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So is the new argument that the only reasons ForGG and Hyun didn't win is because they don care about "lesser tournaments?"
Because MVP being "better" than Hyun doesn't explain why Hyun loses games to code B players.
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On February 01 2012 08:17 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 06:25 ppshchik wrote:
Typical Broodwar Fanboy
*ForGG got into Code S*: OMG ForGG is amazing! Look at TEH insane Broodwar mechanics! GG SC2 NO RE
*ForGG knocked down to Code A*: ForGG was mediocre by the time he retired from Broodwar…
*ForGG wins Code A match*: ForGG is back bitches!!!
Some Broodwar elitism is kind of getting disgusting imo, Broodwar background is an advantage, but not a dictating factor for success in SC2 imo. As long as you work hard you will do well. With work ethics from ex-War3’ers like Kas, Thorzain and Stephano I won’t doubt that they will do equally as well in Broodwar as they are in SC2. Zenio managed to reach A- on ICCUP within a year of playing Broodwar, and he was a war3 player.
Having a BW progamer’s license (much like a college degree) does not magically make you godly in SC2 / your new job, it is the hardwork from the courage tournament that earned you the license, if you failed to bring the hardwork+practice+dedication along with you to SC2 you will fail miserably despite being a former Broodwar pro (Fruitdealer and Tyler are great examples).
I'd say they are different people, I think ForGG has a lot of potential. MVP is still the best player from BW to move across though and he only had a roughly 30-40% win-rate in proleague?The rankings is roughly in order of how good they were in BW at the time of transition, give or take some. The elephant in the room is not ForGG at all and never was neither is Hyun, otherwise MVP would be the elephant as well and he's already playing SC2. I know the OP said 300 progamers or whatever, that's a huge over-exaggeration, the elephant shrinks with every passing year as SC2 evolves more, right now I'd say the elephant is the new gen mid A-teamers, rather than the low A-teamers which was at the time of writing. Neo.G_Soulkey, Bogus, Snow, would all be really good. Also how I wish UpMagic and Savior could play in the GSL, they are semi-vets now and will never be allowed to play, but they would bring something entirely different to the game.
So... being a A-teamer and winning a MSL against Jaedong means nothing anymore now?
Now we have to wait for Soulkey and Bogus --who won nothing yet-- to show us how its done???
Keep on relativising the imbecility that is the very existence of this thread.
From my side I will keep coming in there in a few years from now to LMFAO at all you guys.
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On February 10 2012 14:06 Blennd wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 13:09 lorkac wrote:On February 10 2012 12:26 1Eris1 wrote:On February 10 2012 12:22 lorkac wrote:On February 10 2012 12:12 Kiyo. wrote:On February 10 2012 12:05 Steveling wrote:On February 10 2012 10:43 JeffGoldblum wrote:On February 10 2012 08:44 Steveling wrote:
I just wanna throw into the discussion that many top players are not from bw. MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjackji, Polt and many others. Most of them just have played bw casually cause it's famous in Korea(except mma who decided very quickly to drop bw for sc2 so you can't really say he was a bw player). So it's wrong to say that the best players come from bw.
I have no doubt that these are the players who would reign after the current generation on bw as well, if sc2 wasn't published. Mvp - Woongjin Stars A-teamer Nesta - KT Rolster A-teamer turned coach Genius played for the well known clan NsP MC - MBC Game Hero A-teamer Supernova - KT Rolster B-teamer Fin - Hwaesung Oz and KT Rolster A-teamer Marineking - MBC Game Hero B(?)-teamer Puzzle - WeMade FOX B-teamer MMA - SK Telecom 1 B-teamer Bomber - eSTRO A-teamer Curious - B-teamer Also you know Boxer, Nada, July. Soooooooooo yeeeeeeeeeaaaah you're full of shit. Woah, easy there keyboard warrior. Now how about actually respond to the names I listed and not make a list of your own? xD What? You said many of the top players are not from brood war but that's just wrong. Even from your list, off the top of my head, MMA and DRG are both from brood war teams. DRG even says he was on CJ's b team for a while during TL Attack. According to the article--both lists amount to crap and any low level BW player will roflstomp all of them. If you read the article, praising any present day pro that isn't currently playing BW right now is foolhardy because any random rank 300 BW player can roflstomp the scene in just a few short months. The OP never said it was guaranteed, just that it was possible. And given the time at which the article was written, it was pretty spot on. Nowadays, I think that "300" has shrunk by a fair amount, but no one can precisely say to where exactly. Just read the pages before this one. SC2 is considered a farce simply because Flash, Bisu and Jeadong aren't playing. Maybe Fantasy and Jangbi too, I don't know, the number keeps shrinking the more wrong this article is proven.Here's the thing--the only argument the whole article had going for it was that SC2 is so easy that any random rag tag group of low level BW pros could switch over and dominate. When you start shrinking it down to "when some really high level players switches to SC2 he will be really good at it!" which is akin to saying... "when the best of the best decide to do things similar to what they're already the best at--they won't suck at it" In which case there is no argument. There are always top talented people waiting in the wings to swoop in and take over as best in the business. Whether they wait in the wings because they're stuck in code B (MMA and DRG) or they're waiting in the wings because they're playing another game (Flash, Bisu and Jaedong, supposedly) it all amounts to the same thing in the end. Highly talented individuals coming in every now and then to revolutionize the match-ups or even the game itself--that happens all the time. The whole argument about Elephants is that SC2 is a farce because any random scrub can jump in and dominate. And we're finding that to just not be true. At all. So the argument shifted, and now the numbers are getting smaller and smaller. Hell, the very "scrubs" that the article makes fun of is now the "evidence" of the Elephant in the room. It's been completely turned upside down. Defending the Elephant in the Room argument with statements like "MVP was a BW player!" is the exact opposite of what the article and the argument of the article is all about. If the current players like MVP, MC, Nestea, etc... are no longer scrubs but are valid examples of the supremacy of BW--then there was no need for the article to exists before since it was these same players being bad at BW that prompted the article being written in the first place. If the only argument left is "Those guys who we called scrubs before because they sucked in BW, well they're no longer scrubs and they weren't even that bad in BW" Then supporters of the article have literally 180'd and are now against the article. The bolded part x1000. The article says 300. The elephant is 300. You can't just step in a year later and say "oh yeah by 300 we really meant 10." If you think the top 10 BW players would dominate SC2 if they switched, then YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THE ARTICLE.
THIS in bold.
--> Close the thread. OP is WRONG.
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On February 13 2012 04:06 lorkac wrote:
So is the new argument that the only reasons ForGG and Hyun didn't win is because they don care about "lesser tournaments?"
Because MVP being "better" than Hyun doesn't explain why Hyun loses games to code B players.
This may surprise you greatly but better players do lose to worse players. Particularly small online leagues tend to be very volatile. Go look up the results and you will find quite a few upsets. Snute 3-0 Violet. Monchi 3-1 Check. What do those results really tell us about the skill level of the four players? Nothing at all really.
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On February 12 2012 22:28 ymir233 wrote:
I like how ppl are using ForGG as a reference to a "good BW player" trolololo
ForGG was still horrendously bad (except for his specialty, random TvP timing pushes which eventually died out due to good goon micro) during a time where Flash was still killing every zerg left, right, and center with what is considered now to be a standard build that every Z should know how to counter (e.g.: Soulkey). I don't get how he can be used as any sort of reference, esp. with the level of play nowadays.
Winning a MSL is such a proof of horrendous play...
Still I take part of your argument:
If we agree that any player have their ups & down.
That ANY player can dominate at some point of their carreer and can slump hard at another...
Than why don't BW fans consider that when MVP, Nestea & MMA were BW players they could also have been in a slump as well??
If so,
Players that dominate in BW could slump in SC2.
Players that slumped in BW could dominate in SC2.
BW players == SC2 players
But, most importantly
BW =/= SC2
Everything is relative and with same work ethic, anybody can rise and shine.
And games aren't the same.
Conclusion: Elephant looks more and more like a mouse.
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On February 13 2012 04:47 GreyMasta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 22:28 ymir233 wrote:
I like how ppl are using ForGG as a reference to a "good BW player" trolololo
ForGG was still horrendously bad (except for his specialty, random TvP timing pushes which eventually died out due to good goon micro) during a time where Flash was still killing every zerg left, right, and center with what is considered now to be a standard build that every Z should know how to counter (e.g.: Soulkey). I don't get how he can be used as any sort of reference, esp. with the level of play nowadays. Than why don't BW fans consider that when MVP, Nestea & MMA were BW players they could also have been in a slump as well??.
hahahahah maybe you should look up what those players did in BW before making a dumb equivalence fallacy.
(Hint: You need a peak before you can call something a slump)
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On February 13 2012 04:47 GreyMasta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 22:28 ymir233 wrote:
I like how ppl are using ForGG as a reference to a "good BW player" trolololo
ForGG was still horrendously bad (except for his specialty, random TvP timing pushes which eventually died out due to good goon micro) during a time where Flash was still killing every zerg left, right, and center with what is considered now to be a standard build that every Z should know how to counter (e.g.: Soulkey). I don't get how he can be used as any sort of reference, esp. with the level of play nowadays. Winning a MSL is such a proof of horrendous play... Still I take part of your argument: If we agree that any player have their ups & down. That ANY player can dominate at some point of their carreer and can slump hard at another... Than why don't BW fans consider that when MVP, Nestea & MMA were BW players they could also have been in a slump as well??If so, Players that dominate in BW could slump in SC2. Players that slumped in BW could dominate in SC2. BW players == SC2 players But, most importantly BW =/= SC2 Everything is relative and with same work ethic, anybody can rise and shine. And games aren't the same. Conclusion: Elephant looks more and more like a mouse.
That is of course possible. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in someone's case that they would have ended up being an A-teamer eventually. But what evidence is there? Not any, really.
On February 13 2012 04:25 GreyMasta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 14:06 Blennd wrote:On February 10 2012 13:09 lorkac wrote:On February 10 2012 12:26 1Eris1 wrote:On February 10 2012 12:22 lorkac wrote:On February 10 2012 12:12 Kiyo. wrote:On February 10 2012 12:05 Steveling wrote:On February 10 2012 10:43 JeffGoldblum wrote:On February 10 2012 08:44 Steveling wrote:
I just wanna throw into the discussion that many top players are not from bw. MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjackji, Polt and many others. Most of them just have played bw casually cause it's famous in Korea(except mma who decided very quickly to drop bw for sc2 so you can't really say he was a bw player). So it's wrong to say that the best players come from bw.
I have no doubt that these are the players who would reign after the current generation on bw as well, if sc2 wasn't published. Mvp - Woongjin Stars A-teamer Nesta - KT Rolster A-teamer turned coach Genius played for the well known clan NsP MC - MBC Game Hero A-teamer Supernova - KT Rolster B-teamer Fin - Hwaesung Oz and KT Rolster A-teamer Marineking - MBC Game Hero B(?)-teamer Puzzle - WeMade FOX B-teamer MMA - SK Telecom 1 B-teamer Bomber - eSTRO A-teamer Curious - B-teamer Also you know Boxer, Nada, July. Soooooooooo yeeeeeeeeeaaaah you're full of shit. Woah, easy there keyboard warrior. Now how about actually respond to the names I listed and not make a list of your own? xD What? You said many of the top players are not from brood war but that's just wrong. Even from your list, off the top of my head, MMA and DRG are both from brood war teams. DRG even says he was on CJ's b team for a while during TL Attack. According to the article--both lists amount to crap and any low level BW player will roflstomp all of them. If you read the article, praising any present day pro that isn't currently playing BW right now is foolhardy because any random rank 300 BW player can roflstomp the scene in just a few short months. The OP never said it was guaranteed, just that it was possible. And given the time at which the article was written, it was pretty spot on. Nowadays, I think that "300" has shrunk by a fair amount, but no one can precisely say to where exactly. Just read the pages before this one. SC2 is considered a farce simply because Flash, Bisu and Jeadong aren't playing. Maybe Fantasy and Jangbi too, I don't know, the number keeps shrinking the more wrong this article is proven.Here's the thing--the only argument the whole article had going for it was that SC2 is so easy that any random rag tag group of low level BW pros could switch over and dominate. When you start shrinking it down to "when some really high level players switches to SC2 he will be really good at it!" which is akin to saying... "when the best of the best decide to do things similar to what they're already the best at--they won't suck at it" In which case there is no argument. There are always top talented people waiting in the wings to swoop in and take over as best in the business. Whether they wait in the wings because they're stuck in code B (MMA and DRG) or they're waiting in the wings because they're playing another game (Flash, Bisu and Jaedong, supposedly) it all amounts to the same thing in the end. Highly talented individuals coming in every now and then to revolutionize the match-ups or even the game itself--that happens all the time. The whole argument about Elephants is that SC2 is a farce because any random scrub can jump in and dominate. And we're finding that to just not be true. At all. So the argument shifted, and now the numbers are getting smaller and smaller. Hell, the very "scrubs" that the article makes fun of is now the "evidence" of the Elephant in the room. It's been completely turned upside down. Defending the Elephant in the Room argument with statements like "MVP was a BW player!" is the exact opposite of what the article and the argument of the article is all about. If the current players like MVP, MC, Nestea, etc... are no longer scrubs but are valid examples of the supremacy of BW--then there was no need for the article to exists before since it was these same players being bad at BW that prompted the article being written in the first place. If the only argument left is "Those guys who we called scrubs before because they sucked in BW, well they're no longer scrubs and they weren't even that bad in BW" Then supporters of the article have literally 180'd and are now against the article. The bolded part x1000. The article says 300. The elephant is 300. You can't just step in a year later and say "oh yeah by 300 we really meant 10." If you think the top 10 BW players would dominate SC2 if they switched, then YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THE ARTICLE. THIS in bold. --> Close the thread. OP is WRONG.
If he is wrong you surely haven't shown it.
The elephant is indeed something like what Intrigue said. However, as usual people keep confusing dominate and crush. There is a clear distinction between them. Intrigue did not think that there were 300 players who could crush the competition. Indeed, there are not 300 players who are better than MVP and Intrigue of course knew that. What he argued is that there are 300 players who are on the top of SC2 and that if they switched they could dominate the scene in the same way that the current top players do. Of course if we keep making the number smaller we start getting away from dominating and closer to crushing.
This is all of course obvious to those who know something about BW. As Intrigue does.
Here, since some of you will fail to understand anyway, let me try a grapical representation:
(300) Dominate <----------------------------------------------------------> (Flash) Crush
........................l------------------------l
........................ The top of SC2
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On February 13 2012 05:09 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:47 GreyMasta wrote:On February 12 2012 22:28 ymir233 wrote:
I like how ppl are using ForGG as a reference to a "good BW player" trolololo
ForGG was still horrendously bad (except for his specialty, random TvP timing pushes which eventually died out due to good goon micro) during a time where Flash was still killing every zerg left, right, and center with what is considered now to be a standard build that every Z should know how to counter (e.g.: Soulkey). I don't get how he can be used as any sort of reference, esp. with the level of play nowadays. Winning a MSL is such a proof of horrendous play... Still I take part of your argument: If we agree that any player have their ups & down. That ANY player can dominate at some point of their carreer and can slump hard at another... Than why don't BW fans consider that when MVP, Nestea & MMA were BW players they could also have been in a slump as well??If so, Players that dominate in BW could slump in SC2. Players that slumped in BW could dominate in SC2. BW players == SC2 players But, most importantly BW =/= SC2 Everything is relative and with same work ethic, anybody can rise and shine. And games aren't the same. Conclusion: Elephant looks more and more like a mouse. That is of course possible. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in someone's case that they would have ended up being an A-teamer eventually. But what evidence is there? Not any, really. Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:25 GreyMasta wrote:On February 10 2012 14:06 Blennd wrote:On February 10 2012 13:09 lorkac wrote:On February 10 2012 12:26 1Eris1 wrote:On February 10 2012 12:22 lorkac wrote:On February 10 2012 12:12 Kiyo. wrote:On February 10 2012 12:05 Steveling wrote:On February 10 2012 10:43 JeffGoldblum wrote:On February 10 2012 08:44 Steveling wrote:
I just wanna throw into the discussion that many top players are not from bw. MMA, DRG, Leenock, Jjackji, Polt and many others. Most of them just have played bw casually cause it's famous in Korea(except mma who decided very quickly to drop bw for sc2 so you can't really say he was a bw player). So it's wrong to say that the best players come from bw.
I have no doubt that these are the players who would reign after the current generation on bw as well, if sc2 wasn't published. Mvp - Woongjin Stars A-teamer Nesta - KT Rolster A-teamer turned coach Genius played for the well known clan NsP MC - MBC Game Hero A-teamer Supernova - KT Rolster B-teamer Fin - Hwaesung Oz and KT Rolster A-teamer Marineking - MBC Game Hero B(?)-teamer Puzzle - WeMade FOX B-teamer MMA - SK Telecom 1 B-teamer Bomber - eSTRO A-teamer Curious - B-teamer Also you know Boxer, Nada, July. Soooooooooo yeeeeeeeeeaaaah you're full of shit. Woah, easy there keyboard warrior. Now how about actually respond to the names I listed and not make a list of your own? xD What? You said many of the top players are not from brood war but that's just wrong. Even from your list, off the top of my head, MMA and DRG are both from brood war teams. DRG even says he was on CJ's b team for a while during TL Attack. According to the article--both lists amount to crap and any low level BW player will roflstomp all of them. If you read the article, praising any present day pro that isn't currently playing BW right now is foolhardy because any random rank 300 BW player can roflstomp the scene in just a few short months. The OP never said it was guaranteed, just that it was possible. And given the time at which the article was written, it was pretty spot on. Nowadays, I think that "300" has shrunk by a fair amount, but no one can precisely say to where exactly. Just read the pages before this one. SC2 is considered a farce simply because Flash, Bisu and Jeadong aren't playing. Maybe Fantasy and Jangbi too, I don't know, the number keeps shrinking the more wrong this article is proven.Here's the thing--the only argument the whole article had going for it was that SC2 is so easy that any random rag tag group of low level BW pros could switch over and dominate. When you start shrinking it down to "when some really high level players switches to SC2 he will be really good at it!" which is akin to saying... "when the best of the best decide to do things similar to what they're already the best at--they won't suck at it" In which case there is no argument. There are always top talented people waiting in the wings to swoop in and take over as best in the business. Whether they wait in the wings because they're stuck in code B (MMA and DRG) or they're waiting in the wings because they're playing another game (Flash, Bisu and Jaedong, supposedly) it all amounts to the same thing in the end. Highly talented individuals coming in every now and then to revolutionize the match-ups or even the game itself--that happens all the time. The whole argument about Elephants is that SC2 is a farce because any random scrub can jump in and dominate. And we're finding that to just not be true. At all. So the argument shifted, and now the numbers are getting smaller and smaller. Hell, the very "scrubs" that the article makes fun of is now the "evidence" of the Elephant in the room. It's been completely turned upside down. Defending the Elephant in the Room argument with statements like "MVP was a BW player!" is the exact opposite of what the article and the argument of the article is all about. If the current players like MVP, MC, Nestea, etc... are no longer scrubs but are valid examples of the supremacy of BW--then there was no need for the article to exists before since it was these same players being bad at BW that prompted the article being written in the first place. If the only argument left is "Those guys who we called scrubs before because they sucked in BW, well they're no longer scrubs and they weren't even that bad in BW" Then supporters of the article have literally 180'd and are now against the article. The bolded part x1000. The article says 300. The elephant is 300. You can't just step in a year later and say "oh yeah by 300 we really meant 10." If you think the top 10 BW players would dominate SC2 if they switched, then YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THE ARTICLE. THIS in bold. --> Close the thread. OP is WRONG. If he is wrong you surely haven't shown it. The elephant is indeed something like what Intrigue said. However, as usual people keep confusing dominate and crush. There is a clear distinction between them. Intrigue did not think that there were 300 players who could crush the competition. Indeed, there are not 300 players who are better than MVP and Intrigue of course knew that. What he argued is that there are 300 players who are on the top of SC2 and that if they switched they could dominate the scene in the same way that the current top players do. Of course if we keep making the number smaller we start getting away from dominating and closer to crushing. This is all of course obvious to those who know something about BW. As Intrigue does. Here, since some of you will fail to understand anyway, let me try a grapical representation: (300) Dominate <----------------------------------------------------------> (Flash) Crush ........................l------------------------l ........................ The top of SC2
Except every example shows they arent. I will even grant that 300 or 200 was an exageration and go top 100. The 2 examples we have arent dominating. Heck even at the end of the article he pointed out that picking Flash Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy to do well in sc2 is just cheating. The point of the article was that we arent able to watch "real" sc2 competition because the good players who would show how its done arent playing it. The problem is that they arent "showing us how its done" they are simply fitting into around code A level play after 8 months for Forgg and high code B level play for Hyun with 3 months of practice.
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This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene?
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On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene?
As usual, you read it wrong. The upper line represents the 300 BW players that haven't switched. The line below shows where the current top SC2 players rank on that line. In other words, the current top SC2 players are on the same level as the top 300. But not on the same level as say the top 50 (right-hand side of the line). Point being that Intrigue, knowing the scene, was aware of this. This is why he made a distinction between dominating (doing as well as the current top players, who, quite literally, dominate the scene) and crushing (doing better than the current top players).
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On February 13 2012 06:24 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? As usual, you read it wrong. The upper line represents the 300 BW players that haven't switched. The line below shows where the current top SC2 players rank on that line. In other words, the current top SC2 players are on the same level as the top 300. But not on the same level as say the top 50 (right-hand side of the line). Point being that Intrigue, knowing the scene, was aware of this. This is why he made a distinction between dominating (doing as well as the current top players, who, quite literally, dominate the scene) and crushing (doing better than the current top players).
proof/argumentation for this?
And I mean one that is consistent with the OP, so not the "ex-BWs like MVP/Nestea are dominating SC2"-argument. Because the OP clearly says that those are bad players and I honestly can't think of a context in which you can say that bad players could compete on the same level as the top300 (=good) BW players.
And I also don't take examples. You can not proof something with an example, you can only falsify something with a counterexample. (like you can falsify the "the top300 BW pros will instantly dominate SC2" with the one counterexample "Forgg/Fin was top300 before he switched; He is not dominating")
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On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene?
Actually, he means only BW pro team members.
Which means LiquidTyler is dominating the foreign scene according to him. Not scrubs like naniwa and huk.
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On February 13 2012 06:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 06:24 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? As usual, you read it wrong. The upper line represents the 300 BW players that haven't switched. The line below shows where the current top SC2 players rank on that line. In other words, the current top SC2 players are on the same level as the top 300. But not on the same level as say the top 50 (right-hand side of the line). Point being that Intrigue, knowing the scene, was aware of this. This is why he made a distinction between dominating (doing as well as the current top players, who, quite literally, dominate the scene) and crushing (doing better than the current top players). proof/argumentation for this? And I mean one that is consistent with the OP, so not the "ex-BWs like MVP/Nestea are dominating SC2"-argument. Because the OP clearly says that those are bad players and I honestly can't think of a context in which you can say that bad players could compete on the same level as the top300 (= good) BW players. And I also don't take examples. You can not proof something with an example, you can only falsify something with a counterexample. (like you can falsify the "the top300 BW pros will instantly dominate SC2" with the one counterexample "Forgg/Fin was top300 before he switched; He is not dominating")
They are bad players when compared to players like Flash. And not only to Flash but to players like Sea, players like every good A-teamer. They are, or were, at the same level as the top 300 of BW. That is the entire point. MVP was in that top 300. So was MC. So was MMA. There weren't 300 players better than them. There aren't 300 A-teamers. This is of course very obvious and clear to anyone who knows the context. But I guess it only shows that you don't, in which case you not being able to think of a context, well, that's not something to brag about. And you don't have to take my word for it. You can go search the BW ranking databases for yourself.
You also don't want to put in quotes something you made up yourself. Intrigue talked about potential to dominate. He was not saying everyone will (instantly) dominate. Also, I think the example that there is absence of proof of a bomb explosion in my room is proof of absence. Don't you think?
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On February 13 2012 07:24 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 06:58 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 06:24 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? As usual, you read it wrong. The upper line represents the 300 BW players that haven't switched. The line below shows where the current top SC2 players rank on that line. In other words, the current top SC2 players are on the same level as the top 300. But not on the same level as say the top 50 (right-hand side of the line). Point being that Intrigue, knowing the scene, was aware of this. This is why he made a distinction between dominating (doing as well as the current top players, who, quite literally, dominate the scene) and crushing (doing better than the current top players). proof/argumentation for this? And I mean one that is consistent with the OP, so not the "ex-BWs like MVP/Nestea are dominating SC2"-argument. Because the OP clearly says that those are bad players and I honestly can't think of a context in which you can say that bad players could compete on the same level as the top300 (= good) BW players. And I also don't take examples. You can not proof something with an example, you can only falsify something with a counterexample. (like you can falsify the "the top300 BW pros will instantly dominate SC2" with the one counterexample "Forgg/Fin was top300 before he switched; He is not dominating") They are bad players when compared to players like Flash. And not only to Flash but to players like Sea, players like every good A-teamer. They are, or were, at the same level as the top 300 of BW. That is the entire point. MVP was in that top 300. So was MC. So was MMA. There weren't 300 players better than them. There aren't 300 A-teamers. This is of course very obvious and clear to anyone who knows the context. But I guess it only shows that you don't, in which case you not being able to think of a context, well, that's not something to brag about. And you don't have to take my word for it. You can go search the BW ranking databases for yourself. You also don't want to put in quotes something you made up yourself. Intrigue talked about potential to dominate. He was not saying everyone will (instantly) dominate. Also, I think the example that there is absence of proof of a bomb explosion in my room is proof of absence. Don't you think?
On February 13 2012 07:22 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? Actually, he means only BW pro team members. Which means LiquidTyler is dominating the foreign scene according to him. Not scrubs like naniwa and huk.
Oh, it's you again. Could you, for once, try to reply in an intelligent way to my rebuttals of your arguments? Or is it that you just can't.
Tyler? The player who seems to be facing motivational and other personal issues? You should try harder, I'm not even breaking a sweat!
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On February 13 2012 07:27 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 07:24 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 06:58 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 06:24 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? As usual, you read it wrong. The upper line represents the 300 BW players that haven't switched. The line below shows where the current top SC2 players rank on that line. In other words, the current top SC2 players are on the same level as the top 300. But not on the same level as say the top 50 (right-hand side of the line). Point being that Intrigue, knowing the scene, was aware of this. This is why he made a distinction between dominating (doing as well as the current top players, who, quite literally, dominate the scene) and crushing (doing better than the current top players). proof/argumentation for this? And I mean one that is consistent with the OP, so not the "ex-BWs like MVP/Nestea are dominating SC2"-argument. Because the OP clearly says that those are bad players and I honestly can't think of a context in which you can say that bad players could compete on the same level as the top300 (= good) BW players. And I also don't take examples. You can not proof something with an example, you can only falsify something with a counterexample. (like you can falsify the "the top300 BW pros will instantly dominate SC2" with the one counterexample "Forgg/Fin was top300 before he switched; He is not dominating") They are bad players when compared to players like Flash. And not only to Flash but to players like Sea, players like every good A-teamer. They are, or were, at the same level as the top 300 of BW. That is the entire point. MVP was in that top 300. So was MC. So was MMA. There weren't 300 players better than them. There aren't 300 A-teamers. This is of course very obvious and clear to anyone who knows the context. But I guess it only shows that you don't, in which case you not being able to think of a context, well, that's not something to brag about. And you don't have to take my word for it. You can go search the BW ranking databases for yourself. You also don't want to put in quotes something you made up yourself. Intrigue talked about potential to dominate. He was not saying everyone will (instantly) dominate. Also, I think the example that there is absence of proof of a bomb explosion in my room is proof of absence. Don't you think? Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 07:22 lorkac wrote:On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? Actually, he means only BW pro team members. Which means LiquidTyler is dominating the foreign scene according to him. Not scrubs like naniwa and huk. Oh, it's you again. Could you, for once, try to reply in an intelligent way to my rebuttals of your arguments? Or is it that you just can't. Tyler? The player who seems to be facing motivational and other personal issues? You should try harder, I'm not even breaking a sweat!
I did actually. Several pages ago. I don't like reposting the same argument over and over when it's simply ignored.
Article said top 300 would dominate.
Top 100 is doing as well as low lever sc2 pros.
MVP, MC and Nestea are slowly getting replaced by DRG, MVP and others.
So far, by empiracle proof, there is no relation between skill rank in BW and skill rank in SC2.
Do you have a non-theorycraft rebuttal?
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On February 13 2012 06:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 06:24 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? As usual, you read it wrong. The upper line represents the 300 BW players that haven't switched. The line below shows where the current top SC2 players rank on that line. In other words, the current top SC2 players are on the same level as the top 300. But not on the same level as say the top 50 (right-hand side of the line). Point being that Intrigue, knowing the scene, was aware of this. This is why he made a distinction between dominating (doing as well as the current top players, who, quite literally, dominate the scene) and crushing (doing better than the current top players). proof/argumentation for this? And I mean one that is consistent with the OP, so not the "ex-BWs like MVP/Nestea are dominating SC2"-argument. Because the OP clearly says that those are bad players and I honestly can't think of a context in which you can say that bad players could compete on the same level as the top300 (= good) BW players. And I also don't take examples. You can not proof something with an example, you can only falsify something with a counterexample. (like you can falsify the "the top300 BW pros will instantly dominate SC2" with the one counterexample "Forgg/Fin was top300 before he switched; He is not dominating")
Oh alright, gotcha. Judging by the size of it, there still ought to be a good 50-100 players in that SC2 bracket though, which would mean Incontrol is indeed dominating the NA scene. Someone should tell him quick!
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I would worry less about elephants and more about icebergs, HotS and (possible lack of) Battle.net changes will make or break SC2.
Worry less about whether the BW scene is higher level (it is), and more about whether HotS will make the necessary changes to allow your game to produce its own Flash someday.
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On February 13 2012 07:40 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 07:27 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 07:24 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 06:58 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 06:24 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? As usual, you read it wrong. The upper line represents the 300 BW players that haven't switched. The line below shows where the current top SC2 players rank on that line. In other words, the current top SC2 players are on the same level as the top 300. But not on the same level as say the top 50 (right-hand side of the line). Point being that Intrigue, knowing the scene, was aware of this. This is why he made a distinction between dominating (doing as well as the current top players, who, quite literally, dominate the scene) and crushing (doing better than the current top players). proof/argumentation for this? And I mean one that is consistent with the OP, so not the "ex-BWs like MVP/Nestea are dominating SC2"-argument. Because the OP clearly says that those are bad players and I honestly can't think of a context in which you can say that bad players could compete on the same level as the top300 (= good) BW players. And I also don't take examples. You can not proof something with an example, you can only falsify something with a counterexample. (like you can falsify the "the top300 BW pros will instantly dominate SC2" with the one counterexample "Forgg/Fin was top300 before he switched; He is not dominating") They are bad players when compared to players like Flash. And not only to Flash but to players like Sea, players like every good A-teamer. They are, or were, at the same level as the top 300 of BW. That is the entire point. MVP was in that top 300. So was MC. So was MMA. There weren't 300 players better than them. There aren't 300 A-teamers. This is of course very obvious and clear to anyone who knows the context. But I guess it only shows that you don't, in which case you not being able to think of a context, well, that's not something to brag about. And you don't have to take my word for it. You can go search the BW ranking databases for yourself. You also don't want to put in quotes something you made up yourself. Intrigue talked about potential to dominate. He was not saying everyone will (instantly) dominate. Also, I think the example that there is absence of proof of a bomb explosion in my room is proof of absence. Don't you think? On February 13 2012 07:22 lorkac wrote:On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? Actually, he means only BW pro team members. Which means LiquidTyler is dominating the foreign scene according to him. Not scrubs like naniwa and huk. Oh, it's you again. Could you, for once, try to reply in an intelligent way to my rebuttals of your arguments? Or is it that you just can't. Tyler? The player who seems to be facing motivational and other personal issues? You should try harder, I'm not even breaking a sweat! I did actually. Several pages ago. I don't like reposting the same argument over and over when it's simply ignored. Article said top 300 would dominate. Top 100 is doing as well as low lever sc2 pros. MVP, MC and Nestea are slowly getting replaced by DRG, MVP and others. So far, by empiracle proof, there is no relation between skill rank in BW and skill rank in SC2. Do you have a non-theorycraft rebuttal?
But I did reply to it. Why don't you reply to my rebuttal of it?
On February 13 2012 07:40 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 06:58 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 06:24 Squeegy wrote:On February 13 2012 05:47 Longshank wrote:
This is amazing. So now dominating actually means(if I read your graphics right) being a step behind to top players? Code B/A-ish? And would this mean that Incontrol is in fact dominating the NA scene? As usual, you read it wrong. The upper line represents the 300 BW players that haven't switched. The line below shows where the current top SC2 players rank on that line. In other words, the current top SC2 players are on the same level as the top 300. But not on the same level as say the top 50 (right-hand side of the line). Point being that Intrigue, knowing the scene, was aware of this. This is why he made a distinction between dominating (doing as well as the current top players, who, quite literally, dominate the scene) and crushing (doing better than the current top players). proof/argumentation for this? And I mean one that is consistent with the OP, so not the "ex-BWs like MVP/Nestea are dominating SC2"-argument. Because the OP clearly says that those are bad players and I honestly can't think of a context in which you can say that bad players could compete on the same level as the top300 (= good) BW players. And I also don't take examples. You can not proof something with an example, you can only falsify something with a counterexample. (like you can falsify the "the top300 BW pros will instantly dominate SC2" with the one counterexample "Forgg/Fin was top300 before he switched; He is not dominating") Oh alright, gotcha. Judging by the size of it, there still ought to be a good 50-100 players in that SC2 bracket though, which would mean Incontrol is indeed dominating the NA scene. Someone should tell him quick!
What does Incontrol have to do with Korean BW players. You should try being right for a change. It's more useful than being wrong all the time.
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Not sure why anyone bothers to argue with Squeegy. He's gone far beyond trying to rewrite the OP, and now he's trying to rewrite the english dictionary.
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On February 13 2012 08:09 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Not sure why anyone bothers to argue with Squeegy. He's gone far beyond trying to rewrite the OP, and now he's trying to rewrite the english dictionary.
You can just ask me to elaborate on points you don't understand as I suspect that is the case. It would be the polite thing to do. I don't think I am trying to rewrite anything though!
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EPT
