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On December 06 2011 19:56 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 19:47 bittman wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped  Forgg said in his previous interview (before his match tonight) that he has only been legitimately practicing sc2 for 2 months. He's been practicing an RTS game with 3 races, army control, economic management, build orders, unit compositions, abilities, counters, positioning and mind games for years already. To be honest, he is of the level I expect from a BW pro. The only real reason I think this thread is being bumped is that BW pros of decent ability statistically (not named MVP) haven't done well already. For every MVP and ForGG, there's been a July, Boxer and Nada who have the mind, history and mechanics of a champion but are only middle of the road. Of course, they're past their prime, but still. Also I never got the point of the entire article. Players who are the best at a game similar to another will be the best at it? Well of course. If Moon committed to SC2 he'd be pretty sick too, but it's fairly obvious this is part time to him. The lack of understanding of BW history displayed in the SC2 community is truly shocking. By the time they switched over to SC2, Nada, Boxer, and July were all terrible at BW. None of them were fielded regularly in proleague and they never got far in individual leagues after 2008. They were far better skillwise than they were at their prime, winning starleagues left and right, but everyone else improved so much more. The current best SC2 players in the world also excelled at BW (MVP, MMA, MC, Bomber, Ganzi, Puma were all better at BW than everyone else. Neatea was a coach, so he had a very deep understanding of BW despite being an older guy). The best out of them at BW, probably MVP (he was more successful in 2010 than forGG), was a very mediocre A teamer. It is entirely unsurprising to me that he's also the most consistently highly skilled out of all current SC2 pros. A class and S class BW players have a far deeper understanding of Starcraft than MVP and if they ever do switch over to SC2, the current SC2 pros would all be completely outclassed.
Apologies, as an SC2 fan perhaps I didn't give Brood War the proper wide bearing so as not to tread on toes.
Yes, I do know the three mentioned players were past their prime. In fact, I might have even typed that in my post. The lack of reading of SC2 posts by BW fans is truly shocking =P (j/k)
Yes, most of the good SC2 players were good / decent BW players in their own respect (well not MC though). Most being a keyword of course if I want to wade into the debate heavily, since the article is highly dismissive of rising players and players finding their legs in the variations of mechanics between the two games. It basically says that perhaps the pros that switched could have perhaps been successful at BW, but doubtfully; which is offensive to the rise of new players and improvement of ex-BW players in general.
I never said that I didn't think BW players would and could be the top of SC2. If perhaps you misread / disregarded my entire post as "omganothermisguidedsc2fanwhodoesntgivebwtheproperrespect", then I apologise. Basically you latched onto the fact that I compared ForGG to ex-BW high level players, so I'll retract that and never call them good BW players again =/
Some of the current best SC2 players are also Leenock, Jjakji and Stephano. Can I at least logically have BW fans acknowledge that there are players in SC2 this very narrow "room" cannot define?
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On December 06 2011 20:04 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:00 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:58 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 19:52 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:50 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped He's only been legitimately practicing for 2 months. You know he has been laddering for quite a bit longer right? Team house sure but some people here make it sound like he came out of nowhere and just picked up the game 2months ago. There's a large difference between laddering casually and practicing professionally. Hardly when you play 30 games a day minimum and hold 3 accounts in GM KR before joining a team, but you know keep believing what you want. Source? I'm legitimately curious, I haven't read anything saying he's practicing 30 games a day since he retired from bw. Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance. That's not really evidence of much tbh. Check out his sc2ranks time to time for his 3 accounts. I kept tabs ever since HuK revealed it was fOrGG on the Raptor account. He was mass gaming hard. Also what is your rationale for "Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance." other than the proof-less notion of "well bw players are better than sc2 players because bw is harder" because in the theard about bw teams playing SC2, many regular BW pros made master and no higher...
B/c these pro-gamers already have the mechanics and they more importantly have the discipline and mindset from competing professionally in bw. This is the crux of this thread. Dispute this all you want, but even the less successful bw b-teamers* are some of the most successful sc2 progamers...Oz, Nestea, Puma, MVP, Bomber, MarineKing, Losira, MMA the list goes on. I don't understand why people are so defensive about bw progamers switching and why they undervalue their professional experience as progamers. What makes a player successful isn't the game, its their own experience, skill, and mindset which is why I'd argue any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm in korea with some practice and time to learn sc2.
* many of these players weren't considered good enough in bw to even make regular pro-league appearances
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On December 06 2011 20:05 b0lt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 19:56 chenchen wrote:
The best out of them at BW, probably MVP (he was more successful in 2010 than forGG), People keep repeating this over and over again, and it just isn't true. fOrGG had a better record in proleague (fOrGG was 24-23 in proleague, MVP was 5-9), a better record in individual leagues (13-12 compared to 7-8 (not including offline quals, since fOrGG usually didn't have to do it because he got to ro16 a bunch)), and made it higher in individual leagues (he made it to ro8 twice and was consistent in getting to the ro16 in both OSL and MSL, MVP made it to one ro8 when he was on a hot streak, and then bombed out in the first round next season). The only thing MVP did was manage to somehow win a game vs flash (then lose the next 3).
This. I don't remember how many times I had to repeat that.....
Granted, those games against Flash were GOOD. But that's about it.
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Stephano isn't in the same tier as Leenock and Jjakji, not even close.
We'll see where he really stands when he plays in the Blizzard Cup. He's been training for weeks in Korea for it.
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On December 06 2011 20:13 hasuterrans wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:04 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 20:00 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:58 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 19:52 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:50 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped He's only been legitimately practicing for 2 months. You know he has been laddering for quite a bit longer right? Team house sure but some people here make it sound like he came out of nowhere and just picked up the game 2months ago. There's a large difference between laddering casually and practicing professionally. Hardly when you play 30 games a day minimum and hold 3 accounts in GM KR before joining a team, but you know keep believing what you want. Source? I'm legitimately curious, I haven't read anything saying he's practicing 30 games a day since he retired from bw. Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance. That's not really evidence of much tbh. Check out his sc2ranks time to time for his 3 accounts. I kept tabs ever since HuK revealed it was fOrGG on the Raptor account. He was mass gaming hard. Also what is your rationale for "Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance." other than the proof-less notion of "well bw players are better than sc2 players because bw is harder" because in the theard about bw teams playing SC2, many regular BW pros made master and no higher... B/c these pro-gamers already have the mechanics and they more importantly have the discipline and mindset from competing professionally in bw. This is the crux of this thread. Dispute this all you want, but even the less successful bw b-teamers are some of the most successful sc2 progamers...Oz, Nestea, Puma, MVP, Bomber, MarineKing, Losira, MMA the list goes on. I don't understand why people are so defensive about bw progamers switching and why they undervalue their professional experience as progamers. What makes a player successful isn't the game, its their own experience, skill, and mindset which is why I'd argue any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm in korea with some practice and time to learn sc2.
I don't see how getting GM in Korea is much of an achievement anyway. If you level out at the bottom of GM then you'll look like a scrubb in the gsl. If people are going to say something controversial at least make it something that's worth arguing about.
This was not directed at you btw, I was mostly picking up on a tangent of your and the posts you were responding to.
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On December 06 2011 20:21 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:13 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 20:04 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 20:00 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:58 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 19:52 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:50 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped He's only been legitimately practicing for 2 months. You know he has been laddering for quite a bit longer right? Team house sure but some people here make it sound like he came out of nowhere and just picked up the game 2months ago. There's a large difference between laddering casually and practicing professionally. Hardly when you play 30 games a day minimum and hold 3 accounts in GM KR before joining a team, but you know keep believing what you want. Source? I'm legitimately curious, I haven't read anything saying he's practicing 30 games a day since he retired from bw. Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance. That's not really evidence of much tbh. Check out his sc2ranks time to time for his 3 accounts. I kept tabs ever since HuK revealed it was fOrGG on the Raptor account. He was mass gaming hard. Also what is your rationale for "Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance." other than the proof-less notion of "well bw players are better than sc2 players because bw is harder" because in the theard about bw teams playing SC2, many regular BW pros made master and no higher... B/c these pro-gamers already have the mechanics and they more importantly have the discipline and mindset from competing professionally in bw. This is the crux of this thread. Dispute this all you want, but even the less successful bw b-teamers are some of the most successful sc2 progamers...Oz, Nestea, Puma, MVP, Bomber, MarineKing, Losira, MMA the list goes on. I don't understand why people are so defensive about bw progamers switching and why they undervalue their professional experience as progamers. What makes a player successful isn't the game, its their own experience, skill, and mindset which is why I'd argue any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm in korea with some practice and time to learn sc2. I don't see how getting GM in Korea is much of an achievement anyway. If you level out at the bottom of GM then you'll look like a scrubb in the gsl. If people are going to say something controversial at least make it something that's worth arguing about. This was not directed at you btw, I was mostly picking up on a tangent of your and the posts you were responding to.
I didn't bring up the gm thing, I actually said it wasn't evidence of anything.
edit: i understand it's not directed at me ^^
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By the way, sC played BW in an amateur scale. Just to comment on the OP. And fOrGG's performance up to now IS the evidence OP lacked for a long long time.
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On December 06 2011 20:13 hasuterrans wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:04 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 20:00 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:58 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 19:52 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:50 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped He's only been legitimately practicing for 2 months. You know he has been laddering for quite a bit longer right? Team house sure but some people here make it sound like he came out of nowhere and just picked up the game 2months ago. There's a large difference between laddering casually and practicing professionally. Hardly when you play 30 games a day minimum and hold 3 accounts in GM KR before joining a team, but you know keep believing what you want. Source? I'm legitimately curious, I haven't read anything saying he's practicing 30 games a day since he retired from bw. Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance. That's not really evidence of much tbh. Check out his sc2ranks time to time for his 3 accounts. I kept tabs ever since HuK revealed it was fOrGG on the Raptor account. He was mass gaming hard. Also what is your rationale for "Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance." other than the proof-less notion of "well bw players are better than sc2 players because bw is harder" because in the theard about bw teams playing SC2, many regular BW pros made master and no higher... B/c these pro-gamers already have the mechanics and they more importantly have the discipline and mindset from competing professionally in bw. This is the crux of this thread. Dispute this all you want, but even the less successful bw b-teamers* are some of the most successful sc2 progamers...Oz, Nestea, Puma, MVP, Bomber, MarineKing, Losira, MMA the list goes on. I don't understand why people are so defensive about bw progamers switching and why they undervalue their professional experience as progamers. What makes a player successful isn't the game, its their own experience, skill, and mindset which is why I'd argue any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm in korea with some practice and time to learn sc2. * many of these players weren't considered good enough in bw to even make pro-league appearances
Yet we have Leenock who finally breaks out, beats MVP and becomes a contender for best zerg in the world.
The thing is, what a person did in BW has little effect on how they do in SC2. Take Oz for example, when he started playing SC2 he was bad. It's not like he switched and became god mode protoss, he had to work at SC2 to get to where he is now and if it was because of his BW background then why did it take so long for him to break out? Nestea was a 2v2 player for christ sake, the training regime and mindset for that doesn't even compare to 1v1 in any game.
You still haven't explained why if this statement "any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm" is true, then why BW players who were regularly played in the proleague did not make GM on KR and averaged a 50% win ratio in masters. Check the BW teams ;playing SC2 thread for some examples.
Lastly, it seems you lack a lot of knowledge in the SC2 scene, otherwise you wouldn't have listed half of the progamers you listed as "the most successful sc2 progamers".
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On December 06 2011 20:11 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 19:56 chenchen wrote:On December 06 2011 19:47 bittman wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped Forgg said in his previous interview (before his match tonight) that he has only been legitimately practicing sc2 for 2 months. He's been practicing an RTS game with 3 races, army control, economic management, build orders, unit compositions, abilities, counters, positioning and mind games for years already. To be honest, he is of the level I expect from a BW pro. The only real reason I think this thread is being bumped is that BW pros of decent ability statistically (not named MVP) haven't done well already. For every MVP and ForGG, there's been a July, Boxer and Nada who have the mind, history and mechanics of a champion but are only middle of the road. Of course, they're past their prime, but still. Also I never got the point of the entire article. Players who are the best at a game similar to another will be the best at it? Well of course. If Moon committed to SC2 he'd be pretty sick too, but it's fairly obvious this is part time to him. The lack of understanding of BW history displayed in the SC2 community is truly shocking. By the time they switched over to SC2, Nada, Boxer, and July were all terrible at BW. None of them were fielded regularly in proleague and they never got far in individual leagues after 2008. They were far better skillwise than they were at their prime, winning starleagues left and right, but everyone else improved so much more. The current best SC2 players in the world also excelled at BW (MVP, MMA, MC, Bomber, Ganzi, Puma were all better at BW than everyone else. Neatea was a coach, so he had a very deep understanding of BW despite being an older guy). The best out of them at BW, probably MVP (he was more successful in 2010 than forGG), was a very mediocre A teamer. It is entirely unsurprising to me that he's also the most consistently highly skilled out of all current SC2 pros. A class and S class BW players have a far deeper understanding of Starcraft than MVP and if they ever do switch over to SC2, the current SC2 pros would all be completely outclassed. Apologies, as an SC2 fan perhaps I didn't give Brood War the proper wide bearing so as not to tread on toes. Yes, I do know the three mentioned players were past their prime. In fact, I might have even typed that in my post. The lack of reading of SC2 posts by BW fans is truly shocking =P (j/k) Yes, most of the good SC2 players were good / decent BW players in their own respect (well not MC though). Most being a keyword of course if I want to wade into the debate heavily, since the article is highly dismissive of rising players and players finding their legs in the variations of mechanics between the two games. It basically says that perhaps the pros that switched could have perhaps been successful at BW, but doubtfully; which is offensive to the rise of new players and improvement of ex-BW players in general. I never said that I didn't think BW players would and could be the top of SC2. If perhaps you misread / disregarded my entire post as "omganothermisguidedsc2fanwhodoesntgivebwtheproperrespect", then I apologise. Basically you latched onto the fact that I compared ForGG to ex-BW high level players, so I'll retract that and never call them good BW players again =/ Some of the current best SC2 players are also Leenock, Jjakji and Stephano. Can I at least logically have BW fans acknowledge that there are players in SC2 this very narrow "room" cannot define?
MC, Leenock and Jjakji are formerly of BW, which you seemed to imply they were not.
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On December 06 2011 20:30 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:13 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 20:04 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 20:00 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:58 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 19:52 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:50 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped He's only been legitimately practicing for 2 months. You know he has been laddering for quite a bit longer right? Team house sure but some people here make it sound like he came out of nowhere and just picked up the game 2months ago. There's a large difference between laddering casually and practicing professionally. Hardly when you play 30 games a day minimum and hold 3 accounts in GM KR before joining a team, but you know keep believing what you want. Source? I'm legitimately curious, I haven't read anything saying he's practicing 30 games a day since he retired from bw. Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance. That's not really evidence of much tbh. Check out his sc2ranks time to time for his 3 accounts. I kept tabs ever since HuK revealed it was fOrGG on the Raptor account. He was mass gaming hard. Also what is your rationale for "Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance." other than the proof-less notion of "well bw players are better than sc2 players because bw is harder" because in the theard about bw teams playing SC2, many regular BW pros made master and no higher... B/c these pro-gamers already have the mechanics and they more importantly have the discipline and mindset from competing professionally in bw. This is the crux of this thread. Dispute this all you want, but even the less successful bw b-teamers* are some of the most successful sc2 progamers...Oz, Nestea, Puma, MVP, Bomber, MarineKing, Losira, MMA the list goes on. I don't understand why people are so defensive about bw progamers switching and why they undervalue their professional experience as progamers. What makes a player successful isn't the game, its their own experience, skill, and mindset which is why I'd argue any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm in korea with some practice and time to learn sc2. * many of these players weren't considered good enough in bw to even make pro-league appearances Yet we have Leenock who finally breaks out, beats MVP and becomes a contender for best zerg in the world. The thing is, what a person did in BW has little effect on how they do in SC2. Take Oz for example, when he started playing SC2 he was bad. It's not like he switched and became god mode protoss, he had to work at SC2 to get to where he is now and if it was because of his BW background then why did it take so long for him to break out? Nestea was a 2v2 player for christ sake, the training regime and mindset for that doesn't even compare to 1v1 in any game. You still haven't explained why if this statement "any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm" is true, then why BW players who were regularly played in the proleague did not make GM on KR and averaged a 50% win ratio in masters. Check the BW teams ;playing SC2 thread for some examples. Lastly, it seems you lack a lot of knowledge in the SC2 scene, otherwise you wouldn't have listed half of the progamers you listed as "the most successful sc2 progamers".
I lack knowledge or you lack reading comprehension? I actually said "some of the most successful sc2 progamers..." Besides they are all legitimately good sc2 players and getting masters in 2 weeks when you don't know shit about the game is respectable. I'm not sure why you think people's bw experience is irrelevant. Nestea aka Zergbong was also the zerg coach and team captain for KT Rolster. You should consider being less of a dick, it will make you more credible.
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On December 06 2011 20:34 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:11 bittman wrote:On December 06 2011 19:56 chenchen wrote:On December 06 2011 19:47 bittman wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped Forgg said in his previous interview (before his match tonight) that he has only been legitimately practicing sc2 for 2 months. He's been practicing an RTS game with 3 races, army control, economic management, build orders, unit compositions, abilities, counters, positioning and mind games for years already. To be honest, he is of the level I expect from a BW pro. The only real reason I think this thread is being bumped is that BW pros of decent ability statistically (not named MVP) haven't done well already. For every MVP and ForGG, there's been a July, Boxer and Nada who have the mind, history and mechanics of a champion but are only middle of the road. Of course, they're past their prime, but still. Also I never got the point of the entire article. Players who are the best at a game similar to another will be the best at it? Well of course. If Moon committed to SC2 he'd be pretty sick too, but it's fairly obvious this is part time to him. The lack of understanding of BW history displayed in the SC2 community is truly shocking. By the time they switched over to SC2, Nada, Boxer, and July were all terrible at BW. None of them were fielded regularly in proleague and they never got far in individual leagues after 2008. They were far better skillwise than they were at their prime, winning starleagues left and right, but everyone else improved so much more. The current best SC2 players in the world also excelled at BW (MVP, MMA, MC, Bomber, Ganzi, Puma were all better at BW than everyone else. Neatea was a coach, so he had a very deep understanding of BW despite being an older guy). The best out of them at BW, probably MVP (he was more successful in 2010 than forGG), was a very mediocre A teamer. It is entirely unsurprising to me that he's also the most consistently highly skilled out of all current SC2 pros. A class and S class BW players have a far deeper understanding of Starcraft than MVP and if they ever do switch over to SC2, the current SC2 pros would all be completely outclassed. Apologies, as an SC2 fan perhaps I didn't give Brood War the proper wide bearing so as not to tread on toes. Yes, I do know the three mentioned players were past their prime. In fact, I might have even typed that in my post. The lack of reading of SC2 posts by BW fans is truly shocking =P (j/k) Yes, most of the good SC2 players were good / decent BW players in their own respect (well not MC though). Most being a keyword of course if I want to wade into the debate heavily, since the article is highly dismissive of rising players and players finding their legs in the variations of mechanics between the two games. It basically says that perhaps the pros that switched could have perhaps been successful at BW, but doubtfully; which is offensive to the rise of new players and improvement of ex-BW players in general. I never said that I didn't think BW players would and could be the top of SC2. If perhaps you misread / disregarded my entire post as "omganothermisguidedsc2fanwhodoesntgivebwtheproperrespect", then I apologise. Basically you latched onto the fact that I compared ForGG to ex-BW high level players, so I'll retract that and never call them good BW players again =/ Some of the current best SC2 players are also Leenock, Jjakji and Stephano. Can I at least logically have BW fans acknowledge that there are players in SC2 this very narrow "room" cannot define? MC, Leenock and Jjakji are formerly of BW, which you seemed to imply they were not.
As a BW player, but non expert at its history, I just quote Liquipedia:
"IrOn: To read about IrOn's StarCraft 2 career, see MC. After a more or less unsuccessful career on MBC's B-team, Iron moved on to StarCraft 2 as one of the first active progamers."
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On December 06 2011 20:37 hasuterrans wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:30 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 20:13 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 20:04 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 20:00 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:58 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 19:52 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:50 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped He's only been legitimately practicing for 2 months. You know he has been laddering for quite a bit longer right? Team house sure but some people here make it sound like he came out of nowhere and just picked up the game 2months ago. There's a large difference between laddering casually and practicing professionally. Hardly when you play 30 games a day minimum and hold 3 accounts in GM KR before joining a team, but you know keep believing what you want. Source? I'm legitimately curious, I haven't read anything saying he's practicing 30 games a day since he retired from bw. Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance. That's not really evidence of much tbh. Check out his sc2ranks time to time for his 3 accounts. I kept tabs ever since HuK revealed it was fOrGG on the Raptor account. He was mass gaming hard. Also what is your rationale for "Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance." other than the proof-less notion of "well bw players are better than sc2 players because bw is harder" because in the theard about bw teams playing SC2, many regular BW pros made master and no higher... B/c these pro-gamers already have the mechanics and they more importantly have the discipline and mindset from competing professionally in bw. This is the crux of this thread. Dispute this all you want, but even the less successful bw b-teamers* are some of the most successful sc2 progamers...Oz, Nestea, Puma, MVP, Bomber, MarineKing, Losira, MMA the list goes on. I don't understand why people are so defensive about bw progamers switching and why they undervalue their professional experience as progamers. What makes a player successful isn't the game, its their own experience, skill, and mindset which is why I'd argue any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm in korea with some practice and time to learn sc2. * many of these players weren't considered good enough in bw to even make pro-league appearances Yet we have Leenock who finally breaks out, beats MVP and becomes a contender for best zerg in the world. The thing is, what a person did in BW has little effect on how they do in SC2. Take Oz for example, when he started playing SC2 he was bad. It's not like he switched and became god mode protoss, he had to work at SC2 to get to where he is now and if it was because of his BW background then why did it take so long for him to break out? Nestea was a 2v2 player for christ sake, the training regime and mindset for that doesn't even compare to 1v1 in any game. You still haven't explained why if this statement "any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm" is true, then why BW players who were regularly played in the proleague did not make GM on KR and averaged a 50% win ratio in masters. Check the BW teams ;playing SC2 thread for some examples. Lastly, it seems you lack a lot of knowledge in the SC2 scene, otherwise you wouldn't have listed half of the progamers you listed as "the most successful sc2 progamers". I lack knowledge or you lack reading comprehension? I actually said " some of the most successful sc2 progamers..." Besides they are all legitimately good sc2 players and getting masters in 2 weeks when you don't know shit about the game is respectable. I'm not sure why you think people's bw experience is irrelevant. Nestea aka Zergbong was also the zerg coach and team captain for KT Rolster. You should consider being less of a dick, it will make you more credible.
Because no one has provided any solid proof that says "yes BW experience = better SC2 player". All there is is circumstantial evidence brought on by there being a wealthy amount of SC2 players that played BW in some form, What happened to Max or IntotheRainbow or any other BW amateur or B-teamer that switched and didn't hit the top. You don't talk about them because they don't support your point.
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On December 06 2011 20:34 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:11 bittman wrote:On December 06 2011 19:56 chenchen wrote:On December 06 2011 19:47 bittman wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped Forgg said in his previous interview (before his match tonight) that he has only been legitimately practicing sc2 for 2 months. He's been practicing an RTS game with 3 races, army control, economic management, build orders, unit compositions, abilities, counters, positioning and mind games for years already. To be honest, he is of the level I expect from a BW pro. The only real reason I think this thread is being bumped is that BW pros of decent ability statistically (not named MVP) haven't done well already. For every MVP and ForGG, there's been a July, Boxer and Nada who have the mind, history and mechanics of a champion but are only middle of the road. Of course, they're past their prime, but still. Also I never got the point of the entire article. Players who are the best at a game similar to another will be the best at it? Well of course. If Moon committed to SC2 he'd be pretty sick too, but it's fairly obvious this is part time to him. The lack of understanding of BW history displayed in the SC2 community is truly shocking. By the time they switched over to SC2, Nada, Boxer, and July were all terrible at BW. None of them were fielded regularly in proleague and they never got far in individual leagues after 2008. They were far better skillwise than they were at their prime, winning starleagues left and right, but everyone else improved so much more. The current best SC2 players in the world also excelled at BW (MVP, MMA, MC, Bomber, Ganzi, Puma were all better at BW than everyone else. Neatea was a coach, so he had a very deep understanding of BW despite being an older guy). The best out of them at BW, probably MVP (he was more successful in 2010 than forGG), was a very mediocre A teamer. It is entirely unsurprising to me that he's also the most consistently highly skilled out of all current SC2 pros. A class and S class BW players have a far deeper understanding of Starcraft than MVP and if they ever do switch over to SC2, the current SC2 pros would all be completely outclassed. Apologies, as an SC2 fan perhaps I didn't give Brood War the proper wide bearing so as not to tread on toes. Yes, I do know the three mentioned players were past their prime. In fact, I might have even typed that in my post. The lack of reading of SC2 posts by BW fans is truly shocking =P (j/k) Yes, most of the good SC2 players were good / decent BW players in their own respect (well not MC though). Most being a keyword of course if I want to wade into the debate heavily, since the article is highly dismissive of rising players and players finding their legs in the variations of mechanics between the two games. It basically says that perhaps the pros that switched could have perhaps been successful at BW, but doubtfully; which is offensive to the rise of new players and improvement of ex-BW players in general. I never said that I didn't think BW players would and could be the top of SC2. If perhaps you misread / disregarded my entire post as "omganothermisguidedsc2fanwhodoesntgivebwtheproperrespect", then I apologise. Basically you latched onto the fact that I compared ForGG to ex-BW high level players, so I'll retract that and never call them good BW players again =/ Some of the current best SC2 players are also Leenock, Jjakji and Stephano. Can I at least logically have BW fans acknowledge that there are players in SC2 this very narrow "room" cannot define? MC, Leenock and Jjakji are formerly of BW, which you seemed to imply they were not.
Played BW or were pro-gamers. Cause considering Leenock and jjakji their ages i have a hard time to believe this.
Liquidpedia also doesn't saids anything.
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Who cares? You can theory-craft all you want, but in the end we'll only know when they finally make the switch.
However I am in agreement that when BW PRO's do finally make the switch they will dominate the scene, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible/improbable for others to continue to be successful. The difference in skill that it takes to play the two games is the main reason that so many mediocre BW players are doing so well in SC2.
To assume that Broodwar PRO's will come in and do something that current players aren't capable of is almost laughable. Idra himself stated that this game takes more thinking then actual mechanics to be good at.
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On December 06 2011 20:44 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:37 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 20:30 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 20:13 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 20:04 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 20:00 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:58 ptrpb wrote:On December 06 2011 19:52 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:50 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:[quote] Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped He's only been legitimately practicing for 2 months. You know he has been laddering for quite a bit longer right? Team house sure but some people here make it sound like he came out of nowhere and just picked up the game 2months ago. There's a large difference between laddering casually and practicing professionally. Hardly when you play 30 games a day minimum and hold 3 accounts in GM KR before joining a team, but you know keep believing what you want. Source? I'm legitimately curious, I haven't read anything saying he's practicing 30 games a day since he retired from bw. Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance. That's not really evidence of much tbh. Check out his sc2ranks time to time for his 3 accounts. I kept tabs ever since HuK revealed it was fOrGG on the Raptor account. He was mass gaming hard. Also what is your rationale for "Getting GM in Korea is within the capability of any BW player making regular pro-league appearance." other than the proof-less notion of "well bw players are better than sc2 players because bw is harder" because in the theard about bw teams playing SC2, many regular BW pros made master and no higher... B/c these pro-gamers already have the mechanics and they more importantly have the discipline and mindset from competing professionally in bw. This is the crux of this thread. Dispute this all you want, but even the less successful bw b-teamers* are some of the most successful sc2 progamers...Oz, Nestea, Puma, MVP, Bomber, MarineKing, Losira, MMA the list goes on. I don't understand why people are so defensive about bw progamers switching and why they undervalue their professional experience as progamers. What makes a player successful isn't the game, its their own experience, skill, and mindset which is why I'd argue any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm in korea with some practice and time to learn sc2. * many of these players weren't considered good enough in bw to even make pro-league appearances Yet we have Leenock who finally breaks out, beats MVP and becomes a contender for best zerg in the world. The thing is, what a person did in BW has little effect on how they do in SC2. Take Oz for example, when he started playing SC2 he was bad. It's not like he switched and became god mode protoss, he had to work at SC2 to get to where he is now and if it was because of his BW background then why did it take so long for him to break out? Nestea was a 2v2 player for christ sake, the training regime and mindset for that doesn't even compare to 1v1 in any game. You still haven't explained why if this statement "any bw progamer who is being played regularly in pro-league would have no problem making gm" is true, then why BW players who were regularly played in the proleague did not make GM on KR and averaged a 50% win ratio in masters. Check the BW teams ;playing SC2 thread for some examples. Lastly, it seems you lack a lot of knowledge in the SC2 scene, otherwise you wouldn't have listed half of the progamers you listed as "the most successful sc2 progamers". I lack knowledge or you lack reading comprehension? I actually said " some of the most successful sc2 progamers..." Besides they are all legitimately good sc2 players and getting masters in 2 weeks when you don't know shit about the game is respectable. I'm not sure why you think people's bw experience is irrelevant. Nestea aka Zergbong was also the zerg coach and team captain for KT Rolster. You should consider being less of a dick, it will make you more credible. Because no one has provided any solid proof that says "yes BW experience = better SC2 player". All there is is circumstantial evidence brought on by there being a wealthy amount of SC2 players that played BW in some form, What happened to Max or IntotheRainbow or any other BW amateur or B-teamer that switched and didn't hit the top. You don't talk about them because they don't support your point.
The strongest BW pro to switch (not the most famous) is now widely regarded as the best SC2 player in the world. There are outliers but it isn't a coincidence MVP is the big fish.
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I will still never understand this article, isn't it just common sense that good RTS players will be good at a RTS?
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On December 06 2011 20:55 A Wet Shamwow wrote:
I will still never understand this article, isn't it just common sense that good RTS players will be good at a RTS?
Not for some people.
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Ugh, not this rampant-BW fanboyism article again. If Jaedong and Flash want to switch over to SC2 to try their luck, they're welcome; it's hard to tell how long BW has left in any case. Until then, I won't accept the argument that all SC2 games, training, work and competition are a farce because a couple of Korean kids who have been very successful at a similar game aren't part of the SC2 scene.
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On December 06 2011 20:18 Zzoram wrote:
Stephano isn't in the same tier as Leenock and Jjakji, not even close.
We'll see where he really stands when he plays in the Blizzard Cup. He's been training for weeks in Korea for it.
Hes been there since Sunday i think.
Watching his stream, he is beating players like NSHS-Sage and IMSeed. He nearly beat seed with lings and mass queens @_@
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On December 06 2011 21:28 Za7oX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:18 Zzoram wrote:
Stephano isn't in the same tier as Leenock and Jjakji, not even close.
We'll see where he really stands when he plays in the Blizzard Cup. He's been training for weeks in Korea for it. Hes been there since Sunday i think. Watching his stream, he is beating players like NSHS-Sage and IMSeed. He nearly beat seed with lings and mass queens @_@
On his stream he beat NSHSSage 3-0 IMSeed 3-1 oGsjookTo 1-0
EDIT : fOrGG said jookTo was one of the best in SC2 in an interview
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EPT
