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The Elephant in the Room - Page 256

Forum Index > Final Edits
6513 CommentsPost a Reply
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lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
February 05 2012 23:09 GMT
#5101
I wonder how many people are actually defending the original article's argument (MVP and others are a sham because current BW pros are better) and are actually defending SC2 (MVP and others are great examples of why BW experience is superior to non-BW experience but Forgg's lack of results show that it's not the be all end all of SC2)

Tldr: unless you think MVP is a horrible player that could get roflstomped by low level BW pros in SC2--you're actually defending SC2 according to this article.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
SovSov
Profile Joined September 2010
United States755 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-05 23:11:35
February 05 2012 23:09 GMT
#5102
This thread is so irrelevant now.

Not only was it a pretty stupid post at its time (for a various number of reasons that the bias writer didn't care to mention), but now it is stupid AND irrelevant because the competition is no longer a "farce".
Squeegy
Profile Joined October 2009
Finland1166 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-06 20:42:07
February 06 2012 20:41 GMT
#5103
On February 06 2012 08:09 lorkac wrote:
I wonder how many people are actually defending the original article's argument (MVP and others are a sham because current BW pros are better) and are actually defending SC2 (MVP and others are great examples of why BW experience is superior to non-BW experience but Forgg's lack of results show that it's not the be all end all of SC2)

Tldr: unless you think MVP is a horrible player that could get roflstomped by low level BW pros in SC2--you're actually defending SC2 according to this article.


Nobody said MVP would get roflstomped by low level pros. What was said that there are many low level pros who can match MVP and then the A- and S-class people would show who's the boss, so to speak. Not much has changed. Former BW players dominate this game and they are all low level. That gives a good reason to think that the top players from BW will do even better. Top players haven't switched.
Stan: Dude, dolphins are intelligent and friendly. Cartman: Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with some mayonnaise.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
February 07 2012 12:41 GMT
#5104
On February 07 2012 05:41 Squeegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2012 08:09 lorkac wrote:
I wonder how many people are actually defending the original article's argument (MVP and others are a sham because current BW pros are better) and are actually defending SC2 (MVP and others are great examples of why BW experience is superior to non-BW experience but Forgg's lack of results show that it's not the be all end all of SC2)

Tldr: unless you think MVP is a horrible player that could get roflstomped by low level BW pros in SC2--you're actually defending SC2 according to this article.


Nobody said MVP would get roflstomped by low level pros. What was said that there are many low level pros who can match MVP and then the A- and S-class people would show who's the boss, so to speak. Not much has changed. Former BW players dominate this game and they are all low level. That gives a good reason to think that the top players from BW will do even better. Top players haven't switched.


Assuming you're right--which 300 players are the "top players" that you're thinking of? Or by "top players" do you Flash, Jaedong, Bisu? Maybe even Fantasy, Zero and Jangbi? Is it simply the top 10 players of BW? Maybe top 20?

Would the article be impressive if it said something along the lines of "One or two dozen people in Broodwar might be good enough to not get knocked out of Code S if they switched to SC2--maybe/hopefully."

Would the article be impressive if it said "If the top players of BW switched, they might possibly be as good as one of the players of SC2, hopefully, keeping fingers crossed."

Would the article be relevant if the article said "I think it might be possible that a few players in BW might almost be as relevant as MVP if they switched to BW."

The article is saying that MVP is mediocre. What do you think "mediocre" means?
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
TheSubtleArt
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada2527 Posts
February 07 2012 12:47 GMT
#5105
On February 06 2012 08:09 lorkac wrote:
I wonder how many people are actually defending the original article's argument (MVP and others are a sham because current BW pros are better) and are actually defending SC2 (MVP and others are great examples of why BW experience is superior to non-BW experience but Forgg's lack of results show that it's not the be all end all of SC2)

Tldr: unless you think MVP is a horrible player that could get roflstomped by low level BW pros in SC2--you're actually defending SC2 according to this article.

MVP was actually on a hugestreak before he switched...a streak that included wins over Snow, Flash, Baby, Best, Stork, Bogus and Kal, which is an incredibly strong lineup of players.
Dodge arrows
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
February 07 2012 13:01 GMT
#5106
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch
Is wrong. Any revisionist justification of this is rubbish. Flash will be amazing at SC2, Bisu will be amazing at SC2. But the point of the article is just wrong. This thread should be closed.
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
February 07 2012 13:44 GMT
#5107
On February 07 2012 21:47 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2012 08:09 lorkac wrote:
I wonder how many people are actually defending the original article's argument (MVP and others are a sham because current BW pros are better) and are actually defending SC2 (MVP and others are great examples of why BW experience is superior to non-BW experience but Forgg's lack of results show that it's not the be all end all of SC2)

Tldr: unless you think MVP is a horrible player that could get roflstomped by low level BW pros in SC2--you're actually defending SC2 according to this article.

MVP was actually on a hugestreak before he switched...a streak that included wins over Snow, Flash, Baby, Best, Stork, Bogus and Kal, which is an incredibly strong lineup of players.


So are you saying that good BW players (like MVP) can be as good in SC2 as bad BW players (like Nestea/MMA/MC) proving that how good you are in BW does not directly relate to how well you'll do in SC2--but does help. + Show Spoiler +
Which would mean you disagree with the article.


Or

Do you mean that SC2 is not a sham because it already has good BW players in it meaning that the competition it's had has actually been impressive because good BW players have been in it since the beginning. + Show Spoiler +
Which also means you disagree with the article.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
February 07 2012 13:57 GMT
#5108
On February 07 2012 22:01 MCDayC wrote:
Show nested quote +
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch
Is wrong. Any revisionist justification of this is rubbish. Flash will be amazing at SC2, Bisu will be amazing at SC2. But the point of the article is just wrong. This thread should be closed.


100% agree. I think we are past the point where this thread is meaningful in any way shape or form.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
valaki
Profile Joined June 2009
Hungary2476 Posts
February 07 2012 14:04 GMT
#5109
I love how everytime this thread gets bumped I instantly know ex-bw players lost some games.
ggaemo fan
pdd
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia9933 Posts
February 07 2012 14:05 GMT
#5110
On February 07 2012 23:04 valaki wrote:
I love how everytime this thread gets bumped I instantly know ex-bw players lost some games.

It was first bumped when fOrGG had his Code A streak.
TI4 Champions: EE-Sama | B7-God | A-God_2000 | Kappa Lord | pieliedie
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-07 14:21:35
February 07 2012 14:17 GMT
#5111
I bumped it because i read a post where somebody boasted that they'd bet 100 usd that future BW pros would not do any better than ForGG lol.
Sarang
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia2363 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-07 16:39:10
February 07 2012 14:25 GMT
#5112
On February 06 2012 08:09 SovSov wrote:
This thread is so irrelevant now.

Not only was it a pretty stupid post at its time (for a various number of reasons that the bias writer didn't care to mention), but now it is stupid AND irrelevant because the competition is no longer a "farce".


Exactly!

The overall skill of Starcraft 2 players has risen dramatically since this article was written

Imagine if you could transport NesTea or Mvp back to face FruitDealer in GSL1. Or MMA, DongRaeGu or Leenock. Or Oz, MC, Happy, GuMiHo, Bomber, SuperNoVa, Polt, GanZi, Jjakji ... the list goes on. Any of the players listed would absolutely destroy the FruitDealer who won the first GSL.

In fact I believe that every single player I just listed now plays on a much higher standard than we saw in the first 3 GSL's.

It was a stupid article when it was written and it's an even stupider one now.
"Killer helped me feel better before coming to the arena. He told me to say that." - Bomber
TheSubtleArt
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada2527 Posts
February 07 2012 14:41 GMT
#5113
On February 07 2012 22:44 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2012 21:47 TheSubtleArt wrote:
On February 06 2012 08:09 lorkac wrote:
I wonder how many people are actually defending the original article's argument (MVP and others are a sham because current BW pros are better) and are actually defending SC2 (MVP and others are great examples of why BW experience is superior to non-BW experience but Forgg's lack of results show that it's not the be all end all of SC2)

Tldr: unless you think MVP is a horrible player that could get roflstomped by low level BW pros in SC2--you're actually defending SC2 according to this article.

MVP was actually on a hugestreak before he switched...a streak that included wins over Snow, Flash, Baby, Best, Stork, Bogus and Kal, which is an incredibly strong lineup of players.


So are you saying that good BW players (like MVP) can be as good in SC2 as bad BW players (like Nestea/MMA/MC) proving that how good you are in BW does not directly relate to how well you'll do in SC2--but does help. + Show Spoiler +
Which would mean you disagree with the article.


Or

Do you mean that SC2 is not a sham because it already has good BW players in it meaning that the competition it's had has actually been impressive because good BW players have been in it since the beginning. + Show Spoiler +
Which also means you disagree with the article.

My opinion is that the article is over 9 months old and thus obsolete. The scene has changed, players are more skilled, players practice more, and most team houses have more rigid practice schedules than they did last may, making this article irrelevant and a waste of time to discuss
Dodge arrows
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
February 07 2012 14:59 GMT
#5114
On February 07 2012 23:41 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2012 22:44 lorkac wrote:
On February 07 2012 21:47 TheSubtleArt wrote:
On February 06 2012 08:09 lorkac wrote:
I wonder how many people are actually defending the original article's argument (MVP and others are a sham because current BW pros are better) and are actually defending SC2 (MVP and others are great examples of why BW experience is superior to non-BW experience but Forgg's lack of results show that it's not the be all end all of SC2)

Tldr: unless you think MVP is a horrible player that could get roflstomped by low level BW pros in SC2--you're actually defending SC2 according to this article.

MVP was actually on a hugestreak before he switched...a streak that included wins over Snow, Flash, Baby, Best, Stork, Bogus and Kal, which is an incredibly strong lineup of players.


So are you saying that good BW players (like MVP) can be as good in SC2 as bad BW players (like Nestea/MMA/MC) proving that how good you are in BW does not directly relate to how well you'll do in SC2--but does help. + Show Spoiler +
Which would mean you disagree with the article.


Or

Do you mean that SC2 is not a sham because it already has good BW players in it meaning that the competition it's had has actually been impressive because good BW players have been in it since the beginning. + Show Spoiler +
Which also means you disagree with the article.

My opinion is that the article is over 9 months old and thus obsolete. The scene has changed, players are more skilled, players practice more, and most team houses have more rigid practice schedules than they did last may, making this article irrelevant and a waste of time to discuss


Cool glad we agree that the article is bogus.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
February 07 2012 16:24 GMT
#5115
Was the Hyun that lost today the same Hyun that was a pretty good BW player?
TheSubtleArt
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada2527 Posts
February 07 2012 17:09 GMT
#5116
On February 07 2012 23:59 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2012 23:41 TheSubtleArt wrote:
On February 07 2012 22:44 lorkac wrote:
On February 07 2012 21:47 TheSubtleArt wrote:
On February 06 2012 08:09 lorkac wrote:
I wonder how many people are actually defending the original article's argument (MVP and others are a sham because current BW pros are better) and are actually defending SC2 (MVP and others are great examples of why BW experience is superior to non-BW experience but Forgg's lack of results show that it's not the be all end all of SC2)

Tldr: unless you think MVP is a horrible player that could get roflstomped by low level BW pros in SC2--you're actually defending SC2 according to this article.

MVP was actually on a hugestreak before he switched...a streak that included wins over Snow, Flash, Baby, Best, Stork, Bogus and Kal, which is an incredibly strong lineup of players.


So are you saying that good BW players (like MVP) can be as good in SC2 as bad BW players (like Nestea/MMA/MC) proving that how good you are in BW does not directly relate to how well you'll do in SC2--but does help. + Show Spoiler +
Which would mean you disagree with the article.


Or

Do you mean that SC2 is not a sham because it already has good BW players in it meaning that the competition it's had has actually been impressive because good BW players have been in it since the beginning. + Show Spoiler +
Which also means you disagree with the article.

My opinion is that the article is over 9 months old and thus obsolete. The scene has changed, players are more skilled, players practice more, and most team houses have more rigid practice schedules than they did last may, making this article irrelevant and a waste of time to discuss


Cool glad we agree that the article is bogus.

Not saying it was bogus, it might have been true at the time, but it's just outdated now. It's like looking at current balance in a matchup by analysing games and winrates that are almost a year old....it's useless and far too much has changed.

Dodge arrows
Spitmode
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany1510 Posts
February 07 2012 17:12 GMT
#5117
so where is all the famous bw pro gamers "dominating the sc2 scene when they switch over?" havent read so much bullshit in quite a while...
"Make house -> Robots come out of house -> Robots shoot lazers -> Someone wins"
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-07 18:04:59
February 07 2012 18:03 GMT
#5118
On February 08 2012 01:24 Azzur wrote:
Was the Hyun that lost today the same Hyun that was a pretty good BW player?


Yes, hence why this horrible thread was bumped. It was resting peacefully until hotbid came and resurrected it when forgg won a few code a games, and it has ever since been beaten mercilessly with a stick by bw fanboys and then by sc2 players that would bump it every time forgg would lose.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
foxmulder_ms
Profile Joined February 2011
United States140 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-07 18:40:42
February 07 2012 18:38 GMT
#5119
People who say this article is stupid, cannot read or cannot comprehend what they are reading. The article sits on very solid facts. They were not ideas at all. Write down all the successful SC2 players, they are all below average (not S-class, may be low A class) broodwar players. This is a fact. July and boxer (my favorite player) were legends but still they were not successful for years in broodwar before they switch. This is a fact, too. MVP, the most successful SC2 player were also the most successful broodwar player (among the sc2 players of course) when the sc2 switch happened. Another fact for you.

After HOTS release, I believe some top Koreans, A- and maybe some S-class will switch to sc2 (most of them will retire but some will switch) and they have extremely strong chance to be very good on sc2, too.

There is another possibility, though. If Koreans still favor to follow broodway even after HOTS release, we may never know.. And if the real switch for Korea delays until Legacy of the Void, I expect almost all broodwar legends to retire.
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-07 18:42:28
February 07 2012 18:41 GMT
#5120
On February 08 2012 01:24 Azzur wrote:
Was the Hyun that lost today the same Hyun that was a pretty good BW player?


If you consider a 36% lifetime winrate pretty good (might be slightly higher, I can't find his stats right now), then yeah sure.

edit: damnit, wasn't thinking, why the hell did I post in this thread
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
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