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On February 11 2012 22:04 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 21:47 Hydroxyl wrote:On February 11 2012 21:35 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 21:23 Hydroxyl wrote:On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. That not what claims the writter of this rag, since his point is not about 3 players, but a good 300 that would dominate hard the sc2 scene. Looks like this guy doesn't play sc2 (or Bw, or both) if he doesn't understand the differencies between the 2 games, and thinks mechanics alone, that he considers higher in BW even though they are totally different in both games, so you can't put one above the other, would equal (higher) results (and neglecting the strategy in RT S). The only point I see emerge from the existence of this mess of bold and misinformed statements alone, is how this doesn't deserve a ban from the writter when, if yourself would writte such an baseless slander in sc2 section against sc2, or something similar in BW section against BW, you most probably would get one. Double standarts TL, why TL accepts from its editorial things they wouldn't from their users, isn't TL's brand to be "community" site? It's because it wasn't slander. It's because the article is right. You probably want to look at the commandments 1. 6. and 9. They're rather relevant. Ahah yeah we've seen how right this article is. If you try to mindlessly defend TL for shamelessly advertising their BW fanboyism in a sc2 section, at least don't dig the hole they've set for themselves any further, you're not helping them. This article originally is from the final edits section than tl mods move it to sc2 .
Yeah that's what I mean, it's not the act of an isolated BW apparatchik, this article is supported, despite the disclaimer, by all TL's structure.
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On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more.
Even them would be stomped in their first try trying to qualify in the GSL. The unknown korean players are too much "advanced" now, they have more than one year of playing the game, they played all the situations 100 times, they instinctively know what to do when something unusual happens. You can't replace experience and training in sc2 by just being a genius in bw.
Anyway they'll never play sc2 so...
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On February 11 2012 22:55 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. Even them would be stomped in their first try trying to qualify in the GSL. The unknown korean players are too much "advanced" now, they have more than one year of playing the game, they played all the situations 100 times, they instinctively know what to do when something unusual happens. You can't replace experience and training in sc2 by just being a genius in bw. Anyway they'll never play sc2 so...
HyuN and ForGG qualified on their first try. I don't see why Flash, Bisu and Jaedong couldn't do the same.
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On February 11 2012 22:58 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 22:55 MrCon wrote:On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. Even them would be stomped in their first try trying to qualify in the GSL. The unknown korean players are too much "advanced" now, they have more than one year of playing the game, they played all the situations 100 times, they instinctively know what to do when something unusual happens. You can't replace experience and training in sc2 by just being a genius in bw. Anyway they'll never play sc2 so... HyuN and ForGG qualified on their first try. I don't see why Flash, Bisu and Jaedong couldn't do the same.
Its all based on how much they played before, ForGG plays sc2 since what? half a year?
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On February 11 2012 23:25 Darksoldierr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 22:58 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 22:55 MrCon wrote:On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. Even them would be stomped in their first try trying to qualify in the GSL. The unknown korean players are too much "advanced" now, they have more than one year of playing the game, they played all the situations 100 times, they instinctively know what to do when something unusual happens. You can't replace experience and training in sc2 by just being a genius in bw. Anyway they'll never play sc2 so... HyuN and ForGG qualified on their first try. I don't see why Flash, Bisu and Jaedong couldn't do the same. Its all based on how much they played before, ForGG plays sc2 since what? half a year?
I'm pretty sure it's already around 10 months
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On February 11 2012 23:25 Darksoldierr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 22:58 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 22:55 MrCon wrote:On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. Even them would be stomped in their first try trying to qualify in the GSL. The unknown korean players are too much "advanced" now, they have more than one year of playing the game, they played all the situations 100 times, they instinctively know what to do when something unusual happens. You can't replace experience and training in sc2 by just being a genius in bw. Anyway they'll never play sc2 so... HyuN and ForGG qualified on their first try. I don't see why Flash, Bisu and Jaedong couldn't do the same. Its all based on how much they played before, ForGG plays sc2 since what? half a year?
But we were talking about on their first try. Or did he mean that they would try to qualify by playing their very first games in the qualifiers? That would be just silly.
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On February 11 2012 22:26 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 22:00 Longshank wrote:On February 11 2012 21:22 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate. The point of the OP was that there are a bunch of former and current progamers who have the potential to dominate. He acknowledges that some might not. Let us look at the current top Korean players. Almost everyone is from BW. Now notice that he made a distinction between crushing and dominating. The BW pros are dominating but since they were mostly of more or less the same level in BW nobody is crushing. We haven't seen the players switch who have the potential to crush. I can say with a very straight face that if 100 lower tier BW pros switched, then they would dominate the scene. Of course that does not mean they would crush the other former BW players but that is not inconsistent with the article. Crushing or not, dominate would mean they'd do better than the current top SC2 players. From what we've seen so far, that is VERY inaccurate and far from reality. HyuN isn't dominating anyone and forGG has shown that a year of laddering hardcore and six months of in-house training wasn't enough for him. Don't try to downplay the projected numbers in the OP, they're essential to the point he's trying to make. No one is arguing that there are current(at the time) BW pros that will do well and potentially dominate SC2. Heck, forGG and HyuN might do so in time, the OP would still be wrong. The number of players and the time frame are the core of his argument in showing just how much of a farce the competition has been. He even says so himself. If you read the article again you will find that it would not make sense for him to claim that a lesser BW player than MVP would dominate say MVP. There weren't 300 pros better than MVP. He is arguing they will do better only insofar as the better BW players switch. He is not saying a lesser BW player will come and dominate someone like MVP. What has happened is that lesser BW players have switched and they were of around the same skill level and thus nobody is crushing the competition. I would say ForGG and HyuN have done quite well. When we look at players without BW background, not many have even succeeded in qualifying to code A. Let alone code S. When it comes to the weekly tournaments, well, I don't really put much weight on those. Of course... they were. But I'm sure you understand it that what he said then was said then and not now. The skill level has risen by quite a bit and that is why many who agree with the article are willingly admitting that it wouldn't be the case anymore that the lower tier players could switch and dominate fast. That is because they are rational. HyuN was still able to qualify even with the higher skill level. I think that is a testament to how good the BW pros were. The article may not have been entirely accurate, I can give you that much, but it still stands. The competition was and is still missing the greatest talent in RTS, the progamers from BW. That is why I still feel like I am watching not the NHL but the Euro Hockey Tour.
So the skill gap to mvp wasn't big enough, that's fair. What about terrible players such as MC and Nestea? Was the skill gap to Hyun big enough for the point the OP was trying to make? Surely he meant for forGG and Hyun to dominate them{'a few' months' has already passed)? If not, who the hell were all these BW pros and semi-pros supposed to dominate?? If you wanted to win GSL at the time of the article, these guys were the competition, the one that was a farce.
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A.) hyun and forGG haven't even faced MVP yet. So far taeja and leenock are too much for them.
B.) hyun is in the top 100 of bw players if you simply go to liquipedia and physically count the number of programmers.
The top 50-100 bw players will be about as good and dominating as players like Yugioh and tassadar. In that they'll be good enough to conquer code a but get raped in code s.
it's arguable that the top 50-25 will possibly be as good as alive and genius. Solid code s presence, not clear favorites.
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Which would mean that the competition in BW is exactly the same as the competition in SC2 if you're argument transForma into "the top 20 in bw will do as well as the top 20 in SC2"
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On February 12 2012 00:05 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 22:26 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 22:00 Longshank wrote:On February 11 2012 21:22 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate. The point of the OP was that there are a bunch of former and current progamers who have the potential to dominate. He acknowledges that some might not. Let us look at the current top Korean players. Almost everyone is from BW. Now notice that he made a distinction between crushing and dominating. The BW pros are dominating but since they were mostly of more or less the same level in BW nobody is crushing. We haven't seen the players switch who have the potential to crush. I can say with a very straight face that if 100 lower tier BW pros switched, then they would dominate the scene. Of course that does not mean they would crush the other former BW players but that is not inconsistent with the article. Crushing or not, dominate would mean they'd do better than the current top SC2 players. From what we've seen so far, that is VERY inaccurate and far from reality. HyuN isn't dominating anyone and forGG has shown that a year of laddering hardcore and six months of in-house training wasn't enough for him. Don't try to downplay the projected numbers in the OP, they're essential to the point he's trying to make. No one is arguing that there are current(at the time) BW pros that will do well and potentially dominate SC2. Heck, forGG and HyuN might do so in time, the OP would still be wrong. The number of players and the time frame are the core of his argument in showing just how much of a farce the competition has been. He even says so himself. If you read the article again you will find that it would not make sense for him to claim that a lesser BW player than MVP would dominate say MVP. There weren't 300 pros better than MVP. He is arguing they will do better only insofar as the better BW players switch. He is not saying a lesser BW player will come and dominate someone like MVP. What has happened is that lesser BW players have switched and they were of around the same skill level and thus nobody is crushing the competition. I would say ForGG and HyuN have done quite well. When we look at players without BW background, not many have even succeeded in qualifying to code A. Let alone code S. When it comes to the weekly tournaments, well, I don't really put much weight on those. Of course... they were. But I'm sure you understand it that what he said then was said then and not now. The skill level has risen by quite a bit and that is why many who agree with the article are willingly admitting that it wouldn't be the case anymore that the lower tier players could switch and dominate fast. That is because they are rational. HyuN was still able to qualify even with the higher skill level. I think that is a testament to how good the BW pros were. The article may not have been entirely accurate, I can give you that much, but it still stands. The competition was and is still missing the greatest talent in RTS, the progamers from BW. That is why I still feel like I am watching not the NHL but the Euro Hockey Tour. So the skill gap to mvp wasn't big enough, that's fair. What about terrible players such as MC and Nestea? Was the skill gap to Hyun big enough for the point the OP was trying to make? Surely he meant for forGG and Hyun to dominate them{'a few' months' has already passed)? If not, who the hell were all these BW pros and semi-pros supposed to dominate??
As I said the article was written a year ago not now. I'm sure Intrigue didn't expect it to stay that way indefinitely. There has been a somewhat rapid increase in the skill level and naturally as time progresses it will be harder to switch. Despite this, it did take HyuN around 2 months to qualify to code A. Of this only around a month is what he would call "real-practise". I don't think anyone but a BW pro has pulled something like that off. And HyuN is still nothing special when it comes to BW.
And ForGG? He may have had accounts at the top of GM for a long time but that does not mean he played very seriously. In fact there is a good reason to think he didn't. He didn't play tournaments. And when he finally did, his run, straight to code S, however, was still highly impressive.
They are supposed to dominate the non-BW players of course. And ForGG has done quite well against Polt who I claim is the best non-BW pro. Now, assuming that A-teamers and S-class switch, then they should dominate the lesser BW players in turn. This doesn't mean that it will be an exact change however. Intrigue said "potential to dominate" for a reason. Some will do better than others but in general this is what you should expect to happen. If the entire scene of BW pros would change, you would see the top of SC2 as very different from now.
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On February 12 2012 00:31 lorkac wrote:
A.) hyun and forGG haven't even faced MVP yet. So far taeja and leenock are too much for them.
B.) hyun is in the top 100 of bw players if you simply go to liquipedia and physically count the number of programmers.
The top 50-100 bw players will be about as good and dominating as players like Yugioh and tassadar. In that they'll be good enough to conquer code a but get raped in code s.
it's arguable that the top 50-25 will possibly be as good as alive and genius. Solid code s presence, not clear favorites.
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Which would mean that the competition in BW is exactly the same as the competition in SC2 if you're argument transForma into "the top 20 in bw will do as well as the top 20 in SC2"
Using HyuN as an example, and assuming you didn't mean to claim that HyuN will always remain on that level (that would be silly of course considering how little he has played), as you do, your conclusions should include "within short time of practise". HyuN, in this case, has had, by his own word, "real-practise" for less than three months. So what you are saying is that the top 20 of BW will be equal to top 20 of SC2 within that timeframe. The top 25-50 will have solid code S presence in that same timeframe. The top 50-100 will conquer code A. Okay. I'll bite the bullet and take it. Not that I think the argument is very good at all.
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If they take more than a few months of practice--then its no longer their BW past but their strong practice ethic that is pushing them past first round code A.
Did you read the article?
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On February 12 2012 00:59 lorkac wrote:
If they take more than a few months of practice--then its no longer their BW past but their strong practice ethic that is pushing them past first round code A.
Did you read the article?
Why is it then that only those with BW past are able to do this when many people are practising a lot? Moreover, I don't entirely understand why you think it is only strong practise ethic, as you put it, that helps. Not everyone who practises hard will make it. You may have misunderstood something. Nobody claims that having played BW gives them some kind of magical advantage. What the claim is, is that the competition in BW was much fiercer than say in WC3 and thus the people who made it there are not only working hard but also more talented. It is like being good at regional level and then being good at international level. The kids may practise the same amount of time in the beginning but those with talent will progress much faster and much farther. The ones without talent will remain at regional level. That is why having a past in BW matters.
Talent is of course a compex matter and in fact so is work-ethic. That is why Intrigue was speaking of potential to dominate and not automatic domination. This is an important point.
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On February 12 2012 00:35 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 00:05 Longshank wrote:On February 11 2012 22:26 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 22:00 Longshank wrote:On February 11 2012 21:22 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate. The point of the OP was that there are a bunch of former and current progamers who have the potential to dominate. He acknowledges that some might not. Let us look at the current top Korean players. Almost everyone is from BW. Now notice that he made a distinction between crushing and dominating. The BW pros are dominating but since they were mostly of more or less the same level in BW nobody is crushing. We haven't seen the players switch who have the potential to crush. I can say with a very straight face that if 100 lower tier BW pros switched, then they would dominate the scene. Of course that does not mean they would crush the other former BW players but that is not inconsistent with the article. Crushing or not, dominate would mean they'd do better than the current top SC2 players. From what we've seen so far, that is VERY inaccurate and far from reality. HyuN isn't dominating anyone and forGG has shown that a year of laddering hardcore and six months of in-house training wasn't enough for him. Don't try to downplay the projected numbers in the OP, they're essential to the point he's trying to make. No one is arguing that there are current(at the time) BW pros that will do well and potentially dominate SC2. Heck, forGG and HyuN might do so in time, the OP would still be wrong. The number of players and the time frame are the core of his argument in showing just how much of a farce the competition has been. He even says so himself. If you read the article again you will find that it would not make sense for him to claim that a lesser BW player than MVP would dominate say MVP. There weren't 300 pros better than MVP. He is arguing they will do better only insofar as the better BW players switch. He is not saying a lesser BW player will come and dominate someone like MVP. What has happened is that lesser BW players have switched and they were of around the same skill level and thus nobody is crushing the competition. I would say ForGG and HyuN have done quite well. When we look at players without BW background, not many have even succeeded in qualifying to code A. Let alone code S. When it comes to the weekly tournaments, well, I don't really put much weight on those. Of course... they were. But I'm sure you understand it that what he said then was said then and not now. The skill level has risen by quite a bit and that is why many who agree with the article are willingly admitting that it wouldn't be the case anymore that the lower tier players could switch and dominate fast. That is because they are rational. HyuN was still able to qualify even with the higher skill level. I think that is a testament to how good the BW pros were. The article may not have been entirely accurate, I can give you that much, but it still stands. The competition was and is still missing the greatest talent in RTS, the progamers from BW. That is why I still feel like I am watching not the NHL but the Euro Hockey Tour. So the skill gap to mvp wasn't big enough, that's fair. What about terrible players such as MC and Nestea? Was the skill gap to Hyun big enough for the point the OP was trying to make? Surely he meant for forGG and Hyun to dominate them{'a few' months' has already passed)? If not, who the hell were all these BW pros and semi-pros supposed to dominate?? They are supposed to dominate the non-BW players of course. And ForGG has done quite well against Polt who I claim is the best non-BW pro. Now, assuming that A-teamers and S-class switch, then they should dominate the lesser BW players in turn. This doesn't mean that it will be an exact change however. Intrigue said "potential to dominate" for a reason. Some will do better than others but in general this is what you should expect to happen. If the entire scene of BW pros would change, you would see the top of SC2 as very different from now.
Hehe, good one. No wonder there is confusion if he by SC2 scene actually meant non-BW players which would exclude 90% of the SC2 players in Korea. So the competition he referred to as a farce wasn't actually GSL where a majority were ex BW players but...Zotac?
Atleast we can agree on that this trainwreck of a thread has no relevance anymore and should therefor be locked.
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On February 12 2012 01:20 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 00:35 Squeegy wrote:On February 12 2012 00:05 Longshank wrote:On February 11 2012 22:26 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 22:00 Longshank wrote:On February 11 2012 21:22 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate. The point of the OP was that there are a bunch of former and current progamers who have the potential to dominate. He acknowledges that some might not. Let us look at the current top Korean players. Almost everyone is from BW. Now notice that he made a distinction between crushing and dominating. The BW pros are dominating but since they were mostly of more or less the same level in BW nobody is crushing. We haven't seen the players switch who have the potential to crush. I can say with a very straight face that if 100 lower tier BW pros switched, then they would dominate the scene. Of course that does not mean they would crush the other former BW players but that is not inconsistent with the article. Crushing or not, dominate would mean they'd do better than the current top SC2 players. From what we've seen so far, that is VERY inaccurate and far from reality. HyuN isn't dominating anyone and forGG has shown that a year of laddering hardcore and six months of in-house training wasn't enough for him. Don't try to downplay the projected numbers in the OP, they're essential to the point he's trying to make. No one is arguing that there are current(at the time) BW pros that will do well and potentially dominate SC2. Heck, forGG and HyuN might do so in time, the OP would still be wrong. The number of players and the time frame are the core of his argument in showing just how much of a farce the competition has been. He even says so himself. If you read the article again you will find that it would not make sense for him to claim that a lesser BW player than MVP would dominate say MVP. There weren't 300 pros better than MVP. He is arguing they will do better only insofar as the better BW players switch. He is not saying a lesser BW player will come and dominate someone like MVP. What has happened is that lesser BW players have switched and they were of around the same skill level and thus nobody is crushing the competition. I would say ForGG and HyuN have done quite well. When we look at players without BW background, not many have even succeeded in qualifying to code A. Let alone code S. When it comes to the weekly tournaments, well, I don't really put much weight on those. Of course... they were. But I'm sure you understand it that what he said then was said then and not now. The skill level has risen by quite a bit and that is why many who agree with the article are willingly admitting that it wouldn't be the case anymore that the lower tier players could switch and dominate fast. That is because they are rational. HyuN was still able to qualify even with the higher skill level. I think that is a testament to how good the BW pros were. The article may not have been entirely accurate, I can give you that much, but it still stands. The competition was and is still missing the greatest talent in RTS, the progamers from BW. That is why I still feel like I am watching not the NHL but the Euro Hockey Tour. So the skill gap to mvp wasn't big enough, that's fair. What about terrible players such as MC and Nestea? Was the skill gap to Hyun big enough for the point the OP was trying to make? Surely he meant for forGG and Hyun to dominate them{'a few' months' has already passed)? If not, who the hell were all these BW pros and semi-pros supposed to dominate?? They are supposed to dominate the non-BW players of course. And ForGG has done quite well against Polt who I claim is the best non-BW pro. Now, assuming that A-teamers and S-class switch, then they should dominate the lesser BW players in turn. This doesn't mean that it will be an exact change however. Intrigue said "potential to dominate" for a reason. Some will do better than others but in general this is what you should expect to happen. If the entire scene of BW pros would change, you would see the top of SC2 as very different from now. Hehe, good one. No wonder there is confusion if he by SC2 scene actually meant non-BW players which would exclude 90% of the SC2 players in Korea. So the competition he referred to as a farce wasn't actually GSL where a majority were ex BW players but...Zotac? Atleast we can agree on that this trainwreck of a thread has no relevance anymore and should therefor be locked.
If you don't think it has any relevance then stop posting in it...
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Just because HuyN got to code A on the first try doesn't mean he is that good yet. It's been proven over and over again that the preliminaries is really random. I'm sure a lot of people agree that players like TaiLs, TREME, Sage, Min, Symbol, Sleep, Yoda, Revival,... are all better than HyuN, but the didn't get through code A. One time to code A means nothing, really.
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On February 12 2012 02:12 randomKo_Orean wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 00:31 lorkac wrote:
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Zergbong, MBC Toss, and Woongjin Terran getting compared to those 4 players? You should be arrested for blasphemy.
Why? It's clear that if flash jangbi stork and fantasy switch to SC2 they will not be anywhere near the level of MC MVP and nestea for quite a while. Someday I'm sure they will be, they might even become better if they train hard enough, but in SC2 to say they will be worse for quite a while is not any sort of stretch. Now please quit with the utter bias and try to be a bit more rational.
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I don't appreciate how OP invalidates the SC2 scene to such a degree. Is this foreigner envy at play here? If not, then it's basically a long-winded BW > SC2 post.
/edit
I mean, really, a farce?
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On February 12 2012 01:20 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 00:35 Squeegy wrote:On February 12 2012 00:05 Longshank wrote:On February 11 2012 22:26 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 22:00 Longshank wrote:On February 11 2012 21:22 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate. The point of the OP was that there are a bunch of former and current progamers who have the potential to dominate. He acknowledges that some might not. Let us look at the current top Korean players. Almost everyone is from BW. Now notice that he made a distinction between crushing and dominating. The BW pros are dominating but since they were mostly of more or less the same level in BW nobody is crushing. We haven't seen the players switch who have the potential to crush. I can say with a very straight face that if 100 lower tier BW pros switched, then they would dominate the scene. Of course that does not mean they would crush the other former BW players but that is not inconsistent with the article. Crushing or not, dominate would mean they'd do better than the current top SC2 players. From what we've seen so far, that is VERY inaccurate and far from reality. HyuN isn't dominating anyone and forGG has shown that a year of laddering hardcore and six months of in-house training wasn't enough for him. Don't try to downplay the projected numbers in the OP, they're essential to the point he's trying to make. No one is arguing that there are current(at the time) BW pros that will do well and potentially dominate SC2. Heck, forGG and HyuN might do so in time, the OP would still be wrong. The number of players and the time frame are the core of his argument in showing just how much of a farce the competition has been. He even says so himself. If you read the article again you will find that it would not make sense for him to claim that a lesser BW player than MVP would dominate say MVP. There weren't 300 pros better than MVP. He is arguing they will do better only insofar as the better BW players switch. He is not saying a lesser BW player will come and dominate someone like MVP. What has happened is that lesser BW players have switched and they were of around the same skill level and thus nobody is crushing the competition. I would say ForGG and HyuN have done quite well. When we look at players without BW background, not many have even succeeded in qualifying to code A. Let alone code S. When it comes to the weekly tournaments, well, I don't really put much weight on those. Of course... they were. But I'm sure you understand it that what he said then was said then and not now. The skill level has risen by quite a bit and that is why many who agree with the article are willingly admitting that it wouldn't be the case anymore that the lower tier players could switch and dominate fast. That is because they are rational. HyuN was still able to qualify even with the higher skill level. I think that is a testament to how good the BW pros were. The article may not have been entirely accurate, I can give you that much, but it still stands. The competition was and is still missing the greatest talent in RTS, the progamers from BW. That is why I still feel like I am watching not the NHL but the Euro Hockey Tour. So the skill gap to mvp wasn't big enough, that's fair. What about terrible players such as MC and Nestea? Was the skill gap to Hyun big enough for the point the OP was trying to make? Surely he meant for forGG and Hyun to dominate them{'a few' months' has already passed)? If not, who the hell were all these BW pros and semi-pros supposed to dominate?? They are supposed to dominate the non-BW players of course. And ForGG has done quite well against Polt who I claim is the best non-BW pro. Now, assuming that A-teamers and S-class switch, then they should dominate the lesser BW players in turn. This doesn't mean that it will be an exact change however. Intrigue said "potential to dominate" for a reason. Some will do better than others but in general this is what you should expect to happen. If the entire scene of BW pros would change, you would see the top of SC2 as very different from now. Hehe, good one. No wonder there is confusion if he by SC2 scene actually meant non-BW players which would exclude 90% of the SC2 players in Korea. So the competition he referred to as a farce wasn't actually GSL where a majority were ex BW players but...Zotac? Atleast we can agree on that this trainwreck of a thread has no relevance anymore and should therefor be locked.
But there is a reason why majority of GSL players are from BW. It's because others aren't good enough to qualify. Then there is of course the foreigner scene which is not much of a match to the Korean one. The competition is a farce, or at least was, because the most talented players do not play SC2. It is like those hockey tournaments where the best players do not play. The teams take what they can get from NHL because they are still better than the rest and the best of NHL rarely play. We get to see reasonably skilled hockey but the teams just aren't as good as they could be. What then does a world championship mean when the two finalists fielded a B-team? Not as much as it could. Farce in that sense.
On February 12 2012 02:33 canikizu wrote:
Just because HuyN got to code A on the first try doesn't mean he is that good yet. It's been proven over and over again that the preliminaries is really random. I'm sure a lot of people agree that players like TaiLs, TREME, Sage, Min, Symbol, Sleep, Yoda, Revival,... are all better than HyuN, but the didn't get through code A. One time to code A means nothing, really.
Not commenting on whether HyuN is better or worse than the players you mentioned, I do agree with you on this: You cannot draw many conclusions from it yet. Just as you cannot draw many conclusions from HyuN and ForGG not crushing their opposition.
But with that being said, the fact that they did so well is still evidence. But not that strong evidence.
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On February 11 2012 22:26 Hydroxyl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 22:04 Sawamura wrote:On February 11 2012 21:47 Hydroxyl wrote:On February 11 2012 21:35 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 21:23 Hydroxyl wrote:On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. That not what claims the writter of this rag, since his point is not about 3 players, but a good 300 that would dominate hard the sc2 scene. Looks like this guy doesn't play sc2 (or Bw, or both) if he doesn't understand the differencies between the 2 games, and thinks mechanics alone, that he considers higher in BW even though they are totally different in both games, so you can't put one above the other, would equal (higher) results (and neglecting the strategy in RT S). The only point I see emerge from the existence of this mess of bold and misinformed statements alone, is how this doesn't deserve a ban from the writter when, if yourself would writte such an baseless slander in sc2 section against sc2, or something similar in BW section against BW, you most probably would get one. Double standarts TL, why TL accepts from its editorial things they wouldn't from their users, isn't TL's brand to be "community" site? It's because it wasn't slander. It's because the article is right. You probably want to look at the commandments 1. 6. and 9. They're rather relevant. Ahah yeah we've seen how right this article is. If you try to mindlessly defend TL for shamelessly advertising their BW fanboyism in a sc2 section, at least don't dig the hole they've set for themselves any further, you're not helping them. This article originally is from the final edits section than tl mods move it to sc2 . Yeah that's what I mean, it's not the act of an isolated BW apparatchik, this article is supported, despite the disclaimer, by all TL's structure.
Clearly all this thread was missing was bizarre conspiracy theories about mods..
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EPT
