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On February 12 2012 00:31 lorkac wrote:
A.) hyun and forGG haven't even faced MVP yet. So far taeja and leenock are too much for them.
B.) hyun is in the top 100 of bw players if you simply go to liquipedia and physically count the number of programmers.
The top 50-100 bw players will be about as good and dominating as players like Yugioh and tassadar. In that they'll be good enough to conquer code a but get raped in code s.
it's arguable that the top 50-25 will possibly be as good as alive and genius. Solid code s presence, not clear favorites.
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Which would mean that the competition in BW is exactly the same as the competition in SC2 if you're argument transForma into "the top 20 in bw will do as well as the top 20 in SC2"
So you are extrapolating the results of 2 to fit the results of hundreds...
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On February 12 2012 09:08 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 00:31 lorkac wrote:
A.) hyun and forGG haven't even faced MVP yet. So far taeja and leenock are too much for them.
B.) hyun is in the top 100 of bw players if you simply go to liquipedia and physically count the number of programmers.
The top 50-100 bw players will be about as good and dominating as players like Yugioh and tassadar. In that they'll be good enough to conquer code a but get raped in code s.
it's arguable that the top 50-25 will possibly be as good as alive and genius. Solid code s presence, not clear favorites.
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Which would mean that the competition in BW is exactly the same as the competition in SC2 if you're argument transForma into "the top 20 in bw will do as well as the top 20 in SC2"
So you are extrapolating the results of 2 to fit the results of hundreds...
I think that's what a lot of people are doing. But at the same time they're defending that aggressive reasoning by pointing out the exaggeration of what the OP claimed. Which really works out for them because they can shit on BW all they like at the same time.
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On February 12 2012 09:08 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 00:31 lorkac wrote:
A.) hyun and forGG haven't even faced MVP yet. So far taeja and leenock are too much for them.
B.) hyun is in the top 100 of bw players if you simply go to liquipedia and physically count the number of programmers.
The top 50-100 bw players will be about as good and dominating as players like Yugioh and tassadar. In that they'll be good enough to conquer code a but get raped in code s.
it's arguable that the top 50-25 will possibly be as good as alive and genius. Solid code s presence, not clear favorites.
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Which would mean that the competition in BW is exactly the same as the competition in SC2 if you're argument transForma into "the top 20 in bw will do as well as the top 20 in SC2"
So you are extrapolating the results of 2 to fit the results of hundreds...
Specifically I'm using the failures of the top 100 BW players to suggest that the top 300 are most likely not going to do as well unless, of course, BW experience doesnt matter in which case the OP is wrong. If BW experience does matter then 100% of the only evidence is only doing as well as they're respective "ranks" ie, two players below rank 50 are able to beat the sc2 players who are below rank 50 in the world--suggesting that the players above rank 50 in BW will do as well as players in the top 50 of sc2.
Unless of course BW experience matters less than overall RTS experience--in which case the OP is wrong.
In both cases the OP would be wrong regardless.
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On February 12 2012 10:00 Madder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:08 writer22816 wrote:On February 12 2012 00:31 lorkac wrote:
A.) hyun and forGG haven't even faced MVP yet. So far taeja and leenock are too much for them.
B.) hyun is in the top 100 of bw players if you simply go to liquipedia and physically count the number of programmers.
The top 50-100 bw players will be about as good and dominating as players like Yugioh and tassadar. In that they'll be good enough to conquer code a but get raped in code s.
it's arguable that the top 50-25 will possibly be as good as alive and genius. Solid code s presence, not clear favorites.
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Which would mean that the competition in BW is exactly the same as the competition in SC2 if you're argument transForma into "the top 20 in bw will do as well as the top 20 in SC2"
So you are extrapolating the results of 2 to fit the results of hundreds... I think that's what a lot of people are doing. But at the same time they're defending that aggressive reasoning by pointing out the exaggeration of what the OP claimed. Which really works out for them because they can shit on BW all they like at the same time.
No one is shitting on BW. People are shitting on the idea that any BW A-teamer could come in and in 2 months be the best at the game. So far current evidence is that this isnt the case and that the BW pro's when they come wont revolutionize the game but will fit in with some in code A and some in code S and some maybe not even making it that far.
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On February 12 2012 10:00 Madder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:08 writer22816 wrote:On February 12 2012 00:31 lorkac wrote:
A.) hyun and forGG haven't even faced MVP yet. So far taeja and leenock are too much for them.
B.) hyun is in the top 100 of bw players if you simply go to liquipedia and physically count the number of programmers.
The top 50-100 bw players will be about as good and dominating as players like Yugioh and tassadar. In that they'll be good enough to conquer code a but get raped in code s.
it's arguable that the top 50-25 will possibly be as good as alive and genius. Solid code s presence, not clear favorites.
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Which would mean that the competition in BW is exactly the same as the competition in SC2 if you're argument transForma into "the top 20 in bw will do as well as the top 20 in SC2"
So you are extrapolating the results of 2 to fit the results of hundreds... I think that's what a lot of people are doing. But at the same time they're defending that aggressive reasoning by pointing out the exaggeration of what the OP claimed. Which really works out for them because they can shit on BW all they like at the same time.
Point me out who exactly is shitting on BW, i dare ya.
Saying the article is extremely exaggerated is not in any way shitting on BW, its simply saying the article is extremely exaggerated.
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On February 12 2012 14:17 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 10:00 Madder wrote:On February 12 2012 09:08 writer22816 wrote:On February 12 2012 00:31 lorkac wrote:
A.) hyun and forGG haven't even faced MVP yet. So far taeja and leenock are too much for them.
B.) hyun is in the top 100 of bw players if you simply go to liquipedia and physically count the number of programmers.
The top 50-100 bw players will be about as good and dominating as players like Yugioh and tassadar. In that they'll be good enough to conquer code a but get raped in code s.
it's arguable that the top 50-25 will possibly be as good as alive and genius. Solid code s presence, not clear favorites.
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Which would mean that the competition in BW is exactly the same as the competition in SC2 if you're argument transForma into "the top 20 in bw will do as well as the top 20 in SC2"
So you are extrapolating the results of 2 to fit the results of hundreds... I think that's what a lot of people are doing. But at the same time they're defending that aggressive reasoning by pointing out the exaggeration of what the OP claimed. Which really works out for them because they can shit on BW all they like at the same time. Point me out who exactly is shitting on BW, i dare ya. Saying the article is extremely exaggerated is not in any way shitting on BW, its simply saying the article is extremely exaggerated.
Search for those posts yourself, I'm sure you can apply yourself to do so.
On February 12 2012 14:17 Assirra wrote:
Saying the article is extremely exaggerated is not in any way shitting on BW, its simply saying the article is extremely exaggerated.
So everyone (because no one is shitting on BW, right?) is correcting the OP like gentlemen. Sounds civil enough to me.
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Amazing unarticle. Unfortunately SC2 simply doesn't require even 30% of the skill BW requires, and I'm an SC2 player. It's really like child's play.
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Correcting something that is both argumentatively and empirically wrong is called common sense.
Article said top 300 could dominate--top 100 couldnt handle code A while forGG couldn't even beat leenock who's BW resume is that he laddered a bit.
Argument wrong.
Prediction wrong.
Evidence available wrong.
Correcting something wrong is called common sense.
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On February 12 2012 14:41 lorkac wrote:
Correcting something that is both argumentatively and empirically wrong is called common sense.
Article said top 300 could dominate--top 100 couldnt handle code A while forGG couldn't even beat leenock who's BW resume is that he laddered a bit.
Argument wrong.
Prediction wrong.
Evidence available wrong.
Correcting something wrong is called common sense.
Apparentely common sense implies twisting an arguement by using examples that came along months after said arguement was published.
edit: especially after the author himself has come out and said he doesn't believe the numbers he originally wrote now apply.
Also Leenock was an amateur who was about to go pro, that's a bit different than laddering.
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I'm surprised people are still discussing this. The thesis of the article has taken a lot of hits with the hyping of ForGG and Hyun. Sure there's more to come, but the burden of proof now lies heavily with Intrigue and HotBid. As is I view this topic as dead.
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On February 12 2012 13:56 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:08 writer22816 wrote:On February 12 2012 00:31 lorkac wrote:
A.) hyun and forGG haven't even faced MVP yet. So far taeja and leenock are too much for them.
B.) hyun is in the top 100 of bw players if you simply go to liquipedia and physically count the number of programmers.
The top 50-100 bw players will be about as good and dominating as players like Yugioh and tassadar. In that they'll be good enough to conquer code a but get raped in code s.
it's arguable that the top 50-25 will possibly be as good as alive and genius. Solid code s presence, not clear favorites.
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Which would mean that the competition in BW is exactly the same as the competition in SC2 if you're argument transForma into "the top 20 in bw will do as well as the top 20 in SC2"
So you are extrapolating the results of 2 to fit the results of hundreds... Specifically I'm using the failures of the top 100 BW players to suggest that the top 300 are most likely not going to do as well unless, of course, BW experience doesnt matter in which case the OP is wrong. If BW experience does matter then 100% of the only evidence is only doing as well as they're respective "ranks" ie, two players below rank 50 are able to beat the sc2 players who are below rank 50 in the world--suggesting that the players above rank 50 in BW will do as well as players in the top 50 of sc2. Unless of course BW experience matters less than overall RTS experience--in which case the OP is wrong. In both cases the OP would be wrong regardless.
No, you are using the results of 2 BW players, who are not even definitely above the skill level of MVP to extrapolate for the entire scene. I don't know if BW players will dominate (that will depend on SC2's skill ceiling which quite frankly I am worried about) but your conclusion is hasty and fallacious.
On February 12 2012 00:59 lorkac wrote:
If they take more than a few months of practice--then its no longer their BW past but their strong practice ethic that is pushing them past first round code A.
Did you read the article?
I don't think you understand the article. The reason why people think BW players will dominate SC2 is not because they play BW and SC2 is the sequel. It's because of experience in playing a highly competitive game in a highly competitive scene that has been around for over a decade. Call it practice ethic, general RTS skill, whatever, these players have the skill to be the best at any competitive RTS. The incredibly high level of skill in BW scene is unmatched by any other RTS and most likely any other game. MVP, MC, Nestea etc were also part of that scene except they were literally the bottom of the barrel.
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On February 12 2012 15:04 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 13:56 lorkac wrote:On February 12 2012 09:08 writer22816 wrote:On February 12 2012 00:31 lorkac wrote:
A.) hyun and forGG haven't even faced MVP yet. So far taeja and leenock are too much for them.
B.) hyun is in the top 100 of bw players if you simply go to liquipedia and physically count the number of programmers.
The top 50-100 bw players will be about as good and dominating as players like Yugioh and tassadar. In that they'll be good enough to conquer code a but get raped in code s.
it's arguable that the top 50-25 will possibly be as good as alive and genius. Solid code s presence, not clear favorites.
When you get to the top 20 of flash and jangbi and stork and fantasy--if they train hard enough, they could be at least as consistent and threatening as nestea, MC and MVP.
Which would mean that the competition in BW is exactly the same as the competition in SC2 if you're argument transForma into "the top 20 in bw will do as well as the top 20 in SC2"
So you are extrapolating the results of 2 to fit the results of hundreds... Specifically I'm using the failures of the top 100 BW players to suggest that the top 300 are most likely not going to do as well unless, of course, BW experience doesnt matter in which case the OP is wrong. If BW experience does matter then 100% of the only evidence is only doing as well as they're respective "ranks" ie, two players below rank 50 are able to beat the sc2 players who are below rank 50 in the world--suggesting that the players above rank 50 in BW will do as well as players in the top 50 of sc2. Unless of course BW experience matters less than overall RTS experience--in which case the OP is wrong. In both cases the OP would be wrong regardless. No, you are using the results of 2 BW players, who are not even definitely above the skill level of MVP to extrapolate for the entire scene. I don't know if BW players will dominate (that will depend on SC2's skill ceiling which quite frankly I am worried about) but your conclusion is hasty and fallacious. Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 00:59 lorkac wrote:
If they take more than a few months of practice--then its no longer their BW past but their strong practice ethic that is pushing them past first round code A.
Did you read the article? I don't think you understand the article. The reason why people think BW players will dominate SC2 is not because they play BW and SC2 is the sequel. It's because of experience in playing a highly competitive game in a highly competitive scene that has been around for over a decade. Call it practice ethic, general RTS skill, whatever, these players have the skill to be the best at any competitive RTS. The incredibly high level of skill in BW scene is unmatched by any other RTS and most likely any other game. MVP, MC, Nestea etc were also part of that scene except they were literally the bottom of the barrel.
Whether they are the best or not both of them are easily considered top100 BW players. The evidence is clearly that there similarities between BW sucess and SC2 success but they dont go 100% hand in hand. Also I wouldnt worry about the sc2 skill cieiling because while the improved UI did fix a lot of the APM boosting mechanics in BW there are other things that while not as pronounced do show a skill difference between players.
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I can't help but laugh when people say skill ceiling. How can there be a "skill ceiling"? And when the "skill ceiling" is reached, does every game end in a draw? No thats not possible because this is a competitive game with lots and lots of variables which desides who wins the game.
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On February 12 2012 15:17 krooked wrote:
I can't help but laugh when people say skill ceiling. How can there be a "skill ceiling"? And when the "skill ceiling" is reached, does every game end in a draw? No thats not possible because this is a competitive game with lots and lots of variables which desides who wins the game.
In theory if 2 players of the same race reached the "skill cieling" then the game would be decided on either who picked the greedier/better all in build or who made a mistake first.
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Stop talking about skill ceilings. No, it will never happen. We're physically incapable of hitting a skill ceiling. Yes, SC2 is a mechanically easier game than BW - obviously, but please stop the skill ceiling crap.
As for this drawn out and boring discussion, I'm pretty sure only the S-class monsters will be able to dominate as hard as you want. Not because they're somehow fueled by the magic of BW, but because they're god damn RTS prodigies. Give them any game, and they will be a force to be reckoned with.
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I'm just REALLY curious what will happen in this thread once the entire BW proleague rosters go to SC2. It will be amazing.
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The skill ceiling is like the elephant...... imaginary!
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On February 12 2012 15:42 Trashie wrote:
Stop talking about skill ceilings. No, it will never happen. We're physically incapable of hitting a skill ceiling. Yes, SC2 is a mechanically easier game than BW - obviously, but please stop the skill ceiling crap.
As for this drawn out and boring discussion, I'm pretty sure only the S-class monsters will be able to dominate as hard as you want. Not because they're somehow fueled by the magic of BW, but because they're god damn RTS prodigies. Give them any game, and they will be a force to be reckoned with.
skill ceiling doesnt matter? sweet, who wants to play me at tic-tac-toe?
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On February 12 2012 15:59 whatusername wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 15:42 Trashie wrote:
Stop talking about skill ceilings. No, it will never happen. We're physically incapable of hitting a skill ceiling. Yes, SC2 is a mechanically easier game than BW - obviously, but please stop the skill ceiling crap.
As for this drawn out and boring discussion, I'm pretty sure only the S-class monsters will be able to dominate as hard as you want. Not because they're somehow fueled by the magic of BW, but because they're god damn RTS prodigies. Give them any game, and they will be a force to be reckoned with. skill ceiling doesnt matter? sweet, who wants to play me at tic-tac-toe?
He's saying that it wouldn't be reached, not that it doesn't matter.
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On February 12 2012 15:49 dsousa wrote:
The skill ceiling is like the elephant...... imaginary!
Depends which skill ceiling you mean, as they're two.
One is the actual "skill ceiling", which represents the max possible level that the game can be played at. This skill ceiling will never be reached, probably not even by machines. Technically if you are fast enough you can make 10000 marines split in just a few seconds, but no human will ever come close to this.
The other is the realistic skill ceiling, that can be reached by players, but only surpassed by machines probably. It's hard to say exactly where this skill ceiling is, as we don't really know. Part of the arguement of this article is that we might think we have reached this skill ceiling but we are wrong.
(In BW, Flash is pretty much the definition of the realistic skill ceiling at the moment.)
There's nothing "imaginary" about the realistic skill ceiling. Humans have limits, even the best ones. To say we can't reach it is silly. Hell, we might have already reached. (This is of course speculation, but it's certainly arguable if you simply watch a lot of the games.) Personally thats why I think Blizz needs to add more micro in the expansions, and not stupid niche units.
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EPT
