and make a lot of noise, unless I missed him retiring.
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On February 09 2012 06:20 Silidons wrote:he is also playing terran
I know. But race switching between BW and SC2 is not exactly unheard of.
On February 09 2012 06:20 MrCon wrote:
I think Jangbi playing in this tourney, or just playing sc2, would be a way bigger deal and make a lot of noise, unless I missed him retiring.
It's already known that BW players did some SC2 in the off-season. It's possible he just wants to test the waters, so to speak. Or even just have fun.
I don't see him switching to full-time SC2 any time soon, but honestly getting into a small Korean tourney like EWM would not require a great deal of effort for a BW pro, even without practising SC2 much at all.
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I remember there was a player on ZeNEX (or the NEX clan?) that tried qualifying for open season 2 or 3 using the ID JangBi, it's probably him.
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Damn. Shame. Probably him, then.
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LOL. Jangbi is the most recent OSL champion, how can you even think that lmao..
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I think it's rather well known around the community of high level gamers (high masters -> GM -> pro players) that if a midclass A level BW pro came over, he wouldn't BREAK the metagame, and wouldn't show crazy awesome results instantly or blow everyone away.
WHAT IS assumed is that if one of the BEST players (flash, jaedong, jangbi, bisu and stork) came over... THEN we'd see why these players are on a totally different level then all of the pro players. You've heard this on State of the Game, streams, professional casting duos have mentioned this on GSL/ESL/MLG/Dreamhack once or twice.
So to say that the "BW pro fear" isn't true, is true to an extent (because most BW pros just grinded out hours and hours and just had awesome mechanics which aren't as needed in SC2) but when you take the real innovators, SaviOr, Bisu, Flash, Each one changed there respective race (tho sadly savior wont be coming T.T) and Jaedong with his walls in ZvX.
I think THEN you will see a DRASTIC difference in skill level between BW vs SC2 players.
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I just wanna throw into the discussion that many top players are not from bw. MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjackji, Polt and many others. Most of them just have played bw casually cause it's famous in Korea(except mma who decided very quickly to drop bw for sc2 so you can't really say he was a bw player). So it's wrong to say that the best players come from bw.
I have no doubt that these are the players who would reign after the current generation on bw as well, if sc2 wasn't published.
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On February 10 2012 08:44 Steveling wrote:
I just wanna throw into the discussion that many top players are not from bw. MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjackji, Polt and many others. Most of them just have played bw casually cause it's famous in Korea(except mma who decided very quickly to drop bw for sc2 so you can't really say he was a bw player). So it's wrong to say that the best players come from bw.
I have no doubt that these are the players who would reign after the current generation on bw as well, if sc2 wasn't published.
If they were just casual players then I am the emperor of Rome. Well, Polt of course isn't from BW but to make up for it the comment on MMA is cute. There is no need to lie.
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On February 10 2012 08:44 Steveling wrote:
I just wanna throw into the discussion that many top players are not from bw. MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjackji, Polt and many others. Most of them just have played bw casually cause it's famous in Korea(except mma who decided very quickly to drop bw for sc2 so you can't really say he was a bw player). So it's wrong to say that the best players come from bw.
I have no doubt that these are the players who would reign after the current generation on bw as well, if sc2 wasn't published.
All those players that you mentioned played brood war except for Polt who played WC3 but he would have probably played some bw too anyways. The best sc2 players are from broodwar.
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On February 10 2012 08:42 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I think it's rather well known around the community of high level gamers (high masters -> GM -> pro players) that if a midclass A level BW pro came over, he wouldn't BREAK the metagame, and wouldn't show crazy awesome results instantly or blow everyone away.
WHAT IS assumed is that if one of the BEST players (flash, jaedong, jangbi, bisu and stork) came over... THEN we'd see why these players are on a totally different level then all of the pro players. You've heard this on State of the Game, streams, professional casting duos have mentioned this on GSL/ESL/MLG/Dreamhack once or twice.
So to say that the "BW pro fear" isn't true, is true to an extent (because most BW pros just grinded out hours and hours and just had awesome mechanics which aren't as needed in SC2) but when you take the real innovators, SaviOr, Bisu, Flash, Each one changed there respective race (tho sadly savior wont be coming T.T) and Jaedong with his walls in ZvX.
I think THEN you will see a DRASTIC difference in skill level between BW vs SC2 players.
While that is something nearly everyone can agree on that is NOT what this article was about.
The writer of this lovely article said and i quote "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch"
Not only that but he called the current sc2 competition a farce.
These 2reasons alone is a reason why people really should stop bumping this everytime someone from bw wins a match.
We all know they can win matches and the very top may as well break the current metagame but that was not what the article was saying.
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On February 09 2012 06:20 Silidons wrote:he is also playing terran
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
On February 10 2012 10:26 Biggun69 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 08:44 Steveling wrote:
I just wanna throw into the discussion that many top players are not from bw. MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjackji, Polt and many others. Most of them just have played bw casually cause it's famous in Korea(except mma who decided very quickly to drop bw for sc2 so you can't really say he was a bw player). So it's wrong to say that the best players come from bw.
I have no doubt that these are the players who would reign after the current generation on bw as well, if sc2 wasn't published. All those players that you mentioned played brood war except for Polt who played WC3 but he would have probably played some bw too anyways. The best sc2 players are from broodwar.
I'm honestly surprised people are still making a point to say this sort of thing.
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Why would JangBi:
1) Quit BW after winning a SL.
2) If he just won the OSL, how would he be practicing both BW and SC2?
3) Debut in a weekly showmatch.
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Jangbi switching over rightnow would make absolutely no sense.
thats like saying MVP is switching to LoL CnC
edit: MMA or MKP? I dont really know what acronym the guy I'm thinking off uses.
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On February 10 2012 10:27 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 08:42 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I think it's rather well known around the community of high level gamers (high masters -> GM -> pro players) that if a midclass A level BW pro came over, he wouldn't BREAK the metagame, and wouldn't show crazy awesome results instantly or blow everyone away.
WHAT IS assumed is that if one of the BEST players (flash, jaedong, jangbi, bisu and stork) came over... THEN we'd see why these players are on a totally different level then all of the pro players. You've heard this on State of the Game, streams, professional casting duos have mentioned this on GSL/ESL/MLG/Dreamhack once or twice.
So to say that the "BW pro fear" isn't true, is true to an extent (because most BW pros just grinded out hours and hours and just had awesome mechanics which aren't as needed in SC2) but when you take the real innovators, SaviOr, Bisu, Flash, Each one changed there respective race (tho sadly savior wont be coming T.T) and Jaedong with his walls in ZvX.
I think THEN you will see a DRASTIC difference in skill level between BW vs SC2 players. While that is something nearly everyone can agree on that is NOT what this article was about. The writer of this lovely article said and i quote "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch" Not only that but he called the current sc2 competition a farce. These 2reasons alone is a reason why people really should stop bumping this everytime someone from bw wins a match. We all know they can win matches and the very top may as well break the current metagame but that was not what the article was saying.
It is a field dominated by BW players. That is the BW players are facing other BW players. Almost everytime a top Korean wins, a BW player wins. Now, if they are mostly all BW players of about the same level, why would anyone of them dominate? They could dominate if there were less BW players of their own level, but since there aren't, why would they dominate?
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On February 10 2012 08:44 Steveling wrote:
I just wanna throw into the discussion that many top players are not from bw. MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjackji, Polt and many others. Most of them just have played bw casually cause it's famous in Korea(except mma who decided very quickly to drop bw for sc2 so you can't really say he was a bw player). So it's wrong to say that the best players come from bw.
I have no doubt that these are the players who would reign after the current generation on bw as well, if sc2 wasn't published.
Mvp - Woongjin Stars A-teamer
Nesta - KT Rolster A-teamer turned coach
Genius played for the well known clan NsP
MC - MBC Game Hero A-teamer
Supernova - KT Rolster B-teamer
Fin - Hwaesung Oz and KT Rolster A-teamer
Marineking - MBC Game Hero B(?)-teamer
Puzzle - WeMade FOX B-teamer
MMA - SK Telecom 1 B-teamer
Bomber - eSTRO A-teamer
Curious - B-teamer
Also you know Boxer, Nada, July. Soooooooooo yeeeeeeeeeaaaah you're full of shit.
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EPT
