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On February 11 2012 15:48 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 15:33 Azzur wrote:
People using the example of MVP, MMA, Leenock, etc would've been top BW players are missing the point - the OP is claiming that the competition in SC2 is a farce, however, the evidence (BW pros switching and not doing well) is showing otherwise. When this article was written the competition in SC2 was a farce. Or did you forget how the games in Code-A looked back then? There has only been two major crossovers in the last year, so there really isn't any evidence to dispute the elephant (Hyun just started in Nov. and he is already Code-A level). I still firmly believe that if the current top BW players switched and dedicated themselves as hard they would be the best.
Again this was not just about the top, why do people not even read the article?
this was about "300 pro's and semi pro's"
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On February 11 2012 15:50 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +ple you play as "ladder lord" are the same people you'll be playing in those competitions, will they be playing a build they devised, no, but they will be playing standard builds most likely......unless its julyzerg.. According to Idra he was saying that it's very rare to encounter a GSL pro on the ladder outside of them practicing random micro/macro to keep up mechanics. All the real play is done in-house.
According to IdrA's stream, his own point is directly contradicted. Seriously... T.T
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That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today.
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On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today.
Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate.
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On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate.
The way the article was worded implied that since the people on top of SC2 were bad at BW then the people who were playing BW at a level above them could switch and within 2 months take there spots and the bad BW players would be related to the spot of bad sc2 players. The fact that these players have improved doesnt change a single thing. The fact remains that they were still bad at BW and the article argued there are really 50-100 people who were better at BW that can destroy these people at sc2 due to them being better gamers overall. With limited examples we have this still hasnt happend yet.
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On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate.
Alongside that are the blind pro-SC2 only fanatics bodly stating, 'where are your BW idols now' when besides all the former BW players from the start, only two former 'good' BW players have switched.
Don't forget that most of them are just nitpicking and taking the golden opportunity to shit on the whole thing.
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On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate.
On top of that, if the claim was continually restricted to smaller numbers, like say the top 10 in BW, then it would also be fairly retarded because then the implications are obvious, and need not be mentioned at all: that the best RTS players would have a statistically high probability of being dominant in another related RTS. This is like the safest thing you can bet on, but that doesn't diminish the entertainment value of the gameplay present then - because that was indeed the best play seen yet in SC2, unless you guys have VODs of TBLS playing SC2 to submit as evidence to tell us that "yeah don't bother watching GSL because those games are played by terrible BW players anyway".
The article seems to be driving home the point that the better you are at BW, the more likely it is that you're going to be better at SC2 with equivalent dominance - which has proven so far to be untrue, because then Nestea/MC shouldn't be performing anywhere near as well as say Hyun or Fin. It has been fairly amusing to watch Hyun getting knocked out so early in just about every SC2 tournament available in KR after reading this article, and it's not because I'm fervently hoping that he's proving the elephant non-existent.
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It's painful to see this article get continually bumped after every single match involving a former BW A-teamer losing a match.
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On February 11 2012 17:11 acrimoneyius wrote:
It's painful to see this article get continually bumped after every single match involving a former BW A-teamer losing a match.
I think you can thank hotbid for starting it by bumping it whenever forgg would win a game.
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The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more.
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On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more.
ehm no. The article is about that the top 200 BW pros could come in and be the best in SC2. That clearly isnt the case so i say that its already been disproved.
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On February 11 2012 21:02 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. ehm no. The article is about that the top 200 BW pros could come in and be the best in SC2. That clearly isnt the case so i say that its already been disproved.
This was written almost a year ago and back then what he was claiming could certainly have been true. It hasn't been proven true or false as the SC2 skill level is alot higher now than it was back then, so they revised the number of BW pros that could dominate.
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On February 11 2012 21:02 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. ehm no. The article is about that the top 200 BW pros could come in and be the best in SC2. That clearly isnt the case so i say that its already been disproved.
Not to be ultra elitist but as an avid BW fan i dont recognise any of the posters saying that only a few progamers will dominate, so i feel supporters of the article are being misrepresented. The number is certainly not 300 as proBW has gone through some streamlining, more like 100 -150. I firmly believe the article is still true if only by virtue of SC2's top 20.
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On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate.
The point of the OP was that there are a bunch of former and current progamers who have the potential to dominate. He acknowledges that some might not. Let us look at the current top Korean players. Almost everyone is from BW. Now notice that he made a distinction between crushing and dominating. The BW pros are dominating but since they were mostly of more or less the same level in BW nobody is crushing. We haven't seen the players switch who have the potential to crush. I can say with a very straight face that if 100 lower tier BW pros switched, then they would dominate the scene. Of course that does not mean they would crush the other former BW players but that is not inconsistent with the article.
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On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more.
That not what claims the writter of this rag, since his point is not about 3 players, but a good 300 that would dominate hard the sc2 scene.
Looks like this guy doesn't play sc2 (or Bw, or both) if he doesn't understand the differencies between the 2 games, and thinks mechanics alone, that he considers higher in BW even though they are totally different in both games, so you can't put one above the other, would equal (higher) results (and neglecting the strategy in RTS).
The only point I see emerge from the existence of this mess of bold and misinformed statements alone, is how this doesn't deserve a ban from the writter when, if yourself would writte such an baseless slander in sc2 section against sc2, or something similar in BW section against BW, you most probably would get one.
Double standarts TL, why TL accepts from its editorial things they wouldn't from their users, isn't TL's brand to be "community" site?
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On February 11 2012 21:23 Hydroxyl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. That not what claims the writter of this rag, since his point is not about 3 players, but a good 300 that would dominate hard the sc2 scene. Looks like this guy doesn't play sc2 (or Bw, or both) if he doesn't understand the differencies between the 2 games, and thinks mechanics alone, that he considers higher in BW even though they are totally different in both games, so you can't put one above the other, would equal (higher) results (and neglecting the strategy in RT S). The only point I see emerge from the existence of this mess of bold and misinformed statements alone, is how this doesn't deserve a ban from the writter when, if yourself would writte such an baseless slander in sc2 section against sc2, or something similar in BW section against BW, you most probably would get one. Double standarts TL, why TL accepts from its editorial things they wouldn't from their users, isn't TL's brand to be "community" site?
It's because it wasn't slander. It's because the article is right. You probably want to look at the commandments 1. 6. and 9. They're rather relevant.
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On February 11 2012 21:35 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 21:23 Hydroxyl wrote:On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. That not what claims the writter of this rag, since his point is not about 3 players, but a good 300 that would dominate hard the sc2 scene. Looks like this guy doesn't play sc2 (or Bw, or both) if he doesn't understand the differencies between the 2 games, and thinks mechanics alone, that he considers higher in BW even though they are totally different in both games, so you can't put one above the other, would equal (higher) results (and neglecting the strategy in RT S). The only point I see emerge from the existence of this mess of bold and misinformed statements alone, is how this doesn't deserve a ban from the writter when, if yourself would writte such an baseless slander in sc2 section against sc2, or something similar in BW section against BW, you most probably would get one. Double standarts TL, why TL accepts from its editorial things they wouldn't from their users, isn't TL's brand to be "community" site? It's because it wasn't slander. It's because the article is right. You probably want to look at the commandments 1. 6. and 9. They're rather relevant.
Ahah yeah we've seen how right this article is. If you try to mindlessly defend TL for shamelessly advertising their BW fanboyism in a sc2 section, at least don't dig the hole they've set for themselves any further, you're not helping them.
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On February 11 2012 21:22 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate. The point of the OP was that there are a bunch of former and current progamers who have the potential to dominate. He acknowledges that some might not. Let us look at the current top Korean players. Almost everyone is from BW. Now notice that he made a distinction between crushing and dominating. The BW pros are dominating but since they were mostly of more or less the same level in BW nobody is crushing. We haven't seen the players switch who have the potential to crush. I can say with a very straight face that if 100 lower tier BW pros switched, then they would dominate the scene. Of course that does not mean they would crush the other former BW players but that is not inconsistent with the article.
Crushing or not, dominate would mean they'd do better than the current top SC2 players. From what we've seen so far, that is VERY inaccurate and far from reality. HyuN isn't dominating anyone and forGG has shown that a year of laddering hardcore and six months of in-house training wasn't enough for him.
Don't try to downplay the projected numbers in the OP, they're essential to the point he's trying to make. No one is arguing that there are current(at the time) BW pros that will do well and potentially dominate SC2. Heck, forGG and HyuN might do so in time, the OP would still be wrong. The number of players and the time frame are the core of his argument in showing just how much of a farce the competition has been. He even says so himself.
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On February 11 2012 21:47 Hydroxyl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 21:35 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 21:23 Hydroxyl wrote:On February 11 2012 20:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
The only way to prove or disprove anything is to see Flash,Bisu,Jaedong switch to sc2. If they fail to win a GSL from the first try then yeah, BW just gives you good mechanics and nothing more. That not what claims the writter of this rag, since his point is not about 3 players, but a good 300 that would dominate hard the sc2 scene. Looks like this guy doesn't play sc2 (or Bw, or both) if he doesn't understand the differencies between the 2 games, and thinks mechanics alone, that he considers higher in BW even though they are totally different in both games, so you can't put one above the other, would equal (higher) results (and neglecting the strategy in RT S). The only point I see emerge from the existence of this mess of bold and misinformed statements alone, is how this doesn't deserve a ban from the writter when, if yourself would writte such an baseless slander in sc2 section against sc2, or something similar in BW section against BW, you most probably would get one. Double standarts TL, why TL accepts from its editorial things they wouldn't from their users, isn't TL's brand to be "community" site? It's because it wasn't slander. It's because the article is right. You probably want to look at the commandments 1. 6. and 9. They're rather relevant. Ahah yeah we've seen how right this article is. If you try to mindlessly defend TL for shamelessly advertising their BW fanboyism in a sc2 section, at least don't dig the hole they've set for themselves any further, you're not helping them.
This article originally is from the final edits section than tl mods move it to sc2 .
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On February 11 2012 22:00 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 21:22 Squeegy wrote:On February 11 2012 16:19 Azzur wrote:On February 11 2012 16:07 setzer wrote:
That number was highly exaggerated. Before SC2 released I believe there were some 200 progamers, most of whom have either moved on from being a progamer or are not playing SC2. I think we've moved on from that argument as it has no relevant place today. Exaggerated or not, that's what the OP was claiming - SC2 players are "bad" because there are "many" BW progamers that can dominate them. Now, we see "elephant defenders" revising down the original article to claim 10 players when it was clearly stated in the OP that there are "many". If 300 is exaggerated, then lets give a conservative figure of 100 then - I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that 100 BW pros will just switch and dominate. The point of the OP was that there are a bunch of former and current progamers who have the potential to dominate. He acknowledges that some might not. Let us look at the current top Korean players. Almost everyone is from BW. Now notice that he made a distinction between crushing and dominating. The BW pros are dominating but since they were mostly of more or less the same level in BW nobody is crushing. We haven't seen the players switch who have the potential to crush. I can say with a very straight face that if 100 lower tier BW pros switched, then they would dominate the scene. Of course that does not mean they would crush the other former BW players but that is not inconsistent with the article. Crushing or not, dominate would mean they'd do better than the current top SC2 players. From what we've seen so far, that is VERY inaccurate and far from reality. HyuN isn't dominating anyone and forGG has shown that a year of laddering hardcore and six months of in-house training wasn't enough for him. Don't try to downplay the projected numbers in the OP, they're essential to the point he's trying to make. No one is arguing that there are current(at the time) BW pros that will do well and potentially dominate SC2. Heck, forGG and HyuN might do so in time, the OP would still be wrong. The number of players and the time frame are the core of his argument in showing just how much of a farce the competition has been. He even says so himself.
If you read the article again you will find that it would not make sense for him to claim that a lesser BW player than MVP would dominate say MVP. There weren't 300 pros better than MVP. He is arguing they will do better only insofar as the better BW players switch. He is not saying a lesser BW player will come and dominate someone like MVP. What has happened is that lesser BW players have switched and they were of around the same skill level and thus nobody is crushing the competition. I would say ForGG and HyuN have done quite well. When we look at players without BW background, not many have even succeeded in qualifying to code A. Let alone code S. When it comes to the weekly tournaments, well, I don't really put much weight on those.
Of course... they were. But I'm sure you understand it that what he said then was said then and not now. The skill level has risen by quite a bit and that is why many who agree with the article are willingly admitting that it wouldn't be the case anymore that the lower tier players could switch and dominate fast. That is because they are rational. HyuN was still able to qualify even with the higher skill level. I think that is a testament to how good the BW pros were. The article may not have been entirely accurate, I can give you that much, but it still stands. The competition was and is still missing the greatest talent in RTS, the progamers from BW. That is why I still feel like I am watching not the NHL but the Euro Hockey Tour.
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EPT
